Author Topic: Why Didn't Doc Bench Ray?  (Read 8944 times)

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Re: Why Didn't Doc Bench Ray?
« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2010, 01:02:21 PM »

Offline Bankshot

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So if Ray hits two shots, this topic probably doesn't happen.

Look, even if you don't want him taking a shot, then 's , have him spread the floor, let passes to KG and Pierce be easier, and go from there! But what is this about having TA in...to defend Kobe? Kobe wasn't even the reason the Lakers won down the stretch; that was Old Man Fisher cause Rondo didn't take him seriously!

We stop Fisher from going off, we win even with Ray not making a field goal; that's another way to put what happened.

But he didn't.  You can play the "what if" game, but the fact is he didn't hit anything.
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Re: Why Didn't Doc Bench Ray?
« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2010, 01:26:29 PM »

Offline Crushmaster

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But he didn't.  You can play the "what if" game, but the fact is he didn't hit anything.

And it's easy to say Doc was wrong in hindsight, but Doc didn't know what was going to happen when he made the decision, so he did what most coaches would do: he played the guy most likely to produce.  Your argument that Ray gave us zero FGs so anyone, even Tony, could have done better assumes Doc could have reasonably predicted that Ray would continue missing.  For a shooter of Ray's caliber, his performance was a complete statistical aberration.  Now that we know what happened, it's easy to conjure alternate scenarios that could have turned out better.  Maybe Tony hits five straight 3s.  It COULD happen. Hell, maybe Scal hits a half-court hook-shot falling out of bounds and Doc looks like a genius.  Anything is possible, but I doubt Doc's career would have lasted very long if he coached in a random panicky fashion, rather than continuing to play the percentages and run his system. 

Re: Why Didn't Doc Bench Ray?
« Reply #47 on: June 12, 2010, 09:10:47 AM »

Offline action781

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This is real simple, You do not bench a guy that can turn a game around with a couple of outside shots when there wasn't another player on the court that could hit outside shots.

Pierce was in foul trouble all night. That meant Tony Allen had to be playing. Once KG sat, without Ray, there's no threat of an outside shot and without a threat of an outside shot to space the floor LA packs it in and Boston will have major problems scoring.

Ray, even cold, is a threat to hit and keep hitting at any time. He must stay in the game as a threat to hit the outside shot so that space opens up for Perk, pierce, KG, Rondo and the rest of the Celtics to operate inside when they need to.

You don't bench Ray for that reason, because he's your best three point threat and because he just went off and the chances of him going 0 for the game the next game are unfathomable.

Define unfathomable.  Because I believe it was just fathomed.  Anybody who believes something is "unfathomable" and it ends up happening is inept at fathoming in my opinion.  Even KG said, "Anything is possible."  That anything doesn't always have to be a positive thing.

I was calling for Ray to be benched in favor of Tony during the game, but my friend insisted with the same logic that "he can hit at any moment."  But couldn't Tony also?  To me, they both seemed equally unlikely at the time.  But in the game up to that point, Tony had harassed Kobe on defense and Ray was letting Kobe get off shots he wanted, even if they were "contested" we know that Kobe can still hit contested shots that he wants. 
So you are going to make fun of my use of an adjective and call me inept at something? What is so hard to understand about what I said?

After going 11-20 and 8-11 from three on Sunday night it is almost impossible to conceive(unfathomable) that Ray Allen could go 0-13 in the very next game. Just because you are in the immensely vast minority that could conceive this ahead of time(which by the way I seriously doubt, I am more inclined to believe you are just doing a magnificent job of being brilliant through Monday morning quarterbacking), doesn't make the notion unfathomable for all us much less clairvoyant people.

A coach needs to play the odds. The odds are that at any given time(ANY GIVEN TIME, even after Ray has missed 12 straight shots and Tony Allen has made 12 straight shots) Ray Allen will hit a shot before Tony Allen will. In a late game situation, Ray Allen has to be in if you are behind, not Tony Allen. It's the correct and intelligent basketball decision to make because Ray has more experience in making shots in those situations, is more likely to hit a shot in those situations, and creates more opportunities for his team mates to hit shots in those situations. Just one look at the 20 footer Tony heaved up earlier in the game is testament to that fact.


Sorry if that came off as snide and making fun of you, Nick.  I can see how it came off as that, maybe I was generally annoyed, but I think I was a little misunderstood also.  I sincerely apologize and have always enjoyed reading your opinions and generally tend to agree with you.  TP for you. 

I do agree that it would be nearly impossible to believe at the start of game 3 that Ray would have gone 0-13.  But, I thought you were talking about it being unfathomable in the 4th quarter, when Ray was already 0-11 or so.  That's when I was calling for Ray to be benched for Tony.  At that point, I find it completely possible that Ray might not a hit a shot all game and would be very surprised for somebody to find that unfathomable.  That's what I thought you were saying.  And everybody is right, maybe Tony won't hit one either.  But if I were coach, my game plan would have been for neither of them to be one of our top offensive options, our offense would be running through Garnett.  So it would matter little who would hit the next shot.  What would matter was that somebody still had to guard Kobe, which I would want Tony for.
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Re: Why Didn't Doc Bench Ray?
« Reply #48 on: June 12, 2010, 09:32:41 AM »

Offline CoachBo

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I would NEVER bench a pure shooter just because he's missed some.

In fact, you tell that pure shooter to keep shooting.
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Re: Why Didn't Doc Bench Ray?
« Reply #49 on: June 12, 2010, 11:01:55 AM »

Offline Birdbrain

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But you might if he misses 13 straight. 

Anyway I had no problem with Doc staying with Ray in either game 3 or 4. In regards to the OP game 5 is another story.  I don't think he'll have the same leash if he comes out bricking on Sunday.  Too much at stake.  In fact you might see Rondo and Nate back court along with Tony for defensive purposes.

Sorry Ray we need you to make open shots if you aren't you need to be like KG,Pierce, and Rondo during the 4th quarter of game 4 and cheer on your mates.  Just another point.  No more wild attempts at the basket if you don't have a clear path get it out of your hand.  I almost dread Ray on the break when he bypasses giving the ball up to Rondo.  It's TO or bad shot about 90% of the time.  He's starting to remind of Twan in that regard.
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Re: Why Didn't Doc Bench Ray?
« Reply #50 on: June 12, 2010, 11:17:48 AM »

Offline thirstyboots18

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I can see staying with Ray...he can go off and start hitting anytime...he is the original "flip on the switch" guy.  But not only that...Ray is one of the few Celtics who always, always keeps moving without the ball, disrupting the defensive flow of the oponents...they have to pay attention to him and that opens up one of his team mates.  And he has been guarding Kobe for a long time now, and does an excellent job of it.
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Re: Why Didn't Doc Bench Ray?
« Reply #51 on: June 12, 2010, 11:52:15 AM »

Offline guava_wrench

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But he didn't.  You can play the "what if" game, but the fact is he didn't hit anything.

And it's easy to say Doc was wrong in hindsight, but Doc didn't know what was going to happen when he made the decision, so he did what most coaches would do: he played the guy most likely to produce.  Your argument that Ray gave us zero FGs so anyone, even Tony, could have done better assumes Doc could have reasonably predicted that Ray would continue missing.  For a shooter of Ray's caliber, his performance was a complete statistical aberration.  Now that we know what happened, it's easy to conjure alternate scenarios that could have turned out better.  Maybe Tony hits five straight 3s.  It COULD happen. Hell, maybe Scal hits a half-court hook-shot falling out of bounds and Doc looks like a genius.  Anything is possible, but I doubt Doc's career would have lasted very long if he coached in a random panicky fashion, rather than continuing to play the percentages and run his system. 
I think a lot of fans can't understand your point, which is an import. Post hoc critiques are a waste of time for 2 reasons:

1 - you don't know the result ahead of time, only after.
2 - people who do such lazy analysis ignore the abundant evidence that proves their generalizations wrong.