Hard Cap/Apron Lonzo RFA/S & T ?

[$Mike$]

The Kemba trade freed up a ton of cap flexibility for us.

Including Jabari Parker, we have roughly $127 million in salary committed.  The apron will be right around $143 million.

Thompson and smart make around $23.5 million combined. Subtract them, and we have roughly $39 million in flexibility to resign Fournier and bring somebody back in a sign and trade.

I agree with this but if we are at $127M and take out Smart and Thompson (-$23M), add in Lonzo Ball (+$20M) and Fournier (+20M?), we would be at $144M which is right at the Apron level.  The main point is that, yes, in theory, we can S&T for Ball (send out Smart and Thompson) and sign Fournier but if we did, that would really be just about it.  We would be right at the hard cap and not able to do anything with any TPEs.

We could also just keep Smart, trade Thompson, sign Fournier, not be hard capped and then use the TPE to bring in some other pieces.  We would only be at about $137M in this scenario (after signing Fournier and depending on what we take back in trading Thompson) so potentially could bring in other pieces and still stay under the tax (but we would not have to).  This seems to result in a stronger overall team.

Option 1:  Out: Smart, Thompson (for Ball), In: Ball, Fournier (no MLE, TPE trades, etc)
Option 2:  Out :Smart, Thompson (for Ball) In: Ball, don't sign Fournier and bring in other players with TPEs, MLE.
Option 3:  Out: Thompson, In: Fournier, keep Smart, plus other pieces with TPE, MLE, what we get for Thompson, etc

Honestly, with the projected lineup that I suggested above and below, I think you have a well-balanced team with player skillsets that complement one another. I don't think you would need to bring in additional pieces other than what I suggested and have a need to have additional money available. Who is even available that can strengthen the Team more than my proposed roster? If RW plays well with this roster, this could be a very good and young team. Also, when Horford comes off the books, this young team can make additional moves to improve areas of need such as the Center position if RW takes a step back or is injured. The Celtics can't wait too long to build as JT and JB may move on. I have heard proposals of moving Brown for Beal to make JT happy, but I believe Lonzo is a better fit for the team and I would rather have Tatum, Brown, Lonzo over Tatum, Beal, and ?PG?. I get signing Beal might keep JT happily in Boston, but winning with Lonzo this upcoming year and maybe signing one of his other low, low, contract Duke friends may be enough.


1. Ball/Pritchard
2. Fournier/Langford
3. Brown/Nesmith
4. Tatum/G.Will or J.Parker
5. R. Williams/A. Horford/M.Brown (When Horford's contract expires, address the 5 spot)

[Roy H.]

I think the most likely path forward is to re-sign Fournier, let Kornet and Semi walk, trade Thompson, and try to use the remaining TPE or the MLE on the best player possible. 

I don't see any major sign-and-trades, but at least it's a theoretical possibility now.

[bogg]

Thanks to the OP for creating this thread. I'm confused on what's so terrible about becoming hard-capped. If the Celtics don't plan on going into the luxury tax this year anyway, then what's the big deal if they become hard capped at a number that is just below?

I expect they do plan on being a tax team this year, and the fit that Boston fans would have if a star forcing their way out couldn't be reasonably traded for because the C's were prohibited from increasing their payroll would be legendary.

At any rate, Smart plus a veteran that you flip Thompson and stuff for (Terrence Ross?) plus a tax mid-level signing plus maybe someone taken into a TPE is going to do more to help you win than Lonzo at $20 million/year will, and I don't actually dislike Lonzo.

[johnnygreen]

Lonzo is a RFA. He would have to agree to the sign and trade for it to work. 

Has he ever indicated any interest in playing for Boston? Just the opposite; he refused to work out for the Celtics when they had the 1st pick in 2017. 

I think this Lonzo stuff is pure fiction, will never happen.

I thought he didn't work out for Boston because he wanted to play for the Lakers, who had the 2nd pick.

[gouki88]

The Kemba trade freed up a ton of cap flexibility for us.

Including Jabari Parker, we have roughly $127 million in salary committed.  The apron will be right around $143 million.

Thompson and smart make around $23.5 million combined. Subtract them, and we have roughly $39 million in flexibility to resign Fournier and bring somebody back in a sign and trade.

I agree with this but if we are at $127M and take out Smart and Thompson (-$23M), add in Lonzo Ball (+$20M) and Fournier (+20M?), we would be at $144M which is right at the Apron level.  The main point is that, yes, in theory, we can S&T for Ball (send out Smart and Thompson) and sign Fournier but if we did, that would really be just about it.  We would be right at the hard cap and not able to do anything with any TPEs.

We could also just keep Smart, trade Thompson, sign Fournier, not be hard capped and then use the TPE to bring in some other pieces.  We would only be at about $137M in this scenario (after signing Fournier and depending on what we take back in trading Thompson) so potentially could bring in other pieces and still stay under the tax (but we would not have to).  This seems to result in a stronger overall team.

Option 1:  Out: Smart, Thompson (for Ball), In: Ball, Fournier (no MLE, TPE trades, etc)
Option 2:  Out :Smart, Thompson (for Ball) In: Ball, don't sign Fournier and bring in other players with TPEs, MLE.
Option 3:  Out: Thompson, In: Fournier, keep Smart, plus other pieces with TPE, MLE, what we get for Thompson, etc

Fournier at $20m seems very generous. I would think AAVs of $16m for Fournier and $18m for Lonzo would be more reasonable.

[gouki88]

Lonzo is a RFA. He would have to agree to the sign and trade for it to work. 

Has he ever indicated any interest in playing for Boston? Just the opposite; he refused to work out for the Celtics when they had the 1st pick in 2017. 

I think this Lonzo stuff is pure fiction, will never happen.

I thought he didn't work out for Boston because he wanted to play for the Lakers, who had the 2nd pick.

Who knows what was Lonzo and what was LaVar

[$Mike$]

Thanks for the replies....I see some feel the Celtics would be better served using the TPE's to build around JB/JT rather than trying to move Smart and Thompson to acquire Ball and sign Fournier. Others shared concerns with very little payroll remaining to further build the team if the Celtics landed Ball and Fournier. With the 13 players below, there would only be a need to fill 2 more roster slots who would likely be the end of the bench players and likely not command high salaries. Bring in a veteran and Harry Giles for a million and make JT's day lol! I feel the biggest needs for the team are a PG, SG, and then a C, due to R.William's injury history, and then the bench. With the roster below, the bench is better than last year's and would require less attention.  I don't care how the Celtics improve the team if they are able to stay under the hard cap. If the roster below can be done/can only be done without using the TPE's, so be it, as I don't believe there is a better PG than Ball or a better SG than Fournier who can be acquired using the TPE, fit the team's style of play, long term age windows, and not cost you more than Smart and Thompson. Also, $18-20 million for a starting PG and $16-19 for a starting SG isn't that bad. The Celtics would have a solid, young core to build around for the future, and money to spend when Horford's contract is up.


1. Ball/Pritchard
2. Fournier/Langford/Edwards
3. Brown/Nesmith
4. Tatum/G.Will or J.Parker
5. R. Williams/A. Horford/M.Brown

[$Mike$]

Interesting article on an off-season approach similar to what I suggested.




https://hardwoodhoudini.com/2021/06/17/boston-celtics-dream-offseason/2/

[slamtheking]

Interesting article on an off-season approach similar to what I suggested.




https://hardwoodhoudini.com/2021/06/17/boston-celtics-dream-offseason/2/

a very Pollyanna view of what could happen.  of course too late on their #16 pick to come to fruition.

What's missing in their first priority of a S&T for Ball using Smart is that the money they're proposing for Ball's contract wouldn't meet the salary matching requirements if just using Smart in the deal.  Would need to add TT to the deal and NO may have to kick in a small salary player to make that work depending on Ball's deal.  He's definitely not worth what Smart and TT make combined and I'd hate to be paying for that deal for 3-4 years.

[Vermont Green]

Interesting article on an off-season approach similar to what I suggested.




https://hardwoodhoudini.com/2021/06/17/boston-celtics-dream-offseason/2/

a very Pollyanna view of what could happen.  of course too late on their #16 pick to come to fruition.

What's missing in their first priority of a S&T for Ball using Smart is that the money they're proposing for Ball's contract wouldn't meet the salary matching requirements if just using Smart in the deal.  Would need to add TT to the deal and NO may have to kick in a small salary player to make that work depending on Ball's deal.  He's definitely not worth what Smart and TT make combined and I'd hate to be paying for that deal for 3-4 years.

Salaries have to match within 125%.  So Smart X 1.25 is about $17M as the Max they could send out which might do it.  Smart + Thompson / 1.25 is about $18M as the min that could come back.  I think the money could possibly work for Smart only and definitely would work if Smart + Thompson (assuming you want to pay Ball $18M or more).

[Vermont Green]

The Kemba trade freed up a ton of cap flexibility for us.

Including Jabari Parker, we have roughly $127 million in salary committed.  The apron will be right around $143 million.

Thompson and smart make around $23.5 million combined. Subtract them, and we have roughly $39 million in flexibility to resign Fournier and bring somebody back in a sign and trade.

I agree with this but if we are at $127M and take out Smart and Thompson (-$23M), add in Lonzo Ball (+$20M) and Fournier (+20M?), we would be at $144M which is right at the Apron level.  The main point is that, yes, in theory, we can S&T for Ball (send out Smart and Thompson) and sign Fournier but if we did, that would really be just about it.  We would be right at the hard cap and not able to do anything with any TPEs.

We could also just keep Smart, trade Thompson, sign Fournier, not be hard capped and then use the TPE to bring in some other pieces.  We would only be at about $137M in this scenario (after signing Fournier and depending on what we take back in trading Thompson) so potentially could bring in other pieces and still stay under the tax (but we would not have to).  This seems to result in a stronger overall team.

Option 1:  Out: Smart, Thompson (for Ball), In: Ball, Fournier (no MLE, TPE trades, etc)
Option 2:  Out :Smart, Thompson (for Ball) In: Ball, don't sign Fournier and bring in other players with TPEs, MLE.
Option 3:  Out: Thompson, In: Fournier, keep Smart, plus other pieces with TPE, MLE, what we get for Thompson, etc

Fournier at $20m seems very generous. I would think AAVs of $16m for Fournier and $18m for Lonzo would be more reasonable.

Hayward got $30M so I don't know what these guys will get.  What I do know is that it is always more than I think, not less.  If we can resign Fournier for $16M, great, that is an easy one, but I just feel it will likely be more.  Ball at $18M or $20M, that is more than I want to pay for him in any case (when you consider that at a minimum it means giving up Smart and likely more, plus be hard capped).

[bogg]

Interesting article on an off-season approach similar to what I suggested.




https://hardwoodhoudini.com/2021/06/17/boston-celtics-dream-offseason/2/

Ugh. Send out a 2023 first for Lonzo and you can't trade another pick until 2025. I don't understand why people are enthusiastic on shutting the door on a Beal or Embiid or LaVine or any other potential star or pseudostar trade so that they can turn Smart into Lonzo.

[Big333223]

I have no idea about the cap side of it but I'll say I think Ball would fit like a glove alongside the J's and Fournier.

I also have a feeling Brad is going to prioritize size in a way Ainge never did.

On the other hand, Smart is my favorite player in the NBA. So...