Celtics - Rockets trade (who says no?)

[tenn_smoothie]

I would stop watching the Celtics if they had harden on their roster.

I understand your trepidation but remember that Harden use to play mainly off ball with the Thunder and it was Morey’s decision to play the way Houston did not Harden, he could easily be persuaded to play within a team concept for the sake of a championship.

Oh Really ?  Once he became God's gift to the 3-pointer, bringing in Paul and then Westbrook saw no change in his game.

[liam]

I'm not a Harden fan and I don't really see why Houston trades him without Brown in return, but if C's have Tatum, Brown, Walker and Harden -- sounds pretty interesting.  But Harden's teams often sound interesting.

I’m not a fan of how Houston has used harden but if you can put Harden, Tatum, Brown, and Kemba on the floor that’s a championship callable team. I don’t see it happening but it would be a crazy high powered offense.

[tenn_smoothie]

The latest on the tweets is Ainge is pushing hard for Harden.  Offering Walker, Hayward , draft picks and just about anybody except Brown and Tatum. Maybe that's why the Hayward option decision has been delayed.

Did Ainge learn nothing from the Kyrie Irving debacle ? Surely this is some crazy rumor.

[Sophomore]

I would stop watching the Celtics if they had harden on their roster.

I understand your trepidation but remember that Harden use to play mainly off ball with the Thunder and it was Morey’s decision to play the way Houston did not Harden, he could easily be persuaded to play within a team concept for the sake of a championship.

Oh Really ?  Once he became God's gift to the 3-pointer, bringing in Paul and then Westbrook saw no change in his game.

Yeah, if there’s one thing we’ve seen time and again with this team, it’s that players fall back on the three pointer and iso ball wayyy too much. Not seeing what would steer harden in a different direction. Don’t imagine Tatum would enjoy watching Harden pound the rock and use possession after possession. 

[Somebody]

I would stop watching the Celtics if they had harden on their roster.

I understand your trepidation but remember that Harden use to play mainly off ball with the Thunder and it was Morey’s decision to play the way Houston did not Harden, he could easily be persuaded to play within a team concept for the sake of a championship.

Oh Really ?  Once he became God's gift to the 3-pointer, bringing in Paul and then Westbrook saw no change in his game.

Yeah, if there’s one thing we’ve seen time and again with this team, it’s that players fall back on the three pointer and iso ball wayyy too much. Not seeing what would steer harden in a different direction. Don’t imagine Tatum would enjoy watching Harden pound the rock and use possession after possession.

I don't enjoy watching Tatum pound the ball and waste possession after possession either

[gouki88]

I would stop watching the Celtics if they had harden on their roster.

I understand your trepidation but remember that Harden use to play mainly off ball with the Thunder and it was Morey’s decision to play the way Houston did not Harden, he could easily be persuaded to play within a team concept for the sake of a championship.

Oh Really ?  Once he became God's gift to the 3-pointer, bringing in Paul and then Westbrook saw no change in his game.

While true to an extent, he was still one healthy Chris Paul hamstring away from being a champion.

He’s also the most consistent 30+ scorer we’ve seen since Michael Jordan, and his defence has improved hugely.
People still think he’s some clueless guy on D, but his post D is excellent due to his strength and he picks passes really well.

He’d also fix the most glaring issue of our offence - an inability to draw fouls and impose our will inside. He draws fouls like Shaq used to

[CelticSooner]

I hate Harden ball as much as anybody. The guy is a legit superstar though and trades for them don't come around very often. You need a superstar to win a title, and he would compliment Tatum very well.

You can't keep kicking the can down the road waiting for something to materialize when everyone else continues to load up around you. You have to make a decision and go all in eventually. I'd do it simply because I don't want to see Tatum finally reach his true potential then ultimately leave because everyone else has better overall talent on their teams. Are the C's about gold balls or just making deep playoff runs? It's not about being patient anymore, the clock started this year on whether Banner 18 is attainable or not.

[Irish Stew]

Doing some legal variation of this trade without including either Smart or Brown seems overly optimistic. It's probably going to have to be Brown.

Is stripping down the core of the Celtics to Harden, Tatum, and Brown worth it? I would say yes.

Is stripping down the core to Harden, Tatum, and Smart worth it? I have my doubts.

[Somebody]

Doing some legal variation of this trade without including either Smart or Brown seems overly optimistic. It's probably going to have to be Brown.

Is stripping down the core of the Celtics to Harden, Tatum, and Brown worth it? I would say yes.

Is stripping down the core to Harden, Tatum, and Smart worth it? I have my doubts.

Won't Kemba and every single one of our picks do it? The Rockets are looking for a star and massive draft capital in return, that package offers exactly that even though Kemba is a bit old.

A team of:
PG: Harden, FA vet min/Wannamaker, Waters
SG: Smart, Langford, draft pick/Javonte
SF: Brown, FA vet min, Semi
PF: Tatum, Grant, draft pick
C: Theis, Kanter/FA MLE, Robert

Would be a contender imo.

[Vermont Green]

I think it is very unlikely but I guess something that starts with Hayward and Kemba going out (plus #14, and other future picks) and Harden and some additional salary coming back is in theory a workable basis for a trade.  Hayward and Kemba paired with Westbrook isn't a bad start to a team.  I am not sure that is the route I would go but it is reasonable that this is being thought about by the Celtics (and Houston).

[Who]

I would stop watching the Celtics if they had harden on their roster.

I understand your trepidation but remember that Harden use to play mainly off ball with the Thunder and it was Morey’s decision to play the way Houston did not Harden, he could easily be persuaded to play within a team concept for the sake of a championship.

Oh Really ?  Once he became God's gift to the 3-pointer, bringing in Paul and then Westbrook saw no change in his game.

It's that lack of freakish athleticism that does Harden in.

He is a sneaky good athlete who needs more time to manipulate his defender with the ball in order to gain an advantage to get to the basket. That forces him to hold the ball / overdribble for too long on multiple possessions.

That lack of freakish athleticism also makes him over-reliant on that step back 3 of his. If the defense can cut off the drive, Harden is limited in his alternatives - which leads to lower percentage shot attempts which can be the wrong shot in big moments in big games.

Harden could work around this fine if he would ever accept his role as a 20-25ppg scorer with 5-7apg rather than trying to force himself into being a 30+ppg with 8-10apg. It is the trying to do to much that kills Harden. That exposes his limitations. If he was more selective in his attacks, his lack of freaky athleticism would not be as much of an issue.


While Harden clearly has the talent to do this an be successful, does he have the mentality? Is winning more important to him than individual success? Or is beating Wilt's and MJ's scoring records more important? Is winning MVPs more important?

I thought D'Antoni and the Rockets brought out Harden's worst mental qualities. Those bad qualities are entrenched and not going away easily/quickly. My hope would be just to try and reduce it a bit. See if you could make him a 25-30ppg and 7-8apg guy rather than a 30-35ppg 8-10apg guy. Still have problems but less. I don't think Harden is ever going to be able to go all the way back to his right role and be a team first guy. Just hopefully less selfish than the current version of Harden we are all seeing.

[Somebody]

I would stop watching the Celtics if they had harden on their roster.

I understand your trepidation but remember that Harden use to play mainly off ball with the Thunder and it was Morey’s decision to play the way Houston did not Harden, he could easily be persuaded to play within a team concept for the sake of a championship.

Oh Really ?  Once he became God's gift to the 3-pointer, bringing in Paul and then Westbrook saw no change in his game.

It's that lack of freakish athleticism that does Harden in.

He is a sneaky good athlete who needs more time to manipulate his defender with the ball in order to gain an advantage to get to the basket. That forces him to hold the ball / overdribble for too long on multiple possessions.

That lack of freakish athleticism also makes him over-reliant on that step back 3 of his. If the defense can cut off the drive, Harden is limited in his alternatives - which leads to lower percentage shot attempts which can be the wrong shot in big moments in big games.

Harden could work around this fine if he would ever accept his role as a 20-25ppg scorer with 5-7apg rather than trying to force himself into being a 30+ppg with 8-10apg. It is the trying to do to much that kills Harden. That exposes his limitations. If he was more selective in his attacks, his lack of freaky athleticism would not be as much of an issue.


While Harden clearly has the talent to do this an be successful, does he have the mentality? Is winning more important to him than individual success? Or is beating Wilt's and MJ's scoring records more important? Is winning MVPs more important?

I thought D'Antoni and the Rockets brought out Harden's worst mental qualities. Those bad qualities are entrenched and not going away easily/quickly. My hope would be just to try and reduce it a bit. See if you could make him a 25-30ppg and 7-8apg guy rather than a 30-35ppg 8-10apg guy. Still have problems but less. I don't think Harden is ever going to be able to go all the way back to his right role and be a team first guy. Just hopefully less selfish than the current version of Harden we are all seeing.

Hm I don't think he absolutely needs to lower his offensive load - he's led some fantastic offences in this heliocentric role even with his lack of reliable counters and freakish athleticism/size. Is he as good as the offensive GOATs or even some of the ATGs like West/Oscar/KD/Kobe on that end? No, but he's right below them and a top 15ish offensive player of all time can lead title-winning offences without changing his approach too much - the 2018 Rockets were a Chris Paul hamstring away from beating one of the most dominant dynasties in NBA history, you just need the right pieces around him to assemble a squad that can win it all.

FWIW I don't like his iso-heavy approach the past year or two - something like his 2017 and 2018 iterations where he carried a massive offensive load via a combination of PnRs and isos would be close to ideal imo.

[Birdman]

Bad trade for Celtics,, no way cause too much to give up

[Darth_Yoda]

Been thinking about a deal.

Kemba to NYK

Randle, Hayward, Edwards, #8, #14, 2021 Boston 1st, 2022 pick swap, 2023 boston first to Houston

Harden, Frank, and Tucker to Boston

Smart/Frank
Harden/Romeo
Brown/Tucker
Tatum/GrantW
Theis/Timelord

[gouki88]

Been thinking about a deal.

Kemba to NYK

Randle, Hayward, Edwards, #8, #14, 2021 Boston 1st, 2022 pick swap, 2023 boston first to Houston

Harden, Frank, and Tucker to Boston

Smart/Frank
Harden/Romeo
Brown/Tucker
Tatum/GrantW
Theis/Timelord

That bench is abominable