Crowder and Brown have better value than Hayward

[mmmmm]

And even if we clear Crowder, Bradley, Olynyk, and a couple of others, we probably still don't have enough to sign Thomas nest season.

Um... yes, we will.   We don't need cap space to sign Thomas next year.  We will have his Bird Rights, which enable the team to sign him even if they are or will go over the salary cap.

[mmmmm]

We now have Hayward and Horford on Max contracts.  Neither is really that good. 

Regarding Hayward, what does "that good" mean?

He's an all-star who has been the best player on a 50+ win team. He plays good defense, and his offense is at a top-15 level, easily. He could be the headliner for half the team's in the NBA.

I disagree with the notion that Hayward was the best player on the Jazz. Gobert was a lot more important.

And with not ''that good'' we mean that Hayward is not in the elite club. He's obviously less good than superstars like James, Durant or Leonard. But also a lesser player than Antetokounmpo, George or even Butler. He's just an inch below that group, but a little better than Anthony or Porter.

So ... if a player is not at the level of Lebron James, Kevin Durant or Kawhi Leonard .... then he's "not that good"?

Perhaps what we have here is just a completely different notion of what words mean in the English language?   Not to mention a completely different notion about how NBA economics work.

[loco_91]

I think Hayward is well worth the max, but I agree that Crowder is even more valuable.

On the open market I believe that each player's value, for the upcoming year, would be something like:

Crowder: $20m ($13m above his $7m/yr salary)
Hayward: $40m ($10m above his $30m/yr salary)
Brown: $10m ($5m above his $5m/yr salary)

Note that this understates Brown's true value since he will improve over the next several years, I'm just trying to put a number on each player's production for next year.

If we have to dump Crowder to make room for Hayward, this will be a net negative move.

[footey]

I think Hayward is well worth the max, but I agree that Crowder is even more valuable.

On the open market I believe that each player's value, for the upcoming year, would be something like:

Crowder: $20m ($13m above his $7m/yr salary)
Hayward: $40m ($10m above his $30m/yr salary)
Brown: $10m ($5m above his $5m/yr salary)

Note that this understates Brown's true value since he will improve over the next several years, I'm just trying to put a number on each player's production for next year.

If we have to dump Crowder to make room for Hayward, this will be a net negative move.

"Value" is best measured by trade value. That is why the proposition is a bit absurd.

[Rosco917]

Ok, I'm saying it like it is. No reason to be thrilled with the signing of Hayward. He's just barely worth a max contract. And don't tell me that there are inferior players who get paid the same, because I understand that. Those are bad contracts. I would call the upcoming contract of Hayward neutral at best.

To me the build of a championship team consists of collecting good contracts on players who fit together in terms of production (playing level/specialties), position, age/experience and playing style.

We have a lot of good contracts. Crowder and Brown are examples of that (I won't even mention Tatum). Actually if you look at the production they give you in comparison to their salary they are in the top of the league. Only underpaid stars like Butler, George, Leonard (and Wiggins on his rookie contract) or superstars like Durant and James are definitely more valuable.

Although Hayward is clearly a better player (right now) than Crowder or Brown I don't believe he can give you the same value per dollar like them. The difference in salary is just too big. 20+ million is a lot of money to sacrifice for this upgrade. I really fear that it will chain our options to make the necessary improvement in the front court to being a real contender.

Simply stated in a vacuum in which order would you pick these players if you wanted to build a team:

Gordon Hayward 30 million a year
Jae Crowder 7 million a year
Jaylen Brown 5 million a year

Plus the fact that if you stack them end to end Crowder and Brown are much taller.

Sorry, I don't agree with your premise. You're ignoring the concept of the chemistry of the five players that you have on the floor at the same time. Gordon Hayward is a guy you can give the ball to and he'll find you a good shot. Taking huge pressure off of the shoulder of IT and company, and dividing the defensive pressure an opponent can generate.

Crowder never will be that guy, and Brown is at least 2 years away, if he's lucky.

[Vermont Green]

And even if we clear Crowder, Bradley, Olynyk, and a couple of others, we probably still don't have enough to sign Thomas nest season.

Um... yes, we will.   We don't need cap space to sign Thomas next year.  We will have his Bird Rights, which enable the team to sign him even if they are or will go over the salary cap.

Yes, forgot to add "without going deep into luxury tax territory", which then constrains us in other areas.

[tyrone biggums]

Ok, I'm saying it like it is. No reason to be thrilled with the signing of Hayward. He's just barely worth a max contract. And don't tell me that there are inferior players who get paid the same, because I understand that. Those are bad contracts. I would call the upcoming contract of Hayward neutral at best.

To me the build of a championship team consists of collecting good contracts on players who fit together in terms of production (playing level/specialties), position, age/experience and playing style.

We have a lot of good contracts. Crowder and Brown are examples of that (I won't even mention Tatum). Actually if you look at the production they give you in comparison to their salary they are in the top of the league. Only underpaid stars like Butler, George, Leonard (and Wiggins on his rookie contract) or superstars like Durant and James are definitely more valuable.

Although Hayward is clearly a better player (right now) than Crowder or Brown I don't believe he can give you the same value per dollar like them. The difference in salary is just too big. 20+ million is a lot of money to sacrifice for this upgrade. I really fear that it will chain our options to make the necessary improvement in the front court to being a real contender.

Simply stated in a vacuum in which order would you pick these players if you wanted to build a team:

Gordon Hayward 30 million a year
Jae Crowder 7 million a year
Jaylen Brown 5 million a year

You pick Hayward. He's the star. Enough with the build a hustle team of role players stuff.

[mmmmm]

And even if we clear Crowder, Bradley, Olynyk, and a couple of others, we probably still don't have enough to sign Thomas nest season.

Um... yes, we will.   We don't need cap space to sign Thomas next year.  We will have his Bird Rights, which enable the team to sign him even if they are or will go over the salary cap.

Yes, forgot to add "without going deep into luxury tax territory", which then constrains us in other areas.

Well, how "deep" depends on whether we also sign Smart and/or Bradley.   If we kept both or even just one on a large contract, then yes, we will immediately go deep into the luxury tax.

If, however, we let go of both Marcus and Avery then no, we should not be too deep into the luxury tax.  We should be just a little above it.   And because Horford's contract would expire two years after Isaiah's started, we should only be above the luxury tax threshold for 2 seasons before falling back down below it.

[Vermont Green]

And even if we clear Crowder, Bradley, Olynyk, and a couple of others, we probably still don't have enough to sign Thomas nest season.

Um... yes, we will.   We don't need cap space to sign Thomas next year.  We will have his Bird Rights, which enable the team to sign him even if they are or will go over the salary cap.

Yes, forgot to add "without going deep into luxury tax territory", which then constrains us in other areas.

Well, how "deep" depends on whether we also sign Smart and/or Bradley.   If we kept both or even just one on a large contract, then yes, we will immediately go deep into the luxury tax.

If, however, we let go of both Marcus and Avery then no, we should not be too deep into the luxury tax.  We should be just a little above it.   And because Horford's contract would expire two years after Isaiah's started, we should only be above the luxury tax threshold for 2 seasons before falling back down below it.

So that is my point exactly.  Signing Hayward has an opportunity cost.  In your scenario, the cost is Smart and Avery Bradley, just to keep us going only a little into the luxury tax (which I will take your word for but with 3 max contracts, it seems we will be pretty deep into luxury).

I would rather trade Horford than lose both Smart and Bradley.