Irving isn't a franchise level player (A+ if you are grading). He also isn't an A level player and might not even be an A- level player given his inconsistency. And sure all players have bad shooting games, but when you don't pass well, don't rebound well, don't get to the line, turn the ball over, and are at best a bad defender, you aren't what this board claims.
It's this paragraph, combined with your other thoughts, that people disagree with.
He does pass well. As I pointed out earlier, only a few players average as many points and assists as Irving per 36.
He doesn't need to rebound well.
He gets to the line a reasonable amount. If he was a worse shooter, that would be a bigger issue, but his scoring efficiency is still pretty high level. For his career, he has a similar free throw rate as Curry.
He doesn't turn the ball over that much. In fact, his turnover rate is one of the best in the league for a player of his usage and assist numbers.
He is not "at best" a bad defender. That's a false narrative. At best he is an above average defender that has the ability to make timely defensive plays. At worst, he is a bad defender.
He is an A- player that has played like an superstar in key moments in the finals. Inconsistency is a slight concern, but not as much as you are making it. These next couple of years should be the years when he comes into his own as the primary ball-handler. If he is the same player at the end of those years, I would be slightly disappointed, but he'd still be worth the max and could still lead a team to the finals.
If you don't like his personality, that's fine. If you are concerned about injuries, that's understandable. But the way you slice up his game and color the hue to make it as negative as possible is what is questionable.
His career AST% is 30.1, as PG's go that isn't good. It isn't terrible (which I never claimed), but it certainly isn't good.
Irving for his career averages 1.263 points per shot. Since you compared him to Curry, Curry scores 1.373 points per shot (Lebron is 1.387, Durant is 1.445). He isn't nearly as an efficient scorer as this board makes it seems.
Irving is a terrible defender, even when he tries here or there, he is still bad on the whole. The defensive metric shows this to be the case. Whether it is his negative DBPM every year in his career or his career DRTG of 109, he is just a bad defender.
At the end of the day, there is a reason the Celtics were basically the same level of team when Irving was hurt or the prior year when he wasn't even on the team. There is a reason the Cavs made it back to the Finals without him. He just isn't as good as this board wants to believe and he doesn't contribute to winning like we all hope he would.
Bahaha, this is laughable reasoning at the end. Pure nonsense
I don’t know. I usually disagree with most of what Moranis believes, but I think he might be spot on with that last paragraph. I agree with most of what his points in this entire thread. His last paragraph might seem like an oversimplification but those are the facts and it really might be that simple.
All of this is narrative-based. Maybe the Cavs made it to the finals because they have the best player in the world. They came closest to winning it (and did win one) with Kyrie.
Maybe the Cs' offense would jumped another notch with Irving in the playoffs - that is where superstars are made. Maybe CBS' system raises the floor of the team, but the superstars raise the ceiling.
I realize, and figured that you would bring up his PPP. In fairness, last year (in his first under a good NBA coach), he had his highest TS% of his career. In fact, the way his stats are trending through his age 25 season are very similar to how Curry's did. There's reason to think that may even climb more with Hayward getting him good looks and Tatum and Brown developing to pull defenders away.
Irving's career stats are a bit shadowy, because everyone knows the Cavs threw entire months out the window on the defensive side of the ball. Even their "stoppers" weren't trying. Last year, under a real coach, he had the best numbers of his career. He fit within the system and made key defensive plays. I'd recognize that he could definitely be better, but he wasn't a bad defender last year. That was reputation-based. His defensive numbers are similar to Thompson and Curry. I'd like to see more from him, but I have confidence that he will lock-in in key situations.
I get that his assist numbers weren't that high, but for a player that scores as much as he does, his assist numbers were elite (only Harden, James, and Westbrook were better). He is a scorer more than a point guard. I saw him setting up Brown and Tatum and Rozier and Horford and Baynes quite a bit last year, but his best skill is scoring. I don't mind this. The modern NBA is about shot creators, not just point quarterbacks. Irving is elite at that and has area to improve.
