Can Doc turn this team's complacency around or is it up to the players?

[nickagneta]

I think we all can see that since the the Minnesota game this team has been in a seven game funk. Slow starts, slow defensive rotations, sloppy, lazy offense, lackadaisical defense, and dismal effort at times have been commonplace occurrences with this team. Is this something the coach can fix or is this something where the players have to look in the mirror, realize who the real culprits are here and change things?

So as much as this thread could be considered a "who's to blame thread", I'ld like to look at it as being a "who's more responsible for turning this around and how" thread. As with most things, it's probably a lot of both.

Doc's stars are the biggest problems with the lack of quality starts and bad defense. He has to find a way to lay the law down, get these guys to start playing like they are capable while at the same time not alienating them and losing the team, so to say. He has to get across to these guys that the second team is there to help them, not to win the games for them.

He has to get it through their heads that they will be playing less minutes and they have to give 100% every minute they are out there and can't pace themselves. The second team will allow them to stay fresh by playing less minutes but they can only play less minutes if the aren't pacing themselves and are giving that 100% all the time. It's the only way that works.

The stars have to be able to see that they are the main reasons this team is struggling. They are struggling and they aren't playing smart basketball with great defensive effort. They need to trust what the coaches are telling them and do what the coaches are telling them. When a coach says to shove the ball inside every time down the court they have to do it every time, not twice and then bombs away from the outside again. When the coaches say they have to be "junkyard dogs" with tough, in your shirt man defense, you have to do it the whole game, not for 2 minutes, get the lead up and forget about it.

The team is, at this point, lucky they have played a relatively easier than anticipated schedule, with games against teams playing dreadful(Charlotte, New Jersey, Minnesota, Golden State, New Orleans), a bunch of mediocre teams(Philadelphia, Indiana, Utah, Chicago) and only three teams playing real well(Cleveland, Phoenix, Atlanta). A tougher schedule, especially over the last two and a half weeks and this team could easily have been 6-6 or 7-5 instead of 9-3.

So who needs to get rid of this complacent aura that has permeated this team? Doc, the players, or both?

[Drucci]

Good question but I think it is basically up to the players. I'm sure Doc is telling them to show more energy, to be more aggressive and to defend better. But this is all he can do, he isn't on the court when the team goes on to a bad start or plays awful D. He can yell at them and give them motivational speeches (I'm sure he does, especially at halftime) but until a player doesn't show the way (i.e Rondo), the team will be in that funk. And it seems that losses against bad teams are not enough to motivate them.

Shelden and Perk, along with Ray, are the Celtics who play with 100% intensity this season and who are trying to make things happen, but it seems like this, along with Doc's speeches, is not enough to start a fire. I'm not saying Rondo is the guy to blame but we all know that if he plays like he did in the third quarter against GS every game, we wouldn't have these sloppiness problems. And I really do hope the team gets back on track soon because if they think they can cruise through the season - and the playoffs - by playing like this, they are in for a big disappointment.

Also, distant related to the topic, but am I the only one to get mad at Rondo when he takes about 4 seconds to catch the ball after inbound plays? I know he has been doing it for years but it translates, for me, his sloppiness and his "let's wait until a guy is open to make a pass" or "why play D on my opponent? I'd rather steal him the ball" attitude.

[nickagneta]

Good question but I think it is basically up to the players. I'm sure Doc is telling them to show more energy, to be more aggressive and to defend better. But this is all he can do, he isn't on the court when the team goes on to a bad start or plays awful D. He can yell at them and give them motivational speeches (I'm sure he does, especially at halftime) but until a player doesn't show the way (i.e Rondo), the team will be in that funk. And it seems that losses against bad teams are not enough to motivate them.

Shelden and Perk, along with Ray, are the Celtics who play with 100% intensity this season and who are trying to make things happen, but it seems like this, along with Doc's speeches, is not enough to start a fire. I'm not saying Rondo is the guy to blame but we all know that if he plays like he did in the third quarter against GS every game, we wouldn't have these sloppiness problems. And I really do hope the team gets back on track soon because if they think they can cruise through the season - and the playoffs - by playing like this, they are in for a big disappointment.

Also, distant related to the topic, but am I the only one to get mad at Rondo when he takes about 4 seconds to catch the ball after inbound plays? I know he has been doing it for years but it translates, for me, his sloppiness and his "let's wait until a guy is open to make a pass" or "why play D on my opponent? I'd rather steal him the ball" attitude.

Good post. So you don't think that maybe a hard core approach like sitting Rondo for a game or staring Williams or Daniels instead of KG or Pierce would get the message across? Would such a move ultimately be counter-productive? Or, if this malaise continues, it is up to Doc to try something hard core to wake these guys up and let them know effort is mandatory to playing or you sit?

[pengaloo]

Also, distant related to the topic, but am I the only one to get mad at Rondo when he takes about 4 seconds to catch the ball after inbound plays? I know he has been doing it for years but it translates, for me, his sloppiness and his "let's wait until a guy is open to make a pass" or "why play D on my opponent? I'd rather steal him the ball" attitude.

Maybe we're not talking about the same thing, but I've always thought that our slowness to inbound balls was our bigs' fault. After the other team scores a bucket, I often see Rondo waiting for somebody to get back and inbound the ball to him. The ball's just bouncing under the hoop. Most often, it's Perk who sprints back to throw the ball in... it almost looks like he forgot or something.

[Drucci]

Good question but I think it is basically up to the players. I'm sure Doc is telling them to show more energy, to be more aggressive and to defend better. But this is all he can do, he isn't on the court when the team goes on to a bad start or plays awful D. He can yell at them and give them motivational speeches (I'm sure he does, especially at halftime) but until a player doesn't show the way (i.e Rondo), the team will be in that funk. And it seems that losses against bad teams are not enough to motivate them.

Shelden and Perk, along with Ray, are the Celtics who play with 100% intensity this season and who are trying to make things happen, but it seems like this, along with Doc's speeches, is not enough to start a fire. I'm not saying Rondo is the guy to blame but we all know that if he plays like he did in the third quarter against GS every game, we wouldn't have these sloppiness problems. And I really do hope the team gets back on track soon because if they think they can cruise through the season - and the playoffs - by playing like this, they are in for a big disappointment.

Also, distant related to the topic, but am I the only one to get mad at Rondo when he takes about 4 seconds to catch the ball after inbound plays? I know he has been doing it for years but it translates, for me, his sloppiness and his "let's wait until a guy is open to make a pass" or "why play D on my opponent? I'd rather steal him the ball" attitude.

Good post. So you don't think that maybe a hard core approach like sitting Rondo for a game or staring Williams or Daniels instead of KG or Pierce would get the message across? Would such a move ultimately be counter-productive? Or, if this malaise continues, it is up to Doc to try something hard core to wake these guys up and let them know effort is mandatory to playing or you sit?

I was thinking about this kind of move - replacing a starter by a player from the bench -, and it's sure up to Doc but I just don't see him doing it. He wouldn't make such a move. But it could be interesting if it happened. Anyway, I'm sure you feel too that this team has had many wake-up calls so far and they have done nothing to really wake up, so I don't know what will make them move. That's why the game against Orlando will be interesting. I sure dislike the fact that our team seems to have taken the habit of being complacent with bad teams, but if they step it up for every "big" game (Orlando, Lakers, Cavs, Spurs, etc) and win it impressively, I will be at least reassured, knowing that it's not a question of age/lack of ability.

If they don't play with intensity and desire against the team that knocked them out of the playoffs last year, then I'm going to push the panic button. We'll see.

Also, distant related to the topic, but am I the only one to get mad at Rondo when he takes about 4 seconds to catch the ball after inbound plays? I know he has been doing it for years but it translates, for me, his sloppiness and his "let's wait until a guy is open to make a pass" or "why play D on my opponent? I'd rather steal him the ball" attitude.

Maybe we're not talking about the same thing, but I've always thought that our slowness to inbound balls was our bigs' fault. After the other team scores a bucket, I often see Rondo waiting for somebody to get back and inbound the ball to him. The ball's just bouncing under the hoop. Most often, it's Perk who sprints back to throw the ball in... it almost looks like he forgot or something.

No, I wasn't thinking about the fact you mentioned (though if seems to always happen, indeed), but talking about the fact that, after the inbound player has put the ball on the court, Rondo lets the ball rebound 3 or 4 times without touching it and then he finally picks it up. It probably means me nothing and I'm starting to see touches of laziness all around his behaviour but it still makes me mad more often than not.

[fairweatherfan]

If they don't play with intensity and desire against the team that knocked them out of the playoffs last year, then I'm going to push the panic button. We'll see.

Agreed.  We can chalk some of the complacency up to Pistonitis, but if they don't get up to play Orlando something is seriously wrong.  I don't think we'll have to worry about that though.

[amenhotep04]

Nice post Nick. Good job with that.

While the players have to play, if it were simply the players, then coaches wouldn't be that important. I tend to believe coaches have more impact than probably most fans. While work has kept me busy so far this season, what games I have watched, with the exception of the first two, I'm stunned by the play I've seen. During the first half of last night's game, I thought I was watching the 2006 Celtics. They looked pathetic. I would like to see Doc shake things up.

Players do police each other, but they look slow, and as Perk said, sloppy. They do not appear to be disciplined on defense nor offense.

[nickagneta]

Nice post Nick. Good job with that.

While the players have to play, if it were simply the players, then coaches wouldn't be that important. I tend to believe coaches have more impact than probably most fans. While work has kept me busy so far this season, what games I have watched, with the exception of the first two, I'm stunned by the play I've seen. During the first half of last night's game, I thought I was watching the 2006 Celtics. They looked pathetic. I would like to see Doc shake things up.

Players do police each other, but they look slow, and as Perk said, sloppy. They do not appear to be disciplined on defense nor offense.

You hit the nail on the head with what I think is missing, discipline. There seems to be none and for that reason I think this may come down to Doc having to do something unexpected. Is it possible the players have tuned him out? Do they now feel they can coach themselves?

I'm not sure this complacency is Doc's fault but if it continues it is going to be up to him to end it or have it end him.

[SalmonAndMashedPotatoes]

Also, distant related to the topic, but am I the only one to get mad at Rondo when he takes about 4 seconds to catch the ball after inbound plays? I know he has been doing it for years but it translates, for me, his sloppiness and his "let's wait until a guy is open to make a pass" or "why play D on my opponent? I'd rather steal him the ball" attitude.

Maybe we're not talking about the same thing, but I've always thought that our slowness to inbound balls was our bigs' fault. After the other team scores a bucket, I often see Rondo waiting for somebody to get back and inbound the ball to him. The ball's just bouncing under the hoop. Most often, it's Perk who sprints back to throw the ball in... it almost looks like he forgot or something.

No, I wasn't thinking about the fact you mentioned (though if seems to always happen, indeed), but talking about the fact that, after the inbound player has put the ball on the court, Rondo lets the ball rebound 3 or 4 times without touching it and then he finally picks it up. It probably means me nothing and I'm starting to see touches of laziness all around his behaviour but it still makes me mad more often than not.

That play is simple to explain--by waiting a few bounces to touch the ball, Rondo is 'saving' some shot clock time.  The shot clock doesn't begin until he touches the ball, and therefore, by letting the ball bounce up the court 10 to 15 feet, he's able to save 2-3 seconds for the possession.  And, for every shot clock second saved, the offensive efficiency of that possession increases.  For the most part, this is a smart play and other PGs around the league, like Chris Paul, do it frequently.  It only becomes troublesome if the opposing point guard sneaks in and steals the ball, something which almost happened against the Magic in the playoffs last season.

Conversely, one of the million reasons House is terrible at point guard is that his inadequate ballhandling ability causing him to waste 4-5 seconds bringing the ball up, lost seconds which result in low efficiency offensive possessions. 

[fairweatherfan]

Also, distant related to the topic, but am I the only one to get mad at Rondo when he takes about 4 seconds to catch the ball after inbound plays? I know he has been doing it for years but it translates, for me, his sloppiness and his "let's wait until a guy is open to make a pass" or "why play D on my opponent? I'd rather steal him the ball" attitude.

I've always wondered, since the clock isn't running while he's letting the ball bounce, shouldn't that be counting against our 5 seconds? I guess it's just 5 seconds for the ball to hit the floor inbounds or a player.

I don't have a problem with Rondo doing this as long as opponents don't get the chance to go after the ball.  Especially in late-quarter situations, or when we're trying to make a comeback, saving the 3-4 seconds it takes to get to halfcourt doesn't just give us extra time to score, but gets the offense time to be completely set up before the shot clock starts.

[crownsy]

Also, distant related to the topic, but am I the only one to get mad at Rondo when he takes about 4 seconds to catch the ball after inbound plays? I know he has been doing it for years but it translates, for me, his sloppiness and his "let's wait until a guy is open to make a pass" or "why play D on my opponent? I'd rather steal him the ball" attitude.

Maybe we're not talking about the same thing, but I've always thought that our slowness to inbound balls was our bigs' fault. After the other team scores a bucket, I often see Rondo waiting for somebody to get back and inbound the ball to him. The ball's just bouncing under the hoop. Most often, it's Perk who sprints back to throw the ball in... it almost looks like he forgot or something.

No, I wasn't thinking about the fact you mentioned (though if seems to always happen, indeed), but talking about the fact that, after the inbound player has put the ball on the court, Rondo lets the ball rebound 3 or 4 times without touching it and then he finally picks it up. It probably means me nothing and I'm starting to see touches of laziness all around his behaviour but it still makes me mad more often than not.

That play is simple to explain--by waiting a few bounces to touch the ball, Rondo is 'saving' some shot clock time.  The shot clock doesn't begin until he touches the ball, and therefore, by letting the ball bounce up the court 10 to 15 feet, he's able to save 2-3 seconds for the possession.  And, for every shot clock second saved, the offensive efficiency of that possession increases.  For the most part, this is a smart play and other PGs around the league, like Chris Paul, do it frequently.  It only becomes troublesome if the opposing point guard sneaks in and steals the ball, something which almost happened against the Magic in the playoffs last season.

Conversely, one of the million reasons House is terrible at point guard is that his inadequate ballhandling ability causing him to waste 4-5 seconds bringing the ball up, lost seconds which result in low efficiency offensive possessions. 

TP for saving me typing, walking the dog, as that technique is called, is pretty normal for PG's in situations where their team is looking to extend the clock. It saves 4-5 seconds each time on the game clock.

[soap07]

Rondo has done that for years.

[Drucci]

Rondo has done that for years.

I'm not saying this is new, but it makes me mad sometimes, but I must be overreacting. I knew he does it to save shot clock too but sometimes I think he gambles too much with it when his defender is just right in front of him.

But we're going off-topic so I will stop there on this subject. Thanks for the answers anyway!

[LB3533]

I think if Rondo or Paul are not aggressive then we will be stuck in this complacency.

Doc can only do so much.