Why are there so few white American players in the NBA?

[cordobes]

The fact that nickcagneta and guava_wrench made the argument that black Brazilian aren't necessarily black but are naturally dark because  their native inhabitants were dark skinned or are more genetically similar to the northern asians shows the amount of credibility they deserve on this issue. It's a complete fabrication - most black brazilians are from African descent and arrived just a couple of centuries ago - but very convenient to support some political and pseudo-scientific beliefs.

[Andy Jick]

Many, many years ago when I was twenty-three
I was married to a widow who was pretty as could be.
This widow had a grown-up daughter who had hair of red.
My father fell in love with her and soon they, too, were wed.

This made my dad my son-in-law and changed my very life
For my daughter was my mother, 'cause she was my father's wife.
To complicate the matter, even though it brought me joy
I soon became the father of a bouncing baby boy.

My little baby then became a brother-in-law to dad
And so became my uncle, though it made me very sad
For if he was my uncle, then that also made him brother
To the widow's grown-up daughter, who, of course, was my step-mother.

My father's wife then had a son who kept them on the run
And he became my grand-child, 'cause he was my daughter's son.
My wife is now my mother's mother, and it makes me blue
Because, although she is my wife, she's my grandmother too.

If my wife is my grandmother, then I am her grandchild
And every time I think of it, it nearly drives me wild
For now I have become the strangest case you ever saw
(This has got to be the strangest thing I ever saw)
As husband of my grandmother, I am my own grandpaw.

Chorus
I'm my own grandpaw
I'm my own grandpaw
It sounds funny I know
but it really is so
Oh, I'm my own grandpaw.

[Mencius]

Calling Brazilians black completely obfuscates this thread. Their ancestors crossed into the Americas ten thousand years ago by spreading through North Asia. They are more genetically similar to the northern asians that were there before being replaced by the ancestors of what we normally think of as Chinese. Some of the closest genetic relatives of the 'native american' populations are probably in SE Asia.

Using skin tone as a gauge of relatedness or genetic similarity is severely misguided.

Pretty specious reasoning.  No one called Brazilians black any more than anyone called Americans black.  We're talking about the composition of the team, not the entire nation.  Here's a photo of the Brazilian national team.  I don't know what the admixture of these players are, but it is clear that seven of these players are of primarily African descent.



There are plenty of phenomena apart from genetic potential to explain the lack of white NBA players (doesn't make sense to separate Euro players if genetics is going to be an argument) or the decline in black MLB players.

...

There are so many social factors involved that arguing the genetic one seems a copout.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  You provide none of that.  I offer up the reason that anyone can see, without coming up with all sorts of convoluted socio-economic rationales.

I would argue that the genetic argument may in fact be a sign of racism in light of the fact that this discussion ONLY seems to happen when discussing black dominated sports.

This was as predictable a response as the sun rising in the east.  The explosive athleticism reason was offered as a reason for the predominance of blacks in the NBA, and that they are preeminent in such explosive athletic events as sprinting and jumping was offered as an example of their dominance in those things, and that if all other skills were developed equally, those with the greatest athleticism would be at advantage, hence the over-representation in the league.

There's no racial animus involved in pointing out that blacks have more explosive athleticism than other groups.  It seems patently obvious.  To argue otherwise would require something greater than suggesting racist motives, given the history of Olympic sprinting and jumping, and the NBA and NFL (once opened up to all races).  My explanation seems the obviously true one.  Yours requires convoluted rationale that requires a suspension of belief of what your own eyes tell you. 

No one makes this arguments in white or asian dominated sports, like olympic weight lifting or diving. Why do we seek genetic arguments when blacks overperform, but not when whites overperform?

I don't follow weight lifting or diving other than to occasionally tune in during the olympics, but neither require the explosive running and jumping that I was speaking of.  Apples and oranges.

[indeedproceed]

If you're good enough you'll make it no matter what color you are.

I think the NBA has the best basketball players in the world. Sure, maybe there are a fair amount of players in Europe that could survive in the NBA, but I don't think any of them would dominate.

Until white american players get better they won't be playing in the NBA. I don't think its about genetics, I think its about skill level.

[Andy Jick]

i guess maybe we forget how good argentina looked in winning the 2004 gold medal in men's basketball.  they looked pretty good...and pretty caucasian.

[Amonkey]

The fact that nickcagneta and guava_wrench made the argument that black Brazilian aren't necessarily black but are naturally dark because  their native inhabitants were dark skinned or are more genetically similar to the northern asians shows the amount of credibility they deserve on this issue. It's a complete fabrication - most black brazilians are from African descent and arrived just a couple of centuries ago - but very convenient to support some political and pseudo-scientific beliefs.

Although they were wrong, I think it's good to clear up the misconceptions because I am pretty sure they weren't the only ones to think that way.  That's why it's good to get into these conversations.  This way we can right the misconceptions and view the different points of view that we normally wouldn't otherwise know.

Also, if you'd like to know what a mixture of races would look like, just look at Brazilians.  Most Brazilians have some African descent, there are lot of European descents (if you live on the Cape you might notice a rise of white Brazilians due to the region they are coming from, the south), and Brazil also has the largest population of Japanese and Lebanese people living outside of Japan and Lebanon.  For the most part, many of these groups have mixed (with the exception of Japanese).  I for example have Native Brazilian, African (possible Angola), Portuguese, Greek, Italian and possibly German blood running through my veins.

[indeedproceed]

i guess maybe we forget how good argentina looked in winning the 2004 gold medal in men's basketball.  they looked pretty good...and pretty caucasian.

I thought a key part of the comment was american?

[guava_wrench]

No one makes this arguments in white or asian dominated sports, like olympic weight lifting or diving. Why do we seek genetic arguments when blacks overperform, but not when whites overperform?

No one? Really? Lots of people do. That clearly doesn't stop you from making straw man arguments.

Perhaps these discussion never make it to the US then, because basketball and track and field are the only ones that usually induce genetic arguments, unless we include Jimmy the Greek's views on buoyancy. Has anyone here heard a genetic argument for why Chinese dominate diving and Americans have fallen behind?

[edit]I will defer to him on the Brazilian argument. I am always ready to admit I was wrong there[edit]. I don't know much about Brazil. I know even less about soccer. I do know plenty about genetics.

Personally, my view is one that seems obvious. There are genes that are likely to be expressed in ways that are advantageous in certain athletic contexts. Like all genes, these will be more common in certain populations. This seems to indicate that we can statistically expect certain population to be overrepresented in certain sports if we are able to control for confounding variables, particularly social variables.

The problem is applying this to specifics, especially when there is so much literature about phenomena such as stereotype threat and stereotype lift that have highly significant effects on performance.

This genetic discussions become far stickier when intellectual ability is brought into the discussion, but the same reasoning can be used.

The big question in all of this is how big is the effect of having advantageous genes. I expect that the effect is more than is politically correct to acknowledge. Still, we are far from finding the boundaries of athletic potentials for individuals based on genes regardless of training. While there is likely a portion of variability in athletic ability that can be attributed to genetics, we have no idea which genes are more common in particular populations and if they are significant enough to have a measurable effect when environment is controlled for.

We can make conclusions based on correlations, but correlations don't prove causality.

EDIT: no need to personally direct remarks like that.

[guava_wrench]

Calling Brazilians black completely obfuscates this thread. Their ancestors crossed into the Americas ten thousand years ago by spreading through North Asia. They are more genetically similar to the northern asians that were there before being replaced by the ancestors of what we normally think of as Chinese. Some of the closest genetic relatives of the 'native american' populations are probably in SE Asia.

Using skin tone as a gauge of relatedness or genetic similarity is severely misguided.

Pretty specious reasoning.  No one called Brazilians black any more than anyone called Americans black.  We're talking about the composition of the team, not the entire nation.  Here's a photo of the Brazilian national team.  I don't know what the admixture of these players are, but it is clear that seven of these players are of primarily African descent.



There are plenty of phenomena apart from genetic potential to explain the lack of white NBA players (doesn't make sense to separate Euro players if genetics is going to be an argument) or the decline in black MLB players.

...

There are so many social factors involved that arguing the genetic one seems a copout.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.  You provide none of that.  I offer up the reason that anyone can see, without coming up with all sorts of convoluted socio-economic rationales.

I would argue that the genetic argument may in fact be a sign of racism in light of the fact that this discussion ONLY seems to happen when discussing black dominated sports.

This was as predictable a response as the sun rising in the east.  The explosive athleticism reason was offered as a reason for the predominance of blacks in the NBA, and that they are preeminent in such explosive athletic events as sprinting and jumping was offered as an example of their dominance in those things, and that if all other skills were developed equally, those with the greatest athleticism would be at advantage, hence the over-representation in the league.

There's no racial animus involved in pointing out that blacks have more explosive athleticism than other groups.  It seems patently obvious.  To argue otherwise would require something greater than suggesting racist motives, given the history of Olympic sprinting and jumping, and the NBA and NFL (once opened up to all races).  My explanation seems the obviously true one.  Yours requires convoluted rationale that requires a suspension of belief of what your own eyes tell you. 

No one makes this arguments in white or asian dominated sports, like olympic weight lifting or diving. Why do we seek genetic arguments when blacks overperform, but not when whites overperform?

I don't follow weight lifting or diving other than to occasionally tune in during the olympics, but neither require the explosive running and jumping that I was speaking of.  Apples and oranges.

It seems you do a good job of trying not to grasp what I said in my post to avoid responding. Apples & oranges? Not at all in the context of my post. I am not at all opposed to the idea of genetic influences. My point is that over-representation happens in many sports. We don't wonder if genes cause Chinese brains and bodies to be better at graceful and coordinated movements, thus their success in diving. The point is the evidence can be interpreted in many ways. There is no where near enough data to make strong conclusions on these issues.

You say I need to provide the evidence when you are forcing causation out of correlation.

[Edgar]

Why not to think is just a cultural
and LOVE For the GAME thing.

[guava_wrench]

i guess maybe we forget how good argentina looked in winning the 2004 gold medal in men's basketball.  they looked pretty good...and pretty caucasian.

I thought a key part of the comment was american?

The American part became irrelevant when the genetic discussion began.

Of course, the Argentina argument is a significant point that can be made without resolving the genetic issue. The point being that Argentina was not as athletic as the US, but they were able to win. Someone like Tim Duncan doesn't have blazing speed, nor does he have Birdman like pogo abilities, yet he has dominated in the NBA. (Let's ignore the whole Virgin Islands issue for now)

Why are there so many more foreign born white players excelling in the NBA (including 2 recent MVPs) and so few US raised white players excelling? Who are the best white American players in the NBA right now? It seems like all near future white HOF candidates will be foreign born.

One problem with this argument is the fact that race is a continuum. Where do you put someone like Kidd if you aren't someone who considers any 'non-white' ancestry as an impurity?

[Edgar]

U know.. Thats why I really hate this kind of threads

To be honest, people should realize that high level athletes can be from any race, I think Olimpycs pretty much shows that
And after all, is about how much you dedicate, love and practice a game and how much support you get from your country while doing it.
Of course, You have to have a phisical kind of profile for some kind of sports but there are short people and tall people in all races.
I am ending this debate here because its becoming old and boring, and people tend to take it personally and generates extra effort from mods.
Thanks

Edgar