Renouncing players to use "Cap Space": Bad Idea

[Bombastic Jones]

Great original post.  Thanks.

[Bombastic Jones]

I am not going to extrapolate from our playoff run. We missed the Bulls without Rose, Heat without Bosh for a bunch of games, and I don't see Pierce and KG being any faster next season. Wilcox is often injured and he and Dooling aren't getting any younger either.

I don't think it is fair to knock the C's because other teams got hit with the injury bug when you consider that we lost Green, Wilcox, JO, and Bradley this season.

[LarBrd33]

We'd probably be above the "apron" after the exception was used (assuming we had already signed Jeff Green, KG, Ray, Bass, etc)

I'm eyeballing the numbers and I suspect the Celtics would have to spend close to $30m on KG, Green, and Allen combined to put the Celtics into a position where they lose the full MLE, but I really don't feel like figuring out right now how close.  The only other scenario I could see is if some other team wants to throw crazy money at Ray Allen and gives the Celtics some big salary back in a sign-and-trade.  With the new rules increase the allowable salary gap in trades for non-tax teams, the best-case scenario might be bringing almost everyone back except for Ray Allen, who gets S&T to a team that will overpay him in exchange for a guy making something like $12m while providing closer to $7m worth of production.

I guess what you're saying is that if we exceed the cap (to bring back our own guys) but keep it under the "apron" we could actually use the NON-TAXPAYER MID-LEVEL EXCEPTION

Yes.  Avoiding dipping into luxury tax territory would also mean the team still has the bi-annual exception.

So in other words... all the more reason to forget about "cap room" and just bring back our boys for reasonable money.  I'd rather keep EVERYONE and have 5 mil to take a chance on a guy like Greg Oden... as opposed to the "25 mil cap space" idea where you maybe add a Chris Kaman, but say goodbye to Ray, Bass and other key contributors.

Ride out two more season, add some youth and let's transition smoothly to the future.

[KGs Knee]

The only problems I have with what's been discussed so far are:

-The cap is more likely to be closer to $61mil from what I've heard.

-We can't renounce Bass.  He has a player option, it's his choice not ours.

Otherwise, unless we can swing a trade for someone special, I agree this is probably the best route.

I'm still holding out hope though that KG will be the ultimate team guy and play for the minimum.  What does he need the money for anyways?  Ray I could take or leave.  I just don't think he's all that important anymore.

[LooseCannon]

-We can't renounce Bass.  He has a player option, it's his choice not ours.

He can be renounced if he declines his player option.  There are some people who think he is likely to do so because it is in his economic best interest.

[guava_wrench]

I am not going to extrapolate from our playoff run. We missed the Bulls without Rose, Heat without Bosh for a bunch of games, and I don't see Pierce and KG being any faster next season. Wilcox is often injured and he and Dooling aren't getting any younger either.

I don't think it is fair to knock the C's because other teams got hit with the injury bug when you consider that we lost Green, Wilcox, JO, and Bradley this season.

It is fair because all of those guys combined aren't as significant as Rose or as Bosh (esp when Bosh is a perennial all star and on a team where he is their only good big).

Btw, we didn't lose JO this season -- he was lost long ago. The odds of him playing through the season were almost nil.

[LarBrd33]

-We can't renounce Bass.  He has a player option, it's his choice not ours.

I was under the impression that we hold the bird rights to Bass regardless if he picks up his player option.  Even if he opts out of his deal, we still retain his bird rights and can sign him to a new deal regardless of the salary cap.  So in other words... even if we've already given healthy contracts to KG, Ray and Jeff Green and exceeded the salary cap we can still give Bass a multi-year deal making 5-6 mil a year, because we retain his bird rights.  No?

[KGs Knee]

-We can't renounce Bass.  He has a player option, it's his choice not ours.

I was under the impression that we hold the bird rights to Bass regardless if he picks up his player option.  Even if he opts out of his deal, we still retain his bird rights and can sign him to a new deal regardless of the salary cap.  So in other words... even if we've already given healthy contracts to KG, Ray and Jeff Green and exceeded the salary cap we can still give Bass a multi-year deal making 5-6 mil a year, because we retain his bird rights.  No?

-We can't renounce Bass.  He has a player option, it's his choice not ours.

He can be renounced if he declines his player option.  There are some people who think he is likely to do so because it is in his economic best interest.

Yes, you're both right, if he does decline his option we still hold his bird rights and we could renounce him.  Thing is, I've heard the opposite, that he will pick up his option.

If he does decline, I can't say I'd be sad to see him go though.  Especially if we are able to somehow land Josh Smith.

It's a pipe dream most likely anyways (not too likely Atlanta trades Smith for just picks and/or Bass), but if we could somehow pry Smith from Atlanta for picks only (or including Bass), I'd gladly show Bass the door.

Here's my fantasy roster:
Pierce-16.8m
Smith-13.2m
Rondo-11.0m
Garnett-5.0m
Allen-5.0m
Green-5.0m
Bradley-1.6m
Johnson-1.1m
Moore-0.8m

Total (including roster holds (3x.5m=1.5m))=61m

Additional roster:
Wilcox-Space Execption (2.5m approx.)
Pietrus-Vet Min (1.2m approx.)
Stiemsma-Vet Min (0.8m approx)

Again, I fully well know it's a pipe dream to accomplish this, but it is possible.

[colincb]

-We can't renounce Bass.  He has a player option, it's his choice not ours.

I was under the impression that we hold the bird rights to Bass regardless if he picks up his player option.  Even if he opts out of his deal, we still retain his bird rights and can sign him to a new deal regardless of the salary cap.  So in other words... even if we've already given healthy contracts to KG, Ray and Jeff Green and exceeded the salary cap we can still give Bass a multi-year deal making 5-6 mil a year, because we retain his bird rights.  No?

from the FAQ

[25] "To qualify for this [Bird] exception a player essentially must play for three seasons without being waived or changing teams as a free agent." and

[32] "When a player is traded, his new team inherits his Bird rights. For example, if a player signs a three-year contract, plays two and a half seasons with that team, and is traded at the trade deadline in the third season, then his new team has full Bird rights following the third season."

Bass was with ORL for two years after signing there as a free agent and came here via trade for one year so he qualifies for Bird rights if he decides to go into free agency.

[LarBrd33]

Here's my fantasy roster:
Pierce-16.8m
Smith-13.2m
Rondo-11.0m
Garnett-5.0m
Allen-5.0m
Green-5.0m
Bradley-1.6m
Johnson-1.1m
Moore-0.8m

Total (including roster holds (3x.5m=1.5m))=61m

Additional roster:
Wilcox-Space Execption (2.5m approx.)
Pietrus-Vet Min (1.2m approx.)
Stiemsma-Vet Min (0.8m approx)

Again, I fully well know it's a pipe dream to accomplish this, but it is possible.

I'm cool with that roster.  I mean... if we actually think we can sign KG, Ray and Jeff Green to 5 mil each.. go for it.  I'm just operating under the assumption that one or all of those guys will require more money.  But I'm an admitted pessimist.  For all I know, KG and Ray are willing to take the vet minimum (unlikely, btw... an article I read brought up a good point that KG was one of the most vocal players during the lockout speaking out against owners short-changing players and crying poverty.  Interpret that however you want, but it would seem he would want to be paid appropriately for his talents).

[goCeltics]

25 mill plus the room and bi annual exception

You don't have the bi-annual exception to work with if you use the room MLE.

didn't realise, tp for you sir

anyways i really like g wallace or ilyasova, sure they can get another big for the min, or maybe wilcox will agree to vet min.

Danny screwed up by not getting greg to agree to a 2 min year option before the year started when greg was struggling to make a roster.

[goCeltics]

Only problem is they don't have greg's bird rights, i am pretty sure they lost chris wilcox non bird rights when they waived him