Help - Need Info about Ainge and rebuilding

[TrueGreen]

To say that Ainge wasn't responsible for rebuilding the Celtics just shows lack of knowledge. Those of us Celtic fans who live in or near Boston get more info than those who don't. When Danny took over the C's were beaten up physically and had gone as far as they could go. Past management said their players weren't tradeable. Ainge proved that to be wrong. But, to really understand what Ainge did I believe you have to remember him as a player. He was tough, feisty, hard working and not afraid to take chances. He was also very knowledgable about the things Red Auerbach did. As GM he is persistent. He decides what he wants and goes after it as opposed to waiting for things to come to him. In his first draft he wanted Marcus Banks and Kendrick Perkins. Seeing how the draft might go he made a deal with Memphis that got him what he wanted. He wasn't afaid to make moves that he knew may or may not work out, but he kept making them until he got what he wanted. Not to belabor this, but Phoenix and LA were KG's first choices when he realized he was no longer wanted in Minny. If Phoenix game up Stoudemire or LA gave up Bynum they probably could have had them. Ainge had the guts to give up Al Jefferson who was a developing star. Even though Minny accepted that deal KG still didn't want to come to Boston because he wasn't sure the C's were really interested in bringing in players that could win and he wasn't sure he wanted to live in Boston. KG could opt out the year after the trade so he had to agree to an extension before the deal could be done. KG talked to his friends about Boston as a city while Ainge satisfied one ? by the draft day deal to get Ray Allen. I think this opened KG's eyes abit, but it wasn't a done deal. It became a done deal when Danny got permission to talk to KG face to face. Danny is honest and "tells it like it is". KG saw this and soon after it was history. You can nitpick on all the moves Ainge made that didn't work out, but he ended up with the banner. One more thing--read all about these coaches being fired lately? Well Doc was not winning. Doc knew why, but more importantly Danny understood the conditions under which Doc was working. Danny understood that Doc couldn't win until he got the players who could win. Danny got the players and he kept Paul Pierce here.

[LB3533]

Ainge's original plan was to stay competitive while hoping one or two of his young draft picks would become a star to help Pierce.

You can see this strategy through the trades for Raef/Jiri, EW/Ricky Davis, Blount/Wally.....

Ainge didn't stock pile assets until he realized he COULD NOT STAY competitive with the teams he constructed or modify.

Honestly, the theory of "stocking up assets and young players, in the hopes of trading them for superstars" is flawed.

There has to be "that other team" who is willing to part with their superstar and "that other team" has to view our assets and young players as something worthy or equal value of that superstar.

The Celtics were lucky in the fact that:

1. They didn't win the lottery, instead won the 5th pick in 2007 Draft.

2. There was a Seattle Supersonic franchise who were losing and in transition to moving to a new location.

3. The incompetence of Kevin McHale...

4. Kevin McHale's ties to the Celtics....had McHale not been a former Celtic...I don't see KG in a C's uniform, I see him in a Warriors or Lakers uniform.

*5. This is probably one of the most important factors...our ownership pushed extremely hard to keep Paul Pierce. Danny Ainge was very close to trading Paul Pierce at the end of the 2004-2005 season. (Pierce wasn't getting along with 1st year head coach Doc Rivers, Pierce "embarrassed himself" in the playoffs against Indy and C's lost that series, the local papers trashed Pierce and the C's for losing to a 6th seeded Pacers; Pierce was almost traded to the Blazers for what would have been Chris Paul/Bonzi Wells). 

[BballTim]

Ainge's original plan was to stay competitive while hoping one or two of his young draft picks would become a star to help Pierce.

You can see this strategy through the trades for Raef/Jiri, EW/Ricky Davis, Blount/Wally.....

Ainge didn't stock pile assets until he realized he COULD NOT STAY competitive with the teams he constructed or modify.

  Ainge talked about acquiring assets or "chips" when he traded Antoine to Dallas. He didn't start on it years later.

Honestly, the theory of "stocking up assets and young players, in the hopes of trading them for superstars" is flawed.

There has to be "that other team" who is willing to part with their superstar and "that other team" has to view our assets and young players as something worthy or equal value of that superstar.

  There seem to be a regular stream of teams willing to trade star players, and they rarely if ever get equal value for the players they trade away.

The Celtics were lucky in the fact that:

1. They didn't win the lottery, instead won the 5th pick in 2007 Draft.

  Why was that lucky? We'd be building around Al and Oden/Durant and Rondo with PP and we still could have made the KG or RA trade if we wanted or picked up someone else.

4. Kevin McHale's ties to the Celtics....had McHale not been a former Celtic...I don't see KG in a C's uniform, I see him in a Warriors or Lakers uniform.

  How do you think that worked? Did he go to the owner and say "sure, I had better offers, but I'm taking lesser players and picks to help the team I played for. LA would likely have to offer significantly more than us to even be in the running as they probably wanted to get him out of the conference.

[LB3533]

BBallTim,

For much of Danny Ainge's reign as the man in charge of the Celtics front office, he has "talked" and "walked" and not all in the same manner or direction.

What we saw is what we got.

We saw "sideway deal" after "sideway deal".

We saw two phases of rebuilding, once after Obie, and the 2nd after Doc River's 1st season as Celtic head coach.

We saw Pierce, being the best Celtic in years and his recovery and overcoming of his stabbing was a great story to Pierce being vilified, casted as a selfish player who butted heads with Doc Rivers, and ultimately the city and the local media wanted Pierce gone.

We saw backward moves or at the very least "inconsistent moves" by Ainge....re-trading for Toine, acquiring aging old "has beens" in Gary Payton, Tom Gugliotta, and Theo Ratliff, trading for older and more broken down players in Raef and Wally, and Theo.

In the midst of these maneuvers, Ainge did stock pile younger talent and draft picks...he ALSO DID give some away (Brandon Roy, Ricky Davis, future 1st rounders to reacquire Toine and for Rajon Rondo).

What actually worked for Ainge was Doc Rivers making Ricky Davis the 6th Man, and the drafting of Al Jefferson and Ryan Gomes and to a certain extent Delonte West.

What were Ainge's misses?

- Extending Jim O'Brien's contract

- Injured Raef + Jiri "Hondo" Welsch

- Marcus Banks

- Signing of Brian Scalabrini

- Signing of Mark Blount

- Ricky Davis as the team's 2nd option

- Injury prone Wally World

- Trading for Sebastian Telfair and in the process giving up Brandon Roy/Rudy Gay/Randy Foye

Lastly I want to mention McHale and the T-Wolves owner.

Do not be so naive to think that the T-Wolves Taylor, has the best interest in mind for that franchise....it was the same owner that allowed McHale to conduct shady contracts with the Joe Smith deal. It was the same owner that allowed McHale to keep his job for all this time while he was unable to surround Kevin Garnett with quality NBA players.

So yes, I believe it if Kevin McHale told his owner whatever it is that he told him in order to sell the KG/Big Al deal...Taylor trusted McHale.

[BballTim]

BBallTim,

For much of Danny Ainge's reign as the man in charge of the Celtics front office, he has "talked" and "walked" and not all in the same manner or direction.

What we saw is what we got.

We saw "sideway deal" after "sideway deal".

We saw two phases of rebuilding, once after Obie, and the 2nd after Doc River's 1st season as Celtic head coach.

We saw Pierce, being the best Celtic in years and his recovery and overcoming of his stabbing was a great story to Pierce being vilified, casted as a selfish player who butted heads with Doc Rivers, and ultimately the city and the local media wanted Pierce gone.

We saw backward moves or at the very least "inconsistent moves" by Ainge....re-trading for Toine, acquiring aging old "has beens" in Gary Payton, Tom Gugliotta, and Theo Ratliff, trading for older and more broken down players in Raef and Wally, and Theo.

In the midst of these maneuvers, Ainge did stock pile younger talent and draft picks...he ALSO DID give some away (Brandon Roy, Ricky Davis, future 1st rounders to reacquire Toine and for Rajon Rondo).

What actually worked for Ainge was Doc Rivers making Ricky Davis the 6th Man, and the drafting of Al Jefferson and Ryan Gomes and to a certain extent Delonte West.

What were Ainge's misses?

- Extending Jim O'Brien's contract

- Injured Raef + Jiri "Hondo" Welsch

- Marcus Banks

- Signing of Brian Scalabrini

- Signing of Mark Blount

- Ricky Davis as the team's 2nd option

- Injury prone Wally World

- Trading for Sebastian Telfair and in the process giving up Brandon Roy/Rudy Gay/Randy Foye

Lastly I want to mention McHale and the T-Wolves owner.

Do not be so naive to think that the T-Wolves Taylor, has the best interest in mind for that franchise....it was the same owner that allowed McHale to conduct shady contracts with the Joe Smith deal. It was the same owner that allowed McHale to keep his job for all this time while he was unable to surround Kevin Garnett with quality NBA players.

So yes, I believe it if Kevin McHale told his owner whatever it is that he told him in order to sell the KG/Big Al deal...Taylor trusted McHale.

  For starters, for all that you wrote, "Ainge didn't stock pile assets until he realized he COULD NOT STAY competitive with the teams he constructed or modify" is still completely false. He spoke about it regularly when he traded Walker to Dallas. Talking about some mistakes he made along the way doesn't change things.

  A few other points:

  Did Payton cost us much more than Mihm? Was Gugliotta more that a vet min player to fill out the roster? Clearly neither of them were part of any long term strategy.

  Nice job criticizing Danny for throwing away a first rounder to acquire Rondo. You're one of the few that hold that view.

  That whole Telfair/Ratliff/Roy/Gay/Foye deal brought us the expiring contract we needed to trade those chips he was acquiring for a star, namely KG. Many people here are happy with the way that turned out. I'll email Ainge and see if I can get him to apologize to you for that whole "winning the title" thing.

  Did Ainge have some misses? Of course he did. But look what else happened during that time. He turned a crappy roster with only one really valuable asset (Pierce) into the best team into the nba in a relatively short period of time with only 2 picks (a 5 and a 7) in the top 10. He took some chances with mixed results.

  And are you really claiming that the fact that Taylor made a bad choice or two means that he doesn't have the best interests of the franchise at heart? That's ridiculous. You could just as easily say that Wyc doesn't care a bit about the Celts because he didn't fire Ainge after some of those questionable moves that he made.

[JBcat]

I believe looking back that Ainge was going at this in 2 ways 1) to aquire enough chips to trade for top level talent or 2) go into a complete rebuilding mode.   Evidence of the first is the Iverson and Boozer rumors that I think were roughly a year or so prior to the trades that went down for KG and Allen.   Evidence of #2 was when trade rumors circulated Paul Pierce for the draft rights of Chris Paul a few years back. 

Ainge's draft record speaks for itself as someone laid out his draft history.  It allowed us to go in either direction.  If we landed that #1 or #2 pick we don't really know how close Ainge would have drafted say Durant and traded Pierce for a complete rebuilding mode.  I do believe a complete rebuilding mode would have eventually been a success (not on the scale of our current team possibly but a very nice team with Perk, Jefferson, say Durant, Rondo and whoever we traded Pierce for). I think Ainge's moves really allowed for the flexibility to go in either direction.  The 2 big expiring contracts in Ratliff and Wally maybe were planned out to allow us to really go after the big guns but we don't really know for sure.  Looking back at those 2 big trades for KG and Allen not many teams could offer a package of a huge expiring contract along with some good young talent and draft picks such as we did while keeping Pierce, Rondo, and even Perk.  Very impressive. 

[slamdunk]

The reason the Celtics got KG was because they had Al Jefferson. There was no conspiracy between McHale and the Celtics. If there was, then the Celtics wouldn't have had to give up Al or Gomes.

[Roy Hobbs]

I think Danny changes directions mid-stream.  At first, he seemed to favor a "rebuilding while staying competitive" model.  He considered a "total rebuild" for awhile (i.e., trading Paul), which he then modified again to "stockpile assets and surround Paul Pierce with elite talent".  All during his tenure, Danny has been looking for undervalued talent (whether it be due to injury, attitude, unrealized potential, or whatever) and stock piling talent through the draft.

The only move of Danny's tenure, in my opinion, that wasn't really defensible on any level was trading a draft pick for Antoine Walker.  I think that was an ownership-driven move for revenue / fan purposes.  Other than that, every other Ainge move has been understandable, if not wise (i.e., the Antoine for Raef deal was ultimately a loser, but I see why Danny made the gamble that he did.)

[Roy Hobbs]

There was a great deal of luck in Danny landing KG and Ray, but he also put the team in pretty good position to make the trades.  I think even Danny would admit that he didn't think he would land KG *and* Ray, but he was smart enough to make a good trade for Ray that left over some decent assets for KG.  (I mention that Danny didn't think he could get both because he originally tried to trade Big Al and the #5 for KG; that wouldn't have left us in a position to still get Ray.)  However, while every good GM benefits from luck, Danny positioned the team well to take advantage of the opportunities presented to him.

I think it's strange that anybody would suggest McHale did us a favor in trading us KG.  What other team was offering a better package?  Golden State potentially *could* have (Biedrins, Monta, Wright), and Phoenix could have traded Amare, but neither of those teams pulled the trigger (Phoenix wanted to trade Marion, and Golden State didn't want to give up Biedrins or Monta, but certainly not both).  Big Al + Gomes + draft picks is a good return, and Telfair and Green weren't terrible, either.

[hwangjini_1]

geez, i am sure am glad ainge is simply luckier than all the other GMs in the nba. he lucked the celtics to number 17.

perhaps luck is normal in winning a championship. red sure got lucky with some of his trades and picks. and he certainly bombed on some deals. but he hit homeruns with other deals and picks.

some of his deals did not work. some of his draft choices did not pan out.

but some of the deals did work. some of his draft choices did pan out.

he did make the deal for allen. and for kg. and did draft perk and rondo. and he kept pierce when for a while it looked as if pierce was headed out of town.

all in all, i dont see much to complain about. he turned antoine and others into kg, allen, rondo, perk and #17.

if you folks want to credit luck more than ainge, fine by me. i would not be any less happy with the current championship team.

[BballTim]

I think Danny changes directions mid-stream.  At first, he seemed to favor a "rebuilding while staying competitive" model.  He considered a "total rebuild" for awhile (i.e., trading Paul), which he then modified again to "stockpile assets and surround Paul Pierce with elite talent".

  That was mainly an effort to get Chris Paul, right? It's not like he spent a ton of time pursuing a "total rebuild" path. He saw an opportunity to get a franchise player. That's kind of like saying that someone who buys a lottery ticket changed their long term financial plan to "get rich quick" and then changed back to their original strategy when that idea failed.

The only move of Danny's tenure, in my opinion, that wasn't really defensible on any level was trading a draft pick for Antoine Walker.  I think that was an ownership-driven move for revenue / fan purposes.  Other than that, every other Ainge move has been understandable, if not wise (i.e., the Antoine for Raef deal was ultimately a loser, but I see why Danny made the gamble that he did.)

  I didn't have a huge problem with it. They had 7-8 "kids" on the roster and about 3 extra first round picks. They might have been able to flip it for a future first rounder but they really didn't want another big crop of rookies on the roster. The Antoine trade brought them a division title so the trade probably paid off about as much as they expected it to.

[Schupac]

Of course luck is a factor, it always is.  The Celtics bad luck ran with Tim Duncan, Len Bias, and Reggie Lewis.  The bad luck ran with the #5 overall pick.

The good luck came in that two other teams were looking to trade.  (Oh yeah and pretty much every year PRIOR to the Tim Duncan thing).

Luck is as much a factor for everybody.  Danny made good moves.  Yes, he hoarded assets and tradeable players.  But remember a few years ago, the entire league talking about how many, and how many great, young players the bulls had?  How are they doing now?  We probably have 4 (and maybe 5) players better than anyone on their roster.  Why didn't Chicago get Ray Allen and Garnett?

Because DA wasn't in charge.