Comparing '04-'05 Pierce with '11-'12 Rondo...

[Weediam]

Ages:
Pierce: 27
Rondo: 26

Numbers:
Rondo: 14, 9 and 5 (all above career averages, hitting his prime)
Pierce: 21, 6, 4
Both have pretty good supporting help: Paul with Ricky Davis and 'Toine, Rondo with an aging big 3

State of the team:
2005: Finished as the 3rd seed in a bad Eastern conference with a 45-37 record, pretty mediocre team with no shot at a title
2011/12: On pace to sneak in the playoffs in a strong eastern conference, similar mediocrity and very little shot at a title
   Both teams strong defensively with some scoring issues and finishing games down the stretch.

Trade rumors swirled around Paul Pierce during that era Celtic team much as they have done with Rondo recently. Pierce couldn't do it on his own, Rondo can't do it on his own. Pierce nearly gave the series away against Indiana getting himself tossed in a tight game 6 (though the C's would lay an egg in game 7 anyway, 'toine and Ricky Davis bailed him out). Rondo throws a ball at the ref for a no-call and continually has a lack-luster attitude. Mid-twenties and frustrated with mediocrity in both cases.

The primary thing I'm looking at here is attitude of the player and aptitude of the teams. Danny stuck it out with Pierce in hopes of him maturing as a leader (which he did) and adding key pieces around him (which he did). He knew the way to win a title was pick a prime cornerstone and make some bold moves. This is what he must do for the next 1-2 years!

My point: Keep Rondo.

Many want to make the case that Rondo should be out because of his attitude and lack of leadership. Leadership comes with time. His talent is too good to shipped out for a washed-up caveman (Pau)or a poor-man's version of himself.

For those of you who want to ship him out because of attitude, remember Paul throwing his jersey into the crowd during a tight, important game 6 on the road when he should have been focusing on winning.......look at him now.

[Celtics Fan]

Rondo is the black Cousy

[TitleMaster]

Ages:
Pierce: 27
Rondo: 26

Numbers:
Rondo: 14, 9 and 5 (all above career averages, hitting his prime)
Pierce: 21, 6, 4
Both have pretty good supporting help: Paul with Ricky Davis and 'Toine, Rondo with an aging big 3

State of the team:
2005: Finished as the 3rd seed in a bad Eastern conference with a 45-37 record, pretty mediocre team with no shot at a title
2011/12: On pace to sneak in the playoffs in a strong eastern conference, similar mediocrity and very little shot at a title
   Both teams strong defensively with some scoring issues and finishing games down the stretch.

Trade rumors swirled around Paul Pierce during that era Celtic team much as they have done with Rondo recently. Pierce couldn't do it on his own, Rondo can't do it on his own. Pierce nearly gave the series away against Indiana getting himself tossed in a tight game 6 (though the C's would lay an egg in game 7 anyway, 'toine and Ricky Davis bailed him out). Rondo throws a ball at the ref for a no-call and continually has a lack-luster attitude. Mid-twenties and frustrated with mediocrity in both cases.

First thing first, from '01 to '05, post-stabbing incident, Pierce was Mr Fourth Quarter. I think it was rather clear to any viewer that if KG and Ray were around at the time, even if they were 30 years of age, we'd have a mini-dynasty.

I suspect that we'd still need a defensive PG, not named Payton, to back up Kenny. But that, for the most part, would have been our only glaring hole, as far as a backcourt.

Here, it's pretty clear that teams only need to use Rondo's one-on-one defender, as a help defender, since Rondo, by himself, won't take a high percentage shot when open. If Pierce's defender did that, from '01 to '05, we'd be working on banner 19 or 20 today. Thus, there's no comparison between the two. When Pierce bullets a pass, he's not doing it to add to his assist's total, he's doing it because he's not in a position to score immediately.

[Carhole]

are you really comparing the "good" supporting cast of Ricky Davis and Antoine Walker with what Rondo has had to play with?

Seriously?

Completely different players with completely different career paths. PP thrown into utter chaos with pitino and a bunch of less than stellar attitudes as teammates can help create a bad attitude.

Rondo has spent these past 5 years in almost the perfect situation for a player with his skill set and still has attitude problems.

Not saying Rondo has to go, saying you are comparing apples and oranges. The point holds no water

[TitleMaster]

are you really comparing the "good" supporting cast of Ricky Davis and Antoine Walker with what Rondo has had to play with?

Seriously?

Completely different players with completely different career paths. PP thrown into utter chaos with pitino and a bunch of less than stellar attitudes as teammates can help create a bad attitude.

After 4 years of playoff woes, it's no wonder that Pierce would get irate, from time to time.

Rondo has spent these past 5 years in almost the perfect situation for a player with his skill set and still has attitude problems.

Not saying Rondo has to go, saying you are comparing apples and oranges. The point holds no water

Yep, remember Mike Bibby in the WCF '02 (& beyond), when he was open, he took his shots. Thus, everyone took him serious when he was on the open floor. No one's taking Rondo seriously.

And finally, & even Magic will say, you don't win a finals on a run & gun system alone. Fine, half the time, him, Coop, and Scott, would run & gun whenever the opportunity arose, however, Magic also ran a half-court set, getting the ball to Kareem down low for a skyhook. That's when Kareem & Worthy would engage their one-two punch. If Magic was sitting around, waiting to make 'an assist', the Celtics would have won most of the 80s finals.

[BballTim]

When Pierce bullets a pass, he's not doing it to add to his assist's total, he's doing it because he's not in a position to score immediately.

  This is absolute nonsense, no different than saying that PP shot the ball so much more than he passed it because he was a selfish ballhog.

[Weediam]

Ages:
Pierce: 27
Rondo: 26

Numbers:
Rondo: 14, 9 and 5 (all above career averages, hitting his prime)
Pierce: 21, 6, 4
Both have pretty good supporting help: Paul with Ricky Davis and 'Toine, Rondo with an aging big 3

State of the team:
2005: Finished as the 3rd seed in a bad Eastern conference with a 45-37 record, pretty mediocre team with no shot at a title
2011/12: On pace to sneak in the playoffs in a strong eastern conference, similar mediocrity and very little shot at a title
   Both teams strong defensively with some scoring issues and finishing games down the stretch.

Trade rumors swirled around Paul Pierce during that era Celtic team much as they have done with Rondo recently. Pierce couldn't do it on his own, Rondo can't do it on his own. Pierce nearly gave the series away against Indiana getting himself tossed in a tight game 6 (though the C's would lay an egg in game 7 anyway, 'toine and Ricky Davis bailed him out). Rondo throws a ball at the ref for a no-call and continually has a lack-luster attitude. Mid-twenties and frustrated with mediocrity in both cases.

First thing first, from '01 to '05, post-stabbing incident, Pierce was Mr Fourth Quarter. I think it was rather clear to any viewer that if KG and Ray were around at the time, even if they were 30 years of age, we'd have a mini-dynasty.

I suspect that we'd still need a defensive PG, not named Payton, to back up Kenny. But that, for the most part, would have been our only glaring hole, as far as a backcourt.

Here, it's pretty clear that teams only need to use Rondo's one-on-one defender, as a help defender, since Rondo, by himself, won't take a high percentage shot when open. If Pierce's defender did that, from '01 to '05, we'd be working on banner 19 or 20 today. Thus, there's no comparison between the two. When Pierce bullets a pass, he's not doing it to add to his assist's total, he's doing it because he's not in a position to score immediately.

First thing's first, I'm not simply comparing their games. I put their stats up there just to show that Rondo puts up some solid numbers in comparison to Pierce in that era. You won't find a bigger Paul Pierce fan than me, he is my hero and my favorite Celtic of all time. His scoring is uncanny, that it why I'm not simply saying "ronndo and '05 pierce are the same player"

The comparison comes with where they are in their career at these points. No one (at least nationally) was saying Pierce was in the upper-tier of stars then (in fact he was probably underrated a bit). Similarly, people tread water when they talk  of Rondo as a star, usually sure to mention Rose, Westbrook, etc before him.

Again, Pierce was talked about in trade rumors frequently, citing his attitude and ability to lead the team. Who pumped the team up for the greatest 4th quarter comeback of all time, it was 'toine, not Pierce. He only emerged as a leader when Ray and Kevin came aboard...he even had trouble with doc benching him in '06 (Doc troubles? sounds familiar)!

Comparing how teams play them defensively is nonsense as well. Pierce is a shooter and no one would even think to play that style of D. Anyways, I don't want to get into comparing their games because you're right, they don't really compare. Ones a slashing SG and one a pass-first PG.

Again, just looking at the big picture of where Pierce was and our perspective of him vs. Rondo today. I think there are similarities here. Rondo could emerge as a career Celtic in an era where this doesn't happen much.

Also, as far as his jumper and FT shooting, I'm 100% positive it will only get better from age 26-30. Though he might loose speed, he will start knocking that down more consistently as most players hit their shooting prime in that age range