Rondo's Defense vastly overrated?

[Birdbrain]

Let's put it this way Rondo goes around his player more often than his player goes around him.

And Tommy mentioning him 'bending his knees' Is Tommy's nice way of saying 'Don't be lazy Rondo'  We all say it from time to time because it's obvious.  If it was such fundamental issue they would be working on it and he wouldn't magically be able to do it when they are 'clamp down' mode.  You can not expect Rondo to do everything and be beast man to man defender with his build.  He's going to gamble from time to time.

[BudweiserCeltic]

And yep, in doesn't matter what other PG around the league are doing. All that matters is what Rondo is doing. I'm not watching all the teams around the league in a consistent basis to know who all the good defenders at the position are, nor am I paying attention to all of that. Not my interest. My interest is in what this team is doing right and what it's doing wrong.

  IMO it's meaningless to evaluate a player in a vacuum. This is no different than claiming that Ray has always been a terrible three point shooter because he makes well under half of those shots.

Also, as I mentioned, Rondo has a lot of strength in other areas of his defense. Maybe that's what the coaches are actually seeing and being impressed by? Rondo is certainly a chaotic defender and his ball pressure is very legit, his hands are very legit, his instincts are legit, his voice is legit, his athleticism and rebounding ability is legit. He's simply not a good at keeping his man in front of him. It's not his strength. Why is it so hard to understand or accept that?

  I agree that keeping his man in front of him isn't the strongest part of Rondo's defensive game. I just disagree with the assertion that he does it poorly. I think people have unrealistic expectations in this area, especially when the other team uses a pick to get the opposing PG free of Rondo.

If you'd go on and read the rest of my post, I go into it further why it's hard to compare the defensive capabilities of an NBA player, particularly in the PG position where the focus on the offensive side of the ball highly overshadows the defensive side of it. So players that might actually illustrate good defensive ability aren't getting on the floor because other flaws in their games.

I also went to mention that this is not so true with centers. Good defensive centers get a fair amount of playing time. So if you wanted to compare defensive abilities of centers, I might actually be more willing to.

And yeah, it's not fine to just evaluate things in a vaccuum. But at the same time, I don't need to see other players to know that a missed assignment is a missed assignment. And that in Ray's case, a missed 3 is a missed 3. So I would be accurate in saying that Ray is missing a ton of 3-pointers and as a result we're missing a good amount of possessions, but I might not be as correct in metioning that he's a poor 3-point shooter without looking at other data (which is actually readily available).

It's simply a bit harder to so with PG's and their defense just because the comparables are really not handily available for one to say "yep, this is good defense".

About the pick, I have no problem when Rondo is beat because of a pick. I have problem when he's just taken off the dribble. But as I mention, it's a two sided story. The opposing guard also has to take advantage of this, and he isn't always willing to do so. Just as we see a lot of PG match-ups and say that Rondo could drive all day on the player, but doesn't go out and do it. Does it mean that the other player is playing good defense or is Rondo simply playing poor offense? It's tricky. What I do notice is that when the PG seems willing to get to the paint, there's not as much of an obstacle from Rondo to my liking.

Let's put it this way Rondo goes around his player more often than his player goes around him.

Not to my liking either lol. He should be doing that a lot more often. But he's been doing that much better this season, particularly finishing plays.

[scurvmeister]

Let's put it this way Rondo goes around his player more often than his player goes around him.

And Tommy mentioning him 'bending his knees' Is Tommy's nice way of saying 'Don't be lazy Rondo'  We all say it from time to time because it's obvious.  If it was such fundamental issue they would be working on it and he wouldn't magically be able to do it when they are 'clamp down' mode.  You can not expect Rondo to do everything and be beast man to man defender with his build.  He's going to gamble from time to time.

I agree that it's unrealistic to expect Rondo to play lockdown defense 100% of the time and still do what he does on offense. Birdbrain mentioned his build and I think it plays into that too. When you're small, you have to cut off drives at a more precise angle than if you're more stocky.

Even so, his athleticism combined with his ability to gamble disrupts the opposing PG's game. If you drive, he can stay in front of you. If you beat him, pick him, or catch him off guard, he can still hurt you and create a steal. Most PGs in the game can't hurt you once you beat them. Rondo has relied on this too much at times, but I have to agree it's a matter of dividing his energy to be able to do all the other elite things he does on the court.

Just look at Tony Allen. 90% of his energy is devoted to defense, staying in front of his man. He tries his hardest on every defensive play, and he can afford to do that because he doesn't really have any other responsibilities. Rondo has much more to worry about during the course of a game.

[BballTim]

Not quite. At least not for me. It's not one play here and one play there that makes me judge how he plays defense. It's the full body of work. It wasn't long ago that Doc was criticizing the team, particularly of how opposing PG play was a critical element in our team struggles (partly House's fault).

As for the polls, yep you're correct he's voted by the coaches, yet Doc took the chance right there to "criticize" his defense a bit? Yep, it's obviously the fans that have Rondo under a microscope and that's why we notice this things.

About having the right people fooled, one of the common topics around this blog is about Marcus Camby's defense, does he have everyone fooled too?

And yep, in doesn't matter what other PG around the league are doing. All that matters is what Rondo is doing. I'm not watching all the teams around the league in a consistent basis to know who all the good defenders at the position are, nor am I paying attention to all of that. Not my interest. My interest is in what this team is doing right and what it's doing wrong.

You ask about all this polls and the defensive players selected, and I'm willing to bet that most of the really good defensive players at the PG position aren't included. Why is this? Because at that position most of the NBA is looking for offensive players and players that can run the offense well. Finding one that does that and is a great defensive player is quite rare. So better defensive players in the position are out there, they're simply not at the forefront. Not like centers, were their defense is one of the biggest skill-set the NBA looks for and easier to take notice of. Fact is, that defensive-minded PG's are uncommon to take the floor, which skews perception of what a good defensive PG should be, because PG are often compared with peers that are actually taking the floor because of their strengths in other areas of the game.

Also, as I mentioned, Rondo has a lot of strength in other areas of his defense. Maybe that's what the coaches are actually seeing and being impressed by? Rondo is certainly a chaotic defender and his ball pressure is very legit, his hands are very legit, his instincts are legit, his voice is legit, his athleticism and rebounding ability is legit. He's simply not a good at keeping his man in front of him. It's not his strength. Why is it so hard to understand or accept that?

It is not hard to accept that at all. I think most here do. What is releveant here is that Rondo's only defensive weakness is a shared weakness by the majority of pgs in the league IMO.

That is why it is important to put this into perspective.

This is the thing though, which makes this discussion and comparison with other players difficult, many of the players that overall are weaker than Rondo defensively might actually be better and staying in front of their PG's. Though these same ones might have more trouble with PGs that have a lot of speed in them, so at the same time they're considered weak defenders. Yes, I know there's a bit of a contradiction there, which makes this type of comparison difficult and ultimately meaningless to me.

So if I say that House might actually be considered as a player that is better at staying in front of his man I might get laughed out of here... mainly because he's weak defensively and speedy PG's would have a field day with him. But if I could take Eddie's willingness that he showed with us, and a bit of his defensive posture and put it on Rondo, Rondo would be quite awesome on a man to man basis.

If I mention Lindsey Hunter, someone will come and say "yeah, but you're not going to trade Lindsey for Rondo... RONDO >>>>>>>>>> Hunter". Of course, so what's the point?

So yeah, it's very hard to evaluate. So you take your pony, and either you like the skill-set he brings or you don't. Overall, I like Rondo's skill-set defensively, but I put a lot of stock in keeping PG's out of the paint and in front of you. So if you ask me if I would take an inferior defender over Rondo just because he does this well I might hesitate because it's not clear, there are many factors in there. But it doesn't mean that I have to close my eyes to what is clearly one of Rondo's weaknesses defensively which can be exploited, and say all is right with the world.

  I don't disagree with a lot of what you've said in this thread but I don't think it all adds up to "Rondo is vastly overrated as a defender". If you said that Eddie has better form or puts in more effort at keeping his man in front of him you might be right. But, as you mentioned, that doesn't make him a better defender than Rondo.

  You might also be right that Hunter is much better at keeping his man in front of him than Rondo. While "Rondo is a much better pg than Hunter" is a possible rejoinder, it's also important to note that a) if Hunter doesn't play great defense he doesn't see the floor, b) that Hunter knows that he's only playing limited minutes and isn't doing much on offense so he can expend the bulk of his energy on defense, and c) he doesn't need to be concerned about getting onto foul trouble that can occur if you play overly aggressive defense.

[housecall]

Who is overrating Rondo's defense?Ive always felt KG was picking up the slack for Rondo's lackadaisical defense.Rondo can be moody at times to the point where it has affected his play on the court both defensive&offensive.But i don't feel most who watch him play are under any illusions that he is more than a medicore defender.  


Media people are excluded...i don't give them much respect for their assessments of players these days.

[BballTim]

And yep, in doesn't matter what other PG around the league are doing. All that matters is what Rondo is doing. I'm not watching all the teams around the league in a consistent basis to know who all the good defenders at the position are, nor am I paying attention to all of that. Not my interest. My interest is in what this team is doing right and what it's doing wrong.

  IMO it's meaningless to evaluate a player in a vacuum. This is no different than claiming that Ray has always been a terrible three point shooter because he makes well under half of those shots.

Also, as I mentioned, Rondo has a lot of strength in other areas of his defense. Maybe that's what the coaches are actually seeing and being impressed by? Rondo is certainly a chaotic defender and his ball pressure is very legit, his hands are very legit, his instincts are legit, his voice is legit, his athleticism and rebounding ability is legit. He's simply not a good at keeping his man in front of him. It's not his strength. Why is it so hard to understand or accept that?

  I agree that keeping his man in front of him isn't the strongest part of Rondo's defensive game. I just disagree with the assertion that he does it poorly. I think people have unrealistic expectations in this area, especially when the other team uses a pick to get the opposing PG free of Rondo.

If you'd go on and read the rest of my post, I go into it further why it's hard to compare the defensive capabilities of an NBA player, particularly in the PG position where the focus on the offensive side of the ball highly overshadows the defensive side of it. So players that might actually illustrate good defensive ability aren't getting on the floor because other flaws in their games.

  I did read the rest of your post. I generally compare Rondo to other starters. While it is possible (or even probable) that there are bench players that defend better than Rondo, I think that it's likely that if they were expected to stay on the court 36+ minutes a game and be a major part of the offense and stay out of foul trouble then you might see quite a dropoff in their defense. If you told Rondo that he was only going to play 15 minutes a game and that if he's not playing super defense he won't be out there, and just run the "give the ball to Paul and head to the corner" offense that his defense would be better than it is.

[rickyfan3.0...]

Well, it seems like there is something there. I hope it is that he is coasting, and not that he can't defend mediocre PG's.

[BballTim]

Who is overrating Rondo's defense?Ive always felt KG was picking up the slack for Rondo's lackadaisical defense.Rondo can be moody at times to the point where it has affected his play on the court both defensive&offensive.But i don't feel most who watch him play are under any illusions that he is more than a medicore defender.  

  But with KG either out of the lineup or too hobbled to play his usual defense opposing PGs aren't any more productive against us than they were last year. We do, on occasion, give up big games to opposing PGs, but it's hardly typical.

[housecall]

Who is overrating Rondo's defense?Ive always felt KG was picking up the slack for Rondo's lackadaisical defense.Rondo can be moody at times to the point where it has affected his play on the court both defensive&offensive.But i don't feel most who watch him play are under any illusions that he is more than a medicore defender.  

  But with KG either out of the lineup or too hobbled to play his usual defense opposing PGs aren't any more productive against us than they were last year. We do, on occasion, give up big games to opposing PGs, but it's hardly typical.

Thats probably true im just assessing Rondo's defense indivdually,not the  productivity of other teams aganist us.I don't know the numbers,stats,etc.of it.

[housecall]

Well, it seems like there is something there. I hope it is that he is coasting, and not that he can't defend mediocre PG's.

Rickyfan3.0...i felt in their championship season when KG was 100%healthy,he made up for the defensive letdowns,mistakes,etc.or however you want to call it that the frontline made with his great defensive prowess.Now KG is not able to make up the mistakes as often Rondo's mistakes are highlighted more.I think people notice it more now because of a 75%healthy KG.

[mmbaby]

WRONG, OP! If you can find fault with young Rhondo, ain't nobody gonna please you.

[buzz]

Rondo is very smart with quick hands and can be disruptive, but I was surprised that it was he who made 2nd Team All-Defensive last year rather than Perk.

While he struggles in some matchups against quicker guys, I feel like KP has been our best defender for a while now. Even in the championship season where KG won DPOY, Perk would routinely take the more difficult big man assignment.

[Greenbean]

Rondo is simply disruptive defender, particularly when he's pressuring the ball coming down the court. He's sneaky, plays the passing lanes well, plays from behind well, has great hands. So when the opposing PG is not taking advantage of his weakness, he's a monster. And the other side of it, the other player has to go after his weakness.

I just wish he would get a better defensive posture by keeping his knees bent. I think that's all it would take for him to become the defensive "monster" that he should be. As it is, he simply seems to be always in a upright position, and as such he's often defending sideways and from behind.

I'm not going to sit here and say he's a bad defensive player because he does do a lot of good things, and he's been very vocal coordinating our defense alongside Garnett. But I put a lot of stock in stopping PG penetration, which I deem as the most important defensive assignment of a PG. When he's failing at that it drives me nuts, and more often that not it makes our defense collapse.

Bumping this thread to give BudCelt a TP. I made it a point to watch his posture tonight and you were spot on. In the last 6 minutes when he was pressing he was in a great defensive stance. The rest of the game he was upright.

I am just not sure Rondo could keep up that defense for a whole game. It takes alot of energy.

[mmbaby]

Rhondo will be fine. Don't panic.