Author Topic: Kawhi Leonard...  (Read 6650 times)

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Re: Kawhi Leonard...
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2014, 02:09:28 AM »

Offline Future Celtics Owner

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Same. Don't see anybody in this draft outside of Parker, Embiid, or Wiggins being better than Leonard long term. Would love to see how his game progresses as the Big 3 grows older and/or retire.

Leonard is actually a pretty good comparison for Wiggins. Except Leonard is not quite the athlete Wiggins is.

Its understandable that you believe only the top 3 picks in this draft may have the value longterm of KL. But I disagree, I think there is a strong possibility Marcus Smart, Noah Vonleh, and Randle could be just as talented as KL.

Re: Kawhi Leonard...
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2014, 02:30:38 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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RC Buford is such a terrific GM.  Traded a much beloved George Hill, supposedly one of Pop's favorite players, for Leonard's draft rights.  Looks like it's paying off.  Doubtful they'd trade him.

Agreed.  Though I do think the coaching staff deserves a large amount of credit too; Leonard was a terrible shooter coming out of college and has turned into a good one.  The Spurs have gotten a lot of good players late in the draft, but I don't think all of these guys' careers would turn out the same way if were on other teams.

It's important to remember this -- coming out of college Leonard had, essentially, no three point shot at all.  He also barely played his rookie year, and was essentially tasked with making shots from deep and playing solid wing defense in order to earn playing time on a 50+ win team. It didn't help that the Spurs shot doctor was working him day in and day out, either.

If he'd been signed to, say, the Cavs, he might as well be Alonzo Gee.
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Re: Kawhi Leonard...
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2014, 02:49:14 AM »

Offline BigAlTheFuture

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RC Buford is such a terrific GM.  Traded a much beloved George Hill, supposedly one of Pop's favorite players, for Leonard's draft rights.  Looks like it's paying off.  Doubtful they'd trade him.

Agreed.  Though I do think the coaching staff deserves a large amount of credit too; Leonard was a terrible shooter coming out of college and has turned into a good one.  The Spurs have gotten a lot of good players late in the draft, but I don't think all of these guys' careers would turn out the same way if were on other teams.

It's important to remember this -- coming out of college Leonard had, essentially, no three point shot at all.  He also barely played his rookie year, and was essentially tasked with making shots from deep and playing solid wing defense in order to earn playing time on a 50+ win team. It didn't help that the Spurs shot doctor was working him day in and day out, either.

If he'd been signed to, say, the Cavs, he might as well be Alonzo Gee.

This is a ridiculous statement. Let's give Leonard some credit here. The kid works hard on both ends of the court, one of the better rebounder and defender for his position, and has a great feel for the game. The Spurs coaching staff is great but lets not make them seem like God. We can cut the crap about the "Spurs system" or whatever. Leonard is a talented player and he probably would have been successful anywhere. Let me see you put Alonzo Gee on the Spurs and have him outplay Lebron two games in a row. Yeah... don't think so.

Judging from your logic, who knows if Parker or Ginobli would still be considered HOF players had they been on another team. Role players at best, I'm sure.  ::)
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Re: Kawhi Leonard...
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2014, 03:23:11 AM »

Offline sofutomygaha

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Call me a prisoner of the moment but I would honestly give up the 6th pick in a trade for him. The kid is 22 and looked special tonight. Lockdown defense on the best player in the game, nailing jumpers and threes, tomahawk dunks, etc...Did I mention he's 22?

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Re: Kawhi Leonard...
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2014, 04:18:22 AM »

Offline celticsfan8591

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RC Buford is such a terrific GM.  Traded a much beloved George Hill, supposedly one of Pop's favorite players, for Leonard's draft rights.  Looks like it's paying off.  Doubtful they'd trade him.

Agreed.  Though I do think the coaching staff deserves a large amount of credit too; Leonard was a terrible shooter coming out of college and has turned into a good one.  The Spurs have gotten a lot of good players late in the draft, but I don't think all of these guys' careers would turn out the same way if were on other teams.

It's important to remember this -- coming out of college Leonard had, essentially, no three point shot at all.  He also barely played his rookie year, and was essentially tasked with making shots from deep and playing solid wing defense in order to earn playing time on a 50+ win team. It didn't help that the Spurs shot doctor was working him day in and day out, either.

If he'd been signed to, say, the Cavs, he might as well be Alonzo Gee.

This is a ridiculous statement. Let's give Leonard some credit here. The kid works hard on both ends of the court, one of the better rebounder and defender for his position, and has a great feel for the game. The Spurs coaching staff is great but lets not make them seem like God. We can cut the crap about the "Spurs system" or whatever. Leonard is a talented player and he probably would have been successful anywhere. Let me see you put Alonzo Gee on the Spurs and have him outplay Lebron two games in a row. Yeah... don't think so.

Judging from your logic, who knows if Parker or Ginobli would still be considered HOF players had they been on another team. Role players at best, I'm sure.  ::)

No one's saying Leonard isn't talented; of course he is.  What we're saying is that there are tons of talented guys in the NBA, and a lot of times what separates the ones who pan out from the ones who don't is the environment they come into.  From 2007-2011 the Spurs highest picks were 28th, 26th, 37th, 20th, and 29th.  The guys they took: Tiago Splitter, George Hill, DeJuan Blair, James Anderson, and Cory Joseph.  All of those guys are rotation players (thought not all are still with the Spurs); hitting on picks that late in the draft five years in a row is freaking astounding.  And that's just recent picks, they also took Ian Mahinmi 28th, Beno Udrih 28th, Luis Scola 55th, Tony Parker 28th, and Manu Ginobili 57th.  You say don't act like the Spurs coaching staff are God, but do you really think the Spurs scouting/personnel department has the foresight to distinguish between useful players and scrubs late in the draft every single time?   That sounds pretty God-like to me.  I'm not saying they aren't good at what they do or that the players they pick aren't talented; I just think that people attribute too much of players' careers to the players' talent/character and not enough to their environment.

And to be honest with you, I don't think it's a ridiculous assertion that Parker and Ginobili wouldn't be Hall of Famers in a different environment.  They have talent, but they also joined a good organization and learned how to play winning basketball:

Player A: 20 years old, 6'2", 180 lb, 15.5 PPG, 5.3 APG, 2.6 RPG, .9 SPG, 46/34/76 FG/3P/FT%
Player B: 20 years old, 6'1", 169 lb, 15.5 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.4 RPG, 1.3 SPG, 37/37/82 FG/3P/FT%

Player A is Tony Parker in 2002, in his second year.  Player B is Brandon Jennings as a rookie in 2009.  You don't think it's possible that if these guys switched places, their careers might have unfolded a little differently?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2014, 04:40:44 AM by celticsfan8591 »

Re: Kawhi Leonard...
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2014, 07:03:46 AM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Re: Kawhi Leonard...
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2014, 09:27:37 AM »

Offline D.o.s.

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RC Buford is such a terrific GM.  Traded a much beloved George Hill, supposedly one of Pop's favorite players, for Leonard's draft rights.  Looks like it's paying off.  Doubtful they'd trade him.

Agreed.  Though I do think the coaching staff deserves a large amount of credit too; Leonard was a terrible shooter coming out of college and has turned into a good one.  The Spurs have gotten a lot of good players late in the draft, but I don't think all of these guys' careers would turn out the same way if were on other teams.

It's important to remember this -- coming out of college Leonard had, essentially, no three point shot at all.  He also barely played his rookie year, and was essentially tasked with making shots from deep and playing solid wing defense in order to earn playing time on a 50+ win team. It didn't help that the Spurs shot doctor was working him day in and day out, either.

If he'd been signed to, say, the Cavs, he might as well be Alonzo Gee.

This is a ridiculous statement. Let's give Leonard some credit here. The kid works hard on both ends of the court, one of the better rebounder and defender for his position, and has a great feel for the game. The Spurs coaching staff is great but lets not make them seem like God. We can cut the crap about the "Spurs system" or whatever. Leonard is a talented player and he probably would have been successful anywhere. Let me see you put Alonzo Gee on the Spurs and have him outplay Lebron two games in a row. Yeah... don't think so.

Judging from your logic, who knows if Parker or Ginobli would still be considered HOF players had they been on another team. Role players at best, I'm sure.  ::)

No one's saying Leonard isn't talented; of course he is.  What we're saying is that there are tons of talented guys in the NBA, and a lot of times what separates the ones who pan out from the ones who don't is the environment they come into.  From 2007-2011 the Spurs highest picks were 28th, 26th, 37th, 20th, and 29th.  The guys they took: Tiago Splitter, George Hill, DeJuan Blair, James Anderson, and Cory Joseph.  All of those guys are rotation players (thought not all are still with the Spurs); hitting on picks that late in the draft five years in a row is freaking astounding.  And that's just recent picks, they also took Ian Mahinmi 28th, Beno Udrih 28th, Luis Scola 55th, Tony Parker 28th, and Manu Ginobili 57th.  You say don't act like the Spurs coaching staff are God, but do you really think the Spurs scouting/personnel department has the foresight to distinguish between useful players and scrubs late in the draft every single time?   That sounds pretty God-like to me.  I'm not saying they aren't good at what they do or that the players they pick aren't talented; I just think that people attribute too much of players' careers to the players' talent/character and not enough to their environment.

And to be honest with you, I don't think it's a ridiculous assertion that Parker and Ginobili wouldn't be Hall of Famers in a different environment.  They have talent, but they also joined a good organization and learned how to play winning basketball:

Player A: 20 years old, 6'2", 180 lb, 15.5 PPG, 5.3 APG, 2.6 RPG, .9 SPG, 46/34/76 FG/3P/FT%
Player B: 20 years old, 6'1", 169 lb, 15.5 PPG, 5.5 APG, 3.4 RPG, 1.3 SPG, 37/37/82 FG/3P/FT%

Player A is Tony Parker in 2002, in his second year.  Player B is Brandon Jennings as a rookie in 2009.  You don't think it's possible that if these guys switched places, their careers might have unfolded a little differently?

Good post. The point is that San Antonio drafts players they can put into the best positions to succeed: the only thing they had to fix about Leonard was his short, and they determined that it was fixable, so they traded George Hill for him.

Watching the draft, I remember everyone talking about how beloved George Hill was, how Indiana desperately needed a point guard, and how Kawhi Leonard was a good kid that was going to fit really well into the Spurs system as a role player.

At least a goldfish with a Lincoln Log on its back goin' across your floor to your sock drawer has a miraculous connotation to it.

Re: Kawhi Leonard...
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2014, 09:50:48 AM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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I think I'll have the unpopular opinion here.

I wont trade him the 6th. He is a great talent, but I've seen little of him as "the guy". He can be that ultimate glue guy that will hold everything together, but I don't think he's a franchise player that can be your trusted first option in the offense, the guy that will score for your team when needed, or the guy the defenses needs to focus the entire game.

He's been good, really good. But I think he's been benefiting a lot from the great San Antonio system being surrounded by greats like Tim Duncan and Tony Parker.

I won't do the 6th for a younger version of the All Star for Andre Iguodala. I think you can find players like that fairly easier than a franchise player. Heck, maybe I'll go as far to say that if Jeff Green is with the Spurs, he will and can do what Kawhi is doing right now. Will not trade the 6th pick in a very deep draft for him. Not when it can (supposedly) fetch me Kevin Love as well.
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Re: Kawhi Leonard...
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2014, 09:54:38 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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I think Gordon is a similar player to Kawahi except with more size and athleticism. So no I wouldn't trade the 6th for Kawhi.
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Re: Kawhi Leonard...
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2014, 09:56:06 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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I think Gordon is a similar player to Kawahi except with more size and athleticism. So no I wouldn't trade the 6th for Kawhi.
I would, simply because Kawhi has already improved his 3 point shot. Bird in hand.....

I'd love for us to attempt that program with Gordon, but its not a certainty to work.

Re: Kawhi Leonard...
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2014, 09:57:34 AM »

Offline Fafnir

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I don't think Jennings/Parker end up similar at all. Parker's always been an aggressive slasher, that's his game.

Jennings is a chucker who likes long jump shots, he also struggles to finish near the rim. Parker's always had a pretty good knack for that, especially once he got the floater down.