Author Topic: The Next Celtics Contender Won't Be Built Through Free Agency  (Read 3046 times)

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Offline LooseCannon

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When this current squad's run is over, the next Celtics contending team will be built through trades and draft picks, not free agency.  So, those who advocate not signing anyone past 2012 (when Kevin Garnett's contract expires) in hopes of creating massive cap space are completely and utterly wrong about how to build a post-Big Three Boston squad around Rajon Rondo.

As we are about to find out, clearing cap space to sign big free agents doesn't mean you will sign any.  Teams will panic and overpay second-tier free agents when they don't get first-tier free agents.  And 2012 doesn't look like a good free agent class anyways.  Boston has never been seen as a great free agent destination. It's better to develop trade assets to acquire a star disgruntled by having to play for a perennial non-contender.  With some of these teams supposedly seeking to follow the Celtics model and bring together multiple max contract guys, some of those teams are going to fail to develop chemistry and look to move one of their big contracts a few years from now. 

In rebuilding, the Celtics need to acquire and develop trade assets.  However, this has to be tempered by the fact that Boston is still a legitimate title contender.  Even a 10% chance means you win once a decade on average, and it's foolish to turn that down if you care mainly about winning titles.

All player movement should be evaluated in terms of how it impacts Boston's trade assets.  For example, the mid-season acquisition of Nate Robinson arguably had more potential impact beyond the 2009-2010 than during.  It turned Eddie House, who was clearly not a trade asset, and JR Giddens and Bill Walker, two trade assets with declining value because they were clearly not going to play under Doc Rivers because of their inability to contribute on defense, into Nate Robinson, a player who other teams might actually want.  Since the Celtics hold Robinson's non-Bird rights, it means they can sign him to a contract worth up to 120% of his previous contract.  Since Robinson made $4 million last season, it means that Boston can offer just as much money as any team, unless that team is crazy enough to throw almost all of the mid-level exemption at Robinson.  Eddie House signed a 2-year $5.6 million contract in 2008, while Glen Davis got 2 years for $6.5 million.  If Robinson is resigned for a contract in the same range, he provides insurance that allows Avery Bradley to be sent to the D-League if necessary and brought along slowly, but is also a player that teams might be willing to acquire because they actually want him and not because of salary cap considerations.  So, it makes a lot of sense to try and retain Nate Robinson unless the team decides that Robinson will regress and end up rotting on the bench as amalcontent.  Personally, I would feel comfortable with Robinson as long as Doc Rivers also returns to mentor him like he did Rondo.  Even if you think that Robinson isn't the best fit for this team as a back-up PG, as long as he is serviceable, he is a better option than a vet minimum pick-up who would be a slightly better player on the court in 2010-2011 because Nate has future potential trade value.

Which brings us to the Big Three.  The idea was that KG, RA, and PP had their cotracts expiring in successive years and could be moved as expiring contracts.  I think that's still a good plan.  You just need to extend Ray Allen and Paul Pierce to make that work.  That's why I advocate signing Ray Allen to a three-year deal set to expire one year past Garnett's contract.  Now, if you can get good value in a sign-and-trade (I at one point envisioned sending him to Miami to join Dwayne Wade in exchange for Michael Beasley and Daequan Cook, but Cook got traded to Oklahoma City instead), then certainly the team should ship Ray Allen, but if not, then the team preserves value by re-signing Ray Allen.  Arguably, RA is worth more the Celtics than any other team since re-signing him means that the team doesn't have to look for a new shooting guard with the MLE or Sheed's contract when the team is already desperate for a big and it means the team still has a chance to trade him later.  So, it makes sense for Boston to be willing to give Ray Allen a bit more than what his future on-court performance dictates, if necessary to win a bidding war. 

I would give Paul Pierce a reasonable extension for one year past a new deal for Ray Allen (which means a four-year deal).  Manu Ginobelli recently received a 3-year $39 million dollar extension.  Paul Pierce opted out of a final year worth $21 million.  Add the two together and you get four years for $60 million, restructured to help the ownership pay less luxury tax.  Kevin Garnett would be re-evaluated after the next season as to whether or not his value as a player is more than his trade value as an expiring contract.

With respect to draft picks and free agent signings, the goal is to look for players who can be part of a package for either a high lottery pick or an established star so that you can get a potential All-NBA talent next to Rajon Rondo.  That usually means taking the best player available instead of drafting for need, but probably also means that draft picks who have a shot of contributing immediately and creating trade value through their play are better choices than projects who have no shot of playing the sort of defense that will earn minutes from Doc Rivers.  For free agents, that means avoiding signing anyone to potentially untradeable contracts.  Long contracts to young talent based on potential that may not pan out are to be avoided.  If you can't fill out the team signing free agents who Boston might want to lock up long-term or who another team might want to trade for, then the team is better off using salary slots like the MLE on veterans signed to shorter contracts, two to three years so that they can be traded as expiring contracts, but nothing that is four or five years long. 

Don't make any trades for players with bad contracts for the sake of getting younger or making a change.  The only reason you accept a bad contract in a trade is if you are getting rid of an even worse contract or if you are getting draft picks as compensation.

So, basically, my suggestions include signing Ray Allen through 2013, Paul Pierce through 2014, and Nate Robinson to a reasonable contract for a bench player that is large enough to allow him to be swapped for something meaningful like a former lottery pick.

In an ideal world, two years from now, the Celtics can send Ray Allen, next year's draft pick, future picks, and some bench players for a disgruntled player of the caliber of Dwayne Wade or Carmelo Anthony.  Maybe Kevin Durant will wake up one morning and realize he's in freakin' Oklahoma.
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Re: The Next Celtics Contender Won't Be Built Through Free Agency
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2010, 05:57:38 AM »

Offline celtics2

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Wow no responses. Musta hit a sore spot. Yet it is a very insightful post. First of all if I'm a free agent expecting long cash I'm definitely looking out for where the Climate is best. Unless it's Florida and that all retire-ees. Yup it's West of the Big Muddy to California. We gotta find a snow boarder. It's almost time to pay the Devil. Maybe Danny can keep it away for another year.

Re: The Next Celtics Contender Won't Be Built Through Free Agency
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2010, 07:29:39 AM »

Offline bballee

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When this current squad's run is over, the next Celtics contending team will be built through trades and draft picks, not free agency.  So, those who advocate not signing anyone past 2012 (when Kevin Garnett's contract expires) in hopes of creating massive cap space are completely and utterly wrong about how to build a post-Big Three Boston squad around Rajon Rondo.

Very thoughtful and well stated.  I agree with your first premise on how next contender built.  However I don't agree with your second about the need for successive expiring contracts.  With the CBA-negotiation approaching Danny is right to limit any extensions to 2012 to maintain maximum flexibility for the new landscape.  Now if the 2013 season is made a team option, fine.

Re: The Next Celtics Contender Won't Be Built Through Free Agency
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2010, 07:58:35 AM »

Offline the_Bird

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When this current squad's run is over, the next Celtics contending team will be built through trades and draft picks, not free agency.  So, those who advocate not signing anyone past 2012 (when Kevin Garnett's contract expires) in hopes of creating massive cap space are completely and utterly wrong about how to build a post-Big Three Boston squad around Rajon Rondo.

Very thoughtful and well stated.  I agree with your first premise on how next contender built.  However I don't agree with your second about the need for successive expiring contracts.  With the CBA-negotiation approaching Danny is right to limit any extensions to 2012 to maintain maximum flexibility for the new landscape.  Now if the 2013 season is made a team option, fine.


....  except that if you want to build through trades, it's a helluva lot easier if you've got cap space to absorb incoming contracts.  You can help facilitate trades for other squads and pick up draft picks/good young players.  Cap space for 2012 can be useful for free agency, but it's not JUST for free agency.

Look at the recent Kirk Hinrich deal.  Washington basically got him for nothing because they could absorb his contract.  If Washington was over the cap, that deal isn't happening even if they have an expiring contract to send back Chicago's way.

Re: The Next Celtics Contender Won't Be Built Through Free Agency
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2010, 08:21:52 AM »

Offline wiley

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TP to Loose Cannon for a post that balances out the meat market approach to team development.   The truth is I prefer getting players through the 1.  the draft  and 2. trades.

All these teams approaching this offseason with the meat market approach was created by Lebron James.  I don't even want him.  I'd rather have a nice combination of players.

Having a big 3 of similar age (old) has made the clearing space approach appear more appealing than it actually is....(even it there is some age-related validity to it).

« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 08:33:49 AM by wiley »

Re: The Next Celtics Contender Won't Be Built Through Free Agency
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2010, 08:49:04 AM »

Offline CelticsWhat35

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You bring up some good points, but I would argue that the Celtics have never signed any big free agents because they've never had a lot of cap room.  I have a hard time believing that a Boston team with Rondo as the starting point guard in his prime wouldn't attract a top free agent if they had the money to spend.

Also, having all three players set to expire in 2012 doesn't necessarily mean that you just let them all expire.  Possibly you trade one or two of them before the deadline for multiple pieces.  There's a lot that can happen.

To me, it's about value, and I just don't see Paul Pierce being worth $15 million dollars when he's 35 and 36 yrs old.  I'm not sure he's worth that now.  I wouldn't mind overpaying him a bit now because we don't currently have cap flexibility, and we're trying to make one last push at a title with the Big 3, but anything past 2 years hurts Rondo's prime, IMO.

Re: The Next Celtics Contender Won't Be Built Through Free Agency
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2010, 09:15:54 AM »

Offline Evantime34

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Lot's of great points overall. I strongly agree that we will win based on the draft and trades.

However I still would not want to sign the big 3 to contracts that are longer than 2 years. Not because it would prevent us from having cap space after two years but because the decline would be poor for our rebuilding chances.

As the big 3 age their skills will decline, so if we sign them for too long our team will lose games each year without bottoming out. Most successful teams that build through the draft bottom out, get a high pick and build around that player. Signing Ray and Pierce to 3 and 4 year deals would delay this bottoming out an extra two years unless one or all of them retire.

If they retire they still count against the cap even if we don't have to pay them (I think...). So any extra years we eat at our cap space. Even though I doubt we can get the elite max players having cap space to sign complimentary pieces is still important.

So I agree with your premise but I disagree with a few of your points. Overall great post, tp.
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Re: The Next Celtics Contender Won't Be Built Through Free Agency
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2010, 09:51:48 AM »

Offline cdif911

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Wow no responses. Musta hit a sore spot. Yet it is a very insightful post. First of all if I'm a free agent expecting long cash I'm definitely looking out for where the Climate is best. Unless it's Florida and that all retire-ees. Yup it's West of the Big Muddy to California. We gotta find a snow boarder. It's almost time to pay the Devil. Maybe Danny can keep it away for another year.

the reason I'm not responding is the post was too long...I saw the length and skipped it, I'll read it now and respond though (maybe)
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Re: The Next Celtics Contender Won't Be Built Through Free Agency
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2010, 09:57:08 AM »

Offline cdif911

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yup that was long

I agree in principle, big time free agents don't come to Boston - the last ones I can remember are Dana Barros (who was a hometime boy) and Dominique Wilkins who was a little long in the tooth.  James Posey, Marquis Daniels, Sheed, Eddie House all came but were role players, no starters (on this team) in that group

The problem with being an average to slightly above average team, as I'd project the c's to be in the next 5 years is the mid level draft picks - there won't be many lottery picks in the next few years and once your past 10 or so, it seems to be a crap shoot.  Trading expiring contracts is good in theory, but do you see the Celtics ever trading Paul Pierce?  Me either.  I could only see it if he retires - ala what the Lakers did with Rick Fox or the C's may do with Sheed...KG on the other hand could land us a huge booty from a team trying to make ends meet...
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Re: The Next Celtics Contender Won't Be Built Through Free Agency
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2010, 12:36:02 PM »

Offline Green Pride

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TP to the OP.

This is an important thread in thinking about the C's long-term future. I was thinking similarly yesterday -- even if we could sign both Pierce and Allen for two years and the big three all came off the books at the same time, what would we actually do with all that cap space? I'd worry we'd get stuck the way the Knicks or the Nets look like they are going to be this off-season.

On the other hand, let's say that Allen signs for 3 years and Pierce for 4. (I'd prefer shorter contracts, but let's just say this is the result.) Then you have one huge expiring contract in each of 3 years after this one, which, as we've seen, is a real valuable chip at the deadline. If each of those guys was traded for real players who've worn out their welcome at their existing places, we could gradually rebuild and potentially create a new core with Rondo. One key to this strategy is the draft -- you need somebody to sweeten these deals that other people would want -- we're unlikely to draft Al Jeff part II, but we would need people to include in these trades that people would want.

Re: The Next Celtics Contender Won't Be Built Through Free Agency
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2010, 12:45:08 PM »

Offline BballTim

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  First of all I'd say that, while Boston would still be less desirable than a warmer weather destination, it's probably seen as a lot less undesirable than it was in '07. Ray, KG, Sheed, Posey and the other players that went through the system seem to have had good experiences. Also, Chicago seems to have a good shot at James and maybe Bosh or Boozer, even though they've been completely shut out in the past when they've hadd oodles of cap room. Also, as has been noted, you can probably trade for players a lot easier if you have the cap space to absorb their contracts and the other team doesn't have to take players back, so that's another reason to try and preserve that cap space.

Re: The Next Celtics Contender Won't Be Built Through Free Agency
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2010, 12:47:41 PM »

Offline wdleehi

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It is easier to trade with cap space then to try and get another team to agree to pay for a player they may not want for a year or two. 

Re: The Next Celtics Contender Won't Be Built Through Free Agency
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2010, 12:49:35 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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I see an immediate problem with the logic of the post. We did not trade for Nate because he was a better trade asset. We don't even have Bird rights for Nate so there is no chance for a sign and trade!

We do not know when we will be a contender in the future. We have no idea how it will happen, but team's like Shaq's LA used free agency to win. One guy can make the difference.

While it is true that you might be left out in the cold if you dump payroll to get a Lebron as a FA, the same thing happens if you try to rebuild the hard way. How many teams draft studs and make trades only to become mediocre 50 win teams? Just because one approach worked to win it all in 2008 doesn't mean it will work again next time we try,

Re: The Next Celtics Contender Won't Be Built Through Free Agency
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2010, 01:38:47 PM »

Offline LooseCannon

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I see an immediate problem with the logic of the post. We did not trade for Nate because he was a better trade asset. We don't even have Bird rights for Nate so there is no chance for a sign and trade!

We have his non-Bird rights, which means he can be signed to a contract starting at 120% of last year's salary, which was $4 million.  Nate Robinson has a desirable skill set which is useful to some teams.  A team that wants Nate Robinson might want to do a sign and trade because they want to use the MLE elsewhere. 

But I'm not even talking about a S&T.  The Celtics can match almost any dollar figure, so they can keep him so long as he likes playing in Boston (and, given even dollars, he might leave only if he gets more years or a promise of more playing time).  I envision Nate as a less expensive version of Marcin Gortat.  The Magic matched the offer sheet given to Gortat even though it was a ton of money to pay a backup to an All-NBA center because they though he had value as a trade asset in future off-seasons (like this one). 

Ideally, the Celtics can keep Robinson and Tony Allen and not be forced to rush development of Avery Bradley.  An emerging Bradley would allow the Celtics to deal from a position of strength and come out ahead long-term in deal with a team that needs immediate backcourt help for a playoff run, netting a project big who the team doesn't have time to wait for (someone with the potential that Bill Walker had when he was traded) plus a second round pick.
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