Another Trade with the Spurs

[Who]

Johnson was 6MOTY.

Off topic but why was Keldon Johnson 6MOY?

He is a strong bench player / decent starter but I do not look at him as some standout bench player. He causes no major matchup problems. He has no advanced skills in terms of shooting, ball-handling, passing, or shot-creation. He is not a top defensive player. He is a good worker. A solid all-rounder.

I don't get how he got 6MOY this year. I was surprised he was even a candidate. Never mind that he won.

[Who]

Jaylen Brown & Wemby reminds of a Dwight Howard story. The Orlando GM decided not to sign Vince Carter in the 2007 or 2008 FA and signed Rashard Lewis instead. His reasoning was that Vince would get in the way of Dwight's development. That Vince would need more of the ball and be more of a strong personality in that locker room.

I thought it was a bad decision at the time and still do.

However ... I do wonder about that line of thinking with Jaylen and Wemby. The Spurs are playing so well already. I would be reluctant to rock the boat if I were them. I'd have no hesitation if SAS was a 40-45 win team like ORL was back then. But when you are a 60+ win team and one of the top 2 teams in the playoffs ... I'd have similar concerns as the Orlando GM.

I love the chemistry of the SAS team with less talented fowards in Julian Champagnie and Keldon Johnson. Worker bees who are happy playing smaller roles. Guys who let Wemby and their star guards be the main attraction. It works. Why mess with something that works so well? I wouldn't. I would pass on Jaylen if I were SAS.

[jambr380]

I can't believe people are willing to accept Fox in a trade for Jaylen. Dude was just traded for a couple of mediocre draft picks and filler salary, and then signed to a contract well beyond what he is worth. We are giving up a much better player signed to three more years in his prime.

Can someone explain to me why in the world we would want to make this kind of deal? There is no upside with young talent and not nearly enough current talent coming back. Just some adequate depth pieces.

But it isn?t a Fox for Brown trade. There are other assets invoved. Also, Fox as a 1st option was a 26pt/6ast/5reb player. He also led the league in steals one year. Fox has been an All-NBA player and all-star. He?s also younger than JB. 

Johnson was 6MOTY. Saying he?s just a depth piece is like saying Pritchard is just a depth piece, which wouldn?t be accurate. Johnson averaged 22ppg a few seasons ago. He?s also only 26 years old.

If/When Milwaukee trades Giannis, they aren?t getting equivalent value back. When KG came to Boston, Wolves did not get equal value back. That?s just how it goes. If you have to move on from a star player, you try to get the best deal possible.

I guess I just have a much lower opinion of De'Aaron Fox than others do. He's a smaller guard going into his 10th year next year who relies on athleticism and can't shoot 3s. People are still losing their minds at Marcus Smart being a bad 3pt shooter. Well, they both have shot the same percentage in their careers from distance. I'd take prime Marcus 10 times out of 10 over Fox. Anfernee Simons is a much better value than Fox.

Sure, Keldon Johnson is decent, but he's not enough to make up the difference between the giant rift between Brown and Fox. Fox is a player that you might have to attach assets to in order to trade him away. Brown is finishing top 6 in MVP voting.

If you aren't getting Castle in return, it's a hard no from me. This is the kind of trade that could sink the current Celtics as we know them.

[Larry for 3]

I can't believe people are willing to accept Fox in a trade for Jaylen. Dude was just traded for a couple of mediocre draft picks and filler salary, and then signed to a contract well beyond what he is worth. We are giving up a much better player signed to three more years in his prime.

Can someone explain to me why in the world we would want to make this kind of deal? There is no upside with young talent and not nearly enough current talent coming back. Just some adequate depth pieces.

But it isn?t a Fox for Brown trade. There are other assets invoved. Also, Fox as a 1st option was a 26pt/6ast/5reb player. He also led the league in steals one year. Fox has been an All-NBA player and all-star. He?s also younger than JB. 

Johnson was 6MOTY. Saying he?s just a depth piece is like saying Pritchard is just a depth piece, which wouldn?t be accurate. Johnson averaged 22ppg a few seasons ago. He?s also only 26 years old.

If/When Milwaukee trades Giannis, they aren?t getting equivalent value back. When KG came to Boston, Wolves did not get equal value back. That?s just how it goes. If you have to move on from a star player, you try to get the best deal possible.

I guess I just have a much lower opinion of De'Aaron Fox than others do. He's a smaller guard going into his 10th year next year who relies on athleticism and can't shoot 3s. People are still losing their minds at Marcus Smart being a bad 3pt shooter. Well, they both have shot the same percentage in their careers from distance. I'd take prime Marcus 10 times out of 10 over Fox. Anfernee Simons is a much better value than Fox.

Sure, Keldon Johnson is decent, but he's not enough to make up the difference between the giant rift between Brown and Fox. Fox is a player that you might have to attach assets to in order to trade him away. Brown is finishing top 6 in MVP voting.

If you aren't getting Castle in return, it's a hard no from me. This is the kind of trade that could sink the current Celtics as we know them.

Can?t take you seriously when you say you?d take prime Smart over prime Fox. What a ridiculous statement . Fox has had 4 NBA seasons where he?s average over 25 ppg and 2 others more than 20. 9 out of 10 seasons he?s shot 45 percent or better from the field. This season he shot 48. Is he a great 3 point shooter , no. I wouldn?t trade for him because of the contract. But gimmie a break man.

[jambr380]

I can't believe people are willing to accept Fox in a trade for Jaylen. Dude was just traded for a couple of mediocre draft picks and filler salary, and then signed to a contract well beyond what he is worth. We are giving up a much better player signed to three more years in his prime.

Can someone explain to me why in the world we would want to make this kind of deal? There is no upside with young talent and not nearly enough current talent coming back. Just some adequate depth pieces.

But it isn?t a Fox for Brown trade. There are other assets invoved. Also, Fox as a 1st option was a 26pt/6ast/5reb player. He also led the league in steals one year. Fox has been an All-NBA player and all-star. He?s also younger than JB. 

Johnson was 6MOTY. Saying he?s just a depth piece is like saying Pritchard is just a depth piece, which wouldn?t be accurate. Johnson averaged 22ppg a few seasons ago. He?s also only 26 years old.

If/When Milwaukee trades Giannis, they aren?t getting equivalent value back. When KG came to Boston, Wolves did not get equal value back. That?s just how it goes. If you have to move on from a star player, you try to get the best deal possible.

I guess I just have a much lower opinion of De'Aaron Fox than others do. He's a smaller guard going into his 10th year next year who relies on athleticism and can't shoot 3s. People are still losing their minds at Marcus Smart being a bad 3pt shooter. Well, they both have shot the same percentage in their careers from distance. I'd take prime Marcus 10 times out of 10 over Fox. Anfernee Simons is a much better value than Fox.

Sure, Keldon Johnson is decent, but he's not enough to make up the difference between the giant rift between Brown and Fox. Fox is a player that you might have to attach assets to in order to trade him away. Brown is finishing top 6 in MVP voting.

If you aren't getting Castle in return, it's a hard no from me. This is the kind of trade that could sink the current Celtics as we know them.

Can?t take you seriously when you say you?d take prime Smart over prime Fox. What a ridiculous statement . Fox has had 4 NBA seasons where he?s average over 25 ppg and 2 others more than 20. 9 out of 10 seasons he?s shot 45 percent or better from the field. This season he shot 48. Is he a great 3 point shooter , no. I wouldn?t trade for him because of the contract. But gimmie a break man.

What I actually said was that I would take prime Smart over Fox entering his 10th year and beyond. And I explained why I don't believe the best is yet to come for Fox. Before you go and scold somebody, perhaps you should better read the response.

I understand that this is still controversial, but I just really don't believe in Fox as a max contract player for whatever team he's on. His impending 4 yr/$221M contract is beyond bad. Spurs will be dying to offload that contract in the very near future. I can't believe he was able to basically force himself to the Spurs and everybody obliged. Spurs should have been more patient or they should have given him a smaller contract.

[Who]

I really think Vessel is a guy I would target.  He's a really good shooter and is athletic. He might have potential to be the #3 scorer more so than d white.

I like him but I like him more as a SG than a SF. He is a below average defender & rebounder at SF. It would be more of a problem on a team without Wemby standing behind him.

Devin Vassell would be a good 3rd guard alongside Pritchard and D White. I'd start Vassell and D White and use Pritchard as a 6th man. However, in this deal, Fox is the main guy coming back. So the three guards would be Fox, D White, Pritchard. Not enough minutes in the backcourt for all 3. So you would have to play Vassell at SF. I'd rather not do that therefore I don't like him as an addition to a Fox package.

I do like the idea of Vassell as a guy to pursue in a separate trade whilst keeping Jaylen.

[Who]

In: De?Aaron Fox, Keldon Johnson, Julian Champagnie, 1st round pick

Out: Jaylen Brown

Celtics starting 5: Fox, White, Johnson, Tatum, Timelord (FA signing)

Bench: Pritchard, Hauser, Champagnie, Queta, Schierman, Gonzalez, Garza, Walsh, Harper Jr.

I'd start Champagnie ahead of Keldon Johnson. I like him better as a SF due to his superior shooting ability.

Most of Keldon Johnson's baskets come at the rim or in the paint. In this lineup, we would also have a rim runner at center (Queta or Timelord) and a PG in Fox who is a subpar shooter. So not enough spacing for me. Therefore, play the better shooter. I also think Champagnie is a better defender than Keldon Johnson as well.

[Goldstar88]

In: De?Aaron Fox, Keldon Johnson, Julian Champagnie, 1st round pick

Out: Jaylen Brown

Celtics starting 5: Fox, White, Johnson, Tatum, Timelord (FA signing)

Bench: Pritchard, Hauser, Champagnie, Queta, Schierman, Gonzalez, Garza, Walsh, Harper Jr.

I'd start Champagnie ahead of Keldon Johnson. I like him better as a SF due to his superior shooting ability.

Most of Keldon Johnson's baskets come at the rim or in the paint. In this lineup, we would also have a rim runner at center (Queta or Timelord) and a PG in Fox who is a subpar shooter. So not enough spacing for me. Therefore, play the better shooter. I also think Champagnie is a better defender than Keldon Johnson as well.

Keldon shot 36% from 3pt this year. Looks like Julian was at 38%, so they are comparable.  Both are good defenders. Fox has an elite midrange game and can get to the basket. Feel like the team would be more balanced. Less reliant on 3pt shooting.

[Who]

In: De?Aaron Fox, Keldon Johnson, Julian Champagnie, 1st round pick

Out: Jaylen Brown

Celtics starting 5: Fox, White, Johnson, Tatum, Timelord (FA signing)

Bench: Pritchard, Hauser, Champagnie, Queta, Schierman, Gonzalez, Garza, Walsh, Harper Jr.

I'd start Champagnie ahead of Keldon Johnson. I like him better as a SF due to his superior shooting ability.

Most of Keldon Johnson's baskets come at the rim or in the paint. In this lineup, we would also have a rim runner at center (Queta or Timelord) and a PG in Fox who is a subpar shooter. So not enough spacing for me. Therefore, play the better shooter. I also think Champagnie is a better defender than Keldon Johnson as well.

Keldon shot 36% from 3pt this year. Looks like Julian was at 38%, so they are comparable.  Both are good defenders. Fox has an elite midrange game and can get to the basket. Feel like the team would be more balanced. Less reliant on 3pt shooting.

Champagnie has way more volume on his 3s. He takes 8 threes per 36min whilst Keldon takes 5 threes per 36. So 60% more threes.

Plus Keldon is not a reliable shooter. He shot 36% this season but 32% last year, 34% the year before that, 33% before that. Over the last four years his average is 33.8%. The year before that he shot a career best 39.8% but before that he was 33%. 35.1% for his career.

Keldon's 3pt volume has declined in the playoffs. Only 2 threes per game in 20 minutes (despite shooting 41%). That is one every 10 minutes. That is like what Evan Mobley takes. This is not a shooter people are scared of.

Champagnie was 37% last season, 36.5% the year before, 40% his rookie year. 37.5% for his 4yr career in line with what he shot this season. His three point volume has also been consistently high each year of his career - 6.8 per 36, 8.1, 8.9, 9.7. Average of 8.1 also in line with what he did this season. In the playoffs, his average has dropped to 5.0 in 28mpg (compared to 2.1 in 19.4mpg for Keldon) with Champagnie hitting the highest percentage of his 3s in the playoffs.

Champagnie is a much better shooter than Keldon Johnson.