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Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: rollie mass on July 20, 2018, 06:37:53 AM

Title: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: rollie mass on July 20, 2018, 06:37:53 AM
The addition of Kawhi and subtraction of DeRozen may not sit well with Lowry and teammates having to deal with a player that doesn't want to be there.Then the aspect of playing at 100% effort on defense as well as offence.There may be conflict with fans who DeRozen cultivated with his desire and loyalty to Toronto.
The loss of a NBA front line coach.What is to motivate Kawhi -not pride .He didn't get back for playoffs .Will he jeopardize his going to LA with an injury or will he bow out at the first sprained ankle.
I believe this is a sideways move to get Kawli to LA and not waste a season of Lebrons  and a trade will go down with Toronto getting some young pieces and a draft choice.Toronto got themselves out of a bad contract and will start their rebuild.
If the Raptors envision him playing they better get him in Toronto while the weathers good.JOKE
Team chemistry is necessary to win a championship and that is a unlikely event with this trade.
Boston had a number one defense that will get better with Hayward and Jason getting stronger.We have in essence the same team back plus Wannamaker a taller reserve than Larkin.
Kawhi just sat out a whole season ,has stayed firm in his resolution about getting to LA is going to suffer huge taxes in Canada and a city on a lake not the Pacific Ocean is not going to cut it.
NO! NO! NO! this is good for Celtics unless there is a miracle. 
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: RockinRyA on July 20, 2018, 06:51:46 AM
They weren't going to challenge the Celtics before the thread. Now they potentially have a better chance. I say potentially because you don't know if Leonard is 100% or motivated enough. Their ceiling is better but their floor is lower than before the trade.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: GreenShooter on July 20, 2018, 07:00:26 AM
I'm not sure if "dealing with a player that doesn't want to be there" is a real thing. I think it's more like "dealing with a player that will go elsewhere once the season is over" is more like it but it's a common thing in the NBA right now. The fact that Kawhi is a top 5 player, or so, in the league and DeRozan is not makes Toronto a real threat.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: footey on July 20, 2018, 07:21:55 AM
I think a lot of people are sleeping on the Raptors. I fear them as a legitimate threat in the East to the Celtics. They won 59 games and have gotten Kawhi Freakin Leonard. I believe he is healthy and once he steps on the court will play hard. They are long, athletic and deep.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Green-18 on July 20, 2018, 07:31:03 AM
The Raptors are absolutely a threat as long as Kawhi is 100%.  I'm not banking on Kawhi being disgruntled for the entire reason.  He will step his game up once the playoffs arrive. 
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: ederson on July 20, 2018, 07:56:26 AM
Raptors replaced derozan with Leonard and celtics add
Hayward

Maybe I am biased but the celtics improve more than the raptors

In the off-season celtics the EC finalists add Kyrie Irving and Gordon Hayward....
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: JBcat on July 20, 2018, 08:31:55 AM
I think we are still the better team.

We are basically adding Hayward without giving up anyone.  Yes,  he is coming off a major injury but say 80% of Hayward probably beats the gap of adding Leonard and losing DeRozan especially factoring in Leonardís injury and motivation a huge question mark.

At age 32 Lowry had his lowest PPG in 5 years, and he seemed pretty inconsistent last year.  Maybe he stops being considered a star soon.  Meanwhile even though our PG is coming off surgery he is entering his prime and an elite PG in the league.

Toronto is a deep team with nice youth, but so arenít we but our youth has a much higher upside with Tatum and Brown on the verge of stardom.

Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: GreenShooter on July 20, 2018, 08:43:43 AM
We need to send a message to the Raptors this year as they've just about owned us the past couple of years, regardless of who was healthy and who wasn't. Different year but we need to put a beating on them or else Brad has to make some adjustments to how we play them. They blew us out 5 times the past 2 years and we haven't won in Toronto since I can't remember when.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: PAOBoston on July 20, 2018, 08:52:57 AM
Raptor threat is real. If Leonard is 100% healthy and engaged, they are right there with the Cs imo. They have the length and swing/wing players to matchup defensively vs the C's and the best overall player on both teams. I think they are legit (if Leonard is physically/mentally there). They are going to give Cs a run for their money imo.

Toronto is also desperate to get to finals so I would not be surprised to see them make another big move. They will try everything to convince Leonard to stay.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: cman88 on July 20, 2018, 08:58:40 AM
Talent wise, celtics are much better I would say.

not only do we add Hayward, but expect an improved Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown. The tatum in the beginning of the year is a total different player than the guy we saw after Kyrie got injured...and will be a total different player next year.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: pearljammer10 on July 20, 2018, 09:21:11 AM
New coach, less depth, less talent, uncertainty with Leonard.

Toronto was way overrated before. Leonard is a much better play than Derozan, but itís still not good enough in comparison to what we have.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: timpiker on July 20, 2018, 10:14:09 AM
I'm only worried about 1 thing - my team, the C's.  It ALL depends on our health.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: iadera on July 20, 2018, 10:23:02 AM
Threat??
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Monkhouse on July 20, 2018, 10:24:24 AM
Talent wise the Raptors don't hold a candle to our roster... Kawhi/Lowry/OG/Ibaka? Lol don't make me laugh.. If that is their definition of their Big 4, I'll be utterly amazed as Hayward, Tatum, Brown, Horford, Irving, Smart, and whoever else steps up manhandles their bench and their starting five.  :angel: :laugh: ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Donoghus on July 20, 2018, 10:34:36 AM
Well, they're either the biggest or second biggest challenger to Boston in the East right now.

However, unless injuries plague the Celtics again, I don't see TOR getting past the Celtics in the playoffs. If Kawhi gets back to 100%, they will have the best player in the series, though.  Which is always dangerous.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Smitty77 on July 20, 2018, 10:44:38 AM
New coach, less depth, less talent, uncertainty with Leonard.

Toronto was way overrated before. Leonard is a much better play than Derozan, but itís still not good enough in comparison to what we have.

And Poeltl is a MUCH BETTER player than Danny Green!!!  And Poeltl is 9 years younger.  Green is 31 and Poeltl is 22!!

People are underestimating this part of this trade!!!

I also don't KNOW that Kawhi is a much better play(er) than Derozan.  D is much better on offense IMHO and Kawhi is a much better defender, and that is ASSUMING that Leonard is healthy!!!

Smitty77
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: GreenShooter on July 20, 2018, 11:29:08 AM
Talent wise the Raptors don't hold a candle to our roster... Kawhi/Lowry/OG/Ibaka? Lol don't make me laugh.. If that is their definition of their Big 4, I'll be utterly amazed as Hayward, Tatum, Brown, Horford, Irving, Smart, and whoever else steps up manhandles their bench and their starting five.  :angel: :laugh: ::) ::) ::)
That Raptors team blew out the C's twice last year and I think 3 times the year before. Just sayin'. And they add Kawhi, who's the best player on the court between the 2 teams.  Maybe it was Dwayne Casey that had our number and not the players.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: GreenShooter on July 20, 2018, 11:41:18 AM
New coach, less depth, less talent, uncertainty with Leonard.

Toronto was way overrated before. Leonard is a much better play than Derozan, but itís still not good enough in comparison to what we have.

And Poeltl is a MUCH BETTER player than Danny Green!!!  And Poeltl is 9 years younger.  Green is 31 and Poeltl is 22!!

People are underestimating this part of this trade!!!

I also don't KNOW that Kawhi is a much better play(er) than Derozan.  D is much better on offense IMHO and Kawhi is a much better defender, and that is ASSUMING that Leonard is healthy!!!

Smitty77
If Kawhi doesn't get hurt 2 years ago in the playoffs the Spurs would have won that first game vs. GS. And who knows what happens after that. He's that much of a difference maker. It should be interesting season. I didn't want us just rolling through the EC. We need a good test before facing the loaded Warriors.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Moranis on July 20, 2018, 11:49:43 AM
New coach, less depth, less talent, uncertainty with Leonard.

Toronto was way overrated before. Leonard is a much better play than Derozan, but itís still not good enough in comparison to what we have.
they don't have less depth and they most certainly don't have less talent. 
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Smitty77 on July 20, 2018, 12:04:16 PM
New coach, less depth, less talent, uncertainty with Leonard.

Toronto was way overrated before. Leonard is a much better play than Derozan, but itís still not good enough in comparison to what we have.
they don't have less depth and they most certainly don't have less talent.

OG averaged 7.9 points and 2.1 rebounds in the playoffs!!  Serge averaged 8.7 points and 5.9 rebounds in the playoffs and shot 41.7%!!  Van Fleet shot 33.3% in the playoffs.  Maybe I am missing all the talent that they have beyond the newly acquired Kawhi (IF he is healthy)!!

Smitty77
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Monkhouse on July 20, 2018, 02:41:19 PM
Talent wise the Raptors don't hold a candle to our roster... Kawhi/Lowry/OG/Ibaka? Lol don't make me laugh.. If that is their definition of their Big 4, I'll be utterly amazed as Hayward, Tatum, Brown, Horford, Irving, Smart, and whoever else steps up manhandles their bench and their starting five.  :angel: :laugh: ::) ::) ::)
That Raptors team blew out the C's twice last year and I think 3 times the year before. Just sayin'. And they add Kawhi, who's the best player on the court between the 2 teams.  Maybe it was Dwayne Casey that had our number and not the players.

The Raptors also got swept by the Cavs. Sure, they do well in regular season, and some of those games, we were also missing our key defenders. I think one of the game, we definitely were missing someone.

We almost beat the Cavs, and if it weren't for some epic implosion and being frigidly cold, I think we could've taken that series.

Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Moranis on July 20, 2018, 02:42:57 PM
Talent wise the Raptors don't hold a candle to our roster... Kawhi/Lowry/OG/Ibaka? Lol don't make me laugh.. If that is their definition of their Big 4, I'll be utterly amazed as Hayward, Tatum, Brown, Horford, Irving, Smart, and whoever else steps up manhandles their bench and their starting five.  :angel: :laugh: ::) ::) ::)
That Raptors team blew out the C's twice last year and I think 3 times the year before. Just sayin'. And they add Kawhi, who's the best player on the court between the 2 teams.  Maybe it was Dwayne Casey that had our number and not the players.

The Raptors also got swept by the Cavs.

We almost beat the Cavs, and if it weren't for some epic implosion and being frigidly cold, I think we could've taken that series.

Just sayin'.
all about matchups.  the Cavs were just a terrible matchup for the Raptors given team makeup.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Monkhouse on July 20, 2018, 02:48:35 PM
Talent wise the Raptors don't hold a candle to our roster... Kawhi/Lowry/OG/Ibaka? Lol don't make me laugh.. If that is their definition of their Big 4, I'll be utterly amazed as Hayward, Tatum, Brown, Horford, Irving, Smart, and whoever else steps up manhandles their bench and their starting five.  :angel: :laugh: ::) ::) ::)
That Raptors team blew out the C's twice last year and I think 3 times the year before. Just sayin'. And they add Kawhi, who's the best player on the court between the 2 teams.  Maybe it was Dwayne Casey that had our number and not the players.

The Raptors also got swept by the Cavs.

We almost beat the Cavs, and if it weren't for some epic implosion and being frigidly cold, I think we could've taken that series.

Just sayin'.
all about matchups.  the Cavs were just a terrible matchup for the Raptors given team makeup.

Getting swept by any team in the playoffs except for Golden State, especially coming off the best regular season in franchise history is no excuse for 'matchups,' Moranis... Let's be real... DeRozan/Lowry are great players, but they aren't superstars. The Cavs really weren't that great of a team, it was just by the will of LeBron that they managed to beat us. Next year, I can confidently say we are way ahead of the Raptors, and I would relish the opportunity for us to face them next year just so we can curb stomp Kawhi back to LA.  ::) ::)
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Celtics4ever on July 20, 2018, 02:59:46 PM
Quote
Talent wise the Raptors don't hold a candle to our roster...
\

I think with the acquisition of Leonard they more than hold a candle to the Sixers, though.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: GratefulCs on July 20, 2018, 03:05:53 PM
Quote
Talent wise the Raptors don't hold a candle to our roster...
\

I think with the acquisition of Leonard they more than hold a candle to the Sixers, though.
i am so glad the 6ers couldnt get him

he's literally the perfect player for that team

Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: GratefulCs on July 20, 2018, 03:07:30 PM
Talent wise the Raptors don't hold a candle to our roster... Kawhi/Lowry/OG/Ibaka? Lol don't make me laugh.. If that is their definition of their Big 4, I'll be utterly amazed as Hayward, Tatum, Brown, Horford, Irving, Smart, and whoever else steps up manhandles their bench and their starting five.  :angel: :laugh: ::) ::) ::)
That Raptors team blew out the C's twice last year and I think 3 times the year before. Just sayin'. And they add Kawhi, who's the best player on the court between the 2 teams.  Maybe it was Dwayne Casey that had our number and not the players.

The Raptors also got swept by the Cavs.

We almost beat the Cavs, and if it weren't for some epic implosion and being frigidly cold, I think we could've taken that series.

Just sayin'.
all about matchups.  the Cavs were just a terrible matchup for the Raptors given team makeup.
i think they were scared of lebron as well as being a poor matchup

they might play a lot better this upcoming post season knowing they won't have to face lebaby
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Moranis on July 20, 2018, 04:02:02 PM
Talent wise the Raptors don't hold a candle to our roster... Kawhi/Lowry/OG/Ibaka? Lol don't make me laugh.. If that is their definition of their Big 4, I'll be utterly amazed as Hayward, Tatum, Brown, Horford, Irving, Smart, and whoever else steps up manhandles their bench and their starting five.  :angel: :laugh: ::) ::) ::)
That Raptors team blew out the C's twice last year and I think 3 times the year before. Just sayin'. And they add Kawhi, who's the best player on the court between the 2 teams.  Maybe it was Dwayne Casey that had our number and not the players.

The Raptors also got swept by the Cavs.

We almost beat the Cavs, and if it weren't for some epic implosion and being frigidly cold, I think we could've taken that series.

Just sayin'.
all about matchups.  the Cavs were just a terrible matchup for the Raptors given team makeup.

Getting swept by any team in the playoffs except for Golden State, especially coming off the best regular season in franchise history is no excuse for 'matchups,' Moranis... Let's be real... DeRozan/Lowry are great players, but they aren't superstars. The Cavs really weren't that great of a team, it was just by the will of LeBron that they managed to beat us. Next year, I can confidently say we are way ahead of the Raptors, and I would relish the opportunity for us to face them next year just so we can curb stomp Kawhi back to LA.  ::) ::)
I never said they were superstars, but their roster was not designed to stop James.  As evident by James rolling through them the last 3 seasons.  The Raptors were a much better team than the Pacers last year, and yet their Cavs series looked significantly different.  Why, because the Pacers were a difficult matchup for the Cavs, while the Raptors were not.  Matchups matter, especially in the playoffs. 

Kawhi Leonard brings an entirely different element to the Raptors.  He makes them significantly better, because he is without question a Superstar.  He was a top 3 MVP candidate in his last two full seasons.  He has multiple DPOY awards.  His value is significant.  Much more so then can be gleaned from him being x% better than DeRozan.  He is worth at least x times 2 to the Raptors. 

As I've said, I still expect Boston to come out of the East, but the Raptors are a significantly more difficult out with Leonard and Green then with DeRozan and Poeltl.  SIGNIFICANT.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: 86MaxwellSmart on July 20, 2018, 04:06:19 PM
Celtics in 6
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: keevsnick on July 20, 2018, 04:44:26 PM
New coach, less depth, less talent, uncertainty with Leonard.

Toronto was way overrated before. Leonard is a much better play than Derozan, but itís still not good enough in comparison to what we have.

And Poeltl is a MUCH BETTER player than Danny Green!!!  And Poeltl is 9 years younger.  Green is 31 and Poeltl is 22!!

People are underestimating this part of this trade!!!

I also don't KNOW that Kawhi is a much better play(er) than Derozan.  D is much better on offense IMHO and Kawhi is a much better defender, and that is ASSUMING that Leonard is healthy!!!

Smitty77

I think you can make a very good argument that Kawhi healthy at his best is actually a better offensive player than Demar. And the difference between one of the best ever defensive players and a well below average one is massive. They have a ton of depth and will challenge us for best defense. They are good, not as good as the C's but a worthy foe.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Ilikesports17 on July 20, 2018, 05:22:49 PM
This trade makes Toronto a real threat.

Their bench is still arguably the best in the NBA and now they have acquired an all-defense wing along with the best defensive player in the NBA without giving up much more than Demar Derozan.

They won 59 games and got a lot better.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: DooVoo on July 21, 2018, 01:47:53 AM
This trade makes Toronto a real threat.

Their bench is still arguably the best in the NBA and now they have acquired an all-defense wing along with the best defensive player in the NBA without giving up much more than Demar Derozan.

They won 59 games and got a lot better.

You act like DeRozan was a throw-in. He was a major reason they won 59 games. He has given them about 25ppg for the last three seasons. That is a lot of production they will have to replace. Lowry is their 2nd best scorer and he is clearly regressing and will be 32. That means Kawhi will have to be at least getting you 23-25ppg while also playing elite defense. All coming off a major injury and going to a place he doesn't want to be. That is a lot to ask.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: gouki88 on July 21, 2018, 03:49:07 AM
This trade makes Toronto a real threat.

Their bench is still arguably the best in the NBA and now they have acquired an all-defense wing along with the best defensive player in the NBA without giving up much more than Demar Derozan.

They won 59 games and got a lot better.

You act like DeRozan was a throw-in. He was a major reason they won 59 games. He has given them about 25ppg for the last three seasons. That is a lot of production they will have to replace. Lowry is their 2nd best scorer and he is clearly regressing and will be 32. That means Kawhi will have to be at least getting you 23-25ppg while also playing elite defense. All coming off a major injury and going to a place he doesn't want to be. That is a lot to ask.
Yeah, DeMar has been basically a 25/5/5 guy for a few years on the trot, and has played at least 74 games over all three of them. Plus, Jakob Poeltl was key for them, playing all 82 games during the regular season as their only real bench big. That's a big loss for them I think, as Jonas V and Ibaka both played under 30mpg
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Somebody on July 21, 2018, 04:49:38 AM
This trade makes Toronto a real threat.

Their bench is still arguably the best in the NBA and now they have acquired an all-defense wing along with the best defensive player in the NBA without giving up much more than Demar Derozan.

They won 59 games and got a lot better.

You act like DeRozan was a throw-in. He was a major reason they won 59 games. He has given them about 25ppg for the last three seasons. That is a lot of production they will have to replace. Lowry is their 2nd best scorer and he is clearly regressing and will be 32. That means Kawhi will have to be at least getting you 23-25ppg while also playing elite defense. All coming off a major injury and going to a place he doesn't want to be. That is a lot to ask.
Yeah, DeMar has been basically a 25/5/5 guy for a few years on the trot, and has played at least 74 games over all three of them. Plus, Jakob Poeltl was key for them, playing all 82 games during the regular season as their only real bench big. That's a big loss for them I think, as Jonas V and Ibaka both played under 30mpg
Poeltl the Turtle (RHYMES :laugh:) is a good bench big, but let's not pretend the Raptors don't have solid replacements for him. Siakam has showed promise at the 4/5 positions last season and will likely continue to improve, allowing the Raptors to mix and match Jonas/Ibaka/Siakam at the 5. That's pretty good to me imo, although the departure of the Turtle did make them a bit thinner at the 5.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: hodgy03038 on July 21, 2018, 07:31:30 AM
The team that had the most wins in the East last year replaced a very good offensive player with a player that is better at every basketball skill there is. They also added a veteran good defensive player that can hit 3s. I am more worried about Toronto than Philly or Milwaukee or Indiana or Washington.

I still think (barring any injuries) that we should be the favorite in the East but Toronto is going to be very good.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: gouki88 on July 21, 2018, 07:39:09 AM
This trade makes Toronto a real threat.

Their bench is still arguably the best in the NBA and now they have acquired an all-defense wing along with the best defensive player in the NBA without giving up much more than Demar Derozan.

They won 59 games and got a lot better.

You act like DeRozan was a throw-in. He was a major reason they won 59 games. He has given them about 25ppg for the last three seasons. That is a lot of production they will have to replace. Lowry is their 2nd best scorer and he is clearly regressing and will be 32. That means Kawhi will have to be at least getting you 23-25ppg while also playing elite defense. All coming off a major injury and going to a place he doesn't want to be. That is a lot to ask.
Yeah, DeMar has been basically a 25/5/5 guy for a few years on the trot, and has played at least 74 games over all three of them. Plus, Jakob Poeltl was key for them, playing all 82 games during the regular season as their only real bench big. That's a big loss for them I think, as Jonas V and Ibaka both played under 30mpg
Poeltl the Turtle (RHYMES :laugh:) is a good bench big, but let's not pretend the Raptors don't have solid replacements for him. Siakam has showed promise at the 4/5 positions last season and will likely continue to improve, allowing the Raptors to mix and match Jonas/Ibaka/Siakam at the 5. That's pretty good to me imo, although the departure of the Turtle did make them a bit thinner at the 5.
I guess it might not hurt with different coaches, as now JV might actually get back into the high 20's for MPG (was around 22mpg for '17-'18, which seems ridiculously low to me). We'll see, but I think depth wise he's being overlooked as a loss
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: jambr380 on July 21, 2018, 08:12:07 AM
This trade makes Toronto a real threat.

Their bench is still arguably the best in the NBA and now they have acquired an all-defense wing along with the best defensive player in the NBA without giving up much more than Demar Derozan.

They won 59 games and got a lot better.

You act like DeRozan was a throw-in. He was a major reason they won 59 games. He has given them about 25ppg for the last three seasons. That is a lot of production they will have to replace. Lowry is their 2nd best scorer and he is clearly regressing and will be 32. That means Kawhi will have to be at least getting you 23-25ppg while also playing elite defense. All coming off a major injury and going to a place he doesn't want to be. That is a lot to ask.

I imagine the injury thing should work itself out - we are all expecting 100% Hayward and Irving, after all - but the bolded is what really matters. Of course a fully engaged Kawhi, along with Toronto's other strong roster pieces, should be a real threat to the Cs, but that part is totally up in the air right now.

Have we ever seen a situation like this before? Kawhi was absolutely insisting that he go to one particular city and instead gets traded to a very cold one in a different country (note - I absolutely love Toronto and have spent months at a time there, but it is clearly a different place than LA). With only one year left on his contract, he barely has one foot in the door - is there any possible way he 'embraces' it? And this isn't like OKC/George where money and friendship kept George around. Kawhi really doesn't seem to care about that stuff.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Surferdad on July 21, 2018, 08:20:54 AM
This trade makes Toronto a real threat.

Their bench is still arguably the best in the NBA and now they have acquired an all-defense wing along with the best defensive player in the NBA without giving up much more than Demar Derozan.

They won 59 games and got a lot better.

You act like DeRozan was a throw-in. He was a major reason they won 59 games. He has given them about 25ppg for the last three seasons. That is a lot of production they will have to replace. Lowry is their 2nd best scorer and he is clearly regressing and will be 32. That means Kawhi will have to be at least getting you 23-25ppg while also playing elite defense. All coming off a major injury and going to a place he doesn't want to be. That is a lot to ask.

I imagine the injury thing should work itself out - we are all expecting 100% Hayward and Irving, after all - but the bolded is what really matters. Of course a fully engaged Kawhi, along with Toronto's other strong roster pieces, should be a real threat to the Cs, but that part is totally up in the air right now.

Have we ever seen a situation like this before? Kawhi was absolutely insisting that he go to one particular city and instead gets traded to a very cold one in a different country (note - I absolutely love Toronto and have spent months at a time there, but it is clearly a different place than LA). With only one year left on his contract, he barely has one foot in the door - is there any possible way he 'embraces' it? And this isn't like OKC/George where money and friendship kept George around. Kawhi really doesn't seem to care about that stuff.
Personally, I'm not assuming Kawhi will not be engaged or fully healed.  That makes Toronto a threat, just not as much of a threat as last year's Cavs.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: tazzmaniac on July 21, 2018, 08:29:57 AM
Quote
Talent wise the Raptors don't hold a candle to our roster...
\

I think with the acquisition of Leonard they more than hold a candle to the Sixers, though.
i am so glad the 6ers couldnt get him

he's literally the perfect player for that team
Before this nonsense with the Spurs, I would have agreed that Kawhi would have been perfect for the Sixers.  Not just from playing style but also from personality perspective.  With Embiid and Simmons, they don't need another big personality.  Now I'm not sure what to think of Kawhi.  Forcing yourself off the Kings or Hornets is one thing but off the Spurs. 
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: LatterDayCelticsfan on July 21, 2018, 10:50:36 AM
My concern is that a healthy Leonard is the sorta guy you want to throw at the likes of Tatum, Hayward and Brown.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: td450 on July 21, 2018, 11:28:55 AM
This trade makes Toronto a real threat.

Their bench is still arguably the best in the NBA and now they have acquired an all-defense wing along with the best defensive player in the NBA without giving up much more than Demar Derozan.

They won 59 games and got a lot better.

You act like DeRozan was a throw-in. He was a major reason they won 59 games. He has given them about 25ppg for the last three seasons. That is a lot of production they will have to replace. Lowry is their 2nd best scorer and he is clearly regressing and will be 32. That means Kawhi will have to be at least getting you 23-25ppg while also playing elite defense. All coming off a major injury and going to a place he doesn't want to be. That is a lot to ask.

I imagine the injury thing should work itself out - we are all expecting 100% Hayward and Irving, after all - but the bolded is what really matters. Of course a fully engaged Kawhi, along with Toronto's other strong roster pieces, should be a real threat to the Cs, but that part is totally up in the air right now.

Have we ever seen a situation like this before? Kawhi was absolutely insisting that he go to one particular city and instead gets traded to a very cold one in a different country (note - I absolutely love Toronto and have spent months at a time there, but it is clearly a different place than LA). With only one year left on his contract, he barely has one foot in the door - is there any possible way he 'embraces' it? And this isn't like OKC/George where money and friendship kept George around. Kawhi really doesn't seem to care about that stuff.
Personally, I'm not assuming Kawhi will not be engaged or fully healed.  That makes Toronto a threat, just not as much of a threat as last year's Cavs.

The catch 22 is that if he's completely fine, then his behavior is inexcusable, and he might cause more trouble going forward. If he's not fine, then he's not going to be the same player he was.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Pucaccia on July 21, 2018, 11:47:39 AM
No disrespect to Leonard, but I am not going to miss DeRozen torching us during the 4th quarter with those mid range shots.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: cman88 on July 21, 2018, 12:19:23 PM
My concern is that a healthy Leonard is the sorta guy you want to throw at the likes of Tatum, Hayward and Brown.

yeah, but at the same time he can only guard one of them at a time. I think the celtics will have too much talent/depth that will still overcome the raptors
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: SHAQATTACK on July 21, 2018, 12:38:31 PM
i like th C's chances


Tatum and Brown ...come back stronger and more mature experienced than ever.....

This closes the gap on An older Lowry and Kawhi

Hayward and Uncle Drew .....top the rest of their talent.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: colincb on July 21, 2018, 01:39:21 PM
A)  In regards to the OP, I think Raptors hope they can re-sign Leonard.

B) Raptors are the Cs top challenger in the East.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: KGs Knee on July 21, 2018, 01:47:47 PM
Sure, Toronto could be a threat. But there are a lot of "if's" that have to go right for them.

* If Kawhi is fully healthy

* If Kawhi buys into the team culture there

* If Nurse is capable of getting more from the rest of the team in the playoffs than Casey was

* If Anunoby and Siakam take a step forward in their progression

* If Ibaka doesn't become completely useless

* If Danny Green doesn't see further slippage in his game


So, sure, if most or all of these things work out in their favor, they could be a threat. My guess is it doesn't work out as they hope and Kawhi leaves next summer.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: rollie mass on July 21, 2018, 03:09:00 PM
A)  In regards to the OP, I think Raptors hope they can re-sign Leonard.

B) Raptors are the Cs top challenger in the East.

Letting him walk for nothing, along with giving away Jacob seems like a very risky bet.So unless DeRozens salary dump was a priority, Why would anybody trade for a player so committed to getting back to LA. I have read they are rolling the dice for a run at title but there are so many IF'S Are they hoping for the George  effect?
There must be a bailout scenario in place or a quick flip.
I have read too many conspiracy books but we are talking millions and millions of dollars and the direction of two franchises for years.This was a solid Toronto team coming back with another years experience and depth.
An all star that loved Toronto for a possible silent sullen unhappy player coming from sun belt and LA to out of the country to the cold North.
This smacks of a move for young kids and a pick
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Bobshot on July 21, 2018, 11:09:27 PM
I see the Toronto deal as pretty much of a standoff. That assumes Leonard is healthy. You give up a 25 ppg star for another star, you don't change very much.

On the other hand, the Celtics are a team that was one game away from the finals without Irving or Hayward. And they missed Hayward the whole season and Irving a good chunk of it.

The Celtics look like the Beast of the East.

Now if Philly had gotten Leonard without giving up Simmons or Embiid, it might have been a bit closer.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: saltlover on July 22, 2018, 12:17:32 AM
I see the Toronto deal as pretty much of a standoff. That assumes Leonard is healthy. You give up a 25 ppg star for another star, you don't change very much.

On the other hand, the Celtics are a team that was one game away from the finals without Irving or Hayward. And they missed Hayward the whole season and Irving a good chunk of it.

The Celtics look like the Beast of the East.

Now if Philly had gotten Leonard without giving up Simmons or Embiid, it might have been a bit closer.

Except one 25 point scorer was not very good at defense while the other is a two-time Defensive Player of the Year.  And one has a reputation for choking in the playoffs while the other is a Finals MVP.  Leonard really is considerably better than DeRozan.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: RockinRyA on July 22, 2018, 12:29:45 AM
I see the Toronto deal as pretty much of a standoff. That assumes Leonard is healthy. You give up a 25 ppg star for another star, you don't change very much.

On the other hand, the Celtics are a team that was one game away from the finals without Irving or Hayward. And they missed Hayward the whole season and Irving a good chunk of it.

The Celtics look like the Beast of the East.

Now if Philly had gotten Leonard without giving up Simmons or Embiid, it might have been a bit closer.

Except one 25 point scorer was not very good at defense while the other is a two-time Defensive Player of the Year.  And one has a reputation for choking in the playoffs while the other is a Finals MVP.  Leonard really is considerably better than DeRozan.

This.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: gouki88 on July 22, 2018, 03:53:38 AM
I see the Toronto deal as pretty much of a standoff. That assumes Leonard is healthy. You give up a 25 ppg star for another star, you don't change very much.

On the other hand, the Celtics are a team that was one game away from the finals without Irving or Hayward. And they missed Hayward the whole season and Irving a good chunk of it.

The Celtics look like the Beast of the East.

Now if Philly had gotten Leonard without giving up Simmons or Embiid, it might have been a bit closer.

Except one 25 point scorer was not very good at defense while the other is a two-time Defensive Player of the Year.  And one has a reputation for choking in the playoffs while the other is a Finals MVP.  Leonard really is considerably better than DeRozan.
Lol, TP. Spot on salt. Westbrook and LeBron both score 25-30 a night, so they have the same impact on winning, right?
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on July 22, 2018, 07:43:23 AM
I always felt like Leonard's legend was bigger than his actual play. He played one season as a top 5 player in the NBA. That one season broke one very important norm in his entire basketball career -- free throw rate. It spiked considerably. Most of the time, as a player's athleticism wanes so does his free throw rate.

I wonder, if he only averages 20 with less shot creation than DeRozan had and elite defense, will the narrative shift? Will it be blaming his athleticism, or bemoaning the player that was? Will the blame be on the system, or the coaching, or the teammates? Or will people recognize then what I'm saying now, Leonard is a good, not great or elite, offensive basketball player. He is in the same tier as Tobias Harris as an offensive basketball player, except for one year when his free throw rate spiked.

If there were negative TPs, I'm sure I'd get negged bad here, but I always thought Leonard was a more effective version of Gerald Wallace. He locks-in on defense more, but he also rebounds less. Leonard is a better scorer than Wallace, primarily because Leonard is a much better shooter.

That's a really good basketball player, but if you are willing to consider that, you also have to consider how Gerald Wallace fell off a cliff as his athleticism waned. Leonard's fall won't be that bad because of shooting and mentality, but I don't think he has the dribbling, feel, or moves to a first option on a playoff team.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Green-18 on July 22, 2018, 08:11:42 AM
I always felt like Leonard's legend was bigger than his actual play. He played one season as a top 5 player in the NBA. That one season broke one very important norm in his entire basketball career -- free throw rate. It spiked considerably. Most of the time, as a player's athleticism wanes so does his free throw rate.

I wonder, if he only averages 20 with less shot creation than DeRozan had and elite defense, will the narrative shift? Will it be blaming his athleticism, or bemoaning the player that was? Will the blame be on the system, or the coaching, or the teammates? Or will people recognize then what I'm saying now, Leonard is a good, not great or elite, offensive basketball player. He is in the same tier as Tobias Harris as an offensive basketball player, except for one year when his free throw rate spiked.

If there were negative TPs, I'm sure I'd get negged bad here, but I always thought Leonard was a more effective version of Gerald Wallace. He locks-in on defense more, but he also rebounds less. Leonard is a better scorer than Wallace, primarily because Leonard is a much better shooter.

That's a really good basketball player, but if you are willing to consider that, you also have to consider how Gerald Wallace fell off a cliff as his athleticism waned. Leonard's fall won't be that bad because of shooting and mentality, but I don't think he has the dribbling, feel, or moves to a first option on a playoff team.

Valid points but I think you went a bit too far in the other direction.  If a healthy Kawhi isn't good enough to be first option on a playoff team then I would argue it's more a reflection of the current NBA landscape.  His playoff efficiency didn't suffer at all in two seasons as the #1 option for San Antonio.  LeBron and Durant are probably the only two players who can maintain high volume and efficiency against any opponent in the playoffs.  Even James Harden shows far more inconsistency than Leonard. 

If anything I think it's fair to say that the media overrated his impact as a singular defender.  That's not to say that he isn't the best perimeter defender in the NBA.  However, Kevin Durant absolutely destroyed the Spurs in his last year with OKC.  I absolutely hate the narrative that Kawhi can negate the #1 option on the opposing team.  It's as if the other four players on his team don't exist.  Not to mention that offenses are much more versatile these days.

A 100% healthy Leonard is a top 5 player in the NBA.  We can easily find flaws in KD, Curry, Harden, Davis etc.  LeBron is the only player who can steamroll opponents regardless of the cast around him.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: rollie mass on July 22, 2018, 08:44:24 AM
TP from me-I have not watched enough of Kawhi to judge him but winning a championship needs commitment from a whole team.Kawhi has played in Pops system only and will have to suffer the backlash of DeRozens betrayal by managment.His tune of going to LA will reverberate and resonate during the adjustment period.
Will he jeopardize his health at the defensive end? -defense takes commitment and hurts.
Will the press with it's prodding be conducive to trying to sell him on Montreal?Will his quiet demeanor be considered sullen and simmer in locker room?
Will he force a panic sale to LA?
This move is Machiavellian, in that in ends in a rebuild,the moving of a large contract and may end at some point with a trade for youth and a draft pick is my take.
Will Kawhi  play for Pop at USA mini camp to prove he is healthy?
Will he pass a physical?
He has been out a year -how much rust and loss of drive  is there?

The firing of Casey and shipping out DeRozen and hiring his assistant will that sit well with players ,press and fans.We have all witnessed what great coaching can do or not do.

Millions are on the line,the direction of two franchises and the League.So there must be contingency plans and communications with other GM's in case
A Montreal GM is known to be conservative and he breaks up a winning squad with Lebron gone for a rental.
That is crazy and if they are not crazy it must be misdirection.

Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Surferdad on July 22, 2018, 09:04:58 AM
...
He has been out a year -how much rust and loss of drive  is there?

...
I see this as the biggest question of all.  Nothing can replace playing against NBA-level competition is real games.  It's a game of split-second decisions and it will take 15-20 games minimum to get "up to speed" again.  Then add in his recovery.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: celticsclay on July 22, 2018, 12:31:02 PM
I see the Toronto deal as pretty much of a standoff. That assumes Leonard is healthy. You give up a 25 ppg star for another star, you don't change very much.

On the other hand, the Celtics are a team that was one game away from the finals without Irving or Hayward. And they missed Hayward the whole season and Irving a good chunk of it.

The Celtics look like the Beast of the East.

Now if Philly had gotten Leonard without giving up Simmons or Embiid, it might have been a bit closer.

Except one 25 point scorer was not very good at defense while the other is a two-time Defensive Player of the Year.  And one has a reputation for choking in the playoffs while the other is a Finals MVP.  Leonard really is considerably better than DeRozan.
Lol, TP. Spot on salt. Westbrook and LeBron both score 25-30 a night, so they have the same impact on winning, right?

Before Leonard got zaza'd I thought he was the best player in the league. If he is healthy and engaged Toronto will be a monster
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: gpap on July 22, 2018, 02:08:18 PM
I just don't see it with Toronto. I really don't. They've continuously melted in the playoffs and I don't see this Kawhi experiment working. Too many variables such as his health and questionable desire to play in Toronto, when he clearly knows he'll be gone in a year.

I get Toronto trying to swing for the fences and trying to shake things up, but ultimately I don't think this ends up working.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: Moranis on July 22, 2018, 06:18:26 PM
I always felt like Leonard's legend was bigger than his actual play. He played one season as a top 5 player in the NBA. That one season broke one very important norm in his entire basketball career -- free throw rate. It spiked considerably. Most of the time, as a player's athleticism wanes so does his free throw rate.

I wonder, if he only averages 20 with less shot creation than DeRozan had and elite defense, will the narrative shift? Will it be blaming his athleticism, or bemoaning the player that was? Will the blame be on the system, or the coaching, or the teammates? Or will people recognize then what I'm saying now, Leonard is a good, not great or elite, offensive basketball player. He is in the same tier as Tobias Harris as an offensive basketball player, except for one year when his free throw rate spiked.

If there were negative TPs, I'm sure I'd get negged bad here, but I always thought Leonard was a more effective version of Gerald Wallace. He locks-in on defense more, but he also rebounds less. Leonard is a better scorer than Wallace, primarily because Leonard is a much better shooter.

That's a really good basketball player, but if you are willing to consider that, you also have to consider how Gerald Wallace fell off a cliff as his athleticism waned. Leonard's fall won't be that bad because of shooting and mentality, but I don't think he has the dribbling, feel, or moves to a first option on a playoff team.
Kawhi finished 2nd and 3rd in MVP voting in consecutive seasons landing on the 1st Team All NBA both of those years.  The season before that he finished 10th though didn't land on an All NBA Team though was Finals MVP.  He won DPOY twice and finished 3rd in those same 3 seasons and of course was 1st Team All Defense all 3 years (4 full seasons ago he was on the 2nd Team All Defense). 

I don't get this idea that Kawhi had 1 high level season.  He had at least 2 where every metric placed him as a top 5 player in the league.   He just turned 27 so theoretically is just entering his absolute prime years. 
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: csfansince60s on July 22, 2018, 06:48:43 PM
The addition of Kawhi and subtraction of DeRozen may not sit well with Lowry and teammates having to deal with a player that doesn't want to be there.Then the aspect of playing at 100% effort on defense as well as offence.There may be conflict with fans who DeRozen cultivated with his desire and loyalty to Toronto.
The loss of a NBA front line coach.What is to motivate Kawhi -not pride .He didn't get back for playoffs .Will he jeopardize his going to LA with an injury or will he bow out at the first sprained ankle.
I believe this is a sideways move to get Kawli to LA and not waste a season of Lebrons  and a trade will go down with Toronto getting some young pieces and a draft choice.Toronto got themselves out of a bad contract and will start their rebuild.
If the Raptors envision him playing they better get him in Toronto while the weathers good.JOKE
Team chemistry is necessary to win a championship and that is a unlikely event with this trade.
Boston had a number one defense that will get better with Hayward and Jason getting stronger.We have in essence the same team back plus Wannamaker a taller reserve than Larkin.
Kawhi just sat out a whole season ,has stayed firm in his resolution about getting to LA is going to suffer huge taxes in Canada and a city on a lake not the Pacific Ocean is not going to cut it.
NO! NO! NO! this is good for Celtics unless there is a miracle.


I think the highlighted are rollie's major points, i.e that the Toronto threat to the Cs is via the Fakers with a deal for Kawhi to be with Bron Bron already in place: something like Deng/Ingram and either Kuzma or Hart for Kawhi. Not that the Raps will be a threat to us in the East.

TP to the OP, even though  it's hard to tease out his main message sometime.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: wiley on July 22, 2018, 07:01:39 PM
Leonard to Lakers in a trade makes the most sense for Leonard.

It makes the most sense for Lebron/Lakers

And it makes the most sense for the Raptors


Of the three above we just have to wait and see if the Raptors get the memo...
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: droopdog7 on July 22, 2018, 07:08:40 PM
Too many people dismissing the raptors on this thread.  Are they a legitimate threat to make it out of the east?  Absolutely.  Iíd say the Celtics should be favored but not by a lot.  The raptors had the best bench in the league last year and were the number 1 seed going in.  They are very likely better this year.
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: KungPoweChicken on July 22, 2018, 08:19:18 PM
There does not seem to be that much incentive for the Lakers to trade for Leonard. Why give up Ingram, Kuzma, and either ball/hart for Leonard when they can keep that young core and simply add Leonard next season?
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: gouki88 on July 22, 2018, 09:06:31 PM
I see the Toronto deal as pretty much of a standoff. That assumes Leonard is healthy. You give up a 25 ppg star for another star, you don't change very much.

On the other hand, the Celtics are a team that was one game away from the finals without Irving or Hayward. And they missed Hayward the whole season and Irving a good chunk of it.

The Celtics look like the Beast of the East.

Now if Philly had gotten Leonard without giving up Simmons or Embiid, it might have been a bit closer.

Except one 25 point scorer was not very good at defense while the other is a two-time Defensive Player of the Year.  And one has a reputation for choking in the playoffs while the other is a Finals MVP.  Leonard really is considerably better than DeRozan.
Lol, TP. Spot on salt. Westbrook and LeBron both score 25-30 a night, so they have the same impact on winning, right?

Before Leonard got zaza'd I thought he was the best player in the league. If he is healthy and engaged Toronto will be a monster
I was right there with you. They had a legit chance at beating GSW behind Kawhi
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: csfansince60s on July 22, 2018, 09:33:57 PM
There does not seem to be that much incentive for the Lakers to trade for Leonard. Why give up Ingram, Kuzma, and either ball/hart for Leonard when they can keep that young core and simply add Leonard next season?

Tick tock, tick tock on Bron Bron. The currently assembled Fakers cannot beat the Warriors. To burn one of four of Bron Bron's years on an empty quest (read non-title contention) doesn't make a lot of sense.

Leonard and Bron Bron, along with that veteran band of misfits could beat the Warriors in a seven game series, irrespective of losing Ingram and Kuzma or Ball or Hart.

Hey, they're the Fakers. They just have to wiggle their fake, plastic tinsel-town-ass, and free agents come a runnin'. They don't need picks and young players. They want results now.



Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: jambr380 on July 22, 2018, 09:41:19 PM
There does not seem to be that much incentive for the Lakers to trade for Leonard. Why give up Ingram, Kuzma, and either ball/hart for Leonard when they can keep that young core and simply add Leonard next season?

There was this:

Quote
"The Lakers are not Kawhi's preferred destination anymore," Wright said. "He wants to go to the Clippers. Because he doesn't want to go and be second fiddle to LeBron. That's what I was told. I was told by somebody that would know. So right now the Clippers are where he wants to go.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2784708-lakers-trade-rumors-kawhi-leonard-prefers-clippers-to-joining-lebron-james (https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2784708-lakers-trade-rumors-kawhi-leonard-prefers-clippers-to-joining-lebron-james)

I mean, it is pretty speculative. Nobody really knows what Kawhi wants (we do know that he does NOT want the Raptors). If the Lakers want the best opportunity to sign him, it would be in their best interest to trade for him. Also, as csfansince60s said above, the Lakers are going nowhere fast with their current roster. Adding Kawhi to Lebron and company could have a significant impact on who the Cs face in the Finals  ;D
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: hodgy03038 on July 23, 2018, 07:57:07 AM
I don't think anyone knows what Kawhi wants because he doesn't speak.
(https://juststickers.in/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/mute.png)
Title: Re: Toronto as a threat to Celtics
Post by: csfansince60s on July 23, 2018, 04:16:00 PM
I don't think anyone knows what Kawhi wants because he doesn't speak.
(https://juststickers.in/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/mute.png)

Or play even when healthy apparently.