2012 T-Wolves > 2012 Celtics

[bostonpatriot]

Hopefully people stop hating on Kahn, though.  Before this season, things seemed totally chaotic and awful over there in Minnesota, but this season it appears his plan has come together beautifully.

Eh, don't give Kahn too much credit.  He drafted Rubio (who fell in the draft) and Pekovic (who was projected by everyone at #31).  Otherwise, what has he done that has been special?  Maybe the Michael Beasley trade, when Miami absolutely gave him away? 

McHale drafted Pekovic, not Kahn.

McHale was pretty good drafting bigs. Garnett, Love (trading down in an excellent deal), Pekovic. All incredibly high value picks. The opposite drafting guards: Foye, McCants, William Avery, Corey Brewer. Wally was the only good pick.

Actually Kahn was trying to trade Pekovic. He signed Darko as the long-term starter at the 5.

Kahn's largest merit was understanding there was no point in trying to build around Al Jefferson.

[LooseCannon]

Kahn's largest merit was understanding there was no point in trying to build around Al Jefferson.

Kahn > Some CelticsBlog forum posters.

[Moranis]

In the past thirteen seasons, since the Bulls relinquished their dominance on the NBA, there have been six separate teams who have won championships.  5 for the Lakers, 4 for the Spurs, and one apiece for Miami, Dallas, Boston and Detroit.  Of those championship teams, only the Spurs and the Miami team have been led by a top 5 draft pick that the team drafted themselves.  That's less than half of the championships won by getting in the top five and drafting a franchise player in what I consider to be the current era of the NBA.  

Based on that history of recent champions, clearly you don't need to land in the top half of the lottery to position yourself to become a championship contender.  There are other ways to build your team than tanking.

The Celtics wouldn't have won a title without Ray and KG, who were only acquired because the Celtics had the 5th pick in the draft to trade.

The Mavs were led by a superstar drafted in the top 10 (Dirk was 9th).  I doubt that with the greatly improved foreign scouting of modern times that a foreign star like Dirk would fall to 9, though.

You're right about the Pistons and Lakers, however.  But I have serious doubts about the ability of other teams to successfully emulate the models used by those two teams in putting together a championship team.  

The Pistons were kind of a "everything coming together perfectly" situation -- a handful of All-Star wing players and an undrafted four-time DPOY.  In any case, they only won once and then fell short every time after that.  I think some might argue that the league was a kind of weak the season that the Pistons won it all.

The Lakers won titles with two superstar big men -- one who was poached from the Magic in free agency with the lure of the spotlight of LA, and the other acquired in one of the most lopsided trades in NBA history.

So you are admitting that the Pistons and the Lakers are an exception to your rule.  Dallas is somewhat of an exception, too.  Sure, foreign scouting is better, but finding a star player at number 9 is still well within the realm of possibility.  the Celtics got Pierce at number 10.  Yes, they used a high draft pick to help turn their existing assets into their championship team, but they didn't tank for many years in a row. The Spurs tanked more than a decade ago to get Duncan, but have been a playoff team ever since. 

You need to define what you mean by needing to reach the bottom to build your way back up and needing "multiple high draft picks." You really seem to be trying to mold history to fit your own theory.

The Lakers have won 5 titles with a lottery pick they drafted as the best or second best player and then added a second lottery pick for the last 2 of those who was a starter and integral member of said teams.  

Boston absolutely tanked 2 seasons, they just wasted the first lottery pick (the foye pick that was traded for telfair and one less year on a worthless big contract) and then traded the second for Ray Allen.  

[Moranis]

Hopefully people stop hating on Kahn, though.  Before this season, things seemed totally chaotic and awful over there in Minnesota, but this season it appears his plan has come together beautifully.

Eh, don't give Kahn too much credit.  He drafted Rubio (who fell in the draft) and Pekovic (who was projected by everyone at #31).  Otherwise, what has he done that has been special?  Maybe the Michael Beasley trade, when Miami absolutely gave him away? 

McHale drafted Pekovic, not Kahn.

McHale was pretty good drafting bigs. Garnett, Love (trading down in an excellent deal), Pekovic. All incredibly high value picks. The opposite drafting guards: Foye, McCants, William Avery, Corey Brewer. Wally was the only good pick.

Actually Kahn was trying to trade Pekovic. He signed Darko as the long-term starter at the 5.

Kahn's largest merit was understanding there was no point in trying to build around Al Jefferson.

McHale actually drafted Brandon Roy, it was really for Portland who acquired the pick from Boston.  Imagine if Minnesota would have actually kept Roy and added him to Garnett.  Maybe Minnesota isn't willing to make that trade with Boston at that point. 

[PosImpos]

In the past thirteen seasons, since the Bulls relinquished their dominance on the NBA, there have been six separate teams who have won championships.  5 for the Lakers, 4 for the Spurs, and one apiece for Miami, Dallas, Boston and Detroit.  Of those championship teams, only the Spurs and the Miami team have been led by a top 5 draft pick that the team drafted themselves.  That's less than half of the championships won by getting in the top five and drafting a franchise player in what I consider to be the current era of the NBA. 

Based on that history of recent champions, clearly you don't need to land in the top half of the lottery to position yourself to become a championship contender.  There are other ways to build your team than tanking.

The Celtics wouldn't have won a title without Ray and KG, who were only acquired because the Celtics had the 5th pick in the draft to trade.

The Mavs were led by a superstar drafted in the top 10 (Dirk was 9th).  I doubt that with the greatly improved foreign scouting of modern times that a foreign star like Dirk would fall to 9, though.

You're right about the Pistons and Lakers, however.  But I have serious doubts about the ability of other teams to successfully emulate the models used by those two teams in putting together a championship team. 

The Pistons were kind of a "everything coming together perfectly" situation -- a handful of All-Star wing players and an undrafted four-time DPOY.  In any case, they only won once and then fell short every time after that.  I think some might argue that the league was a kind of weak the season that the Pistons won it all.

The Lakers won titles with two superstar big men -- one who was poached from the Magic in free agency with the lure of the spotlight of LA, and the other acquired in one of the most lopsided trades in NBA history.

So you are admitting that the Pistons and the Lakers are an exception to your rule.  Dallas is somewhat of an exception, too.  Sure, foreign scouting is better, but finding a star player at number 9 is still well within the realm of possibility.  the Celtics got Pierce at number 10.  Yes, they used a high draft pick to help turn their existing assets into their championship team, but they didn't tank for many years in a row. The Spurs tanked more than a decade ago to get Duncan, but have been a playoff team ever since. 

You need to define what you mean by needing to reach the bottom to build your way back up and needing "multiple high draft picks." You really seem to be trying to mold history to fit your own theory.

The Lakers have won 5 titles with a lottery pick they drafted as the best or second best player and then added a second lottery pick for the last 2 of those who was a starter and integral member of said teams. 

Boston absolutely tanked 2 seasons, they just wasted the first lottery pick (the foye pick that was traded for telfair and one less year on a worthless big contract) and then traded the second for Ray Allen. 

Moranis said it for me.

I view the Lakers and Pistons as two different models that the Celtics (and almost any other team in the league) cannot hope to emulate.

[Celtics18]

In the past thirteen seasons, since the Bulls relinquished their dominance on the NBA, there have been six separate teams who have won championships.  5 for the Lakers, 4 for the Spurs, and one apiece for Miami, Dallas, Boston and Detroit.  Of those championship teams, only the Spurs and the Miami team have been led by a top 5 draft pick that the team drafted themselves.  That's less than half of the championships won by getting in the top five and drafting a franchise player in what I consider to be the current era of the NBA.  

Based on that history of recent champions, clearly you don't need to land in the top half of the lottery to position yourself to become a championship contender.  There are other ways to build your team than tanking.

The Celtics wouldn't have won a title without Ray and KG, who were only acquired because the Celtics had the 5th pick in the draft to trade.

The Mavs were led by a superstar drafted in the top 10 (Dirk was 9th).  I doubt that with the greatly improved foreign scouting of modern times that a foreign star like Dirk would fall to 9, though.

You're right about the Pistons and Lakers, however.  But I have serious doubts about the ability of other teams to successfully emulate the models used by those two teams in putting together a championship team.  

The Pistons were kind of a "everything coming together perfectly" situation -- a handful of All-Star wing players and an undrafted four-time DPOY.  In any case, they only won once and then fell short every time after that.  I think some might argue that the league was a kind of weak the season that the Pistons won it all.

The Lakers won titles with two superstar big men -- one who was poached from the Magic in free agency with the lure of the spotlight of LA, and the other acquired in one of the most lopsided trades in NBA history.

So you are admitting that the Pistons and the Lakers are an exception to your rule.  Dallas is somewhat of an exception, too.  Sure, foreign scouting is better, but finding a star player at number 9 is still well within the realm of possibility.  the Celtics got Pierce at number 10.  Yes, they used a high draft pick to help turn their existing assets into their championship team, but they didn't tank for many years in a row. The Spurs tanked more than a decade ago to get Duncan, but have been a playoff team ever since. 

You need to define what you mean by needing to reach the bottom to build your way back up and needing "multiple high draft picks." You really seem to be trying to mold history to fit your own theory.

The Lakers have won 5 titles with a lottery pick they drafted as the best or second best player and then added a second lottery pick for the last 2 of those who was a starter and integral member of said teams.  

Boston absolutely tanked 2 seasons, they just wasted the first lottery pick (the foye pick that was traded for telfair and one less year on a worthless big contract) and then traded the second for Ray Allen.  

Well, you can certainly find Jeff Green and Randy Foye type talent outside of the high lottery.

[PosImpos]

In the past thirteen seasons, since the Bulls relinquished their dominance on the NBA, there have been six separate teams who have won championships.  5 for the Lakers, 4 for the Spurs, and one apiece for Miami, Dallas, Boston and Detroit.  Of those championship teams, only the Spurs and the Miami team have been led by a top 5 draft pick that the team drafted themselves.  That's less than half of the championships won by getting in the top five and drafting a franchise player in what I consider to be the current era of the NBA. 

Based on that history of recent champions, clearly you don't need to land in the top half of the lottery to position yourself to become a championship contender.  There are other ways to build your team than tanking.

The Celtics wouldn't have won a title without Ray and KG, who were only acquired because the Celtics had the 5th pick in the draft to trade.

The Mavs were led by a superstar drafted in the top 10 (Dirk was 9th).  I doubt that with the greatly improved foreign scouting of modern times that a foreign star like Dirk would fall to 9, though.

You're right about the Pistons and Lakers, however.  But I have serious doubts about the ability of other teams to successfully emulate the models used by those two teams in putting together a championship team. 

The Pistons were kind of a "everything coming together perfectly" situation -- a handful of All-Star wing players and an undrafted four-time DPOY.  In any case, they only won once and then fell short every time after that.  I think some might argue that the league was a kind of weak the season that the Pistons won it all.

The Lakers won titles with two superstar big men -- one who was poached from the Magic in free agency with the lure of the spotlight of LA, and the other acquired in one of the most lopsided trades in NBA history.

So you are admitting that the Pistons and the Lakers are an exception to your rule.  Dallas is somewhat of an exception, too.  Sure, foreign scouting is better, but finding a star player at number 9 is still well within the realm of possibility.  the Celtics got Pierce at number 10.  Yes, they used a high draft pick to help turn their existing assets into their championship team, but they didn't tank for many years in a row. The Spurs tanked more than a decade ago to get Duncan, but have been a playoff team ever since. 

You need to define what you mean by needing to reach the bottom to build your way back up and needing "multiple high draft picks." You really seem to be trying to mold history to fit your own theory.

The Lakers have won 5 titles with a lottery pick they drafted as the best or second best player and then added a second lottery pick for the last 2 of those who was a starter and integral member of said teams. 

Boston absolutely tanked 2 seasons, they just wasted the first lottery pick (the foye pick that was traded for telfair and one less year on a worthless big contract) and then traded the second for Ray Allen. 

Well, you can certainly find Jeff Green and Randy Foye type talent outside of the high lottery.

Yeah, but you can't find players who are regarded as assets the way Foye and Green were when they first entered the league.

[LB3533]

I really don't think you can argue for the T-Wolves path of building their franchise.

They haven't won a title.

To argue against Boston right now is asinine since we won a chip with our method.

There have also been countless of teams that have tanked and drafted a top pick player who turned out to stink or get injured and those teams never really sniffed a championship run.