Yes or No? McHale better than Garnett?

[drza44]

I love KG and he is a special player, but this statement

KG is arguably one of the 2 most 'special' players ever to play the game.  The other being Russell.

makes me hope your eyes are closed..In a 17 year career, he was only the named the best defensive player in the league exactly...ONCE...so second best all time is homer stuff.


Mchale was a very good defender, and a good outside shooter....KG with his back to the basket is awkward and stiff.

Defensive Player of the Year votes tend to be random, and not something I'd consider as gospel.  That said, if you are looking at DPoY votes:

Garnett has finished in the top-3 of the DPoY vote five times, and that's not even including 2009 (when he was clearly going to finish top-2 before the injury) or 2012 (where he was better defensively than Tyson Chandler by literally every defensive measure we have).

IIRC Mutombo, Olajuwon and Ben Wallace are the only others to finish top-3 in DPoY votes at least five times, and I don't think any had more top-3 finishes than that.  So even looking at that award exclusively, Garnett is still right there with an argument for best defender since the award was conceived (or, essentially, best defender since Russell).

[SHAQATTACK]

I saw all the best McHale games and I've seen most of KG best games .   Thats why I was DYING a slow tortured death watching KG waste away at Minn.  KG was BORN to be a Celtic.  I knew he'd be in Green one day. 

Here is how I've settled it in my mind.

If McHale was on the SAME MINN team instead of KG or roles reversed ...NO WAY McHale could have done all the WORK at both ends of the court and everything in between KG did for them.  There record would have been slighlty worse , not bad...just not as good as waht KG did for that team with practically no help.(no larry BIRD or Parrish)

Now put KG on the same team with BIRD < PARRISH , and all the rest and they BLOW out the LAKERS every year , MAGIC or NO MAGIC.... at least two more banners would be hanging.

WOuldn't needed Walton at all.

[Onslaught]

I'd say yes, he was better then KG overall.

[mmmmm]

I love KG and he is a special player, but this statement

KG is arguably one of the 2 most 'special' players ever to play the game.  The other being Russell.

makes me hope your eyes are closed..In a 17 year career, he was only the named the best defensive player in the league exactly...ONCE...so second best all time is homer stuff.


Mchale was a very good defender, and a good outside shooter....KG with his back to the basket is awkward and stiff.

Just like Gold Gloves in baseball don't necessarily correlate at all with good defense, 'named' DPOY and actual DPOY aren't necessarily the same thing.  That's 'media stuff'.

You may accuse my perspective of being from 'advanced stats stuff' if you want.  It's not homer driven at all.

KG's defensive impact over his career as measured in actual points surrendered when he has been on the court has been phenomenal.  His DRtg in 11 of the last 14 years has been below 100.  The 3 times in that span that it wasn't, it was 101. 

McHale never recorded a DRtg below 102.

I've already given the nod for post offense to McHale, though to suggest KG is a 'stiff' implies that you never watched KG in the first 10 years of his career.  There are plenty of highlight vids out there.  Go review a few.

McHale was indeed a good outside shooter.  KG is a phenomenal outside shooter.

[BballTim]

The five greatest PF's in league history are Duncan, Malone, McHale, Garnett, and Barkley.  You could argue the order of those five, but that is them.  None of those guys aside from maybe Duncan are considered top ten players of all time.

Ring counting > all when it comes to "top ten" lists.

  I don't agree with that at all. Having no rings hurts, but having 4-5 doesn't really put you ahead of players having 2-3 or even 1-2 titles.

[drza44]

The main difference between Garnett and Mchale is that Mchale was a 1-on-1 stud, whereas KG's impact is team-level.

Offense: Mchale was a better scorer with better 1-on-1 moves.  KG was still an excellent scorer with excellent 1-on-1 moves, but still, say advantage Mchale.  However, scoring moves <> offense. 

Garnett, with his passing, had a global excellent impact on offense.  He was a "point power forward" for much of his time in Minnesota, and his passing ability played a huge part in it.  The Timberwolves built four consecutive top-6 offenses with Garnett in this role, maintaining an elite offense through 6 different starting point guards and multiple combinations of teammates (with no group having an abundance of talent), with Garnett as the only constant.  Garnett was creating offense for both himself and his teammates, something Mchale never showed himself capable of doing.

Defense: Mchale was a versatile 1-on-1 defender, capable of guarding wings and post players effectively.  Garnett was even more versatile, capable of locking up players as diverse as Tracy McGrady and Yao Ming.  However, again, where KG distances himself from the man that drafted him is in his ability to make a global impact on the defense.  Garnett's pick-and-roll defense, his ability to zone cover large areas of the court and then recover for the rebound, and his ability to play defensive quarterback are on another level from Mchale (or, really, anyone else).

Team role: As some have pointed out, Mchale proved himself a great lieutenant to Bird.  However, he never had to lead.  And while maybe he could have...we'll never know.  Garnett, on the other hand, carried an expansion team to national prominence by himself as "the black wolf" and then came to Boston, where he immediately became the dominant personality among a group of otherwise strong personalities that have been perennial contenders for half a decade.

Garnett IS the Larry Bird of this team, and historically is closer to Larry than Mchale as far as level as well.

[tonyto3690]

McHale was a greater Celtic

Garnett was a great player and it's not even debatable.


McHale was better in the low block but that is literally it.  KG was a better shooter, passer, ball handler, post defender, perimeter defender, rebounder. 

[KeepBigAl]

Defensive Player of the Year votes tend to be random

Random? I didn't know it was a lottery - please explain. It's a sportswriter vote, not fans.

Those other guys you mention, plus Howard, all won the award 3 plus times, beating out KG in his prime, and were up there for many years....dont forget MJ too

He's not the second best defensive player of all time by any measure.

I think KG was an athletic freak and his offensive game very good but not all time great...you could argue Bass is as good or better a jump shooter and that's KGs offensive strength.

I guess KG was a scary shot blocker in his younger days, but not on the Cs. Opposing players are not afraid to go to the lane since Perk left...and I've seen KG back away many times...not all time stuff.

I would have loved to have Mchale this year to feed in the post while the other 5 guys, including KG, where launching 16 footers in crunch time vs Miami.

[arambone]

im gonna go with mchale.

Kg wasnt really a clutch scorer throughout his career. Hes better at clutch scoring now, but he mostly was simply not willing and able to takeover a game offensively like mchale could.

Being unselfish is great, but there were many times those wolves needed kg to take over scoring wise, and kg was only parttially able to do so.

Mchale could have been a better top dog than kg, although its all speculation because mchale never had his own team like kg did.

Sure, mchale had bird passing to him, but a lot of those passes were simple entry passes into the post that any nba player can make. Mchale was often double teamed and scored at will anyway. It would have been the exact same on any other team, except mchale would have had more post up opportunities.

Playing with bird was an advantage, but it was also a disadvantage in ways legacy-wise.

Lets also remember that kg benefited from hundreds of hours of tutoring from mchale, while mchale was doing things that had rarely or ever been seen at the time.

Being unselfish is great. Being able to put up 40 at will when needed by your team is a kind of leadership kg just didnt have.

I think mchale could have averaged 34 ppg or more for 5+ years on another team.

Mchale also saw his career cut short by injuries. Kgs longevity makes him look better, but i'll take mchale as a franchise cornerstone.

[celtsfan84]

im gonna go with mchale.

Kg wasnt really a clutch scorer throughout his career. Hes better at clutch scoring now, but he mostly was simply not willing and able to takeover a game offensively like mchale could.

Being unselfish is great, but there were many times those wolves needed kg to take over scoring wise, and kg was only parttially able to do so.

Mchale could have been a better top dog than kg, although its all speculation because mchale never had his own team like kg did.

Sure, mchale had bird passing to him, but a lot of those passes were simple entry passes into the post that any nba player can make. Mchale was often double teamed and scored at will anyway. It would have been the exact same on any other team, except mchale would have had more post up opportunities.

Playing with bird was an advantage, but it was also a disadvantage in ways legacy-wise.

Lets also remember that kg benefited from hundreds of hours of tutoring from mchale, while mchale was doing things that had rarely or ever been seen at the time.

Being unselfish is great. Being able to put up 40 at will when needed by your team is a kind of leadership kg just didnt have.

I think mchale could have averaged 34 ppg or more for 5+ years on another team.
Mchale also saw his career cut short by injuries. Kgs longevity makes him look better, but i'll take mchale as a franchise cornerstone.

34 PPG?  That's Michael Jordan territory. Easy there. In fact, Michael only went over 34 twice in his career.

So you're basically saying McHale is the best scorer in NBA history?

[arambone]

almost definitely hyperbolic on my part, not that we'll ever know. 30+ ppg for a few years no stretch at all though. Km averaged 10 less fga per game than jordan, and shot a significantly higher fg%, as you'd expect.

One of the great scorers of all time though, without stern-assists 4-5 times a game.

[drza44]

Defensive Player of the Year votes tend to be random

Random? I didn't know it was a lottery - please explain. It's a sportswriter vote, not fans.

Those other guys you mention, plus Howard, all won the award 3 plus times, beating out KG in his prime, and were up there for many years....dont forget MJ too

He's not the second best defensive player of all time by any measure.

I think KG was an athletic freak and his offensive game very good but not all time great...you could argue Bass is as good or better a jump shooter and that's KGs offensive strength.

I guess KG was a scary shot blocker in his younger days, but not on the Cs. Opposing players are not afraid to go to the lane since Perk left...and I've seen KG back away many times...not all time stuff.

I would have loved to have Mchale this year to feed in the post while the other 5 guys, including KG, where launching 16 footers in crunch time vs Miami.

"Random" in the sense that most sports writers don't really care to dig in depth into who really plays the best defense.  They like a storyline, or obvious stats.  Tyson Chandler won this year because the Knicks' defense improving was a good story.  Marcus Camby won his because he blocked a lot of shots. Etc.

That said, as I pointed out, even using just DPoY votes KG is on the very short list.  KG also has the record for most 1st team all D selections in league history, a separate corroborating point from different voters.  KG is also #1 on defense over the past decade in every multi-year adjusted +/- study that has ever been published...periods that include all of Howard's career, to name the player that you referenced.

You don't have to agree that KG is best defensive player since Russell.  But to act as though he doesn't have a case would be silly.

[KeepBigAl]

and hes tied with 4 other players for that honor....tim duncan has more selections overall and many have won the big honor more times.

he is not an intimating lane presence whatsoever, averaging less than a block a game over the last 3 years in total...a far cry from mr russell


you can say he's a great defender, but second all time is what is silly here

[mmmmm]

and hes tied with 4 other players for that honor....tim duncan has more selections overall and many have won the big honor more times.

he is not an intimating lane presence whatsoever, averaging less than a block a game over the last 3 years in total...a far cry from mr russell


you can say he's a great defender, but second all time is what is silly here

Nah, what's kinda silly is talking about block stats when defense is primarily about preventing points.

And at preventing points, Garnett has been truly phenomenal.  As I posted earlier, 14 straight years of DRtg of 101 or lower, 11 of those under 100 - and many of those years on otherwise really, really bad T-Wolves teams.  The on/off numbers were rather extreme.

No intimidating lane presence?  Then why do teams that oppose his units turn into jump shooters?

You mention the last 3 years, well here are the Celtic's rankings the last 5 for opponent FG% and DRtg:
year oppFG%  DRtg
2012   1      1
2011   2      1
2010  10      5
2009   1      2
2008   1      1


The only year that the team was not ranked in the top 2 during that span was 2010 - and that was clearly because KG took much of the year to recover his strength and mobility after the knee surgery.  It is notable that as he finally got fully healthy, the team became just stifling on defense during the playoff run that ended just minutes short of a title.

Opposing teams shoot such low FG% because they are not taking shots in close.  That's because they are finding it difficult to either drive or pass to the post.   So they take jump shots from outside.

[KGs Knee]

Absolutely agree with DRZA and mmmmm.

KG's best defensive ability has always been his ability to prevent players from even getting a path to the lane.

When you can guard multiple positions on the court, prevent layups/force jumpshots and rebound exceptionally, you are about the perfect defender.  Especially when you are also an exceptional team defender.

Stats aren't even really necessary.  It's obvious to see the effect he has on that end of the court.