Author Topic: What I look for in college players in the draft.  (Read 1818 times)

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What I look for in college players in the draft.
« on: March 03, 2016, 01:11:18 PM »

Offline danglertx

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These are the qualities I look for in projecting how players will do going from college ball to the NBA.  So as you watch college players try to keep these ideas in mind along with the ideas others post and maybe run down some of your favorite college players and how they fit using ideas listed here.  Maybe we can project the stars coming out of this draft.  I've watched almost no college basketball this year so I have no idea how players will stack up this year.

I'll just list these things in no particular order because their importance depends on position.

1.) defensive +/- 1 or more rule.  This is, can you guard your position and + or - one another position.  Let's use Evan Turner as an example of this.  On any given point in a game Evan can be playing the 1, 2, or 3 position.  He can also guard positions 1-3.  So at any point he can guard up to 2 positions away from his.   Can your 5 guard a 4?  Can your 3 guard the other teams 4 or 2?  Twenty years ago I wouldn't have thought this was a important as I see it now. 

2.) rebounding +1 for your position.  This is somewhat dependent on the team you play but generally I want my 1's to rebound like 2's, 2's like 3's, and so on and so on.  Right now on the Celtics, you'd have to say Smart rebounds like a 3, Crowder rebounds like a 4, and Sully rebounds like a 5 even though he is usually a 4 playing slightly out of position.  Evan Turner playing the 1 or 2 probably out rebounds those positions as a 3.  Other than that, I can't think of another player on the C's who rebounds better than his position.  I haven't looked up the stats, but the C's probably aren't a great rebounding team because you can't find many spots where they out rebound their position.

3.)  speed and height of shot.  I care less about how many shots you make in college than how quickly and from what position you are able to get your shot off.  Slow releases in college just aren't going to work in the NBA.  It is easier to get more consistent with your shot than to change your mechanics.  I don't care if you are the best shooter ever in college it just won't work in the NBA if you can't get your shot off quickly.  Seldom in NBA games do you get a wide open unchallenged jump shot.  The shot needs a quick release, needs to come from above the head and preferably even or behind the head.  Off center shooters to their shooting hand is also a huge plus.  Jason Terry was the perfect example of a shooter who kept the ball high and off to his shooting hand.  If he got you just a step to his left he could get his shot off.  Marcus Smart is a good example of this.  High release, pretty quick shot and off to his right.  With that shot style and his wide body, he has a chance to really develop into a good scorer.   An example on the other side for the C's is Kelly Olynyk.  He shoots the ball from a decent height but out in front of himself, so he will never develop into a guy who can get his shot off whenever he wants.  Much smaller guys can defend him, especially when he has no post game.  To create space to get his shot he has to do that Dirk wrong leg fade shot which he will probably never hit a good enough % to make him a go to option.

4.) ball handling at your position -1 or more.  The most underrated ability in basketball is ball handling because there aren't stats for it.  Your 1 should be able to go wherever he wants on the basketball court, through traffic, and be able to beat double teams.  2's need to be able to bring the ball up the court under pressure, break opposing players down off the dribble and get the team into sets under pressure.  3s need to be able to drive and handle the ball in the open court and traffic, 4s drive for 2 dribbles and back down, 5s just dribble into their offensive moves whether it be a drop step, baby hook setup, whatever.  Now, if you get a player whose ball handling is a position lower than his actual position, those are guys who can produce at the next level.  If your 4 can be a reliable ball handler in the open court you have something.  I'm thinking of someone like Brandon Bass who probably had an under 25% conversion rate on fast breaks with the ball in his hands.  Then look at someone like Barkely who while not pretty dribbling, was easily effective enough to advance the ball and finish breaks.

5.) size at your position.  Sometimes you just can't beat size.  Not just any size though, the size at your position.  I've never heard any talk about being undersized as a plus.  Being tall obviously is part of it, but having a long wingspan is probably more important, as well as weight that doesn't prohibit foot speed.  If you are the same speed as everyone else at your position, but 20 pounds heavier, I'd rate you well above your peers.

6.) ill combine the last two into one because they sort of go together in a weird way but this doesn't necessarily apply to 5s because of their unique offensive situation.  Range and passing for your position.  I'd put 4s and stretch 5s in one group and 3s, 2s, and 1s in another.  4s and stretch 5s have to be able to hit midrange shots or they will almost certainly be offensive limiters to your team.  They also need to be able to pass to each other in high low and hit backdoor cutters.  Meanwhile 3s to 1s have to be able to shoot the 3 at at least a 33% clip and be good to great at passing to all positions.  Turner obviously bucks this trend in shooting, as do great power 5s down low but generally if you can't shoot your position, you at least have to be able to pass to those who can, which Turner can do.

Anyway, if anyone has any "rules" they'd like to add, or player critiques using these, post them up.

Re: What I look for in college players in the draft.
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2016, 01:24:16 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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Thanks for this post.  I'm the furthest thing from an expert on college hoops or a scout of college players, so I like to see this perspective.


I'll just add -- and this probably piggy backs on what you've already said -- it seems to me based on what we've seen over the last few years that you're better off identifying guys in college who were asked to play "up" a position (e.g. a wing playing at PF / C), guard many positions, and do a lot of the dirty work for their teams.

Take a guy like that, and try to see if he's got scoring qualities that weren't allowed to shine in college.  Try to coach up and develop a player who's already shown he has the personality and the instincts to cover multiple positions and do the hard work on the glass, hustle, and keep the ball moving.

Examples of what I mean are guys like Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder, Kawhi Leonard, Draymond Green.  Aaron Gordon is starting to come on, too, and he kind of fits what I'm saying, though he was always viewed as a top tier prospect. 

Kenneth Faried is another one who has given his team top level production almost from day one even though he hasn't done a lot more than what he was expected to do coming out of college.  I feel like he's been underutilized by his coaches though.


By contrast, it seems we've seen a number of guys who are heralded as future star scorers come into the league and it turns out their scoring isn't that efficient, and they don't bring many peripheral qualities to the table, so their ability to help a team is significantly diminished. 

Shabazz Muhammad is the poster-boy for that, though Andrew Wiggins and Jabari Parker, at least so far, qualify as well.


One place where I might disagree with you is on jumpshot.  Kawhi Leonard had a much different jumper before he came into the league.  Smart has worked on his jumpshot since entering the league, though his was always pretty quick.  Jae Crowder has sped up his jumper motion, made it more fluid, and it's helped him take a larger role in the offense this year.

You can work on a guy's jumper, is what I mean.  Doesn't always happen that way -- MKG is still trying to find a jumper that can work in the NBA -- but I don't think having a slow release is a killer.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 01:48:00 PM by PhoSita »
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Re: What I look for in college players in the draft.
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2016, 01:29:43 PM »

Offline CFAN38

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I ussually look at a player and try to figure out if he has the following.

- An NBA ready skill (elite college passer, athlete, long range shooter, creates his own shot, rebounder, shot blocker, facilitator ect)

- Positional Size/mobility

- Ability to Defend his position

If a player has at least two of these three things they have a good shot of making it in the NBA.

ex

Jimmer Fredette can shoot but lacks positional size/mobility and is unable to effectively guard PGS.

Jujuan Johnson had a well rounded skill set but wasn't elite at one think and lacked the strength to defend his position



 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 02:22:20 PM by CFAN38 »
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Re: What I look for in college players in the draft.
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2016, 01:42:06 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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In this upcoming draft, some guys that stand out to me based on the above:

Ben Simmons -- he can do so many things really well.  His handle is great for his size.  He can rebound.  Great floor vision.  He's a no brainer for me at #1.  Ingram might be a better scorer from day one, but what else do we KNOW Ingram can do really well?

Kris Dunn -- With his size and all around polish, I think he'll be putting up numbers for whatever team drafts him, even if he's spending time off the ball or coming off the bench.

Denzel Valentine -- He's an older prospect, but he's got that right-down-the-middle size at 6'6'' 220, pretty much Mr. Average like Evan Turner, and he does lots of things for his team.  Should be a useful utility guy for the team that drafts him from day one.

Taurean Prince -- Another average-sized wing, he gets assists, rebounds the ball, and shoots.


Other names:  Nigel Hayes, Caris Levert, Dorian Finney-Smith



Jaylen Brown is a guy who worries me, that he might become one of those low-efficiency scorers without too many peripheral skills.  He rebounds well for his size, but doesn't have many assists for somebody who handles the ball so much.

Seems like there are a lot of shoot-first guards in this draft, too, like Buddy Hield and Jamal Murray.  I don't love the idea of spending 1st rounders on guys like that.  I'd prefer to just take a 2nd round flyer on somebody like Grayson Allen.
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Re: What I look for in college players in the draft.
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2016, 02:27:27 PM »

Offline danglertx

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As a Baylor grad, the one team I have watched play a lot is Baylor and I'm not sure I like Prince at all at the next level.  If you are lucky he might turn out to be like Dudley from BC even though he is more athletic.  I don't think he is even the best player on Baylor this year.   I definitely wouldn't take him late lottery like he is projected.  Well... I guess I might if nobody else I like is around and I can't trade the pick.

He will be a 3 in the NBA.  Can he defend 4s or 2s?  Baylor runs mostly zone so I'm not sure.   Does he rebound like a 4?  No.  His shot is workable.  Very average.  Ball handling as a 3, also average.  He doesn't drive well or at least not much.  I could see him developing there and in the open court he is average.   Can he handle like a 2 though, no.  Size at the 3 will be average in the NBA.  Passing at the 3, I haven't really seen a lot of him making great passes.  I'd say adequate.  Range is solid for his position.

I hope around the 20th pick I can find someone who ticks off a few more of those categories than Prince.

Re: What I look for in college players in the draft.
« Reply #5 on: March 03, 2016, 02:36:19 PM »

Offline danglertx

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On Jaylen Brown, I watched like a half of one of his games.  I wouldn't judge his passing off of his assist numbers because they are reliant on his teammates making shots and his not having to carry the load offensively for his team.  I can't say that one half impressed me though. 

I did watch most of the Oklahoma LSU game and Heild was impressive offensively.  I don't think he can effectively guard 3s or 1s.  Rebounding seemed weak, even for a 2.  Shot was great, fast and even off balanced he could square his shoulders and get a good shot up, ball handling was good for a 2 but not at a 1 where I'd like it.  Size at the two was probably small for NBA.  Obviously his range is there and passing was solid.

I can't make sweeping judgments on one game though.  If I did, Simmons wouldn't be #1 overall.