Is Lebron on lakers like mj on wizards?

[Moranis]

Jordan never wrecked teams by throwing his team mates under the bus and wanting to trade half the team.   He wanted to beat people straight up not stack teams like LeBroid.

Is this a serious post?  I can't tell.

I feel like Jordan did throw his teammates under the bus sometimes. Although it was a different media age then without things dissected as much. I do think there is some validity to saying Jordan didn't join with his chief competitors like Lebron did. Jordan would have had to have joined up with Barkley, Ewing, Thomas, Bird or Magic to be similar to Lebron joining with Wade (and to a lesser extent bosh, who has become underrated over time).

To the topic at hand, I have been surprised how much Lebron has showed his age this year. Him breaking his hand feels like it was a turning point in his career.

Jordan had Pippen drafted to his team.  Pippen was a top 5 player in the league (and arguably the 2nd best player a couple of those years).  There was no reason for him to leave, he just had to wait until his main competition got old (which happened earlier than it should have as a result of Bird's back and Magic's disease) and then that happened to coincide with rapid league expansion and a watering down of the league.   If Pippen never ends up in Chicago, Jordan's career is a lot different.  If Jordan played in the modern era, his career is also a lot different (players move a lot more then they did then). 

[celticsclay]

Jordan never wrecked teams by throwing his team mates under the bus and wanting to trade half the team.   He wanted to beat people straight up not stack teams like LeBroid.

Is this a serious post?  I can't tell.

I feel like Jordan did throw his teammates under the bus sometimes. Although it was a different media age then without things dissected as much. I do think there is some validity to saying Jordan didn't join with his chief competitors like Lebron did. Jordan would have had to have joined up with Barkley, Ewing, Thomas, Bird or Magic to be similar to Lebron joining with Wade (and to a lesser extent bosh, who has become underrated over time).

To the topic at hand, I have been surprised how much Lebron has showed his age this year. Him breaking his hand feels like it was a turning point in his career.

Jordan had Pippen drafted to his team.  Pippen was a top 5 player in the league (and arguably the 2nd best player a couple of those years).  There was no reason for him to leave, he just had to wait until his main competition got old (which happened earlier than it should have as a result of Bird's back and Magic's disease) and then that happened to coincide with rapid league expansion and a watering down of the league.   If Pippen never ends up in Chicago, Jordan's career is a lot different.  If Jordan played in the modern era, his career is also a lot different (players move a lot more then they did then).

. You have always been so high on pippin. He made 3 all first teams his entire career. It seems like at best he was a top 5 player for half their titles. I think he also made only one first team alll nba during the first three peat.

[gouki88]

Jordan never wrecked teams by throwing his team mates under the bus and wanting to trade half the team.   He wanted to beat people straight up not stack teams like LeBroid.

Is this a serious post?  I can't tell.

I feel like Jordan did throw his teammates under the bus sometimes. Although it was a different media age then without things dissected as much. I do think there is some validity to saying Jordan didn't join with his chief competitors like Lebron did. Jordan would have had to have joined up with Barkley, Ewing, Thomas, Bird or Magic to be similar to Lebron joining with Wade (and to a lesser extent bosh, who has become underrated over time).

To the topic at hand, I have been surprised how much Lebron has showed his age this year. Him breaking his hand feels like it was a turning point in his career.

Jordan had Pippen drafted to his team.  Pippen was a top 5 player in the league (and arguably the 2nd best player a couple of those years).  There was no reason for him to leave, he just had to wait until his main competition got old (which happened earlier than it should have as a result of Bird's back and Magic's disease) and then that happened to coincide with rapid league expansion and a watering down of the league.   If Pippen never ends up in Chicago, Jordan's career is a lot different.  If Jordan played in the modern era, his career is also a lot different (players move a lot more then they did then).

. You have always been so high on pippin. He made 3 all first teams his entire career. It seems like at best he was a top 5 player for half their titles. I think he also made only one first team alll nba during the first three peat.

Yeah, lol, Pippen was arguably never a top 5 player in the league while the Bulls were winning rings.

1991: MJ, Magic, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Dominique, Ewing and Stockton were all better
1992: MJ, Clyde, Robinson, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Hakeem, and Rodman were all better, with guys like Hardaway and Mullen on his level
1993: MJ, Barkley, Ewing, Dominique, Hakeem, Shaq, Malone and Stockton were all better

I could keep going, but you get the picture. The core group of MJ, pre-Houston Barkley, Karl Malone, pre-injury David Robinson, John Stockton, Shaq, Hakeem and young TD were all superior to Pippen

[Celtics4ever]

Jordan may have bullied his team mates but he never used them as an excuse because he never had to use excuses, like LeBron.    He won, everytime and that created his image.  Jordan had incredible will to win, LeBron has incredible will to team up with people to help him win. 

That doesn't mean he is a great player, but I think the most apt comparison to LeBron time and time again is Wilt.   A physical specimen who dominated his era, with mind boggling stats but fell short in the finals.

[Moranis]

Jordan never wrecked teams by throwing his team mates under the bus and wanting to trade half the team.   He wanted to beat people straight up not stack teams like LeBroid.

Is this a serious post?  I can't tell.

I feel like Jordan did throw his teammates under the bus sometimes. Although it was a different media age then without things dissected as much. I do think there is some validity to saying Jordan didn't join with his chief competitors like Lebron did. Jordan would have had to have joined up with Barkley, Ewing, Thomas, Bird or Magic to be similar to Lebron joining with Wade (and to a lesser extent bosh, who has become underrated over time).

To the topic at hand, I have been surprised how much Lebron has showed his age this year. Him breaking his hand feels like it was a turning point in his career.

Jordan had Pippen drafted to his team.  Pippen was a top 5 player in the league (and arguably the 2nd best player a couple of those years).  There was no reason for him to leave, he just had to wait until his main competition got old (which happened earlier than it should have as a result of Bird's back and Magic's disease) and then that happened to coincide with rapid league expansion and a watering down of the league.   If Pippen never ends up in Chicago, Jordan's career is a lot different.  If Jordan played in the modern era, his career is also a lot different (players move a lot more then they did then).

. You have always been so high on pippin. He made 3 all first teams his entire career. It seems like at best he was a top 5 player for half their titles. I think he also made only one first team alll nba during the first three peat.

The year MJ didn't play at all Pippen was 3rd in MVP voting, he was 1st Team All NBA and 1st Team All Defense.  The Bulls were a 55 win team.  He was 7th the following season and voted 5th the first year of the 2nd 3-Peat (MJ won it that year).  Pippen always had that level of talent, he was just overshadowed by MJ (and rightfully so). 

Of the NBA Top 50 All Time only Pippen, Jordan, Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Stockton, and Shaq (came on a bit later obviously) were arguably in their prime for most of the 90's and Pippen was unquestionably a better player than Ewing and Stockton (overall). 

[celticsclay]

Jordan never wrecked teams by throwing his team mates under the bus and wanting to trade half the team.   He wanted to beat people straight up not stack teams like LeBroid.

Is this a serious post?  I can't tell.

I feel like Jordan did throw his teammates under the bus sometimes. Although it was a different media age then without things dissected as much. I do think there is some validity to saying Jordan didn't join with his chief competitors like Lebron did. Jordan would have had to have joined up with Barkley, Ewing, Thomas, Bird or Magic to be similar to Lebron joining with Wade (and to a lesser extent bosh, who has become underrated over time).

To the topic at hand, I have been surprised how much Lebron has showed his age this year. Him breaking his hand feels like it was a turning point in his career.

Jordan had Pippen drafted to his team.  Pippen was a top 5 player in the league (and arguably the 2nd best player a couple of those years).  There was no reason for him to leave, he just had to wait until his main competition got old (which happened earlier than it should have as a result of Bird's back and Magic's disease) and then that happened to coincide with rapid league expansion and a watering down of the league.   If Pippen never ends up in Chicago, Jordan's career is a lot different.  If Jordan played in the modern era, his career is also a lot different (players move a lot more then they did then).

. You have always been so high on pippin. He made 3 all first teams his entire career. It seems like at best he was a top 5 player for half their titles. I think he also made only one first team alll nba during the first three peat.

Yeah, lol, Pippen was arguably never a top 5 player in the league while the Bulls were winning rings.

1991: MJ, Magic, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Dominique, Ewing and Stockton were all better
1992: MJ, Clyde, Robinson, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Hakeem, and Rodman were all better, with guys like Hardaway and Mullen on his level
1993: MJ, Barkley, Ewing, Dominique, Hakeem, Shaq, Malone and Stockton were all better

I could keep going, but you get the picture. The core group of MJ, pre-Houston Barkley, Karl Malone, pre-injury David Robinson, John Stockton, Shaq, Hakeem and young TD were all superior to Pippen

Yeah this seems right to me also. He was definitely a great player and a perennial all star, but calling him arguably the second best player in the league like moranis did strikes me a disingenuous attempt to discredit Jordan (from a long time Lebron fan)

[Moranis]

Jordan never wrecked teams by throwing his team mates under the bus and wanting to trade half the team.   He wanted to beat people straight up not stack teams like LeBroid.

Is this a serious post?  I can't tell.

I feel like Jordan did throw his teammates under the bus sometimes. Although it was a different media age then without things dissected as much. I do think there is some validity to saying Jordan didn't join with his chief competitors like Lebron did. Jordan would have had to have joined up with Barkley, Ewing, Thomas, Bird or Magic to be similar to Lebron joining with Wade (and to a lesser extent bosh, who has become underrated over time).

To the topic at hand, I have been surprised how much Lebron has showed his age this year. Him breaking his hand feels like it was a turning point in his career.

Jordan had Pippen drafted to his team.  Pippen was a top 5 player in the league (and arguably the 2nd best player a couple of those years).  There was no reason for him to leave, he just had to wait until his main competition got old (which happened earlier than it should have as a result of Bird's back and Magic's disease) and then that happened to coincide with rapid league expansion and a watering down of the league.   If Pippen never ends up in Chicago, Jordan's career is a lot different.  If Jordan played in the modern era, his career is also a lot different (players move a lot more then they did then).

. You have always been so high on pippin. He made 3 all first teams his entire career. It seems like at best he was a top 5 player for half their titles. I think he also made only one first team alll nba during the first three peat.

Yeah, lol, Pippen was arguably never a top 5 player in the league while the Bulls were winning rings.

1991: MJ, Magic, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Dominique, Ewing and Stockton were all better
1992: MJ, Clyde, Robinson, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Hakeem, and Rodman were all better, with guys like Hardaway and Mullen on his level
1993: MJ, Barkley, Ewing, Dominique, Hakeem, Shaq, Malone and Stockton were all better

I could keep going, but you get the picture. The core group of MJ, pre-Houston Barkley, Karl Malone, pre-injury David Robinson, John Stockton, Shaq, Hakeem and young TD were all superior to Pippen

Yeah this seems right to me also. He was definitely a great player and a perennial all star, but calling him arguably the second best player in the league like moranis did strikes me a disingenuous attempt to discredit Jordan (from a long time Lebron fan)

2nd might have been a bit of an exaggeration, but 5th was not.  He showed that in 94 when he was leading a 55 win team and finished 3rd in MVP voting while appearing on both the 1st Team All League and the 1st Team All Defense. 

and I'm sorry, Pippen in his prime was absolutely better than Stockton, Ewing, Rodman, and Wilkins in every season of Pippen's prime.  It wasn't even that close in my mind.  He was on par with Robinson (different positions so harder to really gauge impact).  Drexler is an interesting discussion as well.  In 92, he finished 2nd in MVP voting, great season when he averaged 25 p, 6.6 r, 6.7 a, 1.8 s, 0.9 b, 3.2 t, 3.0 f and was the #1 option on a team appearing in the NBA Finals.  His advanced metrics show a PER of 23.6, BPM 8.4, VORP 7.2, 117 ORTG, 103 DRTG, and WS of 12.8.  Pippen that same season averaged 21 p, 7.7 r, 7.0 a, 1.9 s, 1.1 b, 3.1 t, 3.0 f as the #2 option on a title winner.  His advance metrics were a PER of 21.5, BPM 6.5, VORP 6.8, 114 ORTG, 102 DRTG, and WS of 12.7.  In other words a pretty darn similar player, who probably bumps up the counting stats and improves the advanced metrics if he was the #1 option as opposed to the #2 (you know since that is basically what happened when Jordan took a year off 2 seasons later). 

Pippen was a top 5 player for basically most of the 90's and was clearly the 2nd best wing (behind Jordan).  It has nothing to do with discrediting Jordan, it is just reality. 

[Who]

Of the NBA Top 50 All Time only Pippen, Jordan, Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Stockton, and Shaq (came on a bit later obviously) were arguably in their prime for most of the 90's and Pippen was unquestionably a better player than Ewing and Stockton (overall). 

At first blush, I completely agree with this. Pippen was a more well rounded player who could impact the game in far more ways than either Ewing or Stockton.

Then I start to wonder ... How would Patrick Ewing have done on the Bulls in Pippen's place. Ewing and Jordan as a dynamic duo like pre-Shaq and Kobe. They would have owned the league.

A dominant inside-outside punch on offense and defense. Horace Grant as the glue guy in the paint alongside Ewing. The Bulls would have destroyed every team in the league in the paint. Jordan would have been awesome (on both ends of the court) playing alongside a post presence like Ewing.

Fun to think about. Now I am not so sure.

[PhoSita]

It's probably closer to the first year Kareem was on the Lakers when they went 40-42 despite Kareem having a great season.  Obviously LeBron is further along in his career and isn't on the kind of level Kareem was at that point.  But I don't think Bron is anywhere near where MJ was when he was on the Wiz.

[Moranis]

Of the NBA Top 50 All Time only Pippen, Jordan, Ewing, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Stockton, and Shaq (came on a bit later obviously) were arguably in their prime for most of the 90's and Pippen was unquestionably a better player than Ewing and Stockton (overall). 

At first blush, I completely agree with this. Pippen was a more well rounded player who could impact the game in far more ways than either Ewing or Stockton.

Then I start to wonder ... How would Patrick Ewing have done on the Bulls in Pippen's place. Ewing and Jordan as a dynamic duo like pre-Shaq and Kobe. They would have owned the league.

A dominant inside-outside punch on offense and defense. Horace Grant as the glue guy in the paint alongside Ewing. The Bulls would have destroyed every team in the league in the paint. Jordan would have been awesome (on both ends of the court) playing alongside a post presence like Ewing.

Fun to think about. Now I am not so sure.

Oh pretty much any great player would have been better next to Jordan.  What I always found interesting to think about is that Pippen was about the only player in the league that could have taken on Jordan in man coverage for most of the game and done ok (obviously no one is stopping Jordan) yet Jordan never had to be defended by Pippen when it mattered.  What if Pippen had ended up on the Pacers or Knicks, how much different might the Eastern Conference have been in the 90's?

[Walker Wiggle]

Interesting question and thread. In my opinion there is no comparing the two superstars in terms of their competitiveness and attitude towards winning. Jordan was basically a competitive sociopath in terms of not just basketball, but everything in his life. He was famously cruel and made teammates cry in practice. He was also the first ever mega-star in terms of using his sports celebrity to make him a media celebrity.

Yet no one ever said Jordan wasn't fully committed to winning. Quite the contrary, he was ruthlessly focused on winning. Lebron is a great competitor, but he's not wired like that. I believe his going to LA was to a large extent motivated by business and media considerations. He's not the only one; Durant has lots of side businesses and other interests. It's just another time.

I do agree that this could end terribly in LA. Bill Simmons recently had a podcast where this was the focus for the first 30 minutes or so. But it won't be because Lebron becomes a shadow of what he was in his prime, a la Jordan with the Wizards. It will be because the West is hyper competitive, the Lakers aren't a well-run franchise, their coach is young and liable to get fired any minute, the spirit in their locker room is broken, and if they strike out this offseason have few chances to improve their team.

As for Lebron, I fully expect him to play at a high level for years. This is not the 90s. The "nutrition" is different now. Let's put it this way: Jordan was a freak athlete, but he wasn't an alien who miraculously went into the playoffs with more muscle than he had to start the season after leading the entire league in minutes. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Not sure how healthy he'll be in his 50s, but Lebron the athlete will be fine.

[bdm860]

Jordan never wrecked teams by throwing his team mates under the bus and wanting to trade half the team.   He wanted to beat people straight up not stack teams like LeBroid.

Is this a serious post?  I can't tell.

I feel like Jordan did throw his teammates under the bus sometimes. Although it was a different media age then without things dissected as much. I do think there is some validity to saying Jordan didn't join with his chief competitors like Lebron did. Jordan would have had to have joined up with Barkley, Ewing, Thomas, Bird or Magic to be similar to Lebron joining with Wade (and to a lesser extent bosh, who has become underrated over time).

To the topic at hand, I have been surprised how much Lebron has showed his age this year. Him breaking his hand feels like it was a turning point in his career.

Jordan had Pippen drafted to his team.  Pippen was a top 5 player in the league (and arguably the 2nd best player a couple of those years).  There was no reason for him to leave, he just had to wait until his main competition got old (which happened earlier than it should have as a result of Bird's back and Magic's disease) and then that happened to coincide with rapid league expansion and a watering down of the league.   If Pippen never ends up in Chicago, Jordan's career is a lot different.  If Jordan played in the modern era, his career is also a lot different (players move a lot more then they did then).

. You have always been so high on pippin. He made 3 all first teams his entire career. It seems like at best he was a top 5 player for half their titles. I think he also made only one first team alll nba during the first three peat.

Yeah, lol, Pippen was arguably never a top 5 player in the league while the Bulls were winning rings.

1991: MJ, Magic, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Dominique, Ewing and Stockton were all better
1992: MJ, Clyde, Robinson, Malone, Stockton, Ewing, Hakeem, and Rodman were all better, with guys like Hardaway and Mullen on his level
1993: MJ, Barkley, Ewing, Dominique, Hakeem, Shaq, Malone and Stockton were all better

I could keep going, but you get the picture. The core group of MJ, pre-Houston Barkley, Karl Malone, pre-injury David Robinson, John Stockton, Shaq, Hakeem and young TD were all superior to Pippen

Yeah this seems right to me also. He was definitely a great player and a perennial all star, but calling him arguably the second best player in the league like moranis did strikes me a disingenuous attempt to discredit Jordan (from a long time Lebron fan)

2nd might have been a bit of an exaggeration, but 5th was not.  He showed that in 94 when he was leading a 55 win team and finished 3rd in MVP voting while appearing on both the 1st Team All League and the 1st Team All Defense. 

and I'm sorry, Pippen in his prime was absolutely better than Stockton, Ewing, Rodman, and Wilkins in every season of Pippen's prime.  It wasn't even that close in my mind.  He was on par with Robinson (different positions so harder to really gauge impact).  Drexler is an interesting discussion as well.  In 92, he finished 2nd in MVP voting, great season when he averaged 25 p, 6.6 r, 6.7 a, 1.8 s, 0.9 b, 3.2 t, 3.0 f and was the #1 option on a team appearing in the NBA Finals.  His advanced metrics show a PER of 23.6, BPM 8.4, VORP 7.2, 117 ORTG, 103 DRTG, and WS of 12.8.  Pippen that same season averaged 21 p, 7.7 r, 7.0 a, 1.9 s, 1.1 b, 3.1 t, 3.0 f as the #2 option on a title winner.  His advance metrics were a PER of 21.5, BPM 6.5, VORP 6.8, 114 ORTG, 102 DRTG, and WS of 12.7.  In other words a pretty darn similar player, who probably bumps up the counting stats and improves the advanced metrics if he was the #1 option as opposed to the #2 (you know since that is basically what happened when Jordan took a year off 2 seasons later). 

Pippen was a top 5 player for basically most of the 90's and was clearly the 2nd best wing (behind Jordan).  It has nothing to do with discrediting Jordan, it is just reality.

I have a good memory for odd things.  Talking about it now, we're all subject to the flaws of our own memories, revisionist history and what not, as well as trying to condense and quantify players' 10+ year careers into a single ranking (what if Pippen was #15 in '91, #2 in '94, and #7 in '98, etc. how do we possibly quantify that?).  And it's not like we have the constant ESPN, SI, etc. articles ranking the top X players every year to reference the opinions of the "experts" from back then that we do now.

So back to my weird memory. In his book Loose Balls (written in 2000), Jayson Williams wrote:

A few years ago the two best players in the league were Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen.  If Michael Jordan was a 100 on the scale of basketball greatness, Scottie was about a 50.  That's how great Michael Jordan was.

Minor line, but there's a source (who actually played in the league for all of the Bulls championships) claiming Pippen was the 2nd best player in the league at some point during that time.

And another one, from Bill Walton in the 2/24/92 issue of SI:

"You think about it, Scottie Pippen might just be the second-best all-around player in the league," Bill Walton, the broadcaster and former NBA All-Star, says. "Who's better, outside of Michael? Who does more things? Karl Malone, maybe. Maybe not."

This is not the crazy take some of you are making it out to be.

[johnnygreen]

I don’t know about this comparison, as it seems like a stretch. A 34 year old MJ, was on his way to completing the second Bulls 3-peat. He then retires, and comes back at 38 years old to play for two more seasons in Washington. I know LeBron has more mileage but I would think the toll a player’s body would take at the age of 38, after missing 3 seasons, would be dramatic.

[RJ87]

It probably matters a great deal what the Lakers do this summer as I do think Lebron has more in the tank than Jordan did, but Lebron clearly needs some help to really be truly effective.

Agreed. Lebron can't drag a team to a the playoffs by himself anymore - certainly not in the Western Conference - but he has far more left in the tank than Jordan did with the Wizards.

[Donoghus]

I'm not sure Pippen will ever get quite a fair shake due to his playing in the shadow of Jordan for the bulk of his prime.   He was good.  Really, really good.

Let's not forget this guy was a part of probably the greatest basketball team ever assembled ('92 Dream Team) and the youngest non-collegian on the team.