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Re: rebuilding trade
« Reply #105 on: March 17, 2010, 02:02:14 PM »

Offline buzz

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I added a 2011 first rounder going to Minny as I agree with those thinking it was imbalanced towards the Celtics, althouth one poster felt the opposite....

Rondo, Garnett, Perkins, 2010 first, 2011 first to Minny.

Jefferson, Hollins, Sessions, Brewer, Gomes, Rubio and Evan Turner to Celtics

(the entire deal is evan turner dependant...if he can't be had the trade is off)

It's a 3 for 5 swap in players, since Rubio and Turner aren't around yet...

Celtics resign Nate, Quis and Finley
Minny signs Ray Allen to cement their transition to winning instead of losing....

any takers?:  It's a rebuilding trade because the Celts record will be **** poor for a few years, probably netting us 2 good draft picks in 2012 and 2013.

It's based on a backcourt of Rubio and Evans, with a nice small forward in Brewer.  And Al J.
The new big 3 would be Rubio, Evans and Al J.  We'll be a smart, talented team and should have no trouble enticing free agents to come here.....


That is a horrible, horrible trade for Minnesota. No chance of happening at all, sorry.

Re: rebuilding trade
« Reply #106 on: March 17, 2010, 02:09:17 PM »

Online slamtheking

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I added a 2011 first rounder going to Minny as I agree with those thinking it was imbalanced towards the Celtics, althouth one poster felt the opposite....

Rondo, Garnett, Perkins, 2010 first, 2011 first to Minny.

Jefferson, Hollins, Sessions, Brewer, Gomes, Rubio and Evan Turner to Celtics

(the entire deal is evan turner dependant...if he can't be had the trade is off)

It's a 3 for 5 swap in players, since Rubio and Turner aren't around yet...

Celtics resign Nate, Quis and Finley
Minny signs Ray Allen to cement their transition to winning instead of losing....

any takers?:  It's a rebuilding trade because the Celts record will be **** poor for a few years, probably netting us 2 good draft picks in 2012 and 2013.

It's based on a backcourt of Rubio and Evans, with a nice small forward in Brewer.  And Al J.
The new big 3 would be Rubio, Evans and Al J.  We'll be a smart, talented team and should have no trouble enticing free agents to come here.....


yeesh.

ignoring the fact they can't trade consecutive #1 picks, this trade stinks. 
Rubio is unproven < Rondo is an all-star. 
Al plays good offense but no defense < KG plays ok offense and good defense. 
Evans is pure speculation in terms of production at this point.  Sessions, Gomes and Brewer are end of bench players.
Hollins is ok for a bench player < Perk is a solid starting NBA center (the previous 1-2 months aside)

In short, you've just swapped us for the T-Wolves who have the second worst team in the league AND have relegated us to the same strategy they currently use for improving-->praying to get lucky in the lottery.

No thanks.

Re: rebuilding trade
« Reply #107 on: March 17, 2010, 02:10:32 PM »

Offline wiley

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I added a 2011 first rounder going to Minny as I agree with those thinking it was imbalanced towards the Celtics, althouth one poster felt the opposite....

Rondo, Garnett, Perkins, 2010 first, 2011 first to Minny.

Jefferson, Hollins, Sessions, Brewer, Gomes, Rubio and Evan Turner to Celtics

(the entire deal is evan turner dependant...if he can't be had the trade is off)

It's a 3 for 5 swap in players, since Rubio and Turner aren't around yet...

Celtics resign Nate, Quis and Finley
Minny signs Ray Allen to cement their transition to winning instead of losing....

any takers?:  It's a rebuilding trade because the Celts record will be **** poor for a few years, probably netting us 2 good draft picks in 2012 and 2013.

It's based on a backcourt of Rubio and Evans, with a nice small forward in Brewer.  And Al J.
The new big 3 would be Rubio, Evans and Al J.  We'll be a smart, talented team and should have no trouble enticing free agents to come here.....


That is a horrible, horrible trade for Minnesota. No chance of happening at all, sorry.

Are you saying Minny should get Lebron James for that package?  I'm assuming not, so name something Minny should get for giving up that package....then we can compare it the Celtics package...

Re: rebuilding trade
« Reply #108 on: March 17, 2010, 02:12:14 PM »

Offline wiley

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Wow, Slamtheking, you should start up a converation with Buzz, who just railed against the trade from the opposite perspective...!

Re: rebuilding trade
« Reply #109 on: March 17, 2010, 02:34:38 PM »

Offline wiley

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I added a 2011 first rounder going to Minny as I agree with those thinking it was imbalanced towards the Celtics, althouth one poster felt the opposite....

Rondo, Garnett, Perkins, 2010 first, 2011 first to Minny.

Jefferson, Hollins, Sessions, Brewer, Gomes, Rubio and Evan Turner to Celtics

(the entire deal is evan turner dependant...if he can't be had the trade is off)

It's a 3 for 5 swap in players, since Rubio and Turner aren't around yet...

Celtics resign Nate, Quis and Finley
Minny signs Ray Allen to cement their transition to winning instead of losing....

any takers?:  It's a rebuilding trade because the Celts record will be **** poor for a few years, probably netting us 2 good draft picks in 2012 and 2013.

It's based on a backcourt of Rubio and Evans, with a nice small forward in Brewer.  And Al J.
The new big 3 would be Rubio, Evans and Al J.  We'll be a smart, talented team and should have no trouble enticing free agents to come here.....


yeesh.

ignoring the fact they can't trade consecutive #1 picks, this trade stinks. 
Rubio is unproven < Rondo is an all-star. 
Al plays good offense but no defense < KG plays ok offense and good defense. 
Evans is pure speculation in terms of production at this point.  Sessions, Gomes and Brewer are end of bench players.
Hollins is ok for a bench player < Perk is a solid starting NBA center (the previous 1-2 months aside)

In short, you've just swapped us for the T-Wolves who have the second worst team in the league AND have relegated us to the same strategy they currently use for improving-->praying to get lucky in the lottery.

No thanks.

Well, from your perspective, if you're Danny, you don't give up the second first round pick (the year after as you pointed out and not consecutive).  But seems even then you feel it's too risky....don't forget however, rebuiding is a reality on it's way, not a choice...question is when and how....I personally wouldn't mind sucking for two or three years if I get to watch an awesome future backcourt develop and Al J.  If someone told you when we gave up Al J. to get Kevin that we could get Al. J. back 3 years later, woudn't you have been ecstatic? 

Re: rebuilding trade
« Reply #110 on: March 17, 2010, 03:06:30 PM »

Offline BballTim

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Wow, Slamtheking, you should start up a converation with Buzz, who just railed against the trade from the opposite perspective...!

  I think it's bad from both ends. Why would Minny make the trade? And I'm a big Jefferson fan but we're giving up Rondo for a couple of kids who have never played in the nba and an injury-prone pf who's not a great defender.

Re: rebuilding trade
« Reply #111 on: March 17, 2010, 03:38:28 PM »

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would coulda shoulda

What's done is done.  The question is, what now?  Do you try to remain a 40-45 win team for a few years, or do you blow it up as quickly as possible?  That's really the issue. The presumed lockout makes matters worse, because the big three will be getting older without bringing in any revenue.

Once again, I'm guessing that R.C. Buford in San Antonio will figure it out.  I'm not so sure about the Celtics.

We don't have to pay them during the lockout. Assuming it goes for a full year, they wouldn't even be on the books.

Thanks, Brick, for keeping us focused.  I'd like to think the trip down alternate-reality memory lane serves to show that we don't have the pieces to draw champion-level/star starting players in a trade, despite the big expiring contracts coming up. 

With the comment about the lockout, I wonder if any FA's will be willing to sign 2 year deals, since the second year may not pay out?  We may HAVE to sign someone for post-KG/new CBA to attract anyone with the MLE.  Perhaps that will be the sign to start trying to acquire draft picks and prospects?

Re: rebuilding trade
« Reply #112 on: March 17, 2010, 04:47:52 PM »

Offline Brickowski

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I'm not convinced that there will be a lockout. Billy Hunter knows perfectly well that it will hurt the players more than the owners, and I expect the union to make concessions. Also, I don't think NBA owners are out for blood like the NHL owners were. Maybe they should be, but IMHO Stern will ride herd on the hard liners.

Lockout or no lockout, Ainge's job is to find value and he's got to look under every rock and bush.

Incidentally, I think Rubio will be a star in the NBA.  Beno Udrih has done fairly well, and Rubio is five times better than Udrih. So I would certainly consider giving up Rondo in a deal involving Rubio, assuming that (1) I knew I could sign Rubio, and (2) other value also came back (e.g. a player like Corey Brewer, who has been poorly utilized in MN). 

Re: rebuilding trade
« Reply #113 on: March 17, 2010, 10:10:02 PM »

Online slamtheking

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I added a 2011 first rounder going to Minny as I agree with those thinking it was imbalanced towards the Celtics, althouth one poster felt the opposite....

Rondo, Garnett, Perkins, 2010 first, 2011 first to Minny.

Jefferson, Hollins, Sessions, Brewer, Gomes, Rubio and Evan Turner to Celtics

(the entire deal is evan turner dependant...if he can't be had the trade is off)

It's a 3 for 5 swap in players, since Rubio and Turner aren't around yet...

Celtics resign Nate, Quis and Finley
Minny signs Ray Allen to cement their transition to winning instead of losing....

any takers?:  It's a rebuilding trade because the Celts record will be **** poor for a few years, probably netting us 2 good draft picks in 2012 and 2013.

It's based on a backcourt of Rubio and Evans, with a nice small forward in Brewer.  And Al J.
The new big 3 would be Rubio, Evans and Al J.  We'll be a smart, talented team and should have no trouble enticing free agents to come here.....


yeesh.

ignoring the fact they can't trade consecutive #1 picks, this trade stinks. 
Rubio is unproven < Rondo is an all-star. 
Al plays good offense but no defense < KG plays ok offense and good defense. 
Evans is pure speculation in terms of production at this point.  Sessions, Gomes and Brewer are end of bench players.
Hollins is ok for a bench player < Perk is a solid starting NBA center (the previous 1-2 months aside)

In short, you've just swapped us for the T-Wolves who have the second worst team in the league AND have relegated us to the same strategy they currently use for improving-->praying to get lucky in the lottery.

No thanks.

Well, from your perspective, if you're Danny, you don't give up the second first round pick (the year after as you pointed out and not consecutive).  But seems even then you feel it's too risky....don't forget however, rebuiding is a reality on it's way, not a choice...question is when and how....I personally wouldn't mind sucking for two or three years if I get to watch an awesome future backcourt develop and Al J.  If someone told you when we gave up Al J. to get Kevin that we could get Al. J. back 3 years later, woudn't you have been ecstatic? 
I agree we're going to have to rebuild and preferably sooner rather than later while there may be a contender willing to take on our remaining big contracts to put them over the top next year.  I just don't think taking on the roster from the second worst team in the league is the best option.  even if it's their best players, they're still not worth what we're giving.

Minnie shouldn't want this deal because even though they're getting the better value, it won't put them into contention.  I'm not sure they even make the playoffs in the West.

As for the possibility of getting Al back in your 3-year scenario, yes I'd have been ecstatic but that's because I would have thought Al would have continued to develop and be a consistant 20/10 player by now.  Unfortunately his health hasn't been the greatest and he seems to have regressed as a player after they added Love.  mayo would have been the better option for them.

Re: rebuilding trade
« Reply #114 on: April 02, 2010, 03:27:01 PM »

Offline paintitgreen

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I'm not convinced that there will be a lockout. Billy Hunter knows perfectly well that it will hurt the players more than the owners, and I expect the union to make concessions. Also, I don't think NBA owners are out for blood like the NHL owners were. Maybe they should be, but IMHO Stern will ride herd on the hard liners.

Lockout or no lockout, Ainge's job is to find value and he's got to look under every rock and bush.

Incidentally, I think Rubio will be a star in the NBA.  Beno Udrih has done fairly well, and Rubio is five times better than Udrih. So I would certainly consider giving up Rondo in a deal involving Rubio, assuming that (1) I knew I could sign Rubio, and (2) other value also came back (e.g. a player like Corey Brewer, who has been poorly utilized in MN). 

Thing is, it's not worth it to just unload Rondo - you have to get rid of a contract, and you have to get assets. Rondo is proven and young - none of the other guys are both. He's a good building block for the future, so you only do it if you think Rubio will come here in 2011-12 (I think he would come to Boston), and the Rubio/pick/Brewer combo is better than Rondo.

I agree it's conceivable to trade Rondo to rebuild, but only if you're making a killing in the deal financially and overall talent wise. So you've also got to unload a bad contract - KG's is too onerous for any non-contender with a high pick, but Wallace has to go if we're giving up Rondo.

If we're doing it with Minnesota, they have cap room, so Rondo and Wallace for the T-wolves' first rounder (after they select him - I'm not sure they can trade the pick straight up), Brewer, the rights to Rubio and maybe Sessions (who Minnesota would have to get rid of). That would shave about $5-9 million off Boston's payroll. I'm not demanding the pick be Turner - I'm happy to have Ainge assess them and decide who's the best choice whether it's Turner, Cousins, Favors, Johnson or Davis.


More ideally, I'd make a decision this summer on whether to blow it up and rebuild around just Rondo. The big factors will be: 1) will Pierce will opt out? and 2) will Dallas be able to get anything else on the trade market, or might Boston be able to talk them into giving up Dampier's non-guaranteed contract and an expiring like DeShawn Stevenson or Caron Butler for Garnett and possibly Sheed (if it's Butler)?

If you could unload the KG/Wallace contracts, taking back only Butler and Damp's non-guaranteed money, waive Dampier, and renounce Pierce after an opt out, plus Ray, Robinson and the other free agents, then suddenly your cap situation is fine, now and in the future. Between Rondo, Butler, Perkins, Davis and 8 rookie minimum cap holds, the Cs would be at $31 million, and Butler's $10 mil would go off the books after one season, as would Davis and Perkins, leaving only Rondo on the roster in the summer of 2011. When Carmelo Anthony is available.

Unfortunately, there are big reasons not to do this even if Dallas was willing to do it.

Let's start there - Dallas wants the Damp contract as a way to acquire a youngish max contract player in a sign and trade. They can combine Dampier's expiring money with a young asset like Beaubois and cash so that a team like Cleveland, Miami, Toronto or Atlanta actually gets a young asset for their fleeing free agent, but doesn't have to pay a season's worth of money to an expiring. They lose the player they were already losing, but add a young asset and unlike with an offer of a traditional expiring, don't have to pay a lot of matching cash to a guy they don't want. They just decline Damp's option. And the free agent gets his Bird-rights max contract which is worth I think $25-30 million more over 6 years than a non-Bird max contract. So Dallas doesn't want to give up Damp's contract for an old player like Garnett.

Which means Dallas would only do the trade if they couldn't get a max free agent via the sign and trade route. Which means we wouldn't get one either even if we cleared out Garnett, Pierce and Allen. A player that decided not to go to Dallas, which already has Jason Kidd, Dirk Nowitzki, Jason Terry, Shawn Marion and Caron Butler, plus a free-spending owner and no state income tax, with the benefit of the higher wage, is not gonna come to Boston to play with just Rondo, Perk and Butler.

And since we wouldn't be getting an impact free agent, based on the fact that we already owe Minnesota our 2011 1st, there's no big incentive to unloading the team right away. We would suck. We would be in the lottery. But we wouldn't have a lottery pick coming. It'd be like New York's situation this year - they suck and still don't have a pick to look forward to - just the hope of a free agent. I wouldn't be in a rush to break things up this year unless they could get a player like Wade as a free agent (and let's face it, he probably wouldn't do it to come here if he wouldn't do it to go to Dallas).

Best option for next year is offering Ray 2 years, $20 million. That way, when Garnett's and Wallace's contracts are finishing up, we wouldn't have Allen keeping us above the cap. The sad fact is, if Pierce opted out, he might extend for a lower per year figure but probably would want 4-5 years. I just wouldn't do that anymore, not with the potential to have a completely clean slate in 2012 while Rondo is reasonably young.
Go Celtics.

Coming up: Major Offseason Overhaul
« Reply #115 on: April 03, 2010, 12:57:11 PM »

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Time to revive the rebuilding thread...

To me, it looks like the offseason might bring a major overhaul.  I was expecting the C's major problem would be deciding on how to reload at the wing, since all of our rotation bigs are under contract next year, but with our rebounding woes and lack of defensive mobility to close out, I'd say trading our bigs is on the radar...Perk included.

Here's where I see us standing:

KG:  contract too big/body too old to trade.  Mobility becoming a defensive issue w/opposing quick 4's.  Might be able to play the 5 better in most situations.

Perk:  contract year coming.  Married life seems to have mellowed him considerably?  Not getting it done on the boards this year.  Little offensive production/potential.  Great post defender, not so great pick/pop defender.  Trade value may be pretty good.

Sheed:  Who wants him?  Anyone?  Probably a bad contract.  We should be looking to move both the player and the contract for whatever we can get.

BBD:  I'm not sure what he provides at $3 million/year that several players couldn't/wouldn't for the minimum.  Warrick and James Singleton are both playing for less than half of what BBD is this year (minimum deals).

Aside from sign-and-trades, which can't be relied on to make a move with, it seems that (aside from Rondo and Pierce) Perk and possibly BBD are our only trade assets.  Perhaps we'll move them both?  Perhaps our bad contract (meaning Sheed) could be packages with one of them to bring back an also-bad contract, but for a more suitable/better fit player (Okafor? Ben Gordon?)?

Stay tuned this offseason...same Bat-time, same Bat-channel...

Re: rebuilding trade
« Reply #116 on: April 03, 2010, 01:09:13 PM »

Offline incoherent

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im tired of trading with the celtics JV team

Re: Coming up: Major Offseason Overhaul
« Reply #117 on: April 03, 2010, 01:10:18 PM »

Online mobilija

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Time to revive the rebuilding thread...

To me, it looks like the offseason might bring a major overhaul.  I was expecting the C's major problem would be deciding on how to reload at the wing, since all of our rotation bigs are under contract next year, but with our rebounding woes and lack of defensive mobility to close out, I'd say trading our bigs is on the radar...Perk included.

Here's where I see us standing:

KG:  contract too big/body too old to trade.  Mobility becoming a defensive issue w/opposing quick 4's.  Might be able to play the 5 better in most situations.

Perk:  contract year coming.  Married life seems to have mellowed him considerably?  Not getting it done on the boards this year.  Little offensive production/potential.  Great post defender, not so great pick/pop defender.  Trade value may be pretty good.

Sheed:  Who wants him?  Anyone?  Probably a bad contract.  We should be looking to move both the player and the contract for whatever we can get.

BBD:  I'm not sure what he provides at $3 million/year that several players couldn't/wouldn't for the minimum.  Warrick and James Singleton are both playing for less than half of what BBD is this year (minimum deals).

Aside from sign-and-trades, which can't be relied on to make a move with, it seems that (aside from Rondo and Pierce) Perk and possibly BBD are our only trade assets.  Perhaps we'll move them both?  Perhaps our bad contract (meaning Sheed) could be packages with one of them to bring back an also-bad contract, but for a more suitable/better fit player (Okafor? Ben Gordon?)?

Stay tuned this offseason...same Bat-time, same Bat-channel...

I know you are probably sick of posting how this team can't compete and are itching for something new to discuss but...
Let's revive this thread, maybe, after the playoffs. I think we'll have a better picture of where this team is at.