Green and Perkins trade revisited

[Roy H.]

Does Perk's presences on the court butterfly effect away Wade dislocated Rondo's elbow?

That's the biggest factor in my answer.

My position has always been "yes".  With Perk finishing out the season, it's very, very unlikely that Wade and Rondo are on the exact same court at the exact same time as the injury that took place.

People can reasonably disagree on whether Perk would have elevated our championship chances, but I don't think it makes sense to cite a future freak injury as a reason why he wouldn't have made an impact.  That injury probably doesn't occur if we kept Perk, because the season would have played out differently and the dates, times, locations and outcomes of playoff games would have changed.

  It's an interesting hypothetical. What happened to Rondo wasn't really a freak accident, it was a deliberate move by Wade. The same thing could have happened in another game.

Yeah I mean I would say it is a ridiculous hypothetical.

Maybe Rondo tears his ACL during the season if Perk stays.  Having Perk wouldhhave changed probably every single moment of Celtics basketball cfrom that point.  Maybe Perk gets reinjured anyway.

Maybe Rondo gets in a car accident driving to Perks house sometime.

People want to talk about a more realistic hypothetical like,  like Perk being injured in game 6 of the finals I'mall for being a Homer with that but this other hypotheticalis much worse than a stretch

You realize that the same hypothetical that you're calling "ridiculous" (i.e., that it wasn't inevitable that Rondo would be injured if Perk wasn't traded away) is one that you yourself agree with ("Having Perk wouldhhave changed probably every single moment of Celtics basketball cfrom that point")?

[fairweatherfan]

I'm more interested in the hypothetical of how we get past Miami with no viable backup wings.  Maybe Nate-Rob could've checked em.

[CelticG1]

Does Perk's presences on the court butterfly effect away Wade dislocated Rondo's elbow?

That's the biggest factor in my answer.

My position has always been "yes".  With Perk finishing out the season, it's very, very unlikely that Wade and Rondo are on the exact same court at the exact same time as the injury that took place.

People can reasonably disagree on whether Perk would have elevated our championship chances, but I don't think it makes sense to cite a future freak injury as a reason why he wouldn't have made an impact.  That injury probably doesn't occur if we kept Perk, because the season would have played out differently and the dates, times, locations and outcomes of playoff games would have changed.

  It's an interesting hypothetical. What happened to Rondo wasn't really a freak accident, it was a deliberate move by Wade. The same thing could have happened in another game.

Yeah I mean I would say it is a ridiculous hypothetical.

Maybe Rondo tears his ACL during the season if Perk stays.  Having Perk wouldhhave changed probably every single moment of Celtics basketball cfrom that point.  Maybe Perk gets reinjured anyway.

Maybe Rondo gets in a car accident driving to Perks house sometime.

People want to talk about a more realistic hypothetical like,  like Perk being injured in game 6 of the finals I'mall for being a Homer with that but this other hypotheticalis much worse than a stretch

You realize that the same hypothetical that you're calling "ridiculous" (i.e., that it wasn't inevitable that Rondo would be injured if Perk wasn't traded away) is one that you yourself agree with ("Having Perk wouldhhave changed probably every single moment of Celtics basketball cfrom that point")?

Do you really not think iit's an idiotic hypothetical?

It's like blaming ainge for not resigning Tony Allen that year and saying he robbed us of a championship (or whatever vague claim people are arguing)

My point about Perk changing every moment is because it was like 3 months still left in the season.  And people are arguing basically that Rondo wouldn't have been injured along with send other set backs (not to mention it would have still would be at best highly debatablethat they would even make the finals)

Another problem that I have with the argument is that,  are you mad at ainge because if he had kept Perkins supposedly Rondo wouldn't have been injured?  I mean,  seriously?

You have to look at it apples to apples.  Just like we don't know how the team would have done with Rondo healthy either way.

[indeedproceed]

At this point aren't we just advocating for a trousers of time theory?

Because if we are, Id like to go back to the pantleg where I DID actually pick the right mega millions number.

[tenn_smoothie]

I'm more interested in the hypothetical of how we get past Miami with no viable backup wings.  Maybe Nate-Rob could've checked em.

we get past them the way we always had - by pounding them into dust inside the blocks and on the glass because we were the better team during those years. not sure whether you noticed, but the Celts usually beat Miami until Danny gutted our interior toughness - you know, the advantage that we held over Miami until Danny for some insane reason decided that we needed to try to be a finesse team like the Heat when we had been beating them as a physically dominant team.

why aren't you asking how it is that they are going to get past us with their weak post lineup ?

I don't know - I played the game at the college level - I was no pro, but it just seems like common sense to me. you play to your strength and you rub the other teams nose in it, which the Celts, with Perk, Garnett, Baby, Jermaine and even Erden at times were rather good at doing. I didn't see that the Heat had any answer inside for our guys.

yes, I suppose some of us remain obsessed with this trade - but I think for good reason. I believe it broke the heart and togetherness of a very special team that had a unique togetherness that is rarely seen in pro sports and I believe their unity was real. I also think that they had a motivation borne from the 2010 Game 7 heartbreak that would have driven them to Banner 18. I believe that with all my heart and that type of motivation is very hard to beat.

Danny's greatest weakness is his lack of understanding of people and it was Red's greatest strength - how ironic that Danny's ego keeps getting in the way of him trying to prove he knows better than the greatest Coach/GM in NBA history.

I remain upset about this trade because it ripped apart a team that truly cared about each other and because it was the first Celtics team that I had dared to give my heart to again and because I am convinced Danny lost Banner #18 on February 24, 2011. Make fun if you want - but to me, that group was about more than just basketball, which is what has always made the Celtics special for me since I fell in love with them when the Old Guard went into the Forum in Game 7 in 1969 and won that trophy that, to my mind, has always belonged in Boston.

[D.o.s.]

I'm more interested in the hypothetical of how we get past Miami with no viable backup wings.  Maybe Nate-Rob could've checked em.

we get past them the way we always had - by pounding them into dust inside the blocks and on the glass because we were the better team during those years. not sure whether you noticed, but the Celts usually beat Miami until Danny gutted our interior toughness - you know, the advantage that we held over Miami until Danny for some insane reason decided that we needed to try to be a finesse team like the Heat when we had been beating them as a physically dominant team.

why aren't you asking how it is that they are going to get past us with their weak post lineup ?

I don't know - I played the game at the college level - I was no pro, but it just seems like common sense to me. you play to your strength and you rub the other teams nose in it, which the Celts, with Perk, Garnett, Baby, Jermaine and even Erden at times were rather good at doing. I didn't see that the Heat had any answer inside for our guys.

You're kind of missing the point, though. Danny traded Perk to get Jeff Green... so he could back up Pierce after Marquis Daniels went down with his spinal injury, because we had absolutely no wing depth.

Pierce only played fewer than 30 minutes for fifteen games over the regular season that year... and he ran out of gas because he was tasked guarding 'Melo and LeBron in the playoffs, even with Green to soak up some of that effort.

And you want to go back and see how Pierce holds up if he has to play 40+ minutes a night for the second half of the season and has no help on the defensive end? I don't know if we even get by New York in that scenario.

[thirstyboots18]

I'm more interested in the hypothetical of how we get past Miami with no viable backup wings.  Maybe Nate-Rob could've checked em.

we get past them the way we always had - by pounding them into dust inside the blocks and on the glass because we were the better team during those years. not sure whether you noticed, but the Celts usually beat Miami until Danny gutted our interior toughness - you know, the advantage that we held over Miami until Danny for some insane reason decided that we needed to try to be a finesse team like the Heat when we had been beating them as a physically dominant team.

why aren't you asking how it is that they are going to get past us with their weak post lineup ?

I don't know - I played the game at the college level - I was no pro, but it just seems like common sense to me. you play to your strength and you rub the other teams nose in it, which the Celts, with Perk, Garnett, Baby, Jermaine and even Erden at times were rather good at doing. I didn't see that the Heat had any answer inside for our guys.

yes, I suppose some of us remain obsessed with this trade - but I think for good reason. I believe it broke the heart and togetherness of a very special team that had a unique togetherness that is rarely seen in pro sports and I believe their unity was real. I also think that they had a motivation borne from the 2010 Game 7 heartbreak that would have driven them to Banner 18. I believe that with all my heart and that type of motivation is very hard to beat.

Danny's greatest weakness is his lack of understanding of people and it was Red's greatest strength - how ironic that Danny's ego keeps getting in the way of him trying to prove he knows better than the greatest Coach/GM in NBA history.

I remain upset about this trade because it ripped apart a team that truly cared about each other and because it was the first Celtics team that I had dared to give my heart to again and because I am convinced Danny lost Banner #18 on February 24, 2011. Make fun if you want - but to me, that group was about more than just basketball, which is what has always made the Celtics special for me since I fell in love with them when the Old Guard went into the Forum in Game 7 in 1969 and won that trophy that, to my mind, has always belonged in Boston.

This pretty much explains how I feel, also.  I felt it was a mistake by Red to trade Danny when he did and now Danny keeps repeating that same mistake.  Red made few mistakes, but Danny seems to keep making the same one over and over.  If a player is not a Larry Bird, he is soon gone from Danny's system...with no regard to continuity and chemistry.  Sorry, just my broken hearted opinion.  I am afraid Danny has lost one of his most ardent fans.

[Moranis]

I'm more interested in the hypothetical of how we get past Miami with no viable backup wings.  Maybe Nate-Rob could've checked em.

we get past them the way we always had - by pounding them into dust inside the blocks and on the glass because we were the better team during those years. not sure whether you noticed, but the Celts usually beat Miami until Danny gutted our interior toughness - you know, the advantage that we held over Miami until Danny for some insane reason decided that we needed to try to be a finesse team like the Heat when we had been beating them as a physically dominant team.

why aren't you asking how it is that they are going to get past us with their weak post lineup ?

I don't know - I played the game at the college level - I was no pro, but it just seems like common sense to me. you play to your strength and you rub the other teams nose in it, which the Celts, with Perk, Garnett, Baby, Jermaine and even Erden at times were rather good at doing. I didn't see that the Heat had any answer inside for our guys.

yes, I suppose some of us remain obsessed with this trade - but I think for good reason. I believe it broke the heart and togetherness of a very special team that had a unique togetherness that is rarely seen in pro sports and I believe their unity was real. I also think that they had a motivation borne from the 2010 Game 7 heartbreak that would have driven them to Banner 18. I believe that with all my heart and that type of motivation is very hard to beat.

Danny's greatest weakness is his lack of understanding of people and it was Red's greatest strength - how ironic that Danny's ego keeps getting in the way of him trying to prove he knows better than the greatest Coach/GM in NBA history.

I remain upset about this trade because it ripped apart a team that truly cared about each other and because it was the first Celtics team that I had dared to give my heart to again and because I am convinced Danny lost Banner #18 on February 24, 2011. Make fun if you want - but to me, that group was about more than just basketball, which is what has always made the Celtics special for me since I fell in love with them when the Old Guard went into the Forum in Game 7 in 1969 and won that trophy that, to my mind, has always belonged in Boston.

um, Miami wasn't put together until the season Perk was traded so beating Miami in the playoffs wasn't exactly old hat since it had never happened. Boston was actually a significantly better team with Shaq and JO in the lineup then they were with Perk that year.  Shaq's injury is what did in the team, not the trade of Perk because as has been pointed out without Jeff Green there is a better than average chance Pierce doesn't suit up for all the playoff games that year.  He was on his last legs when that trade was made.  The game a week before against Miami showed that when Pierce played 40 minutes and was 0-10 from the field.  Pierce just didn't have anything left to play on both sides of the floor.  Boston needed a wing and needed a wing badly.  Ainge believed that Shaq would be back for the playoffs but he knew that wouldn't have mattered if Pierce didn't make it to the playoffs which was a very real possibility without getting him support.

[fairweatherfan]

I'm more interested in the hypothetical of how we get past Miami with no viable backup wings.  Maybe Nate-Rob could've checked em.

we get past them the way we always had - by pounding them into dust inside the blocks and on the glass because we were the better team during those years. not sure whether you noticed, but the Celts usually beat Miami until Danny gutted our interior toughness - you know, the advantage that we held over Miami until Danny for some insane reason decided that we needed to try to be a finesse team like the Heat when we had been beating them as a physically dominant team.

why aren't you asking how it is that they are going to get past us with their weak post lineup ?

I don't know - I played the game at the college level - I was no pro, but it just seems like common sense to me. you play to your strength and you rub the other teams nose in it, which the Celts, with Perk, Garnett, Baby, Jermaine and even Erden at times were rather good at doing. I didn't see that the Heat had any answer inside for our guys.

We traded Erden well before the Perk deal but had all the guys you're naming otherwise, with Krstic (a better scorer) in Perk's place. 

I suppose in your reckoning it would've been impossible for the Heat to play to their strength by wearing out our starting wings with the best wing tandem in the game.  And I imagine Perk wouldn't have reinjured himself and been ineffective in the playoffs like he was for OKC.

The whole "guaranteed ring" argument boils down to a lot of imagineering of Perk being a totally different player than he was that year, Rondo not getting hurt, and having Sasha Pavlovic as the only backup for a rundown Pierce being no big deal.  If that's the story you prefer, that's fine, but it's a huge stretch and a very implausible one.

[BudweiserCeltic]

Thought this was of relevance to the better and more consistent player Kendrick Perkins:

LVP: Kendrick Perkins, Oklahoma City Thunder

Give the guy a Nobel Peace Prize, because his leadership must be that transformative. Otherwise, there is no way he could convince an NBA coach to give him 20 minutes a night in 2014. Alas, Scott Brooks can't shake his Perkins addiction. With Perkins, every shred of tangible evidence points to "not an NBA player."

Get this: He currently has more turnovers (53) than made baskets (48). And then there's the fact that he fouls five times as often as he blocks a shot.

If he does positive things outside the box score, it doesn't show on the scoreboard; the Thunder are 9.2 points per 100 possessions worse with him on the floor, according to NBA.com. That is especially amazing considering he plays almost exclusively (683 of his 690 minutes) with Kevin Durant. Even the MVP favorite can't hide his futility. Perkins ranks last in Estimated Wins Added (minus-1.5) and second-to-last in WARP (minus-1.8 ). It's hard to imagine a player more unintentionally destructive.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/10308520/nba-handing-league-least-valuable-player-awards

[aporel#18]

Yes, post-injury Perk isn't half the player he was in the 2009 playoffs. Danny knew it and he didn't want to pay him all that money. Presti thought Perk would fit in OKC, and he was right, but he undervalued injury's impact on Perk's game.

Right now, Perk is overpaid and OKC is thinking about using the amnesty provision on him. I think Danny should try to get both OKC 2014 first round picks (Dallas and their own) and send them Humphries for Perk+PJ3. The pick from the Mavs is heavily protected until 2018, so it could be like found money in 4 years. We can afford to rent cap space for a good return, and next season Perk+Anthony combine for almost 13M in expiring contracts. If Bass isn't traded, make that 19M... not bad.

Tank/showcase/develop season needs to keep on progressing.

[tenn_smoothie]

I'm more interested in the hypothetical of how we get past Miami with no viable backup wings.  Maybe Nate-Rob could've checked em.

we get past them the way we always had - by pounding them into dust inside the blocks and on the glass because we were the better team during those years. not sure whether you noticed, but the Celts usually beat Miami until Danny gutted our interior toughness - you know, the advantage that we held over Miami until Danny for some insane reason decided that we needed to try to be a finesse team like the Heat when we had been beating them as a physically dominant team.

why aren't you asking how it is that they are going to get past us with their weak post lineup ?

I don't know - I played the game at the college level - I was no pro, but it just seems like common sense to me. you play to your strength and you rub the other teams nose in it, which the Celts, with Perk, Garnett, Baby, Jermaine and even Erden at times were rather good at doing. I didn't see that the Heat had any answer inside for our guys.

You're kind of missing the point, though. Danny traded Perk to get Jeff Green... so he could back up Pierce after Marquis Daniels went down with his spinal injury, because we had absolutely no wing depth.

Pierce only played fewer than 30 minutes for fifteen games over the regular season that year... and he ran out of gas because he was tasked guarding 'Melo and LeBron in the playoffs, even with Green to soak up some of that effort.

And you want to go back and see how Pierce holds up if he has to play 40+ minutes a night for the second half of the season and has no help on the defensive end? I don't know if we even get by New York in that scenario.

I understand your concern - but we had several "rental" options (free agent, trades, waived players) that would have filled that backup wing spot very nicely without destroying the core of the team. But Danny's ego got in the way because he wanted a headline trade - which then blew up in his face.

you want to claim I am imagining Perk's skills as being superior to what they were that specific post-season ? he was quite a bit healthier than Shaq by playoff time and you are once again reverting to the thinking that measures Perk's value to the Celtics by his box score numbers. (I feel like Jerry who reminds Elaine about Superman's powers, "We went over that before.")

these Celtic fans who keep clinging to the Shaq was better that year argument really are clueless - talk about a shell of his former self, Shaq was nothing but a cripple by the playoffs.

btw - I know people say his skills declined, but I never did agree with Danny allowing James Posey to get away. seems the big point of contention was one extra year on his contract and Danny wanted to maintain flexibility (for what ?)- I say Posey would have continued to contribute to those post-2008 teams and he would have been exactly the type of player to have gotten us through the 4th quarter drought in Game 7 in 2010.

[tenn_smoothie]

I'm more interested in the hypothetical of how we get past Miami with no viable backup wings.  Maybe Nate-Rob could've checked em.

we get past them the way we always had - by pounding them into dust inside the blocks and on the glass because we were the better team during those years. not sure whether you noticed, but the Celts usually beat Miami until Danny gutted our interior toughness - you know, the advantage that we held over Miami until Danny for some insane reason decided that we needed to try to be a finesse team like the Heat when we had been beating them as a physically dominant team.

why aren't you asking how it is that they are going to get past us with their weak post lineup ?

I don't know - I played the game at the college level - I was no pro, but it just seems like common sense to me. you play to your strength and you rub the other teams nose in it, which the Celts, with Perk, Garnett, Baby, Jermaine and even Erden at times were rather good at doing. I didn't see that the Heat had any answer inside for our guys.

You're kind of missing the point, though. Danny traded Perk to get Jeff Green... so he could back up Pierce after Marquis Daniels went down with his spinal injury, because we had absolutely no wing depth.

Pierce only played fewer than 30 minutes for fifteen games over the regular season that year... and he ran out of gas because he was tasked guarding 'Melo and LeBron in the playoffs, even with Green to soak up some of that effort.

And you want to go back and see how Pierce holds up if he has to play 40+ minutes a night for the second half of the season and has no help on the defensive end? I don't know if we even get by New York in that scenario.

I understand your concern - but we had several "rental" options (free agent, trades, waived players) that would have filled that backup wing spot very nicely without destroying the core of the team. But Danny's ego got in the way because he wanted a headline trade - which then blew up in his face.

you want to claim I am imagining Perk's skills as being superior to what they were that specific post-season ? he was quite a bit healthier than Shaq by playoff time and you are once again reverting to the thinking that measures Perk's value to the Celtics by his box score numbers. (I feel like Jerry who reminds Elaine about Superman's powers, "We went over that before.")

these Celtic fans who keep clinging to the 'Shaq was better that year' argument really are clueless - talk about a shell of his former self, Shaq was nothing but a cripple by the playoffs.

btw - I know people say his skills declined, but I never did agree with Danny allowing James Posey to get away. seems the big point of contention was one extra year on his contract and Danny wanted to maintain flexibility (for what ?)- I say Posey would have continued to contribute to those post-2008 teams and he would have been exactly the type of player to have gotten us through the 4th quarter drought in Game 7 in 2010.