Author Topic: Derek Bodner's Big Board (very interesting)  (Read 8003 times)

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Re: Derek Bodner's Big Board (very interesting)
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2016, 06:30:46 PM »

Offline chilidawg

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I just love how every single thread turns into a mud fight over Dragan Bender. If we draft him, I'll have to quit CB.

What I just don't get is how people are so certain about him one way or the other and we really know so little about him.

Re: Derek Bodner's Big Board (very interesting)
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2016, 06:41:43 PM »

Offline walker834

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That is way too high for Valentine.   I am a fan  of his but people are overrating him because of Draymond except he can't play defense.   We have Turner and Smart  who were basically top 6 picks.  Valentine is not as athletic as Turner and is a worse defender.  Draymond got overlooked because of his supposed lack of athleticism.  He was a well rounded player and defender with a huge motor though.  Valentine has more knocks against him then any of those guys.  He is more Kirk Hinrich in that regard.

We don't even need players like that although adding someone wouldn't  hurt.  I agree Lawawu is being underrated in drafts though where why not take him higher.

I like Valentine better because of his style but as far as a prospect he's more someone I'd hope would fall anyways.

The issue with this draft is after the top 2 or 3 it's basically 10 players or so that are very similar.  It can really go either way.

Bender to me is still the closest thing to Draymond this draft. Valentine can definately fill up a stat sheet offensively though. Bender, Lawawu and Valentine are similar in that regard.  I prefer them over guys like Murray in ways but Murray is a better prospect than most of them. So is Brown.  I'm not big on Murray at all either.  Brown  yes.

I prefer guys like Valentine etc but more as later picks.  Switch it around and eh. After the top 2 or 3 there isn't a huge difference.  Guys  like Ellenson have a chance to be a star but a  lot of bust potential there too. Luwawu has some upside etc.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 06:53:33 PM by walker834 »

Re: Derek Bodner's Big Board (very interesting)
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2016, 06:54:56 PM »

Offline Big333223

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"Derek Bodner" sounds suspiciously a lot like "Dragan Bender." Mostly the same letters. I call foul.
Fishy. Is "Derek Bodner" a tall, young, white guy with a bushy mustache?
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Re: Derek Bodner's Big Board (very interesting)
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2016, 06:58:56 PM »

Offline walker834

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Ellenson is really the guy people should be questioning as a high pick not Bender imo. Ellenson can fill it up in a variety of ways, but also looks like nothing more than an overly glorified harangody at times.  He moves around better than Harangody ever did but doesn't move too well himself if you watch him against a guy like Simmons. 

Bender is a twig and has yet to produce at a high level mainly due to playing time and age.  Ingram is a twig too though but did produce in his one year.  Ellenson produced numbers that were about as efficient as Marcus Smart at the college level without the defense.

Take your pick.

Re: Derek Bodner's Big Board (very interesting)
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2016, 07:03:29 PM »

Offline alldaboston

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Lol I'd probably take bender over ellenson. And I'm not even a bender fan. I don't like ellenson either, but I like bender more than I like ellenson.
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Re: Derek Bodner's Big Board (very interesting)
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2016, 07:05:21 PM »

Offline walker834

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Lol I'd probably take bender over ellenson. And I'm not even a bender fan. I don't like ellenson either, but I like bender more than I like ellenson.

For me it's more their style of play.  Bender has a lot of upside to me even over Ingram possibly.  Ingram is primarily a scorer who can score in a variety of ways. He is not a distributor really or a shot blocker.  His style is very different than Bender if you watch them.  I think physically and development wise Bender is a year younger if i'm not mistaken. 

I'd take Bender over Ingram myself.  It's a gamble but I would. Ingram probably has more potential taking it to the rim and finishing and as a scorer with his lift and skill, but Bender can score in a variety of ways.  Poor man's bird or gervin to me. Bender is probably more Kirelenko than that but who knows.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 07:10:33 PM by walker834 »

Re: Derek Bodner's Big Board (very interesting)
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2016, 07:43:05 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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What do we know about what he can do defensively, though?

What about his career so far demonstrates he will be able to defend the perimeter at the NBA level?


A fair question about any prospect and any skill -- will it translate to the NBA?

FWIW - I've been grinding through Maccabi FOX Tel Aviv game highlight videos from their games this season, parsing out the segments that have Bender on the floor.   If you go to their website they have a link to their Youtube channel buried in their 'fan zone' menu.  They have highlights of every game posted.  They have highlight videos profiling some of the 'stars' on the team, but not Bender -- these are the veterans who are actually featured on the team.  They have whole game vids from prior seasons but not yet full games for this season. 

The game-highlight vids are pretty comprehensive, though, because they tend to include most scoring possessions (for both teams) and you can extract quite a bit from them.  These are more useful than highlight vids featuring Bender because they don't focus on him, but rather the game in general - more often highlighting his teammates and the big plays by the other team.  So you get to see Bender sometimes, "just doing his job" on a play.  Sometimes that meant he was the guy who scored, blocked a shot or grabbed the rebound.  But most of the time, he's just guarding someone or setting a pick or whatever.

On the defensive question -- Bender seems to be frequently used by his current coach as a defensive substitution late in games and of the total minutes of vid I could find with him on the floor, most are on defense.  If you grind though these you do see him as pretty good at switching on the perimeter.  He's got very good lateral footwork and is able to stay in front of much faster guards.   I think this is legit and why he's got the attention of NBA scouts.   

There was not much vid on how well he holds the block.  He looks bigger now than in the vids from prior years that you find on most draft web sites, but I wouldn't expect him to hold Brook Lopez on the block yet.  I suspect he'd get crushed.

His offense is harder to gauge because he's not 'featured' much and his scoring is generally as a secondary or 3rd option in their offense.  His 3PT shooting looks good, scoring those mainly from the corners on kick-outs.  I don't recall any highlights of him shooting threes while contested so I can't attest to how he shoots with pressure.  There are only a couple of events where he posts up and he looked okay, but the sample is to tiny.  There are several moments where he shows very good court awareness as a passer.  He seemed quick and accurate starting outlets.   Seems to have a decent handle for a big man, and there were several plays where he'd use his footwork and stride to clear himself for short-mid-range jumpers.

Basically, my $.02 take is that there is enough positive there - the perimeter defense especially - that I'd want Danny to at least bring him in and give him a workout.   Beyond that, I couldn't extract enough info to form a hard opinion on whether I'd take him over one of the other candidates at #3.   I do think he deserves to be drafted though and will likely be a successful NBA player.  His physical potential is too good and he seems at least too competent to be a complete bust.   I'm just not sure how high he should be drafted.

Quote
Look, I agree that having a seven footer with the ability to switch on pick and rolls and hit an open spot-up three is undeniably valuable.

I just don't think you need to use a top 5 pick on that sort of guy.


Yeah, it all depends on what more Danny sees (or not) in him with his much more in-depth access.   He'll have access to a lot more information and, of course, work outs.   

Quote

The way I see it, the Celts are really missing two basic things:

- A pure 18-20+ ppg scorer on the wing, ideally with good positional size

- A strong interior rebounder, finisher, and shot-changer/deterrer/blocker


If at all possible, I would like to see the BRK pick used on a guy with the potential to become one of those things.

While I concur that we need improved scoring (from all positions and both from outside and inside) and sure, improved interior defense is always nice, I don't really think Danny should draft with particular positional needs in mind.

I would prefer he take the best player available at each pick and then worry about specific needs afterwords, in free agency and trades.
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Re: Derek Bodner's Big Board (very interesting)
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2016, 07:44:56 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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Nice points Pho, I appreciate where you're coming from. Personally I'm willing to gamble on that higher ceiling with Bender because his strengths fit well with Brad Stevens basketball.

I've probably mentioned it whenever Bender comes up but the workouts will be so important for him. That's the point where he'll either lock into the 3 spot or slide quite a way

I'm with you. I don't mind Murray at all, in fact, I have him 4th overall. However, the upside Bender brings is what has him firmly entrenched as #3 in my mind.


Bodner had a few more thoughts on him via twitter:

Q- How much of a concern is the quality of competition he's facing?

A- @DerekBodnerNBA 
Very little concern. how much of a concern is the quality of competition in the SEC? People underrate the foreign leagues. Israeli league isn't the best, but he's playing against 28-30 y/o's. keep in mind, at this point something like a third of the league, maybe even more, is former american college players.




Q- How would you compare them athletically? Kristaps looks like a freak athlete for his size with insane measurables

A- @DerekBodnerNBA 
Kristaps longer and better vertically, but I think Bender moves his feet better laterally.


On thing with Bender that's I think overlooked: It's not just his quickness that makes him unique defensively, but his technique. Bender gets in a great stance, closes out under control, and rotates very well. Heady and disciplined defender for age.


This assessment matches up with what I've seen so far.
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Re: Derek Bodner's Big Board (very interesting)
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2016, 07:46:59 PM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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We will see, I wish we knew why he is not going to the combine.   I get a feeling it is on his end , not the NBA.  But then I found it and this confirms it.

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/241813/Ben-Simmons-Dragan-Bender-Skipping-NBA-Draft-Combine

I recall someone saying he didn't get an invite.  If he is all world why not show it and go number one?

Here's the Draft Express list of those going and not.  Almost all European players are listed as unable to attend.

"Analysis Conducting the Combine early in May means that most international leagues are still in full swing, which makes it impossible for the majority of European prospects to take part. This is nothing new, and is to be expected. Teams may elect to share in the costs of conducting medical examinations for this group of players once their teams' seasons are finished later in the month or in early June, or they may just decide to pick players without the benefit of their doctors' input."

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/2016-NBA-Combine-Participant-List-and-Analysis-5472/

Move along folks.  Nothing to see here.

You're talking to a brick wall I'm afraid. If it contradicts or weakens his argument...


Re: Derek Bodner's Big Board (very interesting)
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2016, 07:51:51 PM »

Offline TheSundanceKid

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Lol I'd probably take bender over ellenson. And I'm not even a bender fan. I don't like ellenson either, but I like bender more than I like ellenson.

For me it's more their style of play.  Bender has a lot of upside to me even over Ingram possibly.  Ingram is primarily a scorer who can score in a variety of ways. He is not a distributor really or a shot blocker.  His style is very different than Bender if you watch them.  I think physically and development wise Bender is a year younger if i'm not mistaken. 

I'd take Bender over Ingram myself.  It's a gamble but I would. Ingram probably has more potential taking it to the rim and finishing and as a scorer with his lift and skill, but Bender can score in a variety of ways.  Poor man's bird or gervin to me. Bender is probably more Kirelenko than that but who knows.

I think Bender and Ingram are both 18 and turned 18 at a similar time. Both are almost a year younger than Simmons.

At this point I can't justify Bender above 3. If he smashes the workouts then maybe, or if the Ingram hype dies down. I think he consolidates the #3 spot during the first few workouts though

Re: Derek Bodner's Big Board (very interesting)
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2016, 08:10:43 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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I just love how every single thread turns into a mud fight over Dragan Bender. If we draft him, I'll have to quit CB.

What I just don't get is how people are so certain about him one way or the other and we really know so little about him.

Yeah.  I understand not being 'sold' on him as the #3 pick.  I've probably seen more of him than most and I would say I'm still not certain.    I just don't get some of the hyperbolic downgrading that has been spouted on some of these threads or some of the contrived reasons to downgrade him (such as whether he will attend the Combine or not!).

If he truly sucks as bad as some folks are insisting, that should show up in the workouts and he'll sink below our pick and folks shouldn't have to worry.

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