How bad is Okafor's defense...

[ssspence]

Finished DFL in RPM amongst NBA Cs. So.... NFG.

[PhoSita]

Finished DFL in RPM amongst NBA Cs. So.... NFG.

Not exactly surprising when you consider the context.

A poor defending center on a team with horrible perimeter defenders, who shared minutes at the position with a defensive role player.

[celticsclay]

I am wondering how many points we think Zeller would have averaged on the 76ers last year in place of Okafor. He averaged 10 points for us the year before last when he was getting 20 minutes a game  and was taking 7.5 shots a game. Could he have gotten 13-15 in 30 minutes of play with a lot of garbage time? It is kind of interesting to think about. He could have parlayed that into a pretty big signing this offseason I imagine.

[Moranis]

I am wondering how many points we think Zeller would have averaged on the 76ers last year in place of Okafor. He averaged 10 points for us the year before last when he was getting 20 minutes a game  and was taking 7.5 shots a game. Could he have gotten 13-15 in 30 minutes of play with a lot of garbage time? It is kind of interesting to think about. He could have parlayed that into a pretty big signing this offseason I imagine.

I'm not sure it would have translated into a big contract.  It would depend on how he scored and how he looked doing it.  Henry Sims put up some big numbers in Philly and didn't lead to much of anything after his contract was up.

[PhoSita]

I am wondering how many points we think Zeller would have averaged on the 76ers last year in place of Okafor. He averaged 10 points for us the year before last when he was getting 20 minutes a game  and was taking 7.5 shots a game. Could he have gotten 13-15 in 30 minutes of play with a lot of garbage time? It is kind of interesting to think about. He could have parlayed that into a pretty big signing this offseason I imagine.

On a team with awful spacing and basically nobody who can effectively run a pick and roll?  I doubt he would have done very well.

Zeller needed to be a free agent a year earlier.  In 2014-2015, among the players who were actually on the team all season, Zeller was probably the most consistent and productive player on the Celts, despite fairly limited playing time.

With good spacing and passers who will reward his rim-running, Zeller can be an effective and productive piece.  He sets good screens and gives good effort on the defensive end.

He's got nothing resembling Okafor's skill around the basic, not to mention the freakish combination of size, touch, strength, and coordination that Okafor displays.

[celticsclay]

I am wondering how many points we think Zeller would have averaged on the 76ers last year in place of Okafor. He averaged 10 points for us the year before last when he was getting 20 minutes a game  and was taking 7.5 shots a game. Could he have gotten 13-15 in 30 minutes of play with a lot of garbage time? It is kind of interesting to think about. He could have parlayed that into a pretty big signing this offseason I imagine.

On a team with awful spacing and basically nobody who can effectively run a pick and roll?  I doubt he would have done very well.

Zeller needed to be a free agent a year earlier.  In 2014-2015, among the players who were actually on the team all season, Zeller was probably the most consistent and productive player on the Celts, despite fairly limited playing time.

With good spacing and passers who will reward his rim-running, Zeller can be an effective and productive piece.  He sets good screens and gives good effort on the defensive end.

He's got nothing resembling Okafor's skill around the basic, not to mention the freakish combination of size, touch, strength, and coordination that Okafor displays.

I realize this would warrant a comparison to Okafor cause I made the comment in this thread, but when I was looking at Zeller's stats in 20 minutes from the year before last it was something I definitely thought about. You do realize Noel averaged 11 points and Ish Smith 14.5. You don't think Zeller could be in that ballpark with significant minutes? In 2014-2015 Tony Wroten averaged 17 a game and Luc Mbah a Moute was averaging 10. It is unclear if those guys will even be in the league this year, so pretty sure Zeller could have thrived on raw stats too.

[PhoSita]

I think that if Ish Smith had been with that team all year, perhaps a guy like Zeller could have done OK.

Thing is, Zeller looked pretty good in 2014-2015 when the team regularly played him in small lineups and he could just rim-run. 

In 2015-2016, he started out the year getting shoehorned into lineups that basically featured two centers plus at least a couple of poor shooters (Smart / Turner / Crowd), and he struggled.

A guy like Zeller, who really can't create offense for himself and needs room to operate so he excellent speed / coordination / hands are able to outshine his lack of superlative length, explosion, and finishing strength.  I'm just not sure he'd necessarily be in that kind of situation if he were in Philly.

[celticsclay]

I think that if Ish Smith had been with that team all year, perhaps a guy like Zeller could have done OK.

Thing is, Zeller looked pretty good in 2014-2015 when the team regularly played him in small lineups and he could just rim-run. 

In 2015-2016, he started out the year getting shoehorned into lineups that basically featured two centers plus at least a couple of poor shooters (Smart / Turner / Crowd), and he struggled.

A guy like Zeller, who really can't create offense for himself and needs room to operate so he excellent speed / coordination / hands are able to outshine his lack of superlative length, explosion, and finishing strength.  I'm just not sure he'd necessarily be in that kind of situation if he were in Philly.

You are kind of not really answering the question here though. If Noel could average 11 points a game on rim runs and with being a worse shooter, what do you think Zeller would average there if Okafor was not around and Zeller was getting those minutes.

[Moranis]

I think that if Ish Smith had been with that team all year, perhaps a guy like Zeller could have done OK.

Thing is, Zeller looked pretty good in 2014-2015 when the team regularly played him in small lineups and he could just rim-run. 

In 2015-2016, he started out the year getting shoehorned into lineups that basically featured two centers plus at least a couple of poor shooters (Smart / Turner / Crowd), and he struggled.

A guy like Zeller, who really can't create offense for himself and needs room to operate so he excellent speed / coordination / hands are able to outshine his lack of superlative length, explosion, and finishing strength.  I'm just not sure he'd necessarily be in that kind of situation if he were in Philly.

You are kind of not really answering the question here though. If Noel could average 11 points a game on rim runs and with being a worse shooter, what do you think Zeller would average there if Okafor was not around and Zeller was getting those minutes.

Noel is a lot more athletic and faster than Zeller, as such they don't have comparable games.

Zeller would have scored in the 13 point range if he played 30 minutes on that team just by virtue of playing a bunch of minutes, but that wouldn't have necessarily translated into a big contract.  See Henry Sims. 

[celticsclay]

I think that if Ish Smith had been with that team all year, perhaps a guy like Zeller could have done OK.

Thing is, Zeller looked pretty good in 2014-2015 when the team regularly played him in small lineups and he could just rim-run. 

In 2015-2016, he started out the year getting shoehorned into lineups that basically featured two centers plus at least a couple of poor shooters (Smart / Turner / Crowd), and he struggled.

A guy like Zeller, who really can't create offense for himself and needs room to operate so he excellent speed / coordination / hands are able to outshine his lack of superlative length, explosion, and finishing strength.  I'm just not sure he'd necessarily be in that kind of situation if he were in Philly.

You are kind of not really answering the question here though. If Noel could average 11 points a game on rim runs and with being a worse shooter, what do you think Zeller would average there if Okafor was not around and Zeller was getting those minutes.

Noel is a lot more athletic and faster than Zeller, as such they don't have comparable games.

Zeller would have scored in the 13 point range if he played 30 minutes on that team just by virtue of playing a bunch of minutes, but that wouldn't have necessarily translated into a big contract.  See Henry Sims.

Well if Zeller put up identical stats don't you think he would be given a lot more of a contract consideration than Sims given that he has better size (2 inches taller) and was a mid first round draft pick versus undrafted for Sims. 

Edit: I don't want to start the debate of how much draft position impacts a player's prospects 2 or 3 years into their career but just to emphasis the point that Zeller was viewed as a much higher prospect when he entered the league than Sims was (and around the same time), probably at least partly because of his size. If both guys put up good numbers on a bad team I think at least some GMs would be more likely to buy Zeller off of it.

[hwangjini_1]

actually, SoSH is discussing a similar theme right now and they have some very good posts there about okafur.

scroll down about 1/2 of the page and you will see it. the debate also involves okafur as an offensive player and the stats they are citing are very interesting.

http://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/the-sixers-and-building-a-winner.4462/page-17

[celticsclay]

Thought this was an interesting list of centers that someone put together over there that are 25 and under (I took a few really ridiculous ones off the list). Makes you think maybe there isn't the same shortage of young center as in the past?

Tristan Thompson
Karl-Anthony Towns
Enes Kanter
Andre Drummond
Anthony Davis
Derrick Favors
Jonas Valanciunas
Nikola Jokic
Steven Adams
Rudy Gobert
Bismack Biyombo
Kristaps Porzingis
Willie Cauley-Stein
Myles Turner
Nerlens Noel
Meyers Leonard
Alex Len
Jahlil Okafor
Jusuf Nurkic

We then obviously have some players like Horford, Howard, Cousins, Robin and Brook Lopez, Vucevic, Gasol etc.. that are older but their teams don't need a stud center either.