CelticsStrong

Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: droopdog7 on November 08, 2018, 10:24:14 PM

Title: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: droopdog7 on November 08, 2018, 10:24:14 PM
I know itís early but the results have been ugly.  Perhaps the off-season expectations were severely misguided?  Seems to be a fit to a large degree, but talent may also have been overestimated.  We have one proven star in Kyrie.  Thatís it.  We also have Horford who is a solid solid player.  Does all the dirty work.

As for the rest, well, they all have warts.  Jaylen is athletic but inconsistent with low basketball IQ.  Heís essentially the anti supporting player.  Unsteady, erratic, and often out of control.  I continue to be very bearish about his potential and future.  Not a star in the making at all.

Smart is smart.  Gritty defender but below average offensively.  Hayward not ready. Morris has been great but can make you pull your hair out when heís bad.  Rozier has been awful.  Played WAY over his head in the playoffs and having really hard time with his minutes.

As for Tatum. Iím more bullish on him and expect him to be very good.  But there is a chance that weíre wrong.  His iso ball is troubling.  Is he the next KD or the next melo?   We shall see.

Now onto fit.  Obviously theyíre experiencing growing pains but who thought that a mix of smart, Morris, and rozier sounded good?  If Morris wasnít playing over his head, theyíd be a complete disaster. 

I think the starters will get better but I still say switching out brown for a steady player would improve the team.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: knuckleballer on November 08, 2018, 11:05:24 PM
It's still too early.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: gouki88 on November 08, 2018, 11:10:49 PM
It's still too early.
Dunno about that
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: PhoSita on November 08, 2018, 11:23:55 PM
They're still great on defense.


Issues -- they are 29th in free throws per offensive play.

They're top 5 in three pointers attempted but only 15th (dead average) in shooting percentage from three.

They're also dead last in points in the paint per game, which is partly due to pace, but also because they lack an inside presence on offense.

They're 21st in Total Rebounding %.



Basically, they throw up a lot of of jumpers, they're just OK at hitting the jumpers, they don't get inside, they don't get free throws, and they don't rebound very well.


They're great defensively but that can only help you so much.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: keevsnick on November 08, 2018, 11:52:14 PM
I know itís early but the results have been ugly.  Perhaps the off-season expectations were severely misguided?  Seems to be a fit to a large degree, but talent may also have been overestimated.  We have one proven star in Kyrie.  Thatís it.  We also have Horford who is a solid solid player.  Does all the dirty work.

As for the rest, well, they all have warts.  Jaylen is athletic but inconsistent with low basketball IQ.  Heís essentially the anti supporting player.  Unsteady, erratic, and often out of control.  I continue to be very bearish about his potential and future.  Not a star in the making at all.

Smart is smart.  Gritty defender but below average offensively.  Hayward not ready. Morris has been great but can make you pull your hair out when heís bad.  Rozier has been awful.  Played WAY over his head in the playoffs and having really hard time with his minutes.

As for Tatum. Iím more bullish on him and expect him to be very good.  But there is a chance that weíre wrong.  His iso ball is troubling.  Is he the next KD or the next melo?   We shall see.

Now onto fit.  Obviously theyíre experiencing growing pains but who thought that a mix of smart, Morris, and rozier sounded good?  If Morris wasnít playing over his head, theyíd be a complete disaster. 

I think the starters will get better but I still say switching out brown for a steady player would improve the team.

So about Jaylen. 6/8 in the second half for seventeen points and excellent defense. Some might call that an anti-anti supporting player.

But seriously, I just think its too early to make broad judgements. We need to get better going inside, we need to get better at generating free throws, and we need to get better at hitting our wide open shots. We have guys who can do that. Hayward hands been pretty good at getting to the rim and should get better as he shakes off the rust. Jaylen can get by just about anyone and has been much agressive to the rim lately. Tatum won't keep on missing literally every shot he takes for the whole season. We have the talent, we just have to figure out how to play together. This team is struggling under the burden of its own expectations right now, but they will figure it out.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: droopdog7 on November 08, 2018, 11:58:34 PM
Scratch everything I said :).
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: Kyriefor3 on November 09, 2018, 12:09:15 AM
Hey guys new here but long time Celtics fan. Great game tonight had me fuming at points to obviously ecstatic. I really have bad feelings about Gordon, I understand he is coming off a terrible injury and he needs time to recover but man I feel like his shot shouldnít be this affected especially with those spot up threes and recovering from this type of injury is not something many athletes can do. I understand PG did it but Gordon has never even averaged 20 a year or been as explosive as him. As for Tatum I really think Kobe ****ed his head up and got him out of his game and did it to pay us back as Celtic fans lol. I really liked how jaylen started going back to the basic and getting to the rim in the second half and built his confidence up for that OT three. Looking forward to posting and interacting with you guys cheers go Cís!
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: Smartacus on November 09, 2018, 12:15:22 AM
Here are my biases with this team...

I think the best version of this team revolves around Horford, Hayward, Tatum, and Irving.

I think Gordon Hayward is and will continue to be better than Jaylen Brown.

But...

Brown is dealing with the shell shock of the roster crunch better than Tatum and Hayward is not as close in his rehab that we were hoping. Jaylen is more mature and ready to show up in big moments than Tatum who is having more trouble finding his way than I would've hoped.

I'm still pro Hayward over Brown but I admit I can reverse that opinion with a significant sample size of data. At this point I am not convinced we can run a starting lineup of Hayward/Brown/Tatum at the highest levels. Hopefully they prove me wrong.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: GreenEnvy on November 09, 2018, 12:32:37 AM
I canít explain why they are missing so many open threes and layups. Most of the time I am pleased with what they are getting, they just arenít converting.

11 games now is a decent stretch, they need to turn it up. Itís clearly a lack of focus. Too many are shooting well under their career averages. Morris and Irving are the only ones playing up to expectations.

The defense has been good, but inconsistent. Sometimes they are lockdown, sometimes they are lazy.

I still believe this is a case of luck. Some bad luck on offense, some good luck by other teams. There were so many instances tonight that we missed a wide open shot and they came down and hit a significantly harder one. The lead should have been half what it was most of the night. But they woke up and played well enough the last 4 minutes of regulation and OT (hitting 13 shots in a row).

A bunch of close games thus far, only two blowouts. We deserved to lose tonight, but won. We should have won Saturday, but lost. Long season.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: nickagneta on November 09, 2018, 12:52:45 AM
Another hot take thread that aged poorly. 😉😋😁😎
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: KGBirdBias on November 09, 2018, 09:36:34 AM
Some of you are good at playing MMQB after a win. Look this team is struggling and anyone can see it. I think they learned a hard lesson last night. Teams are coming for their head even though they didn't win anything last year. They have to play hard and play like their hair is on fire.

If Brad has to shake it up, cut mins during a game to put guys out there that are going to play hard, then we'll see a different team. Teams will eventually succumb to their talent but they have to play much harder and smarter.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: fairweatherfan on November 09, 2018, 09:41:28 AM
One thing you can definitively say after such a small sample size is that Hayward is not yet ready to be back in All-Star form. Another is that Tatum needs to not buy into his own hype. 

Outside of that, making the open shots that we're very good at creating will cure a lot of ills. Let's hope that kicks in sooner than later.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: fairweatherfan on November 09, 2018, 09:41:30 AM
Double post, glitch in the Matrix.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: td450 on November 09, 2018, 10:29:54 AM
I strongly disagree about Brown, who I see as the most important player on the team, but I do agree there are issues.

I don't blame Stevens for taking the approach he has early, but as the season progresses, we need to prune the rotations. Long term, I think the team needs to build around Brown and Tatum's skills.

Both guys are just OK one on one players who are very young, and will become killers in a few years. Both guys can really run and shoot right now. With space, they can create offense, but this should be brought along slowly. Tatum in particular has slipped into some bad habits. Last year he picked his spots better. Brown needs reps and much more offensive movement.  He benefitted more from the aggressive pacing that Rozier brought than anyone else. Kyrie is slowing things down. The passing is below average.

This team almost never forces mismatches. It has three big wings but rarely scores on cuts or pin downs. The guys are open, but the passes aren't made very often.

My concern is that Kyrie really doesn't create for others very well, and uses up a lot of the oxygen on offense. I had hoped that Hayward would help create shots for others, but he isn't doing that yet. To me, the big thing is whether Kyrie will do what it takes to create opportunities for Tatum and Brown. The best version of the C's is where we run teams off the floor and those two guys are scoring an efficient 15 ppg.



Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: BitterJim on November 09, 2018, 11:02:17 AM
Hey guys new here but long time Celtics fan. Great game tonight had me fuming at points to obviously ecstatic. I really have bad feelings about Gordon, I understand he is coming off a terrible injury and he needs time to recover but man I feel like his shot shouldnít be this affected especially with those spot up threes and recovering from this type of injury is not something many athletes can do. I understand PG did it but Gordon has never even averaged 20 a year or been as explosive as him. As for Tatum I really think Kobe ****ed his head up and got him out of his game and did it to pay us back as Celtic fans lol. I really liked how jaylen started going back to the basic and getting to the rim in the second half and built his confidence up for that OT three. Looking forward to posting and interacting with you guys cheers go Cís!

This is not at all accurate. He averaged 19.3, 19.7, and 21.7ppg on one of the the slowest-paced teams his last 3 years in Utah. He needs time to get back to playing NBA basketball after missing an entire year. Shooting drills, etc. are great, but shooting in a real game, with defenders, and fans, and people actually counting on you is a different animal. Expecting him to be 100% in a month is unreasonable
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: Donoghus on November 09, 2018, 11:15:19 AM
Celtics currently have the same record after 7 games as the '10-11 Heat.

These things take time to gel.  Better to work out the kinks now rather than March.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: angryguy77 on November 09, 2018, 11:26:49 AM
It's great they won and had a comeback, however they should have never been in that situation to begin with. The Suns were a 2-8 team.

Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: angryguy77 on November 09, 2018, 11:28:34 AM
Celtics currently have the same record after 7 games as the '10-11 Heat.

These things take time to gel.  Better to work out the kinks now rather than March.

The sky hasn't fallen yet, but I don't like the comparison to the heat.

This team doesn't have the player of the generation, a D-Wade still on his prime, and Chris Bosh.

Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: Donoghus on November 09, 2018, 11:28:38 AM
It's great they won and had a comeback, however they should have never been in that situation to begin with. The Suns were a 2-8 team.

This I agree with.    Last night was a win they escaped with that they had no business winning in a game that they should've steamrolled to begin with.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: Donoghus on November 09, 2018, 11:29:43 AM
Celtics currently have the same record after 7 games as the '10-11 Heat.

These things take time to gel.  Better to work out the kinks now rather than March.

The sky hasn't fallen yet, but I don't like the comparison to the heat.

This team doesn't have the player of the generation, a D-Wade still on his prime, and Chris Bosh.

Alluding more to the fact of getting all of these moving parts to work together.

Not great team came together immediately like the '07-08 Celtics.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: PhoSita on November 09, 2018, 11:38:48 AM
One thing you can definitively say after such a small sample size is that Hayward is not yet ready to be back in All-Star form. Another is that Tatum needs to not buy into his own hype. 

Outside of that, making the open shots that we're very good at creating will cure a lot of ills. Let's hope that kicks in sooner than later.

Hayward right now reminds me of Manu Ginobili in one of his mid-30s years when he was playing banged up.

Still crafty, gets the shots he wants most of the time, but is too slow and not explosive enough to break the defense, and misses a lot of easy shots.

I kind of like the idea of Hayward as a bigger Manu for this team, but at $30 million a year the team was surely hoping to get more than that.  The injury was a wrench in that plan, of course.  Hopefully he regains some of his old game by March / April.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: Rosco917 on November 09, 2018, 11:48:03 AM
It's not too early to be at least talking about solutions. Not with the showing they had in pre-season and to this point. With the personnel that this team has, they are underachieving.

IMO the chemistry is not right. We go on long scoring droughts because we live and die at the 3 point line. Maybe we have to come to the realization that we're not the Warriors. Maybe we'll never be. We may have to have more set plays, and we definitely need to get into the paint to collapse the defense more often. In the sport of basketball, there are many ways to skin a cat. 

Lastly...We have too many players in the starting lineup that need the ball. This team needs a lineup adjustment. Hayward, Tatum, and Brown look like they can't be on the floor at the same time. The young kids haven't yet learned to be complementary players, they end up just being timid. 
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: KGBirdBias on November 09, 2018, 11:49:29 AM
My synopsis of the starters.

Irving - Like another poster said, the ball stops as he's trying to create. I would rather see him close games like last night but spend more of the game getting others open.

Hayward - It's going to take time. I think he's still thinking and not instinctively reacting. He's probably still unsure of his body. He needs more iso's early in the games and needs to be the go-to guy with reserves so he can start to get that #1 scorer feeling back. Early in the games when the game isn't on the line.

Tatum - He needs to get stronger with the ball and stop deferring so quickly in the offense. I'd like to see him post up more because he's great on the block and most don't have his size.

Brown - He makes me cringe when he starts to handle the ball to much. He has small hands and small feet, which causes him to lose balance or lose the ball many times. He's another one that needs to post up more and work on midrange game. If he gets midrange game down, the defenders won't know how to cover him because he's a great slasher and improved shooter already.

Horford - Too bad everyone wants to play him at C. He's much better with a big C playing next too him. His skills and unmatched but he probably needs to be more of a vocal leader in times like this.

For now I still want Stevens to tinker with rotations and lineups. Right now the starters are playing too much finesse ball and the reserves bring the grit and hustle. We need a better mix.Just my opinion, not the gospel.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: Moranis on November 09, 2018, 12:02:29 PM
This team won't be a real contender until Hayward is the best player on the team.  Irving just isn't good enough to be the main guy on a champion.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: SparzWizard on November 09, 2018, 12:37:49 PM
Celtics currently have the same record after 7 games as the '10-11 Heat.

These things take time to gel.  Better to work out the kinks now rather than March.

The sky hasn't fallen yet, but I don't like the comparison to the heat.

This team doesn't have the player of the generation, a D-Wade still on his prime, and Chris Bosh.

Alluding more to the fact of getting all of these moving parts to work together.

Not great team came together immediately like the '07-08 Celtics.

It's because we are so talented at the wing position. Somebody has to be the odd-man out right.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: droopdog7 on November 09, 2018, 01:44:25 PM
They're going to eventually need to establish a pecking order.  You can't have a democratic offense because no one gets into a rhythm.  So assuming that happens, can the third and fourth and fifth options play those roles well?  We know Horford can but what about brown and, eventually perhaps tatum?

I've said many times we would a better team if we could replace a guy or two with specialist that don't need the ball to be effective.  Not proposing a specific trade but a guy like Ariza for instance would do very well on this team. 
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 09, 2018, 01:46:45 PM
im not buying LP yet ... too much clowning around
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: PhoSita on November 09, 2018, 01:56:34 PM
This team won't be a real contender until Hayward is the best player on the team.  Irving just isn't good enough to be the main guy on a champion.

The best guy on a champion in a league with the Warriors in it, or a league with normal talent distribution?

Right now, nobody is good enough to be the best player on a champion unless they're on the Warriors.

In a normal league, I think Kyrie is absolutely good enough.  The combination of elite defense and an elite individual scorer is a good recipe for a title, if some things break your way and you have home court advantage.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: celticsclay on November 09, 2018, 02:01:46 PM
This team won't be a real contender until Hayward is the best player on the team.  Irving just isn't good enough to be the main guy on a champion.

The best guy on a champion in a league with the Warriors in it, or a league with normal talent distribution?

Right now, nobody is good enough to be the best player on a champion unless they're on the Warriors.

In a normal league, I think Kyrie is absolutely good enough.  The combination of elite defense and an elite individual scorer is a good recipe for a title, if some things break your way and you have home court advantage.

I agree with this Phosita, although maybe Cousins will somehow screw up the Warriors.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: Moranis on November 09, 2018, 02:12:07 PM
This team won't be a real contender until Hayward is the best player on the team.  Irving just isn't good enough to be the main guy on a champion.

The best guy on a champion in a league with the Warriors in it, or a league with normal talent distribution?

Right now, nobody is good enough to be the best player on a champion unless they're on the Warriors.

In a normal league, I think Kyrie is absolutely good enough.  The combination of elite defense and an elite individual scorer is a good recipe for a title, if some things break your way and you have home court advantage.
That isn't true.  Plenty of players are good enough to be the best player on a champion, they just may not have an overall team that can compete with the Warriors (I mean Harden's Rockets were basically a Paul injury away from beating them last year).  I'd put the players that are good enough (i.e. Gold Medal Superstars) as Lebron, Durant, Curry, Davis, Giannis, Leonard, Harden, and Westbrook.  I think Embiid could be there in a season or two and guys like Dirk, Wade, and Paul were, but aren't at that level any more (obviously Paul is closer to that level right now than the others).  Guys like Irving and Hayward are in the next tier down (along with players like Lillard, George, Butler, Jokic, Paul, Embiid, etc.) such that in a rare season and when coupled with multiple similarly skilled players a team might be able to win a title, but that team likely isn't going to be in the running year after year.  The Pistons of 2004-05 are an example of that type of team.  A nice 2 season run, but needed some crazy luck to actually break through and win the title. 

To be a real contender this year, Boston absolutely needs Hayward to get back into form and needs Tatum to continue to develop.  The team would then have 3 to 4 silver level players (Hayward, Irving, Tatum, Horford) and a bronze or 2 (Brown, Smart or Rozier), such that the right luck and they could beat a team or two with a gold medal superstar and win the title (again much like the Pistons did beating the Lakers).  Though as you say the Warriors aren't like most other contending teams, which poses a real difficulty not usually around (though an injury to Curry or Durant and that Warriors team becomes beatable).

Only if Tatum reaches max potential and ascends into the gold medal category (or Boston acquires that player, like say Davis) will Boston be a consistent and yearly contender for years on end. 
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: PhoSita on November 09, 2018, 02:54:26 PM
That isn't true.  Plenty of players are good enough to be the best player on a champion, they just may not have an overall team that can compete with the Warriors

Way to miss my point (deliberately, I think).


I think Kyrie can absolutely be the focal point of a team that has a top 5 offense and a top 5 defense, let's put it that way. 

He's not gonna do the heavy lifting on defense and he can't do everything on offense, but that doesn't change the conclusion.

Top 5 on both ends puts you in contention in a league that doesn't have a four-headed titan living at the top of the mountain.


As the league stands right now, LeBron isn't good enough to beat the Warriors as the singular best player on his own team.  He'd probably need to team up with at least two other All-NBA talents to have a shot at beating them.


If the Warriors didn't exist, I'd be just fine with having Kyrie as my guy, even if I knew that I would need a very talented and deep team around him that excels on defense. 

Good thing is, the Celts have that deep, talented defensive team.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: Moranis on November 09, 2018, 02:57:43 PM
That isn't true.  Plenty of players are good enough to be the best player on a champion, they just may not have an overall team that can compete with the Warriors

Way to miss my point (deliberately, I think).


I think Kyrie can absolutely be the focal point of a team that has a top 5 offense and a top 5 defense, let's put it that way. 

He's not gonna do the heavy lifting on defense and he can't do everything on offense, but that doesn't change the conclusion.

Top 5 on both ends puts you in contention in a league that doesn't have a four-headed titan living at the top of the mountain.


As the league stands right now, LeBron isn't good enough to beat the Warriors as the singular best player on his own team.  He'd probably need to team up with at least two other All-NBA talents to have a shot at beating them.


If the Warriors didn't exist, I'd be just fine with having Kyrie as my guy, even if I knew that I would need a very talented and deep team around him that excels on defense. 

Good thing is, the Celts have that deep, talented defensive team.
I didn't miss your point at all, I just disagree with your assessment of Irving.  I don't think he is that type of player.  I think he could be a very good #2, like he was in Cleveland, but I just don't think he is a #1 player.  You are free to disagree, which is fine.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: mobilija on November 09, 2018, 04:20:12 PM
Another hot take thread that aged poorly. 😉😋😁😎

It seems like calling posts ďhot takesĒ that express dissatisfaction w the start of the season is the real current hot take dad.

Why is this post a ďhot takeĒ?
Poster wants to go in depth w why the team is starting slow, wants to re-examine.

Small sentence at the end about changing the line-up, therefore this is a hot take? We should squash this thread then! Censorship!  ::)
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: Birdman on November 09, 2018, 04:47:52 PM
Need a rim protector bad!!! and no inside game
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: RodyTur10 on November 09, 2018, 05:36:39 PM
Need a rim protector bad!!! and no inside game

That lack of inside game is by choice. Smart, Brown, Hayward, Tatum, Morris and Horford can all play from the post against mismatches.

Baynes, Theis and Williams are all (potentially) good rim protectors. You just need to give them minutes.




 

Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: nickagneta on November 09, 2018, 06:27:28 PM
Another hot take thread that aged poorly. 😉😋😁😎

It seems like calling posts ďhot takesĒ that express dissatisfaction w the start of the season is the real current hot take dad.

Why is this post a ďhot takeĒ?
Poster wants to go in depth w why the team is starting slow, wants to re-examine.

Small sentence at the end about changing the line-up, therefore this is a hot take? We should squash this thread then! Censorship!  ::)
My comment was more of a joke, hence the emojis. The thread was started in the middle of last night's game and was a direct negative  response made under the assumption the Celtics would lose because at the time they were playing poorly.

Then, like they did 6-8 times last year, they turned things around and won after being down 20+. Heck, the OP even joked by saying nevermind in a post after the win.

Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: Rosco917 on November 09, 2018, 06:37:31 PM
They're going to eventually need to establish a pecking order.  You can't have a democratic offense because no one gets into a rhythm.  So assuming that happens, can the third and fourth and fifth options play those roles well?  We know Horford can but what about brown and, eventually perhaps tatum?

I've said many times we would a better team if we could replace a guy or two with specialist that don't need the ball to be effective.  Not proposing a specific trade but a guy like Ariza for instance would do very well on this team.



TP
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: Chris22 on November 10, 2018, 01:48:22 AM
Need a rim protector bad!!! and no inside game

Start Baynes and play Williams.


Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: Celtics4ever on November 10, 2018, 06:53:55 AM
I think it is as simple as we need to shoot better.   I don't know what our guys did this summer save Morris but it is clear that shooting practice may not have been it.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: KGBirdBias on November 10, 2018, 07:42:19 AM
Need a rim protector bad!!! and no inside game

Start Baynes and play Williams.

I agree with this. Our perimeter D has been poor. I'm not sure what Lillard and McCollum will do to us. I also don't see any fire from Hayward. He seems unsure and tentative. I'm sure it will all come back but we need a few 20 pt games from him.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: mctyson on November 10, 2018, 10:46:58 AM
I do not think it is crazy to say that Celtics fans should be at least slightly worried about this team and this season.

From what I have seen thus far, they do not look like a Finals competitor at all.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: GreenWarrior on November 10, 2018, 05:46:01 PM
I love how everyone's asking "what's wrong with this team?", dancing around the issue, searching for answers when we've had the answer for a few yrs. now. there's a pattern here.

ever since stevens got here there's been a consistent theme. shoot jump shots and just keep shooting them. his 1st season here the players would take pull up jump shots from just under the 3 pt line with 20 secs. on the shot clock, it was so bad at times I was wondering why we even dribbled the ball down the court when we inbounded the ball because it just seemed like a waste of time with the bad shot selection we had...(and continue to have).

all we need to do(and I've mentioned this many times before) is look how we've been eliminated from the playoffs under stevens. we go through a 2-3 min. stretch in an elimination game taking prayer shots from 3 that are usually contested, but even the wide open ones don't fall because of the bad habit of taking bad shots.

have we ever heard of the phrase "open for a reason"?

yeah we're not getting guys open this season, teams are leaving us open. I've recognized this over the yrs., teams pretty much play us for the pass on drives - because no one on this team is a consistent threat to drive all the way to the basket. they're saying you're going to have to make 35 3's to beat us. sound familiar? that's what the bucks did... we happened to make 'em.

it was one thing when we had AB and all that other garbage, but now we're supposed to have better players, much better players... and I believe we do. but when guys like tatum, brown and hayward are just relegated to being jump shooters what was the point if the result is the same?

there is no higher percentage shot than a dunk or a lay up. why do we make it so difficult on ourselves?

i'm not saying we need to get rid of stevens just yet though just because I don't agree with the philosophy... I didn't always like doc either. but this season is real big in giving us the answer on weather we should.

I know no one will agree to this but I fully believe... heck! I've been around long enough to know a bad coach can sink any team, but a good coach gets the guys to play together regardless of x's and o's and or philosophy.

we've gotten better every season under stevens, every season his philosophy has killed us imo. depending on how this season ends some guys might need to look in the mirror. 
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: cman88 on November 10, 2018, 07:15:17 PM
I think its clearly they just dont quite know how to play together yet. This is the same team that rattled off 16 game win streak last year after Hayward went down. But, at that point Kyrie was the established #1 scorer, Jaylen operated as #2. and Tatum was a corner 3 point guy.

Now, a year later you add Hayward to the mix. Tatum is more than a corner 3 guy hanging in the background and Jaylen brown is trying to figure how he fits in all this after being a guy forced to carry the team in last years playoffs.

Difference between last years team, and this so far is that the roles were established last year and Guys fit into them. I dont think guys quite know what the roles are so far this year or how to fit into it.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: GreenWarrior on November 11, 2018, 10:02:15 AM
yeah, another mistake so far by stevens imo. that team that lost in the EC finals last season deserved to pick up where they left off. hayward should have been the one sacrificed here. and it's not even a sacrifice considering he's the one coming off an injury, everyone would understand him not starting.

everyone says this is all so we're a better team at the end of the yr., sure I get that. but why does he have to start? these guys can't play together otherwise?

the reason I ask that is we have a couple young guys that are pretty promising in brown and tatum and carried and established themselves in a pretty big way in the playoffs last yr. . why mess with that? we're asking these guys on the verge of exploding to now hold back? why? I would think you'd want to keep them going.

you can't force chemistry, it needs to grow organically.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: Bobshot on November 11, 2018, 10:12:12 AM
The only thing that's different from last year is Hayward.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: knuckleballer on November 11, 2018, 11:14:48 AM
The only thing that's different from last year is Hayward.

Brown and Tatum really upped their games after Kyrie went down as did Rozier.  I think those guys are struggling to figure out their roles now regardless of whether Hayward is in the game or not.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: Celtics4ever on November 11, 2018, 12:09:25 PM
Quote
The only thing that's different from last year is Hayward.

And this season, we can't shoot which is the true problem.  Not lack of big production, not players coming back, shots are not falling.....
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: GreenWarrior on November 11, 2018, 01:25:52 PM
Quote
The only thing that's different from last year is Hayward.

And this season, we can't shoot which is the true problem.  Not lack of big production, not players coming back, shots are not falling.....

the open shots not falling is an issue. the taking poor pull up contested jump shots is probably the reason the open shots aren't falling... and it's caught up with us.

what's worse is we continue to encourage taking poor pull up contested jump shots.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: nickagneta on November 11, 2018, 01:46:55 PM
Quote
The only thing that's different from last year is Hayward.

And this season, we can't shoot which is the true problem.  Not lack of big production, not players coming back, shots are not falling.....

the open shots not falling is an issue. the taking poor pull up contested jump shots is probably the reason the open shots aren't falling... and it's caught up with us.

what's worse is we continue to encourage taking poor pull up contested jump shots.
The Celtics lead the league in wide open three pointers, no defender within 6 feet. They have been awful on those shots. Contested jumpers are not a problem. Missing wide open shots and layups are.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: PhoSita on November 11, 2018, 03:52:18 PM
Quote
The only thing that's different from last year is Hayward.

And this season, we can't shoot which is the true problem.  Not lack of big production, not players coming back, shots are not falling.....

the open shots not falling is an issue. the taking poor pull up contested jump shots is probably the reason the open shots aren't falling... and it's caught up with us.

what's worse is we continue to encourage taking poor pull up contested jump shots.
The Celtics lead the league in wide open three pointers, no defender within 6 feet. They have been awful on those shots. Contested jumpers are not a problem. Missing wide open shots and layups are.


Teams are real happy to let Gordon, Semi, Smart, Baynes have wide open threes.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: gouki88 on November 11, 2018, 04:04:11 PM
Quote
The only thing that's different from last year is Hayward.

And this season, we can't shoot which is the true problem.  Not lack of big production, not players coming back, shots are not falling.....

the open shots not falling is an issue. the taking poor pull up contested jump shots is probably the reason the open shots aren't falling... and it's caught up with us.

what's worse is we continue to encourage taking poor pull up contested jump shots.
The Celtics lead the league in wide open three pointers, no defender within 6 feet. They have been awful on those shots. Contested jumpers are not a problem. Missing wide open shots and layups are.


Teams are real happy to let Gordon, Semi, Smart, Baynes have wide open threes.
None of whom are in our top 5 for 3PA per game
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: Celtics4ever on November 11, 2018, 06:19:53 PM
Quote
the open shots not falling is an issue. the taking poor pull up contested jump shots is probably the reason the open shots aren't falling... and it's caught up with us.

I watch every game and this simply is not true.   We MISS OPEN SHOTS.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: gouki88 on November 11, 2018, 06:25:37 PM
Quote
the open shots not falling is an issue. the taking poor pull up contested jump shots is probably the reason the open shots aren't falling... and it's caught up with us.

I watch every game and this simply is not true.   We MISS OPEN SHOTS.
Yeah, we are simply cold. Periods like the first half against Phoenix are examples of that
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: ozgod on November 12, 2018, 01:15:45 AM
I think what needs to happen is this team needs to get blown out. Concede a 20 point lead in the 1st half and lose by 40. That will teach them that you can't always come back if you go down big and you need to be desperate from the opening tip off.
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: EthanHarris on November 12, 2018, 01:35:16 AM
Hayward has to play better. Without him, it will be hard to win games at the playoffs
Title: Re: Letís re-examine this team
Post by: ozgod on November 12, 2018, 01:54:36 AM
Hayward has to play better. Without him, it will be hard to win games at the playoffs

Lucky for us the playoffs aren't till April  :angel: