Doc Rivers laments Durant joining Warriors

[celticsclay]

Doc was spot on. From a competitive point of view, what Durant did was embarrassing. The same can be said for the Miami Heat, when LeBron and Bosh joined Wade. To me, free agents forming super teams like this for the sole purpose of winning the title, just cheapens the accomplishment of the championship. In no way should the 2008 Celtics be talked about in the same story. Danny had to actually trade valuable picks and players to get Allen and Garnett. BTW, Allen and Garnett were past their primes when they were traded to the Celtics, where as Durant, LeBron, Bosh and Wade were in the primes of their careers when they joined with their super teams.

Both Miami and Golden State had to make a lot of moves to free up cap space, including letting valuable players go (and some draft picks).  Something feels a little better about making a real trade, but it isn't like those teams just signed these players to minimum contracts and didn't have to make sacrifices. 

I mean obviously it was worth it for the Warriors to sacrifice Barnes, Bogut, Barbosa, Speights, and Ezeli to sign Durant, but that was 2 starters and a number of key bench contributors to free up enough room to sign him.  He didn't just walk through the door and sign with the same team because that just didn't happen (the same core, sure, but not the same team). 

Miami had planned for that off season for three years.  They gave up a lot of victories along the way to make sure they had enough room for 3 max level players and then still had to make even more salary dumping trades that summer (like Cook + a 1st for a 2nd rounder, Beasley for a couple of 2nd rounders, etc.).  Even then they still had to do sign and trades to make it work giving up multiple 1st round picks in that process.

The Celtics actually gave up real assets though. None of the players you mentioned for the Warriors or Heat really had great value. For the Warriors you are talking about a bunch of garbage and Barnes (which is what any team does when they do any upgrade let the old player they had at the same position go).

Bogut is ok, but he is too old now and can't stay healthy. He was bought out by the team they traded him for during the season. No team is going to count him as a starter moving forward.

Speights is at best a backup and is a dime a dozen.

Ezeli is damaged goods and who knows if he will ever play again. He did not play at all last season.

Barbosa is 34 and played 14 minutes a game on a rebuilding team.
This really was 100% about a cap spike loophole and nothing else. I think half those players would have been gone anyways even if they didn't sign Durant (Barnes would have obviously stayed, it is unclear what they would have done with Bogut).

The Heat is a little bit similar because I think they gave up the 5th pick as part of the Lebron Trade. However, Beasely was already seen as a bit of a bust (and a knuckle head) when he was trade so it really wasn't a big sacrifice to give up him and they immedately signed a bunch of vets to offset anything they had lost including Mike Miller.

So you compare that to what the Celtics gave up in their trades Delonte West (who was a legit combo guard before his issues derailed his career) the 5th overall pick, Szerbicak (a legit starter or high end bench player at that point in his career, different level than Speights or Barbosa). Then in the Timberwolves trade they gave up Jefferson (then viewed as a future all star), Gomes (nice young bench piece), Green (still believe to have some upside then) and 2 future first rounders. There really is no comparison between the 3 offseasons and what the teams gave up.

Also Cook never averaged more than 5.5 points after leaving Miami and out of the league by age 26. A truly bizarre player to bring up.

[johnnygreen]

Doc was spot on. From a competitive point of view, what Durant did was embarrassing. The same can be said for the Miami Heat, when LeBron and Bosh joined Wade. To me, free agents forming super teams like this for the sole purpose of winning the title, just cheapens the accomplishment of the championship. In no way should the 2008 Celtics be talked about in the same story. Danny had to actually trade valuable picks and players to get Allen and Garnett. BTW, Allen and Garnett were past their primes when they were traded to the Celtics, where as Durant, LeBron, Bosh and Wade were in the primes of their careers when they joined with their super teams.

Both Miami and Golden State had to make a lot of moves to free up cap space, including letting valuable players go (and some draft picks).  Something feels a little better about making a real trade, but it isn't like those teams just signed these players to minimum contracts and didn't have to make sacrifices. 

I mean obviously it was worth it for the Warriors to sacrifice Barnes, Bogut, Barbosa, Speights, and Ezeli to sign Durant, but that was 2 starters and a number of key bench contributors to free up enough room to sign him.  He didn't just walk through the door and sign with the same team because that just didn't happen (the same core, sure, but not the same team). 

Miami had planned for that off season for three years.  They gave up a lot of victories along the way to make sure they had enough room for 3 max level players and then still had to make even more salary dumping trades that summer (like Cook + a 1st for a 2nd rounder, Beasley for a couple of 2nd rounders, etc.).  Even then they still had to do sign and trades to make it work giving up multiple 1st round picks in that process.

Barnes was one of the weak links in their starting lineup, and was a position that wanted to upgrade. I don't know the timing of Golden States pursuit of Durant, but Dallas did make signing Barnes their #1 priority at max money. So the option of bringing back Barnes for Golden State was out of the question, since they would have had to match Dallas' offer. As for Bogut, Speights, Barbosa, and Ezeli, they're basically interchangeable backups that could be replaced.

Am I supposed to feel bad for Miami because they signed garbage players to basically one year deals so they could collude with LeBron and Bosh for 1-3 years before they hit free agency? Is Cook even in the league anymore? I'm sure they still miss the journeyman that is Michael Beasley.

[Who]

If the league was gonna bump up the salary cap 20% (or whatever the percentage was)---they should have just gave every player a 20% raise--not let this happen.

I guess there was no real good way to do it though.

Agreed -- all contracts should be set as a percentage of cap. Not a cash figure.

[celticsclay]

Doc was spot on. From a competitive point of view, what Durant did was embarrassing. The same can be said for the Miami Heat, when LeBron and Bosh joined Wade. To me, free agents forming super teams like this for the sole purpose of winning the title, just cheapens the accomplishment of the championship. In no way should the 2008 Celtics be talked about in the same story. Danny had to actually trade valuable picks and players to get Allen and Garnett. BTW, Allen and Garnett were past their primes when they were traded to the Celtics, where as Durant, LeBron, Bosh and Wade were in the primes of their careers when they joined with their super teams.

Both Miami and Golden State had to make a lot of moves to free up cap space, including letting valuable players go (and some draft picks).  Something feels a little better about making a real trade, but it isn't like those teams just signed these players to minimum contracts and didn't have to make sacrifices. 

I mean obviously it was worth it for the Warriors to sacrifice Barnes, Bogut, Barbosa, Speights, and Ezeli to sign Durant, but that was 2 starters and a number of key bench contributors to free up enough room to sign him.  He didn't just walk through the door and sign with the same team because that just didn't happen (the same core, sure, but not the same team). 

Miami had planned for that off season for three years.  They gave up a lot of victories along the way to make sure they had enough room for 3 max level players and then still had to make even more salary dumping trades that summer (like Cook + a 1st for a 2nd rounder, Beasley for a couple of 2nd rounders, etc.).  Even then they still had to do sign and trades to make it work giving up multiple 1st round picks in that process.

Barnes was one of the weak links in their starting lineup, and was a position that wanted to upgrade. I don't know the timing of Golden States pursuit of Durant, but Dallas did make signing Barnes their #1 priority at max money. So the option of bringing back Barnes for Golden State was out of the question, since they would have had to match Dallas' offer. As for Bogut, Speights, Barbosa, and Ezeli, they're basically interchangeable backups that could be replaced.

Am I supposed to feel bad for Miami because they signed garbage players to basically one year deals so they could collude with LeBron and Bosh for 1-3 years before they hit free agency? Is Cook even in the league anymore? I'm sure they still miss the journeyman that is Michael Beasley.

I mean the Heat losing people isn't even a thing. They signed Mike Miller who was coming off a season averaging 11 points and shooting 48% from 3. He was a big get for them. They also added in Jerry Stackhouse who still seemed servicable coming off a season averaging 8.5 for the Bucks, our old friend Eddie House who everyone thought was a nice bench piece. Erik Dampier (coming off a season he started 45 games) and old friend Ilguaskas who was still a rotation player for the Cavs before signing. The idea the Cavs somehow paid a big price to sign that guy cause they traded Cook and Beasely and a some mostly middling first round picks is laughable compared to what the Celtics gave up for players in Allen and Garnett who were much older and much closer to the end of their career. Really apples to oranges. 

[Moranis]

I wasn't suggesting the situations are similar merely pointing out there was a lot of strategy by the Heat to finagle the cap room and they gave up a lot of picks which were mostly late 1sts though the one in the Cook trade was the draft rights to Eric Bledsoe.  And Beasley was a very recent #2 pick in the draft they just gave away. Granted he wasnt great in retrospect but he still had solid value then.

Obviously Durant is a major upgrade on Barnes, but I believe GS matches if they don't sign Durant and they don't trade Bogut or lose some of the key bench players. And there was certainly no guarantee they would be able to fill those spots with Pachulia, West, etc.  GS gutted their bench to sign Durant.

Again obviously not quite the same as losing the draft rights to Jeff Green, Al Jefferson, some bench players, and a future 1st, though mostly because Al Jefferson was a real top line prospect (even if he didn't quite live up to his potential).

[celticsclay]

I wasn't suggesting the situations are similar merely pointing out there was a lot of strategy by the Heat to finagle the cap room and they gave up a lot of picks which were mostly late 1sts though the one in the Cook trade was the draft rights to Eric Bledsoe.  And Beasley was a very recent #2 pick in the draft they just gave away. Granted he wasnt great in retrospect but he still had solid value then.

Obviously Durant is a major upgrade on Barnes, but I believe GS matches if they don't sign Durant and they don't trade Bogut or lose some of the key bench players. And there was certainly no guarantee they would be able to fill those spots with Pachulia, West, etc.  GS gutted their bench to sign Durant.

Again obviously not quite the same as losing the draft rights to Jeff Green, Al Jefferson, some bench players, and a future 1st, though mostly because Al Jefferson was a real top line prospect (even if he didn't quite live up to his potential).

Do you really think they wanted back Speights, an injured Ezeli or a 34 year old Barbosa? I think they felt as a title contender they could fill out their bench with better guys than them (and they were right). Those guys are really not losses and none of them made an impact this season. They definitely wanted Livingston and Iggy back and they were the keys.

[Moranis]

I wasn't suggesting the situations are similar merely pointing out there was a lot of strategy by the Heat to finagle the cap room and they gave up a lot of picks which were mostly late 1sts though the one in the Cook trade was the draft rights to Eric Bledsoe.  And Beasley was a very recent #2 pick in the draft they just gave away. Granted he wasnt great in retrospect but he still had solid value then.

Obviously Durant is a major upgrade on Barnes, but I believe GS matches if they don't sign Durant and they don't trade Bogut or lose some of the key bench players. And there was certainly no guarantee they would be able to fill those spots with Pachulia, West, etc.  GS gutted their bench to sign Durant.

Again obviously not quite the same as losing the draft rights to Jeff Green, Al Jefferson, some bench players, and a future 1st, though mostly because Al Jefferson was a real top line prospect (even if he didn't quite live up to his potential).

Do you really think they wanted back Speights, an injured Ezeli or a 34 year old Barbosa? I think they felt as a title contender they could fill out their bench with better guys than them (and they were right). Those guys are really not losses and none of them made an impact this season. They definitely wanted Livingston and Iggy back and they were the keys.

I think they missed what Speights, Ezeli, Rush, and Barbosa brought at times this year but bench players are bench players for a reason (and Ezeli likely wouldn't have played at all for them anyway).  Bogut gave them more than Pachulia but from your 5th starter and 6th best player it doesn't make much difference during the season. 

I actually think the loss of Bogut will matter most against the Cavs because he was a real rim protector something only the very inconsistent and unreliable McGee provides GS this year.  I don't think that the loss of Bogut will alter the series outcome but could be a factor down the stretch in a close game.

[tazzmaniac]

It is what it is.  If we had lucked into the Warriors situation, no one on here would be complaining. 

[RockinRyA]

I wasn't suggesting the situations are similar merely pointing out there was a lot of strategy by the Heat to finagle the cap room and they gave up a lot of picks which were mostly late 1sts though the one in the Cook trade was the draft rights to Eric Bledsoe.  And Beasley was a very recent #2 pick in the draft they just gave away. Granted he wasnt great in retrospect but he still had solid value then.

Obviously Durant is a major upgrade on Barnes, but I believe GS matches if they don't sign Durant and they don't trade Bogut or lose some of the key bench players. And there was certainly no guarantee they would be able to fill those spots with Pachulia, West, etc.  GS gutted their bench to sign Durant.

Again obviously not quite the same as losing the draft rights to Jeff Green, Al Jefferson, some bench players, and a future 1st, though mostly because Al Jefferson was a real top line prospect (even if he didn't quite live up to his potential).

Do you really think they wanted back Speights, an injured Ezeli or a 34 year old Barbosa? I think they felt as a title contender they could fill out their bench with better guys than them (and they were right). Those guys are really not losses and none of them made an impact this season. They definitely wanted Livingston and Iggy back and they were the keys.

I think they missed what Speights, Ezeli, Rush, and Barbosa brought at times this year but bench players are bench players for a reason (and Ezeli likely wouldn't have played at all for them anyway).  Bogut gave them more than Pachulia but from your 5th starter and 6th best player it doesn't make much difference during the season. 

I actually think the loss of Bogut will matter most against the Cavs because he was a real rim protector something only the very inconsistent and unreliable McGee provides GS this year.  I don't think that the loss of Bogut will alter the series outcome but could be a factor down the stretch in a close game.

Losing someone like Bogut will certainly set your team back a bit. But here's the thing, he hasn't been healthy. I think that is the deciding factor when the Warriors let him go. Pachulia>>>>Injured Bogut.