Can we afford not to trade for Damian Lillard

[Muzzy66]

I don't know if everyone has actually looked at Lillard's contract in full. He makes 46m and 48m this year and next, but it also jumps to 58m and 63m in year 3 and 4. In that respect we can certainly "afford" not to trade for him.

In year 3 Lillard will be making similar money to what to Jaylen Brown would be making at the same point in time (actually probably less) so I'm ok with that.  He would be 35 at that time, the same age as Steph Curry is now, and is a similar player to Steph (skill based, not highly dependant on athleticism) so I see no reason to believe he won't still be capable of playing at a high level. 
 
Year 4 he will be going on 36 and probably will start to decline heavily, but then he also becomes a $63M expiring contract which if anything probably turns him into an asset rather than a liability.

I'm fine with all of this.

[Muzzy66]

If Lillard is truly fine with coming to Boston, then you trade Jaylen for him without much hesitation.

I think Lillard would be fine with it if he gets paid and is on a True contender.

Man, I hate this so much!!! My heart says stay with JB, we drafted him, he is our guy. My head says, holy Crap, I think we could win 2 titles if we trade JB for Lillard!

I am sorry, it is hard to argue, the J's proved the last 2 years that they can't get it done alone. Is Porzingas enough??

I think DL gives us the better chance at a title, I just do.

I feel exactly the same way. 

From an emotional standpoint I would like to see Jaylen remain a Celtic, and would love to see Brown/Tatum be life long Celtics and develop into a a dominant three headed monster with Porzingis.  I'd love to see those two guys win a title just so that they can get that respect and recognition. 

But at the same time Tatum and Brown have been together for a whiie now.  They have led some pretty talented teams and have struggled with consistency and with leadership.  My hope is that they mature and learn to overcome those issues, but I'm really only 50/50 confident that they will do that.  And even if they do there is still uncertainty - you still don't have an established leader, you still don't have a reliable ball handler, you still don't have that one killer clutch scorer who you can consistently depend on as your go-to closer.  There are still plenty of question marks here.   It kinda feels like a collection of really good layers rather than a team with perfect synergy.

You add Lillard in place of Brown and I think that all changes. 

Lillard is the shooter, the go-to guy in the clutch, the primary ball handler/playmaker and the veteran leader.  Tatum is your elite "do a bit of everything" two-way superstar and your go-to ISO scorer when you need to create a bucket.  Porzingis is basically your Chris Bosh (3rd scoring option, floor stretcher, rim protector, inside presence when you need a high percentage shot).  White is your 3+D hustle guy and your primary perimeter defender.  Timelord is your primary rim protector and cleanup guy.  Brogdon is your instant offense off the bench.  Horford is your veteran emotional leader for that second unit. 

This is not just a "stack the roster with best talent available and see what happens" type move, like what has been done in Phoenix, Philly and Brooklyn recently.  This is a team where everybody has a clearly defined role, there's great roster balance, and all of the pieces just seem to fit.  It feels like a championship team, not just a bunch of good pieces.

[Who]

But at the same time Tatum and Brown have been together for a whiie now.  They have led some pretty talented teams and have struggled with consistency and with leadership.  My hope is that they mature and learn to overcome those issues, but I'm really only 50/50 confident that they will do that.  And even if they do there is still uncertainty - you still don't have an established leader, you still don't have a reliable ball handler, you still don't have that one killer clutch scorer who you can consistently depend on as your go-to closer.  There are still plenty of question marks here.   It kinda feels like a collection of really good layers rather than a team with perfect synergy.

You add Lillard in place of Brown and I think that all changes. 

This line sent me off down a strange road ...

I wonder how many title winning teams have had their 2 best players in Tatum and Jaylen who are combined such (relatively) poor ball-handlers & passers. 3 best players if you add Porzingis.

The 1999 Spurs stand out immediately. The twin towers of D-Rob and Duncan were clearly inferior in terms of ball-handling than Tatum & Jaylen. They were also two of the most dominant defensive presences in league history.

* The Bulls had Pippen and Jordan. Both better than Tatum and Jaylen.
* The Heat had LeBron and Wade. Both better than Tatum and Jaylen.
* Shaq and Kobe. Kobe was better than Tatum or Jaylen.
* Shaq and Wade. Wade was better than Tatum or Jaylen.
* The 2nd and 3rd generation Spurs had Ginobili & T Parker who are both better ball-handlers than Tatum & Jaylen.
* The 2004 Pistons had Chauncey Billups.
* The Warriors had Steph & Draymond. Both better ball-handlers than Tatum and Jaylen.
* LeBron's Cavs had LeBron and Kyrie. Both better ball-handlers. LeBron better passer.
* Kawhi's Raptors had Kyle Lowry.
* This Nuggets team had Jokic & J Murray.
* LeBron's Lakers had LeBron.
* The Bad Boy Pistons had Zeke and Joe D.
* Lakers had Magic Johnson. Norn Nixon as well on earlier teams.
* 80s Celtics had Larry Bird. Not much of a ball-handler but one of the greatest passers of All-Time. Tiny and DJ in supporting roles.
* Late 70s Sonics had Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson.
* 1983 76ers had Mo Cheeks. Only A Toney and Doc as secondary ball-handlers and passers. One of the weaker teams in terms of team offense. Lot of one-on-one play on that squad.
* Mid-90s Rockets. Low caliber ball-handlers and passers. Vernon Maxwell their best perimeter creator on their first title win. Clyde Drexler their best on their 2nd win. Clyde probably equal to Tatum. Maxwell inferior to Tatum. They had Kenny Smith and Sam Cassell in supporting roles no better than D White & Brogdon.
* I forgot the 2008 Celtics. They had Pierce. KG and Ray their other Big 3. Pierce comparable or superior to Tatum. Ray superior to Jaylen. Also had Rondo in support. KG far superior to Porzingis in terms of passing and handles.
* Pau and Kobe Lakers. Kobe again superior to Tatum or Jaylen. Pau superior to Jaylen also. Beautiful passer Pau.
* 2011 Mavs had Dirk as best player. Then Jason Terry as their 2nd best offensive player. Their main creator on the perimeter down the stretch. Kidd in support. Hard to pick a Big 2/3. It was Dirk and then 4 guys on a similar level in Tyson, Kidd, Marion and Terry. Should we include them as comparable to Tatum & Jaylen? Worse? Better?
* 2021 Bucks had Giannis (point-forward at PF), Middleton (better than Jaylen) and Jrue at PG.

So the 1994 and 1995 Rockets can be added to the 1999 Spurs teams. So 3 title teams in the last 40 years have had worse ball-handlers and passers in their top 2 (or top 3) players than Tatum & Jaylen. Maybe the 2011 Mavs as well.

Does that sound right to folks?

[libermaniac]

But at the same time Tatum and Brown have been together for a whiie now.  They have led some pretty talented teams and have struggled with consistency and with leadership.  My hope is that they mature and learn to overcome those issues, but I'm really only 50/50 confident that they will do that.  And even if they do there is still uncertainty - you still don't have an established leader, you still don't have a reliable ball handler, you still don't have that one killer clutch scorer who you can consistently depend on as your go-to closer.  There are still plenty of question marks here.   It kinda feels like a collection of really good layers rather than a team with perfect synergy.

You add Lillard in place of Brown and I think that all changes. 

This line sent me off down a strange road ...

I wonder how many title winning teams have had their 2 best players in Tatum and Jaylen who are combined such (relatively) poor ball-handlers & passers. 3 best players if you add Porzingis.

The 1999 Spurs stand out immediately. The twin towers of D-Rob and Duncan were clearly inferior in terms of ball-handling than Tatum & Jaylen. They were also two of the most dominant defensive presences in league history.

* The Bulls had Pippen and Jordan. Both better than Tatum and Jaylen.
* The Heat had LeBron and Wade. Both better than Tatum and Jaylen.
* Shaq and Kobe. Kobe was better than Tatum or Jaylen.
* Shaq and Wade. Wade was better than Tatum or Jaylen.
* The 2nd and 3rd generation Spurs had Ginobili & T Parker who are both better ball-handlers than Tatum & Jaylen.
* The 2004 Pistons had Chauncey Billups.
* The Warriors had Steph & Draymond. Both better ball-handlers than Tatum and Jaylen.
* LeBron's Cavs had LeBron and Kyrie. Both better ball-handlers. LeBron better passer.
* Kawhi's Raptors had Kyle Lowry.
* This Nuggets team had Jokic & J Murray.
* LeBron's Lakers had LeBron.
* The Bad Boy Pistons had Zeke and Joe D.
* Lakers had Magic Johnson. Norn Nixon as well on earlier teams.
* 80s Celtics had Larry Bird. Not much of a ball-handler but one of the greatest passers of All-Time. Tiny and DJ in supporting roles.
* Late 70s Sonics had Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson.
* 1983 76ers had Mo Cheeks. Only A Toney and Doc as secondary ball-handlers and passers. One of the weaker teams in terms of team offense. Lot of one-on-one play on that squad.
* Mid-90s Rockets. Low caliber ball-handlers and passers. Vernon Maxwell their best perimeter creator on their first title win. Clyde Drexler their best on their 2nd win. Clyde probably equal to Tatum. Maxwell inferior to Tatum. They had Kenny Smith and Sam Cassell in supporting roles no better than D White & Brogdon.
* I forgot the 2008 Celtics. They had Pierce. KG and Ray their other Big 3. Pierce comparable or superior to Tatum. Ray superior to Jaylen. Also had Rondo in support. KG far superior to Porzingis in terms of passing and handles.
* Pau and Kobe Lakers. Kobe again superior to Tatum or Jaylen. Pau superior to Jaylen also. Beautiful passer Pau.
* 2011 Mavs had Dirk as best player. Then Jason Terry as their 2nd best offensive player. Their main creator on the perimeter down the stretch. Kidd in support. Hard to pick a Big 2/3. It was Dirk and then 4 guys on a similar level in Tyson, Kidd, Marion and Terry. Should we include them as comparable to Tatum & Jaylen? Worse? Better?
* 2021 Bucks had Giannis (point-forward at PF), Middleton (better than Jaylen) and Jrue at PG.

So the 1994 and 1995 Rockets can be added to the 1999 Spurs teams. So 3 title teams in the last 40 years have had worse ball-handlers and passers in their top 2 (or top 3) players than Tatum & Jaylen. Maybe the 2011 Mavs as well.

Does that sound right to folks?

I don’t consider Tatum a poor ball handler or a poor passer. Are we watching the same guy?

[Who]

But at the same time Tatum and Brown have been together for a whiie now.  They have led some pretty talented teams and have struggled with consistency and with leadership.  My hope is that they mature and learn to overcome those issues, but I'm really only 50/50 confident that they will do that.  And even if they do there is still uncertainty - you still don't have an established leader, you still don't have a reliable ball handler, you still don't have that one killer clutch scorer who you can consistently depend on as your go-to closer.  There are still plenty of question marks here.   It kinda feels like a collection of really good layers rather than a team with perfect synergy.

You add Lillard in place of Brown and I think that all changes. 

This line sent me off down a strange road ...

I wonder how many title winning teams have had their 2 best players in Tatum and Jaylen who are combined such (relatively) poor ball-handlers & passers. 3 best players if you add Porzingis.

The 1999 Spurs stand out immediately. The twin towers of D-Rob and Duncan were clearly inferior in terms of ball-handling than Tatum & Jaylen. They were also two of the most dominant defensive presences in league history.

* The Bulls had Pippen and Jordan. Both better than Tatum and Jaylen.
* The Heat had LeBron and Wade. Both better than Tatum and Jaylen.
* Shaq and Kobe. Kobe was better than Tatum or Jaylen.
* Shaq and Wade. Wade was better than Tatum or Jaylen.
* The 2nd and 3rd generation Spurs had Ginobili & T Parker who are both better ball-handlers than Tatum & Jaylen.
* The 2004 Pistons had Chauncey Billups.
* The Warriors had Steph & Draymond. Both better ball-handlers than Tatum and Jaylen.
* LeBron's Cavs had LeBron and Kyrie. Both better ball-handlers. LeBron better passer.
* Kawhi's Raptors had Kyle Lowry.
* This Nuggets team had Jokic & J Murray.
* LeBron's Lakers had LeBron.
* The Bad Boy Pistons had Zeke and Joe D.
* Lakers had Magic Johnson. Norn Nixon as well on earlier teams.
* 80s Celtics had Larry Bird. Not much of a ball-handler but one of the greatest passers of All-Time. Tiny and DJ in supporting roles.
* Late 70s Sonics had Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson.
* 1983 76ers had Mo Cheeks. Only A Toney and Doc as secondary ball-handlers and passers. One of the weaker teams in terms of team offense. Lot of one-on-one play on that squad.
* Mid-90s Rockets. Low caliber ball-handlers and passers. Vernon Maxwell their best perimeter creator on their first title win. Clyde Drexler their best on their 2nd win. Clyde probably equal to Tatum. Maxwell inferior to Tatum. They had Kenny Smith and Sam Cassell in supporting roles no better than D White & Brogdon.
* I forgot the 2008 Celtics. They had Pierce. KG and Ray their other Big 3. Pierce comparable or superior to Tatum. Ray superior to Jaylen. Also had Rondo in support. KG far superior to Porzingis in terms of passing and handles.
* Pau and Kobe Lakers. Kobe again superior to Tatum or Jaylen. Pau superior to Jaylen also. Beautiful passer Pau.
* 2011 Mavs had Dirk as best player. Then Jason Terry as their 2nd best offensive player. Their main creator on the perimeter down the stretch. Kidd in support. Hard to pick a Big 2/3. It was Dirk and then 4 guys on a similar level in Tyson, Kidd, Marion and Terry. Should we include them as comparable to Tatum & Jaylen? Worse? Better?
* 2021 Bucks had Giannis (point-forward at PF), Middleton (better than Jaylen) and Jrue at PG.

So the 1994 and 1995 Rockets can be added to the 1999 Spurs teams. So 3 title teams in the last 40 years have had worse ball-handlers and passers in their top 2 (or top 3) players than Tatum & Jaylen. Maybe the 2011 Mavs as well.

Does that sound right to folks?

I don’t consider Tatum a poor ball handler or a poor passer. Are we watching the same guy?

In terms of an average SF = Tatum is an above average ball-handler and passer.

In terms of being the best ball-handler, passer / playmaker on a title contender = Tatum is below average.

The list of title winners in the last 40 years and comparions to the main ball-handlers / playmaker / perimeter creators on those teams speaks to that.

[Muzzy66]

But at the same time Tatum and Brown have been together for a whiie now.  They have led some pretty talented teams and have struggled with consistency and with leadership.  My hope is that they mature and learn to overcome those issues, but I'm really only 50/50 confident that they will do that.  And even if they do there is still uncertainty - you still don't have an established leader, you still don't have a reliable ball handler, you still don't have that one killer clutch scorer who you can consistently depend on as your go-to closer.  There are still plenty of question marks here.   It kinda feels like a collection of really good layers rather than a team with perfect synergy.

You add Lillard in place of Brown and I think that all changes. 

This line sent me off down a strange road ...

I wonder how many title winning teams have had their 2 best players in Tatum and Jaylen who are combined such (relatively) poor ball-handlers & passers. 3 best players if you add Porzingis.

The 1999 Spurs stand out immediately. The twin towers of D-Rob and Duncan were clearly inferior in terms of ball-handling than Tatum & Jaylen. They were also two of the most dominant defensive presences in league history.

* The Bulls had Pippen and Jordan. Both better than Tatum and Jaylen.
* The Heat had LeBron and Wade. Both better than Tatum and Jaylen.
* Shaq and Kobe. Kobe was better than Tatum or Jaylen.
* Shaq and Wade. Wade was better than Tatum or Jaylen.
* The 2nd and 3rd generation Spurs had Ginobili & T Parker who are both better ball-handlers than Tatum & Jaylen.
* The 2004 Pistons had Chauncey Billups.
* The Warriors had Steph & Draymond. Both better ball-handlers than Tatum and Jaylen.
* LeBron's Cavs had LeBron and Kyrie. Both better ball-handlers. LeBron better passer.
* Kawhi's Raptors had Kyle Lowry.
* This Nuggets team had Jokic & J Murray.
* LeBron's Lakers had LeBron.
* The Bad Boy Pistons had Zeke and Joe D.
* Lakers had Magic Johnson. Norn Nixon as well on earlier teams.
* 80s Celtics had Larry Bird. Not much of a ball-handler but one of the greatest passers of All-Time. Tiny and DJ in supporting roles.
* Late 70s Sonics had Gus Williams and Dennis Johnson.
* 1983 76ers had Mo Cheeks. Only A Toney and Doc as secondary ball-handlers and passers. One of the weaker teams in terms of team offense. Lot of one-on-one play on that squad.
* Mid-90s Rockets. Low caliber ball-handlers and passers. Vernon Maxwell their best perimeter creator on their first title win. Clyde Drexler their best on their 2nd win. Clyde probably equal to Tatum. Maxwell inferior to Tatum. They had Kenny Smith and Sam Cassell in supporting roles no better than D White & Brogdon.
* I forgot the 2008 Celtics. They had Pierce. KG and Ray their other Big 3. Pierce comparable or superior to Tatum. Ray superior to Jaylen. Also had Rondo in support. KG far superior to Porzingis in terms of passing and handles.
* Pau and Kobe Lakers. Kobe again superior to Tatum or Jaylen. Pau superior to Jaylen also. Beautiful passer Pau.
* 2011 Mavs had Dirk as best player. Then Jason Terry as their 2nd best offensive player. Their main creator on the perimeter down the stretch. Kidd in support. Hard to pick a Big 2/3. It was Dirk and then 4 guys on a similar level in Tyson, Kidd, Marion and Terry. Should we include them as comparable to Tatum & Jaylen? Worse? Better?
* 2021 Bucks had Giannis (point-forward at PF), Middleton (better than Jaylen) and Jrue at PG.

So the 1994 and 1995 Rockets can be added to the 1999 Spurs teams. So 3 title teams in the last 40 years have had worse ball-handlers and passers in their top 2 (or top 3) players than Tatum & Jaylen. Maybe the 2011 Mavs as well.

Does that sound right to folks?

I don’t consider Tatum a poor ball handler or a poor passer. Are we watching the same guy?

I wouldn't consider him a poor ball handler or passer either.  I think he's actually a very skilled ball handler and passer for a wing - probably one of the better in the league in both regards, and improving at both each year. 

But the ball handling requirements for a wing are different to the ball handling requirements for a point guard though, and I think most wings are going to be a little out of their comfort zone if you ask them to spend large amounts of time as your primary ball handler and quasi-point guard.

Tatum does perfectly fine most the time, but he's up against better teams with more aggressive defensive schemes (which you will tend to be facing on deep playoff runs) he does seem to get a bit panicked, leading to lose handles, pickpockets, bad passes, etc.  Jaylen Brown is even worse in this regard, and Marcus Smart also had his share of issues with this - and with those three guys being the main ball handlers that has always been a problem. 

Smart being gone helps a little in that regard, but I still don't know if it's a great thing that come playoff time we would probably need to rely on our 4th/5th best player on the court (be that Brogdon or White) to be our primary ball handler and playmaker.  I feel much better about the idea of Damian Lillard being your primary ball handler/playmaker, with Tatum/Porzingis/White/Brogdon/Horford all then being capable secondary playmakers.   

[cman88]

I don't know if everyone has actually looked at Lillard's contract in full. He makes 46m and 48m this year and next, but it also jumps to 58m and 63m in year 3 and 4. In that respect we can certainly "afford" not to trade for him.

In year 3 Lillard will be making similar money to what to Jaylen Brown would be making at the same point in time (actually probably less) so I'm ok with that.  He would be 35 at that time, the same age as Steph Curry is now, and is a similar player to Steph (skill based, not highly dependant on athleticism) so I see no reason to believe he won't still be capable of playing at a high level. 
 
Year 4 he will be going on 36 and probably will start to decline heavily, but then he also becomes a $63M expiring contract which if anything probably turns him into an asset rather than a liability.

I'm fine with all of this.

Difference is Jaylen Brown is JUST about to ENTER his prime and Lillard is JUST about to EXIT his. theres no way in knowing when he will hit the wall and fall off a cliff. It came VERY quick with Kemba.

I fail to see how a 36 year old making 63million who is in heavy decline would be an asset..

its a moot point anyway. he's going to Miami.