Watercooler Talk: That foul where you lean to defender in the air as you shoot.

[Yoki_IsTheName]

As with most Watercooler Talk posts that I had, these are mostly discussion from me and my basketball friends that I am bringing to the CB Forums to expand further, and, well, to kill time if you guys are bored.

For this case, we had a heated argument (over coffee, tea and hot chocolate) over what is happening in the NBA, and that is the foul call while shooting.

We are split on this, and we would like to bring it to CB Forums and get some clarity to the situation. You know what we are talking about it, it's that foul that happens when a shooter fakes a shot, a defender bites on the fake to challenge, putting himself in the air, and the shooter uses the defender's forward momentum to lean in towards the shooter to get a foul, and possibly get an and 1 of off it.

We have a 50/50 split on this, I'm part of the half who thinks it should be an offensive foul, while the other thinks it's a defensive foul and be kept as is.

Full disclaimer: Before I present both cases we came up with a disclaimer to describe the situation more specifically.

- The shooter HAS to be leaning in towards the defender. We all agree that if the shooter didn't lean, and get hit, it's a foul.

Here are the arguments, or at least a brief summary of it (It was about an hour long debate, I won't write all of the transcripts down).

THE CASE FOR IT BEING A DEFENSIVE FOUL:

It comes down to discipline and proper defending. If you're not disciplined enough, you put yourself at risk for a foul. You can defend a jump shot without needing to jump towards a defender. You can raise your arm as a challenge, or you can simply just try hard to not let your man ope so you don't have to push forward just to get a challenge up. Also, it's just like some other fouls in the paint, where the defender jumps into the defender, initiate contact to get a foul call. If leaning towards a defender while jump shooting should be an offensive foul, then so does a player initiating contact while penetrating and shooting in the rim.

THE CASE FOR IT BEING AN OFFENSIVE FOUL:

The defender is absolutely defenseless while in the air. There's also a great chance that a defender jumping towards a shooter could actually miss contact if the shooter didn't lean in towards him. What do you expect the defender do, move while in mid air? That's impossible. It's as similar as the shooter sticking out his leg to get contact and get a foul. If that's an offensive foul in this age of the game, leaning towards a defender in the air should be as well. It's fabricating a contact that could very well possibly never happen.

So, CB Forums guys and gals. What do you think? Should be a defensive or an offensive foul? Please feel free to argue both cases as well. As I said, I posted this so my friends and I could get some sort of a clarity on this, and well, to have a little bit of discussion among ourselves.

What ya got?

[RockinRyA]

I think it has to be a charge unless the offensive player leaned only slightly forward. A lot of these calls were the shooter leans sideways aka not normal shooting form should be a charge.

[Celtics4ever]

Defender if he is straight up should be entitled to his space, offensive foul.  Now if he is impeding the offensive player's air space that is another question.

[SCeltic34]

If the shooting player is leaning in and creating all of the contact, it should be a no-call in my opinion.  Contact doesn't necessitate a whistle: for example, if a driving player goes in for a layup creates contact with the opposing team's center, but the center went straight up with his jump and arms, it's not a foul.

[Big333223]

If the shooter leans in, I think it's a no-call. I wouldn't call it an offensive foul but it's definitely not a defensive foul if the contact is initiated by the offensive player after the defender is already in the air, no question.

And it bugs me that we see it get called as a defensive foul so much. Especially because Pau Pierce perfected the pump-fake-and-get-fouled move but he did it legitimately. None of the bs leaning in that other players do.

[Denis998]

I think the rule of verticality comes into play. If defender isnt then it is a foul. If straight up, no call.

[jpotter33]

I "lean" ( ) towards it being a no-call or offensive foul rather than a defensive foul. I think that rule probably changes in the next few years, or at least called less.

I also especially hate how three point shooters always fall down to try and get the foul. People like Jamal Crawford, and even Smart, fall down nearly every time they shoot a three to exaggerate contact, even if it was on the hands!

I personally think any contact on the hands AFTER the ball has been released should be a no-call, because it doesn't negatively affect the shot any more than good D would.

[crimson_stallion]

Personally, I think the it depends on the nature of the specific situation.

If the defender is jumping towards the shooter in a way that is obviously too aggressive and on a trajectory to create contact, then defensive foul.

If the Defender is clearly trying to twist to avoid contact, and the shooter leans in to the defender to force contact, then I'd call offensive foul.

If it's too hard to call because both players look like they are trying to do the right thing, then I would call it as a defensive foul and give the offensive player the benefit of the doubt.

I think if you are too "black and white" about how you treat these calls that it allows players to try to abuse the system by falling back on technicalities.

[trickybilly]

I like the idea of rewarding a shooter for getting someone to bite on a pump-fake.

But that point about verticality is true too - not sure if it's a good idea to have one set of rules for the circle and one for the 3 point line...