It's time to start JJ over Amir

[BudweiserCeltic]

I completely disagree with the OP on this one. You mention the switching of Amir to guard center is so that Horford doesnt have to. Last year Sullinger guarded the bigger Centers and Amir covered the 4s.

Shooting and spacing arent the issue with the starters is D and rebounding in which JJ is largely terrible at. I dont think he offers the starters anything to be honest with you.

Lastly, I could make a case that once KO comes back that JJ shouldnt be playing at all. His game is deficient in almost all areas outside of shooting. He is a 6'10 better passing version of Green. 2 guys that offer nothing but scoring and the team get hurt everytime both are out there together as far as i can see.

In what world is JJ bad at D and rebounding?? He's a very good defender with excellent length and versatility on that end, and he's not an elite rebounder by any means, but he's nearly as solid of a rebounder at the 4 position as Amir. As a starter he even averaged more rebounds than Amir last postseason.

Yeah, I was scratching my head at that. I'll be honest, his defense has left something to be desired for me early on and his rebounding has been quite bad early on. But the player being described up there doesn't resemble the Jerebko I know at all.

It's a matter if he'll get back into his groove or will continue playing like he's had since preseason, and would giving him the playing time would be worth it considering how long our rotation currently is (even with 2 rotation players out) and most if not all our players getting playing time outperforming him.

I'd rather invest in players who are more likely to be with this team beyond this season.

[jpotter33]

I completely disagree with the OP on this one. You mention the switching of Amir to guard center is so that Horford doesnt have to. Last year Sullinger guarded the bigger Centers and Amir covered the 4s.

Shooting and spacing arent the issue with the starters is D and rebounding in which JJ is largely terrible at. I dont think he offers the starters anything to be honest with you.

Lastly, I could make a case that once KO comes back that JJ shouldnt be playing at all. His game is deficient in almost all areas outside of shooting. He is a 6'10 better passing version of Green. 2 guys that offer nothing but scoring and the team get hurt everytime both are out there together as far as i can see.

In what world is JJ bad at D and rebounding?? He's a very good defender with excellent length and versatility on that end, and he's not an elite rebounder by any means, but he's nearly as solid of a rebounder at the 4 position as Amir. As a starter he even averaged more rebounds than Amir last postseason.

Yeah, I was scratching my head at that. I'll be honest, his defense has left something to be desired for me early on and his rebounding has been quite bad early on. But the player being described up there doesn't resemble the Jerebko I know at all.

It's a matter if he'll get back into his groove or will continue playing like he's had since preseason, and would giving him the playing time would be worth it considering how long our rotation currently is (even with 2 rotation players out) and most if not all our players getting playing time outperforming him.

I'd rather invest in players who are more likely to be with this team beyond this season.

I actually think JJ has a good chance of sticking with us next year, because he'll be very cheap, he's a versatile defender at the big position (which is a big sticking point for Brad), and he can spread the floor. I think out of all of our bigs, AJ and JJ are the most likely to stick as bench pieces, because that will certainly be priority number one in upgrading this offseason.

But I expect to see less and less time for both AJ and JJ now that Smart is back, giving us a much more reliable small-ball unit to go to. It'll be interesting to see how the minutes are going to be managed once both Smart and KO are back, because there's a lot of players for those big minutes. I'd hope for KO to eventually win the starting spot and to earn pretty big minutes alongside Horford, which would leave another really good pairing in Amir and JJ in the bench unit.

[clevelandceltic]

He is an above average defender on stretch 4s but is ineffective against anyone with any strength. I wouldnt have him defend any besides stretch 4s. Putting him as a stretch 5 is just murder because he doesnt rebound. The idea of him going to the starting unit to me is a nonstarter because he doesnt offer much besides shooting and the ability to switch. He needs to rebound much better in my book to ever be considered a stater let alone a consistent rotation player.

[crimson_stallion]

I think your bias is showing if you're concluding that Amir has been worse than Jerebko.

I think you're probably just as biased if you can't admit that Amir has been atrocious so far.

Sure, JJ hasn't been much better, but there's a difference when he's playing with the JV team and Amir is playing with the Varsity team.

When you compare the two in the same context, such as when they were both starters in the playoffs last year, then it's clear that JJ outperformed AJ when actually playing with good players.

He'd be much better for us in a starting role than Amir, even if it's not due just to his play itself but rather him moving Horford to his more natural center position and providing more spacing for penetration. That's undeniable.

Have I said anything for Amir? I've simply stated that Jerebko has been terrible and that your conclusion that Amir has been worse than Jerebko is incredibly biased.

Jerebko has been easily the worst player on the floor so far for the Celtics out of anyone who has seen playing time, easily.

So no, no matter how you want to paint it, Amir hasn't been worse than Jerebko. That's the only point I've made.

There are other avenues to explore before promoting our current worst player so far (of those who dress) to the starting line-up over Amir...

As a starter in the playoffs, JJ's averages were:

31.25 MPG
18-34 FG
6-17 3PFG
7.75 RPG
1.5 APG
1.25 TOPG
11.5 PPG

Compared to Amir's averages:

22.3 MPG
22-33 FG
0-2 3PFG
7.2 RPG
0.7 APG
1.7 TOPG
8.5 PPG

I'm not sure how you think those stats help your argument...

So Jerebko averaged +3 points, similar assisst numbers, similar turnover numbers, similar rebounding numbers despite playing almost 10 more minutes and shooting a significantly worst FG%. 

Personally, I would say that Amir was clearly the better player of the two statistically, and that's not even taking into account blocks (which I'm sure Amir won) and overall defense (where Amir is far superior).

I completely understand people wanting to have an upgrade over Amir at the starting PF spot - but Jonas Jerebko sure as hell is not that guy.  Kelly Olynyk might be, but we'll have to see how his game progresses (if at all) this year before making that call.

Ultimately we would pull off a trade and bring in Greg Monroe.  He's an elite rebounder, an outstanding passer and a highly efficient scorer who is on a bargain contract ($17M x2) and has averaged 18 MPG off the bench in his last two games in Milwaukee.  He's also got an outstanding medical history and a good attitude - he's pretty much a poor man's Kevin McHale.

He'd be a nice fit next to Horford to, as Horford offers rim protection, defensive versatility and outside shooter.     

Jerebko...I like the guy, but we're not making much noise in the East with him as out starting four. 

I don't mind Amir out there to start - even if he can't stay out there long, having him on that first unit allows to set the tone early with defense and toughness.

[crimson_stallion]

He is an above average defender on stretch 4s but is ineffective against anyone with any strength. I wouldnt have him defend any besides stretch 4s. Putting him as a stretch 5 is just murder because he doesnt rebound. The idea of him going to the starting unit to me is a nonstarter because he doesnt offer much besides shooting and the ability to switch. He needs to rebound much better in my book to ever be considered a stater let alone a consistent rotation player.

Not sure I agree about him not rebounding.  JJ is actually a pretty good rebounder considering he spends much of his time on the perimeter.   

For his career he's averaged around 8 rebounds per 36, and has a career rebound rate of 12.5% which is actually dead equal to what Jahlil Okafor (a 6'11", 260 pound, 7'5" wingspan beast) averaged last season.

Not as good a rebounder as Amir Johnson by any means, but for a fairly small, fairly skinny, not especially athletic stretch four who spends a lot of time on the perimeter his rebounding is quite very respectable.

My bigger concern is his interior scoring and interior defense.  Jonas is more effective defending stretch fours (as you said above) thanks to his solid combination of length and mobility.  Get in in the paint one-on-one against anybody with height, length or strength and he's as good as toast.

Amir on the other hand is an outstanding interior defender - both on the ball and off the ball.  He sets good screens. affects a ton of opponent shots around the basket, and is actually an extremely effective scorer in the paint.  Considering what Horford has (or more accurately, hasn't) shown so far, I'm not sure we can afford to give that up for Jerebko, who really only gives us energy and the ability to make wide-open threes.

[saltlover]

This thread needs to be bumped.

[loco_91]

This thread needs to be bumped.

I came here to do the same thing. TP.

[fantankerous]

This thread needs to be bumped.

I figured Amir would bump it himself after the game.  Clearly, this thread lit a fire under him.  😜

[jpotter33]

This thread needs to be bumped.

He's been good tonight, but let's also not overreact to a guy getting hot. Everyone gets hot and hits shot at one time or another. He's still been terrible on the boards and not all that great on his defensive rotations.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that he's playing better on a night that Horford isn't playing.

[tarheelsxxiii]

Welp, we learned that Amir reads CsBlog.  Pretty cool of him to take the time out, imo.

[Jay_Diggles]

I remember this thread.   Classic example of over reaction to one and 3 games.   Both sides of the fence.   Bottom line good to see that stroke from 3.   

[crimson_stallion]

This thread needs to be bumped.

He's been good tonight, but let's also not overreact to a guy getting hot. Everyone gets hot and hits shot at one time or another. He's still been terrible on the boards and not all that great on his defensive rotations.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that he's playing better on a night that Horford isn't playing.

For his career Amir has shot 57.4% from the field, breaking down to:

70.6% inside 3ft
46.6% from 3ft - 9 ft
38% from 10ft -15ft
40% from 16ft - 3pt
31.4% from 3pt

His outright scoring numbers have never been sky high because it's never been his role (a career 15% usage rate attests to this) but he has always been a very efficient offensive player who can put the ball in the basket from pretty much anywhere on the court. 

People talk about Amir as if the guy can't score - he can, he just doesn't because it's not his role. 

When we've had guys out (e.g. Bradley and Olynyk in the playoffs, Horford and Olynyk today) he's tended to step up and produce quite well on the offensive end.