Author Topic: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)  (Read 236115 times)

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Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1875 on: May 20, 2019, 12:50:31 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I will say, I think it was pretty clear what the ultimate significance of Jon's heritage was -- it was a major factor in Dany becoming unhinged and desperate, deciding that she needed to solidify her rule with "fear" instead of "love," because she knew that the people would side with Jon if given the chance.

That in turn served as a major motivator for Jon to do what he did.  Both Tyrion and Arya urged him to do what was necessary because neither he nor his family would ever be safe so long as Dany perceived them as threats to her rule. 
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1876 on: May 20, 2019, 01:24:35 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1877 on: May 20, 2019, 02:21:41 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I will say, I think it was pretty clear what the ultimate significance of Jon's heritage was -- it was a major factor in Dany becoming unhinged and desperate, deciding that she needed to solidify her rule with "fear" instead of "love," because she knew that the people would side with Jon if given the chance.

That in turn served as a major motivator for Jon to do what he did.  Both Tyrion and Arya urged him to do what was necessary because neither he nor his family would ever be safe so long as Dany perceived them as threats to her rule.

THe thing is ... if Jon ever takes a wilding wife (assuming returning from the dead doesn’t make you celibate), the realm is doomed in 100 years when Bran dies of old age and one of Jon’s heirs ventures East to go tame some dragons (assuming Drogon is gonna lay some eggs) and claim his birthright.  Welcome to Game of Thrones 2.

Honestly, Jon’s Targaryen-blood son/grandson going off to find Drogon (I think dragons live for centuries) would make a fun film. 

I also expect in the next 5-10 years for them to make an Arya spinoff movie.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1878 on: May 20, 2019, 02:44:02 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I will say, I think it was pretty clear what the ultimate significance of Jon's heritage was -- it was a major factor in Dany becoming unhinged and desperate, deciding that she needed to solidify her rule with "fear" instead of "love," because she knew that the people would side with Jon if given the chance.

That in turn served as a major motivator for Jon to do what he did.  Both Tyrion and Arya urged him to do what was necessary because neither he nor his family would ever be safe so long as Dany perceived them as threats to her rule.

THe thing is ... if Jon ever takes a wilding wife (assuming returning from the dead doesn’t make you celibate), the realm is doomed in 100 years when Bran dies of old age and one of Jon’s heirs ventures East to go tame some dragons (assuming Drogon is gonna lay some eggs) and claim his birthright.  Welcome to Game of Thrones 2.

Honestly, Jon’s Targaryen-blood son/grandson going off to find Drogon (I think dragons live for centuries) would make a fun film. 

I also expect in the next 5-10 years for them to make an Arya spinoff movie.


What's sort of strange to me about how they end Arya's story is that in "Fire and Blood" there's a female character who does basically the same thing, and it's suggested quite strongly that she succeeded in reaching whatever lands there are to the west of Westeros. 

So in that sense it's sort of like Arya ends up just doing the same thing that some other person did a few hundred years before?  A little underwhelming.


Quote
In 55 AC, the construction of the Sun Chaser was completed and Lady Alys began her journey.[1] She stopped at Pentos to take on supplies, and next traveled to Tyrosh, where Lady Alys hired crossbowmen and sellswords as a defense for her travels through the pirate-infested Stepstones. Alys made it through the Stepstones unharmed, dismissed the men she had hired on Lys, and set sail for Oldtown.[2] There, she arrived during the last days of autumn.[2]

Alys desired to sail beyond "the sunset", to find lands between the far eastern shores of Essos and Ulthos that no one had found before. However, men willing to sail on such a mission were not easily found. With her gold, however, Alys was able to tempt men by paying higher wages than other captains did.[2]

When word about Lady Alys reached the Hightower, Lord Donnel Hightower's grandsons, Eustace and Norman, were sent to question her and arrest her if need be. However, instead of carrying out their orders, the two men joined Alys's cause, pledging her their own ships, Lady Meredith and Autumn Moon. Afterwards, many sailors wished to join the crew of Lady Alys.[2]

Lady Alys departed Oldtown on the Sun Chaser on the twenty-third day of the third moon of 56 AC. Although Lord Donnel Hightower, on the orders of King Jaehaerys I Targaryen, sent men after Lady Alys to capture her, the ships were unable to keep up with her and gave up one by one.[2]

The Sun Chaser made her way down Whispering Sound. Alys was intend on sailing a southerly course, seeking warm blue waters and steady winds to bring her across the Sunset Sea.[2] Once beyond the Arbor, Alys steered the Sun Chaser south by southwest. After twelve days without incident, the Sun Chaser and her companions were as far south as the Summer Islands, and farther west than any ship had been before, according to the calculations the men on the ship.[3]

However, they had not seen a bird for four days, and soon after the winds disappeared. There was no breeze for almost a fortnight, and when the wind did finally return, the sky turned red as blood. Before morning the first storm began, followed by two more, each worse than the one that had gone before. Sun Chaser was separated from the other two ships by the storm, being driven westward, where the crew had spotted three small islands. Once the storm was past, Sun Chaser returned to fetch the Lady Meredith (Autumn Moon had gone down in the storm) and set sail again to the islands, which the crews named Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya. The two ships remained for more than a fortnight as the crew made repairs and replenished their stores.[3]

When the two ships departed the islands, they parted ways. Alys Westhill sailed the Sun Chaser westward, and was never seen again as far as history knows. When Ser Corlys Velaryon sailed to Asshai-by-the-Shadow on the second of his nine great voyages, he spotted an old and much weathered ship which he believed was Sun Chaser.[3]
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1879 on: May 20, 2019, 03:03:21 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I will say, I think it was pretty clear what the ultimate significance of Jon's heritage was -- it was a major factor in Dany becoming unhinged and desperate, deciding that she needed to solidify her rule with "fear" instead of "love," because she knew that the people would side with Jon if given the chance.

That in turn served as a major motivator for Jon to do what he did.  Both Tyrion and Arya urged him to do what was necessary because neither he nor his family would ever be safe so long as Dany perceived them as threats to her rule.

THe thing is ... if Jon ever takes a wilding wife (assuming returning from the dead doesn’t make you celibate), the realm is doomed in 100 years when Bran dies of old age and one of Jon’s heirs ventures East to go tame some dragons (assuming Drogon is gonna lay some eggs) and claim his birthright.  Welcome to Game of Thrones 2.

I'm pretty fond of the idea that to most of Westeros Jon Snow is a Queenslayer Oathbreaker (multiple times!) traitorous basterd who consorts with wildlings and Red Women, is the revenant of a heathen god, and immediately shirked his sentence to run off beyond the Wall. Within a decade it'll be popular belief that he was in league with the army of the dead, or even leading it, and Bran's perceived legitimacy would probably suffer greatly by association.

They'll be pressuring Sansa so hard to fix the Wall and revitalize the Night's Watch just to keep him and his imaginary invasion force of wildlings and demons out.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1880 on: May 20, 2019, 03:23:16 PM »

Offline PhoSita

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I will say, I think it was pretty clear what the ultimate significance of Jon's heritage was -- it was a major factor in Dany becoming unhinged and desperate, deciding that she needed to solidify her rule with "fear" instead of "love," because she knew that the people would side with Jon if given the chance.

That in turn served as a major motivator for Jon to do what he did.  Both Tyrion and Arya urged him to do what was necessary because neither he nor his family would ever be safe so long as Dany perceived them as threats to her rule.

THe thing is ... if Jon ever takes a wilding wife (assuming returning from the dead doesn’t make you celibate), the realm is doomed in 100 years when Bran dies of old age and one of Jon’s heirs ventures East to go tame some dragons (assuming Drogon is gonna lay some eggs) and claim his birthright.  Welcome to Game of Thrones 2.

I'm pretty fond of the idea that to most of Westeros Jon Snow is a Queenslayer Oathbreaker (multiple times!) traitorous basterd who consorts with wildlings and Red Women, is the revenant of a heathen god, and immediately shirked his sentence to run off beyond the Wall. Within a decade it'll be popular belief that he was in league with the army of the dead, or even leading it, and Bran's perceived legitimacy would probably suffer greatly by association.

They'll be pressuring Sansa so hard to fix the Wall and revitalize the Night's Watch just to keep him and his imaginary invasion force of wildlings and demons out.

Jon is Mance Rayder 2.0. 
You’ll have to excuse my lengthiness—the reason I dread writing letters is because I am so apt to get to slinging wisdom & forget to let up. Thus much precious time is lost.
- Mark Twain

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1881 on: May 20, 2019, 03:47:02 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I will say, I think it was pretty clear what the ultimate significance of Jon's heritage was -- it was a major factor in Dany becoming unhinged and desperate, deciding that she needed to solidify her rule with "fear" instead of "love," because she knew that the people would side with Jon if given the chance.

That in turn served as a major motivator for Jon to do what he did.  Both Tyrion and Arya urged him to do what was necessary because neither he nor his family would ever be safe so long as Dany perceived them as threats to her rule.

THe thing is ... if Jon ever takes a wilding wife (assuming returning from the dead doesn’t make you celibate), the realm is doomed in 100 years when Bran dies of old age and one of Jon’s heirs ventures East to go tame some dragons (assuming Drogon is gonna lay some eggs) and claim his birthright.  Welcome to Game of Thrones 2.

I'm pretty fond of the idea that to most of Westeros Jon Snow is a Queenslayer Oathbreaker (multiple times!) traitorous basterd who consorts with wildlings and Red Women, is the revenant of a heathen god, and immediately shirked his sentence to run off beyond the Wall. Within a decade it'll be popular belief that he was in league with the army of the dead, or even leading it, and Bran's perceived legitimacy would probably suffer greatly by association.

They'll be pressuring Sansa so hard to fix the Wall and revitalize the Night's Watch just to keep him and his imaginary invasion force of wildlings and demons out.

Jon is Mance Rayder 2.0.

I made that exact comment when they showed that shot haha. Swerved off an Aemon-ish final arc to a Mance one. He'll wind up a king one way or another.

But he's Mance combined with all the Long Night and Lord of Light rumors and superstitions. Wicked undead Jon Snow lurking in the cold darkness with his ice spiders, shadow assassins, grumpkins and snarks. Kinda Dark Knight-ish to be honest.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1882 on: May 20, 2019, 06:26:41 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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I'm pretty fond of the idea that to most of Westeros Jon Snow is a Queenslayer Oathbreaker (multiple times!) traitorous basterd who consorts with wildlings and Red Women, is the revenant of a heathen god, and immediately shirked his sentence to run off beyond the Wall.

He also galvanized the resistance to the Night King and the dead, so I doubt any one forgets that one.

Quote
I actually don’t agree with this.  Season 6 was one of the best in my opinion and that was all non-source material.

From season five onward, their goal was to cater to fans with using the knowledge of the books they had.  Also, Martin has chapters of six done and they may have used this material.

Quote
“I don’t think Dan and Dave’s ending is gonna be that different from my ending,” Martin told 60 Minutes last month. He explained that, years ago, he walked the pair through his plan for how the books will end. (However, Benioff and Weiss have made changes to Martin’s source material, so some of what we’ve seen may not be book spoilers at all.)

One small consolation to fans who’ve been waiting for years, however, is that a decent chunk of The Winds of Winter has actually already been released. Martin has posted the full text of seven chapters, and read another four aloud at various events.

And indeed, Benioff and Weiss have confirmed that certain twists in recent seasons of the show — like Shireen Baratheon’s death by burning and Hodor’s origin story — came directly from Martin. Jon Snow’s resurrection, his true parentage, and his love affair with Daenerys are likely in this category too, as is the pair’s ultimate fate.

https://www.vox.com/2019/5/20/18631417/game-of-thrones-winds-of-winter-martin-release-date

So as one can see they had plenty of Martin to work with on season six, but once they took over writing it was not so good.  So disagree away.....

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1883 on: May 20, 2019, 08:51:23 PM »

Online slamtheking

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just saw it.  hated it.  really craptastic ending.

every complaint mentioned here about the episode is pretty much dead-on and then some.

hated Jamie and Cersei being found dead by Tyrion.  would have been better if Cersei survived, said/did something about how Tyrion should be the one that died instead of Jamie and then have Tyrion kill Cersei.  what they put in the show was pointless.

Tyrion and Jon's interactions with Dany as she addressed the Dothraki and Unsullied were weak.  sure, throw the hand symbol.  big deal.  Based on Dany's actions and the speech she just gave, she would have had Tyrion killed on the spot.

the interaction between Dany and Jon was about the only scene that jived with how things were going until she tried to win him back.  I don't see her taking Jon back after being scorned.   Drogon's reaction was ok when melting the throne but doing nothing to Jon was BS - required speculation that it was his Targaryen blood that saved him which is pretty flimsy.  as mentioned elsewhere, it would have made more sense to have him get on Drogon and leave.

Bran as king?  total crap.  no way the lords or people go for that.  Tyrion's reasoning was BS.  How does no one bring up Jon's heritage as the rightful heir to either crown him or to get him out of the mess with Greyworm?  complete waste of all the talk about his heritage.  not only that, but Sansa gets to carve out the North as her personal kingdom but her brother gets the other 6 kingdoms?  what a crock -- and no one objects?

ending came across as purely a set up for sequels for all the Starks, particularly Arya and Jon. 

hated this episode.  unbelievably unsatisfying on so many levels.

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1884 on: May 20, 2019, 11:06:44 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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I'm pretty fond of the idea that to most of Westeros Jon Snow is a Queenslayer Oathbreaker (multiple times!) traitorous basterd who consorts with wildlings and Red Women, is the revenant of a heathen god, and immediately shirked his sentence to run off beyond the Wall.

He also galvanized the resistance to the Night King and the dead, so I doubt any one forgets that one.


The only people that actually know what happened at Winterfell are a bunch of Northmen and Wildlings (mostly dead, the survivors will remember but aren't part of the Seven Kingdoms anymore), some troops from the Vale (mostly dead, will head back to their isolated region), a bunch of Dothraki and Unsullied (mostly dead, survivors left the continent) and a bare handful of Southerners like Tyrion. So most of the masses are gonna hear about it only after it's filtered through the rumor mill a bunch of times, and with every kingdom but maybe Dorne and the church in upheaval rumors and superstition will run wild.


hated Jamie and Cersei being found dead by Tyrion.  would have been better if Cersei survived, said/did something about how Tyrion should be the one that died instead of Jamie and then have Tyrion kill Cersei.  what they put in the show was pointless.

When Tyrion found them and was slamming the brick I really hoped they'd cut to him hitting Cersei's head with it. "I had to be sure!"  :P

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1885 on: May 20, 2019, 11:29:27 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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The spoilers ended up being correct.


I don't really buy that the lords of the realm etc would have gone along with choosing Bran. 

Also hard for me to believe Drogon wouldn't have turned Jon into a fritter after seeing him standing over Dany's corpse.


Overall, a perfectly fine ending.  How they got there though ... meh.


Anybody who really liked Danaerys as a character probably feels betrayed, and rightly so.  They did not do her justice.
Dany and Cersei were my two favorite characters.  Nice and complex.  Jon Snow on the other hand was a simpleton.  The female characters in general were more 3 dimensional than the male characters. 

I'd have been fine with the turn of events if they hadn't butcher it so badly in Episode 5.  Dany had everything she wanted.  An easy victory where she and Drogon inspired such great fear that the Lanister army just surrendered.   She would have had the whole of King's Landing bending the knee to her.  She would have been able to rule from a relatively undamaged King's Landing.  Dany's brutally in the past was explainable and generally justifiable.  Destroying King's Landing simply made no sense from Dany's perspective.  All they needed to do to make it explainable was to have some Lannister troops fire some arrows at her and Drogon after the bells had rung.  That would have pushed her over the edge and in her mind justified destroying the city. 

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1886 on: May 21, 2019, 12:32:56 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Bran becoming King was odd but it is somewhat explainable.  The leadership of the Houses had pretty much been destroyed.  Look at who was doing the electing.   Generally a bunch of lesser players who have little support and little ability or qualifications to rule the 7 Kingdoms.  Sansa was really the only one who showed some leadership and backbone.  I almost thought she was going to make a play to rule but she hates the south and only wanted to rule the North.  I expect many of them saw Bran as weak with little support.  A weak King would mean more power to the Houses and would be someone who could be pushed aside in the future. 

In reality, Bran could be a horrible choice but not because he's weak.  Bran isn't human anymore.  His goals whatever they are may not be in the interest of humans. With his three eyed raven powers fully developed, he'd have great knowledge to use to meet those goals.  He's already taken over Hodor's mind.  With full powers, he may be able to control/influence other people's minds who aren't mentally challenged.  I found it interesting that Bran asked about Drogon's location and later said he'd search for Drogon while Tyrion and the others dealt with the mundane issues of rebuilding.  Why would Bran be focused on Drogon who has flown far to the East besides trying to mind control him.  Bran as the three eyed raven with a mind controlled dragon could be very bad.  While Sansa noted that Bran couldn't have children that doesn't matter to the three eyed raven.  The three eyed raven can transfer to another host when Bran's body deteriorates.     

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1887 on: May 21, 2019, 01:18:33 AM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I have a feeling George R R Martin told them

"Dany goes mad queen and burns down King's Landing.  Jon kills Dany. Jon ends up North of the Wall.   Bran ends up King"... and then they proceeded to fill in the blanks horribly.

On some level, I feel for them.  Obviously George R R Martin can't even figure out how to get to that end point.  But man, they blew it.

Bran:  Not fulfilling, because they never found the character interesting.  Flat out avoided him for a whole season.  Dipped their toes in the 3 Eyed Raven thing, but ultimately skated around it, because the fantasy element of the show always perplexed them.   They spent the last couple seasons just having him sit there acting like a weirdo consistently saying how he's "not a man" anymore - only to turn around go "hehe, just kidding guys I always knew I'd be King" - which is doubly upsetting because it means he sat by doing nothing while thousands died because like everyone else he had a boner for the Iron Throne.

Jon:  The entire story is about him.  He's the core arc of this entire endeavor.  I've been saying this all along.  He can choose to turn down the Throne in favor of living North of the Wall, but that needs to be communicated by him.  Leaving his fate to some randos who weirdly ignore what they know about his heritage was completely illogical.  That above all things leaves the biggest empty feeling about this conclusion.  It doesn't feel complete.

Dany:  I care less about this, because she's always been a mass-murdering nutjob to me, but I get how fans would be upset.  From what I understand, in the books she's a bit more of a looneytoon from the beginning... breast feeding her dragons and having weird hallucinations and things like that.  So really, my guess is the writers just never fully understood this character, leaned into her savior persona, and then scrambled to reverse course too late.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 01:27:57 AM by LarBrd33 »

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1888 on: May 21, 2019, 06:34:17 AM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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The only people that actually know what happened at Winterfell are a bunch of Northmen and Wildlings (mostly dead, the survivors will remember but aren't part of the Seven Kingdoms anymore), some troops from the Vale (mostly dead, will head back to their isolated region), a bunch of Dothraki and Unsullied (mostly dead, survivors left the continent) and a bare handful of Southerners like Tyrion. So most of the masses are gonna hear about it only after it's filtered through the rumor mill a bunch of times, and with every kingdom but maybe Dorne and the church in upheaval rumors and superstition will run wild.

Yet, I am sure Northmen skalds and bards would have made songs about this and it would have spread.   Look at the heroes of Greek mythology, probably some of them were based on real men of exceptional ability.   It was a small area in a big world and even the Romans heard of Alcaeus who become known as Heracles, who the Romans called Hercules.  Think how much that got improved by the rumor mill?   Things get even bigger for a better story.   It is much more likely that folks know him as the general at Winterfell and foe of the Nightking, than the killer of Cersei because more people knew about the former.  So nice, try, but I think you're way off on this one.

Quote
Dany and Cersei were my two favorite characters.  Nice and complex.  Jon Snow on the other hand was a simpleton.  The female characters in general were more 3 dimensional than the male characters. 

When I read the books and watch the show, I found the opposite to be true.   I thought the story would have been better with the cutting of all stuff not related to Jon Snow and it would have been a better book.  I wanted more on the wall and the Wildings as I thought this was way more action packed.  I have read fantasy and sword and sorcery for many years.  Martin is known as a father of a type of fantasy known as Grimdark which is fantasy deviod of idealism.   But those of us that read the books seemed less surprised than those that did not.   

Quote
Dany had everything she wanted. 

Also, a lesser claim to the throne, at the end of the day she was her brother's sister and her father's daughter.   

Quote
On some level, I feel for them.  Obviously George R R Martin can't even figure out how to get to that end point.  But man, they blew it.

Agree, total weaksauce from the frontrunners!

I did find this really funny though:

Quote
For many “Game of Throne” super fans, last night’s series finale felt more like losing a loved one than the end of a television show.

That’s why Bark.com, a UK-based social network that helps match users match with service providers (such as dog walkers), is offering “a specialized Game of Thrones counseling service” that promises to “help bereft fans seek support and get the help they need through this tough time.”

Grief-stricken fans have the opportunity to book with their “qualified” counselors for half- or full-hour sessions starting at £20 (about $25 in US currency). The professionals will help struggling viewers “digest their feelings and interpretation of the show, which could range from anger and confusion to sadness and grief.”

To anyone who’s ever lost a friend or family member, this might seem trivializing “grief,” but forlorn fans are making their suffering known on social media.

“Absolutely devastated Game of Thrones has finished. It were like losing a limb. #TheFinalEpisode,” tweets @jackkchall.

“Can we start a group therapy for all those who watched game of thrones?” adds @Aminmusaad_.

Take heart, dear fans, as this won’t be the last dispatch from Westeros: “A Song of Ice and Fire” author George R.R. Martin. He promises two more books — “The Winds of Winter” and “A Dream of Spring” — in the fantasy book series.

Martin claims he’s been working on the sixth novel for the better part of a decade even though the HBO series departed from the books back in season five. Still, “Game of Thrones” show-runners D.B. Weiss and David Benioff were allegedly privy to Martin’s final vision.

“The major points of the ending will be things I told them five or six years ago,” Martin tells Rolling Stone.

https://nypost.com/2019/05/20/counselors-on-call-to-give-game-of-thrones-fans-grief-therapy/

Re: A Game of Thrones (contains spoilers)
« Reply #1889 on: May 21, 2019, 09:04:39 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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I have a feeling George R R Martin told them

"Dany goes mad queen and burns down King's Landing.  Jon kills Dany. Jon ends up North of the Wall.   Bran ends up King"... and then they proceeded to fill in the blanks horribly.

On some level, I feel for them.  Obviously George R R Martin can't even figure out how to get to that end point.  But man, they blew it.

Bran:  Not fulfilling, because they never found the character interesting.  Flat out avoided him for a whole season.  Dipped their toes in the 3 Eyed Raven thing, but ultimately skated around it, because the fantasy element of the show always perplexed them.   They spent the last couple seasons just having him sit there acting like a weirdo consistently saying how he's "not a man" anymore - only to turn around go "hehe, just kidding guys I always knew I'd be King" - which is doubly upsetting because it means he sat by doing nothing while thousands died because like everyone else he had a boner for the Iron Throne.

Jon:  The entire story is about him.  He's the core arc of this entire endeavor.  I've been saying this all along.  He can choose to turn down the Throne in favor of living North of the Wall, but that needs to be communicated by him.  Leaving his fate to some randos who weirdly ignore what they know about his heritage was completely illogical.  That above all things leaves the biggest empty feeling about this conclusion.  It doesn't feel complete.

Dany:  I care less about this, because she's always been a mass-murdering nutjob to me, but I get how fans would be upset.  From what I understand, in the books she's a bit more of a looneytoon from the beginning... breast feeding her dragons and having weird hallucinations and things like that.  So really, my guess is the writers just never fully understood this character, leaned into her savior persona, and then scrambled to reverse course too late.
From what you understand?  You haven't read the books?  The entire story isn't about Jon.  He's never been out of the North in the books and has had nothing to do with the fight for the Iron Throne.  Dany's portrayal and story in the books was pretty much the same as the 1st 5 seasons.  Your take on Dany is completely off the wall and ignores all the good she did in the East.   

 

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