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Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: celticsclay on January 16, 2018, 12:45:31 PM

Title: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 16, 2018, 12:45:31 PM
http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22117829/multiple-cleveland-cavaliers-players-acknowledge-growing-discontent-concern-current-state-team

This is great stuff to watch. "Several prominent players, speaking on condition of anonymity to ESPN, Cleveland.com and The Athletic, expressed doubt that the problems -- an aging roster, defensively challenged personnel and a glut of redundant role players -- could simply be worked out through patience and a chance to coalesce when fully healthy."

Also same article, Lue on Thomas:

"I just want him to take the shots that are given to him," said Cavs coach Tyronn Lue. "Not forcing shots, but if someone, whoever is on the team that can shoot the basketball, if they're open 21 times, then take your shots. It's not about the amount of shots, it's the amount of good shots. If they're your shots then you've got to be ready to take them."
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticinorlando on January 16, 2018, 12:51:56 PM
Thomas does not fit in Cleveland. His game, nor his attitude. Would not be surprised if he is shipped out. Plus IT looks slow and runs with a shuffle. He is not even close to the same guy. If he isn't traded, I think at some point in the future he gets shutdown for surgery

Cavs are an old, tired, ill constructed team full of aging players that all do the same thing. They are slow and do not play defense at all.

Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: Donoghus on January 16, 2018, 12:54:49 PM
You can't count out that team as long as they have Lebron.  Especially in a flawed Eastern Conference.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 16, 2018, 12:59:30 PM
I wouldn't count them out either but this really is starting to feel like a "creaking toward a disappointing finish full of infighting and LeBron subtly mailing it in when it counts" kinda deal. Which historically has been a bit of a specialty of LeBron's.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticinorlando on January 16, 2018, 01:00:40 PM
This Cavs team is constructed exactly like the 2010 Cavs team that featured old Vets James hand picked (Jamison, Shaq, Anthony Parker, Mo Williams)

Heard the same kind of stuff all year with that group and in the end LBJ quit and left town

The Cavs are not the same without Kyrie. Period.

Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: Vox_Populi on January 16, 2018, 01:03:05 PM
A whole bunch of stuff came out this morning. Here's another from Joe Vardon of Cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2018/01/cavaliers_players_wondering_if.html):

Quote
"Rotations are awful. IT (Isaiah Thomas) is so much worse than Kyrie (Irving) defensively it's insane," said a league source. "There is not a great feeling anywhere. They need to limp into the All-Star break and get away from each other."
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticsclay on January 16, 2018, 01:04:59 PM
Wow now Windhorst is piling on saying the Cavs could learn from the Spurs in how they handled Aldridge's trade request. One you see Lebron's personal fan biographer bashing the front office of Cleveland its pretty clear to me Lebron won't be sticking around (more than anything else i have seen or read)

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22110844/how-cleveland-cavaliers-san-antonio-spurs-handled-trade-demands-worlds-apart
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticsclay on January 16, 2018, 01:08:24 PM
A whole bunch of stuff came out this morning. Here's another from Joe Vardon of Cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2018/01/cavaliers_players_wondering_if.html):

Quote
"Rotations are awful. IT (Isaiah Thomas) is so much worse than Kyrie (Irving) defensively it's insane," said a league source. "There is not a great feeling anywhere. They need to limp into the All-Star break and get away from each other."

Some nuggets on Thomas from this article: "In the meantime, Thomas continues to struggle to shoot as he works his way back from seven months off due to hip injuries.

Thomas was 8-of-21 shooting against the Warriors and finished with 19 points. Thomas again mentioned the Cavs "don't practice" -- an apparent shot at the organization considering the number of times he's mentioned it over the past several days. He's continually cited a lack of practice as the reason he's playing his way into shape.

Thomas put up the most shots of any Cavs player on Monday, and his teammates said it is his role to shoot. But at the same time, their patience is being tested as the losses mount and the rhythm they had at both ends of the court when they won 18 of 19 games is gone."
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: jackpercussion on January 16, 2018, 01:10:28 PM
They are just noticing that Thomas is worse than Irving?  Really?  The Cavs have some terrible scouts.  If they didn't know that Thomas was a terrible defensive player last year when healthy, than they were in for a rude awakening.   Smart covered for many of his shortcomings.  However, the Cavs do not have a "Smart" on their team.  Good luck Cavs.  HaHa
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticinorlando on January 16, 2018, 01:14:13 PM
If you do not allow Thomas to be a volume shooter while he is on the court, he is pointless being out there. Boston made it work because he was the go to guy.

Thomas is not the go to guy in Cleveland. James is not going to defer to him.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 16, 2018, 01:14:29 PM
They are just noticing that Thomas is worse than Irving?  Really?  The Cavs have some terrible scouts.  If they didn't know that Thomas was a terrible defensive player last year when healthy, than they were in for a rude awakening.   Smart covered for many of his shortcomings.  However, the Cavs do not have a "Smart" on their team.  Good luck Cavs.  HaHa

Remember the Cavs don't just have IT out there trying to play D, they have IT with a surgically repaired hip, working his way into game shape and possibly overly focused on his next contract out there trying to play D. We also based much of our defensive schemes on covering up for IT; schemes that don't do that will leave him exposed far more often.

Basically however bad he was for us last year he's very likely even worse this year.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 16, 2018, 01:23:10 PM
Can the Cavs TRADE IT and Crowder at mid season ? 

maybe trade Smith , Crowder , IT , TT ,  Shump .....some combo of these players and their 2018 own pick .

They are not going to pay IT anywhere near whatbhe is dreaming of .....he is net zero gain on the court ...what he scores on offense , he can't jump or sprint like he used to.....so he gets destroyed by taller jump shooters ......IMO .....he is no help ....Warrior shot right over him like he was not even there.  IT can't help Cavs beat Warriors ....plain and simple he is a liability on defense.  Warriors have long tall jump shooters that can get their shot over IT any moment they need to.  KD , Livingston, Swaggy ,  Iggy , not to mention Curry and Thompson .....IT. can't stop anybody they got.

I'd trade IT .....he will be the same problem f ....what to do issue with him as he was with Celtics come contract time.  If Lebron leaves , you don't waste max money on IT or build arou d him.....they should trade him now for a somebody that can alter shots on defense.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: Valid on January 16, 2018, 01:29:05 PM
They are just noticing that Thomas is worse than Irving?  Really?  The Cavs have some terrible scouts.  If they didn't know that Thomas was a terrible defensive player last year when healthy, than they were in for a rude awakening.   Smart covered for many of his shortcomings.  However, the Cavs do not have a "Smart" on their team.  Good luck Cavs.  HaHa
Except he's not worse than Irving. He's just not nearly as healthy, and there is a good chance we will never see the same IT ever again.

The Cavaliers' defense isn't bad because of Isaiah Thomas. He has barely even played this year. Their defense is bad because they don't have a single elite defensive player on their roster. Having Thomas in the starting lineup certainly doesn't help, but there is no other point guard in the league who could turn Cleveland into even a mediocre defensive ballclub, let alone one that can seriously challenge Golden State in the finals.

Replace IT with Kyrie on that team, and its defense is still 29th in the league.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 16, 2018, 01:29:20 PM
Can the Cavs TRADE IT and Crowder at mid season ? 

maybe trade Smith , Crowder , IT , TT ,  Shump .....some combo of these players and their 2018 own pick .

They are not going to pay IT anywhere near whatbhe is dreaming of .....he is net zero gain .....what he scores on offense , he can't jump or sprint like he used to.....so he gets destroyed by taller jump shooters ......IMO .....he is no help ....Warrior shot right over him like he was not even there.

I'd trade IT .....he will be the same problem f ....what to do issue with him as he was with Celtics come contract time.  If Lebron leaves , you don't waste max money on IT or build arou d him.....they should trade him.
The players you mention, are all playing well below their potential and due to factors like contracts wont fetch nearly equivalent talent in a trade.

You have to hope the Crowder and Thompson get their act together and that IT shakes this rust off and returns to form. I think you could afford to trade Crowder, Thompson or JR, but trading IT will almost certainly drive down your total talent level.

If they want to get better the assets going out the door will be the Brooklyn pick and Cedi Osman.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 16, 2018, 01:30:50 PM
They are just noticing that Thomas is worse than Irving?  Really?  The Cavs have some terrible scouts.  If they didn't know that Thomas was a terrible defensive player last year when healthy, than they were in for a rude awakening.   Smart covered for many of his shortcomings.  However, the Cavs do not have a "Smart" on their team.  Good luck Cavs.  HaHa
Except he's not worse than Irving. He's just not nearly as healthy, and there is a good chance we will never see the same IT ever again.

The Cavaliers' defense isn't bad because of Isaiah Thomas. He has barely even played this year. Their defense is bad because they don't have a single elite defensive player on their roster. Having Thomas in the starting lineup certainly doesn't help, but there is no other point guard in the league who could turn Cleveland into even a mediocre defensive ballclub, let alone one that can seriously challenge Golden State in the finals.

Replace IT with Kyrie on that team, and its defense is still 29th in the league.
Irving is way better than Thomas on defense. Really dont think that is too too controversial of an opinion.

last year the Cavs defense finished 21st in the league.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 16, 2018, 01:34:04 PM
AB could really really make an impact on defense.  and the team i. terms of embrassing the rest of the Cavs ...when they see how hard he works .....it sets a tone for everybody else.

AB would change the dynamics of Caves defense .   Crowder might play harder if AB was on the team ...IT is just a liability for the Cavs main weaknes defense .  Cavs don't need scoring ....ITs role ..they need lock down defense stoppers.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: RodyTur10 on January 16, 2018, 01:38:42 PM
AB could really really make an impact on defense.  and the team i. terms of embrassing the rest of the Cavs ...when they see how hard he works .....it sets a tone for everybody else.

AB would change the dynamics of Caves defense .   Crowder might play harder if AB was on the team ...IT is just a liability for the Cavs main weaknes defense .  Cavs don't need scoring ....ITs role ..they need lock down defense stoppers.

If Thomas would get traded for Bradley, that would be very ironic. Even if they thought it would be a good move, they wouldn't do it since it makes the Irving trade look worse.

But I agree with you. Cleveland doesn't need more star power or primary scoring options. They need a supporting cast that consists of reliable shooters and players who can hold their own defensively against Curry, Thompson and Durant.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: johnnygreen on January 16, 2018, 01:38:44 PM
I'm not sure how fair it is to single out Isaiah for being a poor defender. Their age as a whole, is contributing to their lack of defensive effort. If each man can't seem to defend their own guy, then what made anyone think they could provide help defense for Isaiah's man?
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticsclay on January 16, 2018, 01:41:42 PM
AB could really really make an impact on defense.  and the team i. terms of embrassing the rest of the Cavs ...when they see how hard he works .....it sets a tone for everybody else.

AB would change the dynamics of Caves defense .   Crowder might play harder if AB was on the team ...IT is just a liability for the Cavs main weaknes defense .  Cavs don't need scoring ....ITs role ..they need lock down defense stoppers.

If Thomas would get traded for Bradley, that would be very ironic. Even if they thought it would be a good move, they wouldn't do it since it makes the Irving trade look worse.

But I agree with you. Cleveland doesn't need more star power or primary scoring options. They need a supporting cast that consists of reliable shooters and players who can hold their own defensively against Curry, Thompson and Durant.

Bradley for IT would instantly make them a lot better.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: blink on January 16, 2018, 01:45:45 PM
AB could really really make an impact on defense.  and the team i. terms of embrassing the rest of the Cavs ...when they see how hard he works .....it sets a tone for everybody else.

AB would change the dynamics of Caves defense .   Crowder might play harder if AB was on the team ...IT is just a liability for the Cavs main weaknes defense .  Cavs don't need scoring ....ITs role ..they need lock down defense stoppers.

If Thomas would get traded for Bradley, that would be very ironic. Even if they thought it would be a good move, they wouldn't do it since it makes the Irving trade look worse.

But I agree with you. Cleveland doesn't need more star power or primary scoring options. They need a supporting cast that consists of reliable shooters and players who can hold their own defensively against Curry, Thompson and Durant.

Bradley for IT would instantly make them a lot better.

Yes it would.  I don't want that to happen anytime soon.  There is a chance that Bradley would spark other players to giving better effort, but I am not sure.

Plus I would have to root against my fav ex-celtic (currently playing) when we beat the cavs in the playoffs.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 16, 2018, 01:47:13 PM
Lebron needs defensive help , not scoring .   

Two younger intense defensive players like Bradley would help right the ship.

To get players like this ,  teams may demand picks as well as players.

Cavs second string played good .....cause IT is not on it .   
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: blink on January 16, 2018, 01:47:25 PM
They are just noticing that Thomas is worse than Irving?  Really?  The Cavs have some terrible scouts.  If they didn't know that Thomas was a terrible defensive player last year when healthy, than they were in for a rude awakening.   Smart covered for many of his shortcomings.  However, the Cavs do not have a "Smart" on their team.  Good luck Cavs.  HaHa
Except he's not worse than Irving. He's just not nearly as healthy, and there is a good chance we will never see the same IT ever again.

The Cavaliers' defense isn't bad because of Isaiah Thomas. He has barely even played this year. Their defense is bad because they don't have a single elite defensive player on their roster. Having Thomas in the starting lineup certainly doesn't help, but there is no other point guard in the league who could turn Cleveland into even a mediocre defensive ballclub, let alone one that can seriously challenge Golden State in the finals.

Replace IT with Kyrie on that team, and its defense is still 29th in the league.

I don't agree with the bolded part at all.  Lebron is still a great defender.  I am not sure how often he brings his A-game defensively during the regular season, but he is still a great defender.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 16, 2018, 01:48:36 PM
AB could really really make an impact on defense.  and the team i. terms of embrassing the rest of the Cavs ...when they see how hard he works .....it sets a tone for everybody else.

AB would change the dynamics of Caves defense .   Crowder might play harder if AB was on the team ...IT is just a liability for the Cavs main weaknes defense .  Cavs don't need scoring ....ITs role ..they need lock down defense stoppers.

If Thomas would get traded for Bradley, that would be very ironic. Even if they thought it would be a good move, they wouldn't do it since it makes the Irving trade look worse.

But I agree with you. Cleveland doesn't need more star power or primary scoring options. They need a supporting cast that consists of reliable shooters and players who can hold their own defensively against Curry, Thompson and Durant.

Bradley for IT would instantly make them a lot better.

Yes it would.  I don't want that to happen anytime soon.  There is a chance that Bradley would spark other players to giving better effort, but I am not sure.

Plus I would have to root against my fav ex-celtic (currently playing) when we beat the cavs in the playoffs.
probably worth noting that AB is currently underwelming in Detroit. Once again, the Pistons are better defensively when he is off the floor and they have a better w/l record in games he misses.

This is consistent with his last few years here. Defensive and impact stats are noisy and crappy, but I think AB is hugely overrated as a defensive player. He cant switch, he's bad off ball and he hurts your team size badly because he cant play the 1 or guard most 2s.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: spikelovetheCelts on January 16, 2018, 01:49:10 PM
I read a post on Kings Chat room that George Hill is a done deal to the Cavs. I think it would be a good move by the Cavs. The Kings also have other vets. I know the Cavs will make a move and i don't see why the Kings would not at least listen. The major problem is the Cavs don't have a good GM to make one happen. IMO.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticinorlando on January 16, 2018, 01:52:41 PM
It is amazing how little the Cavs get out of 2 major pieces of that trade. Jae Crowder is a token starter but never plays during the big boy minutes

Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: blink on January 16, 2018, 01:53:16 PM
Lebron needs defensive help , not scoring .   

Two younger intense defensive players like Bradley would help right the ship.

To get players like this ,  teams may demand picks as well as players.

Cavs second string played good .....cause IT is not on it .

The first game IT came back he was playing on the 2nd team, and their 2nd unit was playing really well.  I honestly think it would be better for the Cavs to have IT be a spark plug bench player than starting.  He isn't healthy yet.  Moving him in as a starter seems to have upset their team chemistry for whatever reason.

Watching them yesterday, Wade has really done well coming off the bench this year, he doesn't have to log the minutes as a starter and he still is pretty effective.  I don't know why a 2nd team IT / Wade back court couldn't work.  I think IT on the 2nd team lowers his def liability and playing with a larger guard Wade could help.

Either way, until clev starts actually trying hard on def they are going to continue to lose more games.  Good for us, lets hope they don't ever decide to actually put effort in on d. haha
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: Eric_Suede on January 16, 2018, 01:55:15 PM
Haven't the Cavs gone through these "slumps" for the last 3 years in a row where people fall for it and actually question "are the cavs falling apart" for it all to come together in the playoffs? Until the Cavs get knocked out of the Playoffs , it think it's silly to even entertain convos like this.

This is like those reports talking about talking about the turmoil in the locker room with the Patriots. I take all this with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: blink on January 16, 2018, 01:58:31 PM
AB could really really make an impact on defense.  and the team i. terms of embrassing the rest of the Cavs ...when they see how hard he works .....it sets a tone for everybody else.

AB would change the dynamics of Caves defense .   Crowder might play harder if AB was on the team ...IT is just a liability for the Cavs main weaknes defense .  Cavs don't need scoring ....ITs role ..they need lock down defense stoppers.

If Thomas would get traded for Bradley, that would be very ironic. Even if they thought it would be a good move, they wouldn't do it since it makes the Irving trade look worse.

But I agree with you. Cleveland doesn't need more star power or primary scoring options. They need a supporting cast that consists of reliable shooters and players who can hold their own defensively against Curry, Thompson and Durant.

Bradley for IT would instantly make them a lot better.

Yes it would.  I don't want that to happen anytime soon.  There is a chance that Bradley would spark other players to giving better effort, but I am not sure.

Plus I would have to root against my fav ex-celtic (currently playing) when we beat the cavs in the playoffs.
probably worth noting that AB is currently underwelming in Detroit. Once again, the Pistons are better defensively when he is off the floor and they have a better w/l record in games he misses.

This is consistent with his last few years here. Defensive and impact stats are noisy and crappy, but I think AB is hugely overrated as a defensive player. He cant switch, he's bad off ball and he hurts your team size badly because he cant play the 1 or guard most 2s.

Well I did say "I don't know" if Bradley would make them better on D.  I wasn't really speaking about advanced def stats honestly, more just the eye test.  I don't think AB is HUGELY overrated as a defender.  He gives great effort, and still is a great on ball defender.  He is better than anyone the Cavs can currently throw at Curry.

The other players for Clev other than Lebron need to just raise their level of intensity and effort on D.  Maybe they can't? Maybe they are all too old, and this is the only gear they have.  I hope so.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticinorlando on January 16, 2018, 01:59:30 PM
Haven't the Cavs gone through these "slumps" for the last 3 years in a row where people fall for it and actually question "are the cavs falling apart" for it all to come together in the playoffs? Until the Cavs get knocked out of the Playoffs , it think it's silly to even entertain convos like this.

You must not remember the Cavs pre James to Miami. And this time they do not have Kyrie...who is showing to have done a lot more for that team. This time the entire team is old.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: jpotter33 on January 16, 2018, 01:59:30 PM
A whole bunch of stuff came out this morning. Here's another from Joe Vardon of Cleveland.com (http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2018/01/cavaliers_players_wondering_if.html):

Quote
"Rotations are awful. IT (Isaiah Thomas) is so much worse than Kyrie (Irving) defensively it's insane," said a league source. "There is not a great feeling anywhere. They need to limp into the All-Star break and get away from each other."

Some nuggets on Thomas from this article: "In the meantime, Thomas continues to struggle to shoot as he works his way back from seven months off due to hip injuries.

Thomas was 8-of-21 shooting against the Warriors and finished with 19 points. Thomas again mentioned the Cavs "don't practice" -- an apparent shot at the organization considering the number of times he's mentioned it over the past several days. He's continually cited a lack of practice as the reason he's playing his way into shape.

Thomas put up the most shots of any Cavs player on Monday, and his teammates said it is his role to shoot. But at the same time, their patience is being tested as the losses mount and the rhythm they had at both ends of the court when they won 18 of 19 games is gone."


Lol that organization is such a ****show. It makes you appreciate how good we have it here with Boston.

Also, it's looking more and more like those "agenda" comments were in fact aimed at IT and his shot selection and decision-making, which has been a constant source of discussion around the league since then.

EDIT: And I should clarify that I don't really blame IT for this either. He's out there for his offensive prowess, not anything else, so I don't understand why this would come as a surprise to anyone. On a team like Cleveland especially, I think IT would be best served as a scoring sparkplug off the bench and at the end of games where he wouldn't have to worry about sharing the ball as much as he'll need to with Lebron and Love.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticinorlando on January 16, 2018, 02:02:41 PM
There is a reason IT pines for Stevens and the C's at every turn. He knew what he had here. He knew how he was going to be used.

Cavs are not a good fit for him. Having him on the floor with JAMES, Love, Smith and crowder is pointless because the entire line up just stands at the 3 point line waiting to chuck 3s. Kyrie drives and breaks defenses down. IT really does not do that well now that he is beat up
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticsclay on January 16, 2018, 02:03:44 PM
Haven't the Cavs gone through these "slumps" for the last 3 years in a row where people fall for it and actually question "are the cavs falling apart" for it all to come together in the playoffs? Until the Cavs get knocked out of the Playoffs , it think it's silly to even entertain convos like this.

This is like those reports talking about talking about the turmoil in the locker room with the Patriots. I take all this with a grain of salt.

As others have pointed out. The Cavs have never finished lower than 2nd with Lebron. They are in 3rd. They are currently much closer to falling to 5th than they are of getting up to 2nd. Again this has never happened with one of the Lebron teams in Cleveland. Also, they no longer have their second best player in Irving. I don't really get how a basketball fan just ignores these pretty significant development and trots out the "in the past" argument. Doesn't make a lot of sense. 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticsclay on January 16, 2018, 02:06:25 PM
They are just noticing that Thomas is worse than Irving?  Really?  The Cavs have some terrible scouts.  If they didn't know that Thomas was a terrible defensive player last year when healthy, than they were in for a rude awakening.   Smart covered for many of his shortcomings.  However, the Cavs do not have a "Smart" on their team.  Good luck Cavs.  HaHa
Except he's not worse than Irving. He's just not nearly as healthy, and there is a good chance we will never see the same IT ever again.

The Cavaliers' defense isn't bad because of Isaiah Thomas. He has barely even played this year. Their defense is bad because they don't have a single elite defensive player on their roster. Having Thomas in the starting lineup certainly doesn't help, but there is no other point guard in the league who could turn Cleveland into even a mediocre defensive ballclub, let alone one that can seriously challenge Golden State in the finals.

Replace IT with Kyrie on that team, and its defense is still 29th in the league.

I don't agree with the bolded part at all.  Lebron is still a great defender.  I am not sure how often he brings his A-game defensively during the regular season, but he is still a great defender.

Lebron was 24th in all defensive voting last year and is now a year older and slower. I would say he can definitely be a good defensive player for short spurts, but he really can't be elite over the course of a game. I am not sure he will get a single vote this year.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: rocknrollforyoursoul on January 16, 2018, 02:09:00 PM
AB could really really make an impact on defense.  and the team i. terms of embrassing the rest of the Cavs ...when they see how hard he works .....it sets a tone for everybody else.

AB would change the dynamics of Caves defense .   Crowder might play harder if AB was on the team ...IT is just a liability for the Cavs main weaknes defense .  Cavs don't need scoring ....ITs role ..they need lock down defense stoppers.

If Thomas would get traded for Bradley, that would be very ironic. Even if they thought it would be a good move, they wouldn't do it since it makes the Irving trade look worse.

But I agree with you. Cleveland doesn't need more star power or primary scoring options. They need a supporting cast that consists of reliable shooters and players who can hold their own defensively against Curry, Thompson and Durant.

And who aren't ancient in NBA terms.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticinorlando on January 16, 2018, 02:09:53 PM
The Cavs are horrible on the road this season. Of all the teams in the East they need home court. If they finish third and have to play the Raptors in round two...that will be tough. I am not sure they win that series.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticsclay on January 16, 2018, 02:13:03 PM
The Cavs are horrible on the road this season. Of all the teams in the East they need home court. If they finish third and have to play the Raptors in round two...that will be tough. I am not sure they win that series.
Road records: Boston 16-5
Toronto: 14-10
Cleveland 11-12

Yea I think homecourt is pretty important to them...
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: Donoghus on January 16, 2018, 02:20:49 PM
The Cavs are horrible on the road this season. Of all the teams in the East they need home court. If they finish third and have to play the Raptors in round two...that will be tough. I am not sure they win that series.
Road records: Boston 16-5
Toronto: 14-10
Cleveland 11-12

Yea I think homecourt is pretty important to them...

Albeit, a shortened season but the '11-12 Celtics (another seemingly "flip the switch" team) was a sub .500 15-18  on the road that year.  Still got themselves in a position where they almost made the finals.

I have a tough time burying teams like that until they are actually dead.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticsclay on January 16, 2018, 02:37:07 PM
The Cavs are horrible on the road this season. Of all the teams in the East they need home court. If they finish third and have to play the Raptors in round two...that will be tough. I am not sure they win that series.
Road records: Boston 16-5
Toronto: 14-10
Cleveland 11-12

Yea I think homecourt is pretty important to them...

Albeit, a shortened season but the '11-12 Celtics (another seemingly "flip the switch" team) was a sub .500 15-18  on the road that year.  Still got themselves in a position where they almost made the finals.

I have a tough time burying teams like that until they are actually dead.

This is a fairly weak argument, and I say that as someone that loved that team a lot. However, they made the ECF largely because the number 1 seed bulls got decimated by injuries to both Noah and Rose and we got to play the 8th seeded 76ers in the second round. That team consisted of Holiday, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes and Iggy. If the Cavs get to play some very weak team due to injuries, sure, they could win. However, them playing Washington, Toronto and Cleveland in 3 consecutive rounds would be a far cry from our 2012 matchups with Hawks and Philly...
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: Moranis on January 16, 2018, 02:48:53 PM
There are going to be lots of potential players available.  I mean the Hawks have already said Belinelli and Illyasova are both available for a 2nd round pick (and no long term salary).  The Magic are aggressively looking to move Fournier, Hezonja, and Payton.  The available players are only going to increase as the season wears on.  Not all of those players would obviously help Cleveland, but there will be players available that absolutely could help the Cavs.

For example, maybe Atlanta is willing to move Bazemore.  He, would plug a lot of Cleveland's holes as he is a legitimate starting SG that is a + defender and respectable shooter.  Not sure either team does it, but Smith + BKN for Bazemore makes a lot of sense for both teams.  Obviously other players could be added as necessary (Dedmon seems like a player the Cavs could use). 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: Donoghus on January 16, 2018, 02:51:40 PM
The Cavs are horrible on the road this season. Of all the teams in the East they need home court. If they finish third and have to play the Raptors in round two...that will be tough. I am not sure they win that series.
Road records: Boston 16-5
Toronto: 14-10
Cleveland 11-12

Yea I think homecourt is pretty important to them...

Albeit, a shortened season but the '11-12 Celtics (another seemingly "flip the switch" team) was a sub .500 15-18  on the road that year.  Still got themselves in a position where they almost made the finals.

I have a tough time burying teams like that until they are actually dead.

This is a fairly weak argument, and I say that as someone that loved that team a lot. However, they made the ECF largely because the number 1 seed bulls got decimated by injuries to both Noah and Rose and we got to play the 8th seeded 76ers in the second round. That team consisted of Holiday, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes and Iggy. If the Cavs get to play some very weak team due to injuries, sure, they could win. However, them playing Washington, Toronto and Cleveland in 3 consecutive rounds would be a far cry from our 2012 matchups with Hawks and Philly...

I don't think a veteran laden team like that is terribly concerned about home court advantage.  Much rather, being healthy and not overworked in the regular season.

It's Jan 16.  Much too early to be throwing dirt on that team.  Especially when they still have the best player in the world playing for them.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticsclay on January 16, 2018, 02:52:49 PM
There are going to be lots of potential players available.  I mean the Hawks have already said Belinelli and Illyasova are both available for a 2nd round pick (and no long term salary).  The Magic are aggressively looking to move Fournier, Hezonja, and Payton.  The available players are only going to increase as the season wears on.  Not all of those players would obviously help Cleveland, but there will be players available that absolutely could help the Cavs.

For example, maybe Atlanta is willing to move Bazemore.  He, would plug a lot of Cleveland's holes as he is a legitimate starting SG that is a + defender and respectable shooter.  Not sure either team does it, but Smith + BKN for Bazemore makes a lot of sense for both teams.  Obviously other players could be added as necessary (Dedmon seems like a player the Cavs could use).

I think the Cleveland fan forum would light itself on fire if Bazemore was the main get from the Lottery pick. I would be so beyond thrilled if that somehow happened.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticsclay on January 16, 2018, 02:54:23 PM
The Cavs are horrible on the road this season. Of all the teams in the East they need home court. If they finish third and have to play the Raptors in round two...that will be tough. I am not sure they win that series.
Road records: Boston 16-5
Toronto: 14-10
Cleveland 11-12

Yea I think homecourt is pretty important to them...

Albeit, a shortened season but the '11-12 Celtics (another seemingly "flip the switch" team) was a sub .500 15-18  on the road that year.  Still got themselves in a position where they almost made the finals.

I have a tough time burying teams like that until they are actually dead.

This is a fairly weak argument, and I say that as someone that loved that team a lot. However, they made the ECF largely because the number 1 seed bulls got decimated by injuries to both Noah and Rose and we got to play the 8th seeded 76ers in the second round. That team consisted of Holiday, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes and Iggy. If the Cavs get to play some very weak team due to injuries, sure, they could win. However, them playing Washington, Toronto and Cleveland in 3 consecutive rounds would be a far cry from our 2012 matchups with Hawks and Philly...

I don't think a veteran laden team like that is terribly concerned about home court advantage.  Much rather, being healthy and not overworked in the regular season.

It's Jan 16.  Much too early to be throwing dirt on that team.  Especially when they still have the best player in the world playing for them.

I think Durant is currently a better player than Lebron for what it's worth. Also, if they are not terribly concerned why has their been a new story every day this week about how upset the players are on their team with the losing, rotations and agendas. They clearly care, and clearly cared a lot last night.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: RockinRyA on January 16, 2018, 02:55:58 PM
The Cavs are horrible on the road this season. Of all the teams in the East they need home court. If they finish third and have to play the Raptors in round two...that will be tough. I am not sure they win that series.
Road records: Boston 16-5
Toronto: 14-10
Cleveland 11-12

Yea I think homecourt is pretty important to them...

Albeit, a shortened season but the '11-12 Celtics (another seemingly "flip the switch" team) was a sub .500 15-18  on the road that year.  Still got themselves in a position where they almost made the finals.

I have a tough time burying teams like that until they are actually dead.

This is a fairly weak argument, and I say that as someone that loved that team a lot. However, they made the ECF largely because the number 1 seed bulls got decimated by injuries to both Noah and Rose and we got to play the 8th seeded 76ers in the second round. That team consisted of Holiday, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes and Iggy. If the Cavs get to play some very weak team due to injuries, sure, they could win. However, them playing Washington, Toronto and Cleveland in 3 consecutive rounds would be a far cry from our 2012 matchups with Hawks and Philly...

I don't think a veteran laden team like that is terribly concerned about home court advantage.  Much rather, being healthy and not overworked in the regular season.

It's Jan 16.  Much too early to be throwing dirt on that team.  Especially when they still have the best player in the world playing for them.

Sure. They have Lebron, they have the experience and yes its early. But I wouldn't go dismissing  all their problems like posters have. They are real concerns, and it looks like they lost a bit of their mystique. The intimidation factor is gone.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: wayupnorth on January 16, 2018, 02:58:12 PM
There are going to be lots of potential players available.  I mean the Hawks have already said Belinelli and Illyasova are both available for a 2nd round pick (and no long term salary).  The Magic are aggressively looking to move Fournier, Hezonja, and Payton.  The available players are only going to increase as the season wears on.  Not all of those players would obviously help Cleveland, but there will be players available that absolutely could help the Cavs.

For example, maybe Atlanta is willing to move Bazemore.  He, would plug a lot of Cleveland's holes as he is a legitimate starting SG that is a + defender and respectable shooter.  Not sure either team does it, but Smith + BKN for Bazemore makes a lot of sense for both teams.  Obviously other players could be added as necessary (Dedmon seems like a player the Cavs could use).

I think the Cleveland fan forum would light itself on fire if Bazemore was the main get from the Lottery pick. I would be so beyond thrilled if that somehow happened.

Truth
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: Moranis on January 16, 2018, 03:04:02 PM
There are going to be lots of potential players available.  I mean the Hawks have already said Belinelli and Illyasova are both available for a 2nd round pick (and no long term salary).  The Magic are aggressively looking to move Fournier, Hezonja, and Payton.  The available players are only going to increase as the season wears on.  Not all of those players would obviously help Cleveland, but there will be players available that absolutely could help the Cavs.

For example, maybe Atlanta is willing to move Bazemore.  He, would plug a lot of Cleveland's holes as he is a legitimate starting SG that is a + defender and respectable shooter.  Not sure either team does it, but Smith + BKN for Bazemore makes a lot of sense for both teams.  Obviously other players could be added as necessary (Dedmon seems like a player the Cavs could use).

I think the Cleveland fan forum would light itself on fire if Bazemore was the main get from the Lottery pick. I would be so beyond thrilled if that somehow happened.
Maybe depends on how Bazemore looks for the Cavs and what he does for them, but this isn't a bad trade for Cleveland in a vacuum, especially with the BKN pick looking like 8-10 rather than 1-3.  Irving and Smith for Thomas, Bazemore, Crowder, Zizic, 2nd rounder is a fairly even trade all things being considered. May be they just add Frye and Dedmon to the trade making it a little more palatable to Cleveland.

Cavs would have to feel pretty good about their playoff chances if they rolled in with this team

PG - Thomas, Calderon, Rose
SG - Bazemore, Wade, Shumpert
SF - James, Green, Korver, Osman
PF - Love, Crowder
C - Thompson, Dedmon, Zizic

That team should easily come out of the east, and if they ever get Crowder figured out defensively might be able to realistically challenge the Warriors (though I would expect GS to still win).  The reality is the Cavs badly need someone like Bazemore.  He would just make their whole team better because SG is by far their weakest spot and the spot they could most use a 3-D type player (Bazemore is more talented than a regular 3-D player, but that is his basic skill set). 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: CelticsElite on January 16, 2018, 03:05:49 PM
Does anyone rational actually think they can compete? Theyíre worse than last year and last year were killed in the finals
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: Donoghus on January 16, 2018, 03:06:14 PM
The Cavs are horrible on the road this season. Of all the teams in the East they need home court. If they finish third and have to play the Raptors in round two...that will be tough. I am not sure they win that series.
Road records: Boston 16-5
Toronto: 14-10
Cleveland 11-12

Yea I think homecourt is pretty important to them...

Albeit, a shortened season but the '11-12 Celtics (another seemingly "flip the switch" team) was a sub .500 15-18  on the road that year.  Still got themselves in a position where they almost made the finals.

I have a tough time burying teams like that until they are actually dead.

This is a fairly weak argument, and I say that as someone that loved that team a lot. However, they made the ECF largely because the number 1 seed bulls got decimated by injuries to both Noah and Rose and we got to play the 8th seeded 76ers in the second round. That team consisted of Holiday, Thad Young, Spencer Hawes and Iggy. If the Cavs get to play some very weak team due to injuries, sure, they could win. However, them playing Washington, Toronto and Cleveland in 3 consecutive rounds would be a far cry from our 2012 matchups with Hawks and Philly...

I don't think a veteran laden team like that is terribly concerned about home court advantage.  Much rather, being healthy and not overworked in the regular season.

It's Jan 16.  Much too early to be throwing dirt on that team.  Especially when they still have the best player in the world playing for them.

Sure. They have Lebron, they have the experience and yes its early. But I wouldn't go dismissing  all their problems like posters have. They are real concerns, and it looks like they lost a bit of their mystique. The intimidation factor is gone.

Oh, for sure.  Where there is smoke, there's probably fire.  I certainly don't like its shangri-la over there these days. 

However, given today's date & recent history, I think there is still plenty of time for them to figure things out.  Much like the Pats, I can't kill that team until they're good and dead.

I wouldn't be dismissive of them as a Celtics fan.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: Donoghus on January 16, 2018, 03:06:51 PM
Does anyone rational actually think they can compete? Theyíre worse than last year and last year were killed in the finals

In the Finals?  Not really.

In the East?  For sure.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticsclay on January 16, 2018, 03:07:45 PM
There are going to be lots of potential players available.  I mean the Hawks have already said Belinelli and Illyasova are both available for a 2nd round pick (and no long term salary).  The Magic are aggressively looking to move Fournier, Hezonja, and Payton.  The available players are only going to increase as the season wears on.  Not all of those players would obviously help Cleveland, but there will be players available that absolutely could help the Cavs.

For example, maybe Atlanta is willing to move Bazemore.  He, would plug a lot of Cleveland's holes as he is a legitimate starting SG that is a + defender and respectable shooter.  Not sure either team does it, but Smith + BKN for Bazemore makes a lot of sense for both teams.  Obviously other players could be added as necessary (Dedmon seems like a player the Cavs could use).

I think the Cleveland fan forum would light itself on fire if Bazemore was the main get from the Lottery pick. I would be so beyond thrilled if that somehow happened.
Maybe depends on how Bazemore looks for the Cavs and what he does for them, but this isn't a bad trade for Cleveland in a vacuum, especially with the BKN pick looking like 8-10 rather than 1-3.  Irving and Smith for Thomas, Bazemore, Crowder, Zizic, 2nd rounder is a fairly even trade all things being considered. May be they just add Frye and Dedmon to the trade making it a little more palatable to Cleveland.

Cavs would have to feel pretty good about their playoff chances if they rolled in with this team

PG - Thomas, Calderon, Rose
SG - Bazemore, Wade, Shumpert
SF - James, Green, Korver, Osman
PF - Love, Crowder
C - Thompson, Dedmon, Zizic

That team should easily come out of the east, and if they ever get Crowder figured out defensively might be able to realistically challenge the Warriors (though I would expect GS to still win).  The reality is the Cavs badly need someone like Bazemore.  He would just make their whole team better because SG is by far their weakest spot and the spot they could most use a 3-D type player (Bazemore is more talented than a regular 3-D player, but that is his basic skill set).

I don't even know where to begin with this. I am absolutely fascinated by the fact that you think Bazemore moves the needle for them at all and they could trade the 8th pick in the draft for him.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: indeedproceed on January 16, 2018, 03:12:53 PM
I would be willing to forsake all my fathers day gifts if Cleveland panic-trades IT for pennies on the dollar at the deadline and he rounds into shape soon after. Still pulling for the little guy and feeling like we kinda used him up and discarded him.
Title: The Cavs Aren't Very Good This Year
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on January 16, 2018, 03:21:44 PM
www.treytalkssports.com/2018/01/16/the-cavs-just-arent-very-good/

After starting the season 5-7, the Cavs went on a massive 19-2 streak that spawned comments like, ďAre the Cavs starting to figure it out?Ē and ďAre the Cavs better without Kyrie?Ē After that, they fell back to earth with a 2-8 losing streak. Whatís their problem? Are they having an up-and-down year? Are they struggling to incorporate new guys? Are they good? Are they more the 7-15 team from before and after their streak, or the 19-2 team during their streak?

Was the 19-2 stretch gold or foolís gold? Letís sink our teeth into the streak to find out.

During that 21 game stretch, only 6 of the games were against current playoff teams and they were 4-2 in those games.

I repeat. During a 21 game stretch, they played 15 non-playoff teams and 6 playoff teams. They were 4-2 against playoff teams.

The 4 wins against playoff teams were the Clippers (sans Gallinari, Beverly, and Teodosic), the Pistons (hardly a powerhouse), the Heat (James was thrown out in this game), and the Wizards.

None of those wins were against top 4 teams in their conference.

In fact, the Cavs donít have many good wins at all this season. Of their 26 wins, only 10 were against current playoff teams. Other than the four I listed above, they have wins against the Celtics (Hayward injury game that the Celtics almost stole away), the Bucks 2x (both games were pre-Bledsoe, but have lost one against them with Bledsoe), the Wizards 2x (decent wins against a slightly overrated team), and the Pacers (but have a 1-2 record against the Pacers on the year).

The other 16 wins were against the Bulls (3x), Hawks (2x), Charlotte (2x), Philadelphia (2x), Grizzles, Sacramento, Mavs, Knicks, Brooklyn, Los Angeles, and Utah. The average record of those teams is 16-27, or about a .370 winning percentage.

The Cavs record so far this year is foolís gold. The hardest part of their schedule is coming up. Lebron is playing way too hard in regular season minutes.

The Cavs just arenít very good.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: Erik on January 16, 2018, 03:24:07 PM
Thomas doesn't fit well on the Cavs roster. This is the result of an amateur GM that saw top PG for top PG and made the good on paper trade. Thomas needs to be the man offensively and he needs a fantastic defensive scheme built around hiding his weaknesses with everyone buying in. The Cavs don't have talented enough coaching or the type of players willing to learn new tricks and put egos aside to win ball games. I knew it would be a train wreck before even played. Anyone that saw Marcus Smart essentially following IT around on the court at all times switching the bad matchups knows that without that type of scheme and player there, he is going to revert to the old IT.
Title: Re: The Cavs Aren't Very Good This Year
Post by: celticsclay on January 16, 2018, 03:26:20 PM
www.treytalkssports.com/2018/01/16/the-cavs-just-arent-very-good/

After starting the season 5-7, the Cavs went on a massive 19-2 streak that spawned comments like, ďAre the Cavs starting to figure it out?Ē and ďAre the Cavs better without Kyrie?Ē After that, they fell back to earth with a 2-8 losing streak. Whatís their problem? Are they having an up-and-down year? Are they struggling to incorporate new guys? Are they good? Are they more the 7-15 team from before and after their streak, or the 19-2 team during their streak?

Was the 19-2 stretch gold or foolís gold? Letís sink our teeth into the streak to find out.

During that 21 game stretch, only 6 of the games were against current playoff teams and they were 4-2 in those games.

I repeat. During a 21 game stretch, they played 15 non-playoff teams and 6 playoff teams. They were 4-2 against playoff teams.

The 4 wins against playoff teams were the Clippers (sans Gallinari, Beverly, and Teodosic), the Pistons (hardly a powerhouse), the Heat (James was thrown out in this game), and the Wizards.

None of those wins were against top 4 teams in their conference.

In fact, the Cavs donít have many good wins at all this season. Of their 26 wins, only 10 were against current playoff teams. Other than the four I listed above, they have wins against the Celtics (Hayward injury game that the Celtics almost stole away), the Bucks 2x (both games were pre-Bledsoe, but have lost one against them with Bledsoe), the Wizards 2x (decent wins against a slightly overrated team), and the Pacers (but have a 1-2 record against the Pacers on the year).

The other 16 wins were against the Bulls (3x), Hawks (2x), Charlotte (2x), Philadelphia (2x), Grizzles, Sacramento, Mavs, Knicks, Brooklyn, Los Angeles, and Utah. The average record of those teams is 16-27, or about a .370 winning percentage.

The Cavs record so far this year is foolís gold. The hardest part of their schedule is coming up. Lebron is playing way too hard in regular season minutes.

The Cavs just arenít very good.

Yea interesting to dig into how big a fool's gold that streak was...
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: sed522002 on January 16, 2018, 03:31:56 PM
If true, Wade and Love have some NERVE to complain about anyoneís defense.

Quote
@IAmJamesStewart

Supposedly, LeBron and Kevin Love went to the media along with Wade and complained about how bad Isaiah was defensively. They complained about everyone but they keyed on Isaiah a lot.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: RodyTur10 on January 16, 2018, 03:34:31 PM
Essentially Cleveland needs a new starting PG (Thomas doesn't fit, Rose is a shell of himself), SG (Smith and Shumpert are garbage, Wade is better from the bench) and C (Love is a PF and Thompson plays awful).

It's time for them to make big moves. Trade the Nets pick. Trade Thomas and Crowder. Get rid of Smith, Shumpert and Thompson. Maybe even put Love on the block.

But even if they keep the same group together, I won't count them out. They've too much quality players and experience. I do believe that we have come a step closer.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: jpotter33 on January 16, 2018, 03:56:56 PM
There are going to be lots of potential players available.  I mean the Hawks have already said Belinelli and Illyasova are both available for a 2nd round pick (and no long term salary).  The Magic are aggressively looking to move Fournier, Hezonja, and Payton.  The available players are only going to increase as the season wears on.  Not all of those players would obviously help Cleveland, but there will be players available that absolutely could help the Cavs.

For example, maybe Atlanta is willing to move Bazemore.  He, would plug a lot of Cleveland's holes as he is a legitimate starting SG that is a + defender and respectable shooter.  Not sure either team does it, but Smith + BKN for Bazemore makes a lot of sense for both teams.  Obviously other players could be added as necessary (Dedmon seems like a player the Cavs could use).

I think the Cleveland fan forum would light itself on fire if Bazemore was the main get from the Lottery pick. I would be so beyond thrilled if that somehow happened.
Maybe depends on how Bazemore looks for the Cavs and what he does for them, but this isn't a bad trade for Cleveland in a vacuum, especially with the BKN pick looking like 8-10 rather than 1-3.  Irving and Smith for Thomas, Bazemore, Crowder, Zizic, 2nd rounder is a fairly even trade all things being considered. May be they just add Frye and Dedmon to the trade making it a little more palatable to Cleveland.

Cavs would have to feel pretty good about their playoff chances if they rolled in with this team

PG - Thomas, Calderon, Rose
SG - Bazemore, Wade, Shumpert
SF - James, Green, Korver, Osman
PF - Love, Crowder
C - Thompson, Dedmon, Zizic

That team should easily come out of the east, and if they ever get Crowder figured out defensively might be able to realistically challenge the Warriors (though I would expect GS to still win).  The reality is the Cavs badly need someone like Bazemore.  He would just make their whole team better because SG is by far their weakest spot and the spot they could most use a 3-D type player (Bazemore is more talented than a regular 3-D player, but that is his basic skill set).

I don't even know where to begin with this. I am absolutely fascinated by the fact that you think Bazemore moves the needle for them at all and they could trade the 8th pick in the draft for him.

Lol I'm finding this pretty comical myself. You'd think this was FeartheSword with the type of Cavs homerism exhibited here.
Title: Re: The Cavs Aren't Very Good This Year
Post by: jpotter33 on January 16, 2018, 03:59:30 PM
www.treytalkssports.com/2018/01/16/the-cavs-just-arent-very-good/

After starting the season 5-7, the Cavs went on a massive 19-2 streak that spawned comments like, ďAre the Cavs starting to figure it out?Ē and ďAre the Cavs better without Kyrie?Ē After that, they fell back to earth with a 2-8 losing streak. Whatís their problem? Are they having an up-and-down year? Are they struggling to incorporate new guys? Are they good? Are they more the 7-15 team from before and after their streak, or the 19-2 team during their streak?

Was the 19-2 stretch gold or foolís gold? Letís sink our teeth into the streak to find out.

During that 21 game stretch, only 6 of the games were against current playoff teams and they were 4-2 in those games.

I repeat. During a 21 game stretch, they played 15 non-playoff teams and 6 playoff teams. They were 4-2 against playoff teams.


The 4 wins against playoff teams were the Clippers (sans Gallinari, Beverly, and Teodosic), the Pistons (hardly a powerhouse), the Heat (James was thrown out in this game), and the Wizards.

None of those wins were against top 4 teams in their conference.

In fact, the Cavs donít have many good wins at all this season. Of their 26 wins, only 10 were against current playoff teams. Other than the four I listed above, they have wins against the Celtics (Hayward injury game that the Celtics almost stole away), the Bucks 2x (both games were pre-Bledsoe, but have lost one against them with Bledsoe), the Wizards 2x (decent wins against a slightly overrated team), and the Pacers (but have a 1-2 record against the Pacers on the year).

The other 16 wins were against the Bulls (3x), Hawks (2x), Charlotte (2x), Philadelphia (2x), Grizzles, Sacramento, Mavs, Knicks, Brooklyn, Los Angeles, and Utah. The average record of those teams is 16-27, or about a .370 winning percentage.

The Cavs record so far this year is foolís gold. The hardest part of their schedule is coming up. Lebron is playing way too hard in regular season minutes.

The Cavs just arenít very good.

TP. I was beating this same drum throughout their winning streak when people were going overboard with it without considering the context.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: Moranis on January 16, 2018, 04:25:20 PM
There are going to be lots of potential players available.  I mean the Hawks have already said Belinelli and Illyasova are both available for a 2nd round pick (and no long term salary).  The Magic are aggressively looking to move Fournier, Hezonja, and Payton.  The available players are only going to increase as the season wears on.  Not all of those players would obviously help Cleveland, but there will be players available that absolutely could help the Cavs.

For example, maybe Atlanta is willing to move Bazemore.  He, would plug a lot of Cleveland's holes as he is a legitimate starting SG that is a + defender and respectable shooter.  Not sure either team does it, but Smith + BKN for Bazemore makes a lot of sense for both teams.  Obviously other players could be added as necessary (Dedmon seems like a player the Cavs could use).

I think the Cleveland fan forum would light itself on fire if Bazemore was the main get from the Lottery pick. I would be so beyond thrilled if that somehow happened.
Maybe depends on how Bazemore looks for the Cavs and what he does for them, but this isn't a bad trade for Cleveland in a vacuum, especially with the BKN pick looking like 8-10 rather than 1-3.  Irving and Smith for Thomas, Bazemore, Crowder, Zizic, 2nd rounder is a fairly even trade all things being considered. May be they just add Frye and Dedmon to the trade making it a little more palatable to Cleveland.

Cavs would have to feel pretty good about their playoff chances if they rolled in with this team

PG - Thomas, Calderon, Rose
SG - Bazemore, Wade, Shumpert
SF - James, Green, Korver, Osman
PF - Love, Crowder
C - Thompson, Dedmon, Zizic

That team should easily come out of the east, and if they ever get Crowder figured out defensively might be able to realistically challenge the Warriors (though I would expect GS to still win).  The reality is the Cavs badly need someone like Bazemore.  He would just make their whole team better because SG is by far their weakest spot and the spot they could most use a 3-D type player (Bazemore is more talented than a regular 3-D player, but that is his basic skill set).

I don't even know where to begin with this. I am absolutely fascinated by the fact that you think Bazemore moves the needle for them at all and they could trade the 8th pick in the draft for him.
I don't think the Cavs are as far away as most, but they have an obvious need at SG.  Smith is just terrible, Wade is fine off the bench but that is his role, Shumpert (if he gets healthy) is worse than Smith.  If the Cavs fix their starting SG problem, with a solid 2 way player, it will do a lot for their overall team.  They are also unloading Smith, who has a big contract, is playing terrible, and is a guy that has eventually been a cancer on every team he has played for.  The Cavs aren't "winning" a trade of Smith, Frye, and BKN for Bazemore and Dedmon, but it is a trade that makes them a heck of a lot better and saves them a heck of a lot of money. 

And BTW, have you actually looked at the quality of player you get with pick 8.  It isn't exactly a whose who.  These are the last 20 such picks starting most recently: Ntilikina, Chriss, S. Johnson, Stauskas, KCP, Ross, Knight, Aminu, Jordan Hill, Joe Alexander, Brandan Wright, Gay, Frye, Araujo, TJ Ford, Wilcox, Diop, Crawford, Andre Miller, Larry Hughes.  In other words, Bazemore is better than almost all of those players (though picks 9 and 10 have had more top tier players than 8 you are still just as likely to get a player worse than Bazemore).

For a team like the Cavs, that is old with a very short window, I can totally see them taking a risk on a player that clearly improves their team and gives them a better shot, rather than taking a chance on a total crap shoot of a draft pick.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: 86MaxwellSmart on January 16, 2018, 04:52:55 PM
It's really sickening Year after Year--to see everyone bend over backwards to appease LeBron James. Always gotta surround this guy with just the right players, or he will QUIT on his team...Tired of this pathetic and weak "King"......go away.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: saltlover on January 16, 2018, 04:57:09 PM
If true, Wade and Love have some NERVE to complain about anyoneís defense.

Quote
@IAmJamesStewart

Supposedly, LeBron and Kevin Love went to the media along with Wade and complained about how bad Isaiah was defensively. They complained about everyone but they keyed on Isaiah a lot.

I would be disappointed if Love had taken to backstabbing IT in the press.  I expect it from LeBron and Wade, but IT and Love have been friends since they were 12, with IT spending every other weekend with Loveís family.  They may not be BFFs, or whatever todayís term is, but going back that long should prevent anonymous complaints Iíd think.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticsclay on January 16, 2018, 05:28:04 PM
There are going to be lots of potential players available.  I mean the Hawks have already said Belinelli and Illyasova are both available for a 2nd round pick (and no long term salary).  The Magic are aggressively looking to move Fournier, Hezonja, and Payton.  The available players are only going to increase as the season wears on.  Not all of those players would obviously help Cleveland, but there will be players available that absolutely could help the Cavs.

For example, maybe Atlanta is willing to move Bazemore.  He, would plug a lot of Cleveland's holes as he is a legitimate starting SG that is a + defender and respectable shooter.  Not sure either team does it, but Smith + BKN for Bazemore makes a lot of sense for both teams.  Obviously other players could be added as necessary (Dedmon seems like a player the Cavs could use).

I think the Cleveland fan forum would light itself on fire if Bazemore was the main get from the Lottery pick. I would be so beyond thrilled if that somehow happened.
Maybe depends on how Bazemore looks for the Cavs and what he does for them, but this isn't a bad trade for Cleveland in a vacuum, especially with the BKN pick looking like 8-10 rather than 1-3.  Irving and Smith for Thomas, Bazemore, Crowder, Zizic, 2nd rounder is a fairly even trade all things being considered. May be they just add Frye and Dedmon to the trade making it a little more palatable to Cleveland.

Cavs would have to feel pretty good about their playoff chances if they rolled in with this team

PG - Thomas, Calderon, Rose
SG - Bazemore, Wade, Shumpert
SF - James, Green, Korver, Osman
PF - Love, Crowder
C - Thompson, Dedmon, Zizic

That team should easily come out of the east, and if they ever get Crowder figured out defensively might be able to realistically challenge the Warriors (though I would expect GS to still win).  The reality is the Cavs badly need someone like Bazemore.  He would just make their whole team better because SG is by far their weakest spot and the spot they could most use a 3-D type player (Bazemore is more talented than a regular 3-D player, but that is his basic skill set).

I don't even know where to begin with this. I am absolutely fascinated by the fact that you think Bazemore moves the needle for them at all and they could trade the 8th pick in the draft for him.
I don't think the Cavs are as far away as most, but they have an obvious need at SG.  Smith is just terrible, Wade is fine off the bench but that is his role, Shumpert (if he gets healthy) is worse than Smith.  If the Cavs fix their starting SG problem, with a solid 2 way player, it will do a lot for their overall team.  They are also unloading Smith, who has a big contract, is playing terrible, and is a guy that has eventually been a cancer on every team he has played for.  The Cavs aren't "winning" a trade of Smith, Frye, and BKN for Bazemore and Dedmon, but it is a trade that makes them a heck of a lot better and saves them a heck of a lot of money. 

And BTW, have you actually looked at the quality of player you get with pick 8.  It isn't exactly a whose who.  These are the last 20 such picks starting most recently: Ntilikina, Chriss, S. Johnson, Stauskas, KCP, Ross, Knight, Aminu, Jordan Hill, Joe Alexander, Brandan Wright, Gay, Frye, Araujo, TJ Ford, Wilcox, Diop, Crawford, Andre Miller, Larry Hughes.  In other words, Bazemore is better than almost all of those players (though picks 9 and 10 have had more top tier players than 8 you are still just as likely to get a player worse than Bazemore).

For a team like the Cavs, that is old with a very short window, I can totally see them taking a risk on a player that clearly improves their team and gives them a better shot, rather than taking a chance on a total crap shoot of a draft pick.

I feel like you really talk out of both sides of your mouth regarding the Cavs. You were debating with me a month ago that the Brooklyn pick was the most valuable trade asset in the league because it could be traded for a player back that wouldn't impact their win total (I disagreed at the time). Now here you are seemingly having it locked in at number 8 in mid February despite it being one game out of the 5th slot (and still capable of winning the lottery) and have them trading it for Bazemore cause the 8th pick sucks. Which is it?
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: jbp126 on January 16, 2018, 05:33:08 PM
My wild and crazy trade idea for Cleveland and Memphis:

Cleveland gets:

Mike Conley
Marc Gasol

Memphis gets:

Kevin Love
Tristan Thompson
Isaiah Thomas
BK '18 pick

This gives LeBron a reason to stay and Cleveland a solid, albeit aging, core if he leaves. Memphis gets another lottery pick this year, a chance to re-sign IT, and a couple of useful players to not bottom out the next couple of seasons. Not a perfect swap but both teams need a shake up.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 16, 2018, 05:34:24 PM
Until we beat them in the playoffs all this is moot.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on January 16, 2018, 05:36:09 PM
My wild and crazy trade idea for Cleveland and Memphis:

Cleveland gets:

Mike Conley
Marc Gasol

Memphis gets:

Kevin Love
Tristan Thompson
Isaiah Thomas
BK '18 pick

This gives LeBron a reason to stay and Cleveland a solid, albeit aging, core if he leaves. Memphis gets another lottery pick this year, a chance to re-sign IT, and a couple of useful players to not bottom out the next couple of seasons. Not a perfect swap but both teams need a shake up.

Memphis clearly wins that trade in my opinion. Love and Thomas are arguably more productive of players than Conley and Gasol. On top of that, the Cavs include another productive front court player and the Brooklyn pick.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: GreenEnvy on January 16, 2018, 05:48:21 PM
Iím a little cautious to write off LeBron, regardless of the team around him. Weíve seen him put up some legendary performances against us in the playoffs.

But, this team is pretty bad. Last year, they were 29-11 on the same date. That included three LeBron DNPís, of which all were Lís. So with LeBron, they were actually 29-8. He only played in 5 of 8 b2bís at this point (and played in 6 of 9 the rest of the way).

This season, he hasnít gotten any rest games (although more rest days in between). Heís already played in 8 b2bís with 5 more still on their schedule. His minutes are about the same so I wouldnít really worry about how much heís playing, but how frequently could be an issue.

They were 51-23 with him in the lineup. Thatís a 69% winning clip, while this year they are winning at a 60% clip (which is perhaps skewed from that 19-2 run against weak opponents) with him.


If this is how bad they play the rest of the year, itís probably who they are. If IT gets back to himself and they rattle off another win streak and still win 50-55, I would put them as the favorites.

But they sure look vulnerable and I think they could set themselves up for a much more difficult road to the ECF than LeBron is used to.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: Phantom255x on January 16, 2018, 05:58:45 PM
Wow now Windhorst is piling on saying the Cavs could learn from the Spurs in how they handled Aldridge's trade request. One you see Lebron's personal fan biographer bashing the front office of Cleveland its pretty clear to me Lebron won't be sticking around (more than anything else i have seen or read)

http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22110844/how-cleveland-cavaliers-san-antonio-spurs-handled-trade-demands-worlds-apart

Yeah... when Windhorst is showing concern for the Cavaliers, you know something is up.

I'm sure Cleveland may still find a way to get through the East (with some tough 6-7 game series), but there's a great chance they get swept by Golden State in the Finals (not even a single win for CLE).
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: keevsnick on January 16, 2018, 06:26:10 PM
It's true, they can't. They won one ge last year against GSW and they didn't get better. Now could they still make it out if the east. Sure. But they don't have a shot against GSW. To be fair neither do we, or anyone else.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: GreenWarrior on January 16, 2018, 06:56:30 PM
Quote
Cavs players don't think current roster can compete

but they have Jae Crowder!?!?!
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: Who on January 16, 2018, 07:06:46 PM
AB could really really make an impact on defense.  and the team i. terms of embrassing the rest of the Cavs ...when they see how hard he works .....it sets a tone for everybody else.

AB would change the dynamics of Caves defense .   Crowder might play harder if AB was on the team ...IT is just a liability for the Cavs main weaknes defense .  Cavs don't need scoring ....ITs role ..they need lock down defense stoppers.

If Thomas would get traded for Bradley, that would be very ironic. Even if they thought it would be a good move, they wouldn't do it since it makes the Irving trade look worse.

But I agree with you. Cleveland doesn't need more star power or primary scoring options. They need a supporting cast that consists of reliable shooters and players who can hold their own defensively against Curry, Thompson and Durant.

They need to worry less about the Warriors and more about the Celtics and Raptors.

The Cavs are not getting out of the East in their current state.

Worrying about the Warriors is putting the cart before the horse.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 16, 2018, 07:13:26 PM
AB could really really make an impact on defense.  and the team i. terms of embrassing the rest of the Cavs ...when they see how hard he works .....it sets a tone for everybody else.

AB would change the dynamics of Caves defense .   Crowder might play harder if AB was on the team ...IT is just a liability for the Cavs main weaknes defense .  Cavs don't need scoring ....ITs role ..they need lock down defense stoppers.

If Thomas would get traded for Bradley, that would be very ironic. Even if they thought it would be a good move, they wouldn't do it since it makes the Irving trade look worse.

But I agree with you. Cleveland doesn't need more star power or primary scoring options. They need a supporting cast that consists of reliable shooters and players who can hold their own defensively against Curry, Thompson and Durant.

They need to worry less about the Warriors and more about the Celtics and Raptors.

The Cavs are not getting out of the East in their current state.

Worrying about the Warriors is putting the cart before the horse.

nope .....Cavs have Lebron and the BIG picture is what matters .....telling him we can give you a little help is not gonna cut it with Lebron .   ....He expects to be in the finals......if Ceveland does not care to go all in to win with Lebron ....then they 100 % be sure he is nit staying n.  Bron is not worried about Celtics .....if he beats Celtics and can't beat Warriors , its all in vain for him.....and what irks Lebron is bad for Cleveland.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: chilidawg on January 16, 2018, 07:51:05 PM
My wild and crazy trade idea for Cleveland and Memphis:

Cleveland gets:

Mike Conley
Marc Gasol

Memphis gets:

Kevin Love
Tristan Thompson
Isaiah Thomas
BK '18 pick

This gives LeBron a reason to stay and Cleveland a solid, albeit aging, core if he leaves. Memphis gets another lottery pick this year, a chance to re-sign IT, and a couple of useful players to not bottom out the next couple of seasons. Not a perfect swap but both teams need a shake up.

Memphis clearly wins that trade in my opinion. Love and Thomas are arguably more productive of players than Conley and Gasol. On top of that, the Cavs include another productive front court player and the Brooklyn pick.
I'd like to see a rational argument that Love and Thomas are better than Gasol and Conley.  I can't conjure one up.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: gouki88 on January 16, 2018, 08:09:45 PM
My wild and crazy trade idea for Cleveland and Memphis:

Cleveland gets:

Mike Conley
Marc Gasol

Memphis gets:

Kevin Love
Tristan Thompson
Isaiah Thomas
BK '18 pick

This gives LeBron a reason to stay and Cleveland a solid, albeit aging, core if he leaves. Memphis gets another lottery pick this year, a chance to re-sign IT, and a couple of useful players to not bottom out the next couple of seasons. Not a perfect swap but both teams need a shake up.

Memphis clearly wins that trade in my opinion. Love and Thomas are arguably more productive of players than Conley and Gasol. On top of that, the Cavs include another productive front court player and the Brooklyn pick.
I'd like to see a rational argument that Love and Thomas are better than Gasol and Conley.  I can't conjure one up.
Because there isn't one
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Snakehead on January 16, 2018, 08:10:28 PM
I really hope Love and some other Cavs weren't calling out IT for the defense so much.  Didn't kill the Celtics and they were already awful.

That being said, at some point that is part of his ultimate ceiling as a player and why I was very happy with the trade.  Still love IT.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: ChillyWilly on January 16, 2018, 08:10:29 PM
My wild and crazy trade idea for Cleveland and Memphis:

Cleveland gets:

Mike Conley
Marc Gasol

Memphis gets:

Kevin Love
Tristan Thompson
Isaiah Thomas
BK '18 pick

This gives LeBron a reason to stay and Cleveland a solid, albeit aging, core if he leaves. Memphis gets another lottery pick this year, a chance to re-sign IT, and a couple of useful players to not bottom out the next couple of seasons. Not a perfect swap but both teams need a shake up.

Memphis clearly wins that trade in my opinion. Love and Thomas are arguably more productive of players than Conley and Gasol. On top of that, the Cavs include another productive front court player and the Brooklyn pick.
I'd like to see a rational argument that Love and Thomas are better than Gasol and Conley.  I can't conjure one up.

I'd take Conley and Gasol over IT4 and Love right now today.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: DefenseWinsChamps on January 16, 2018, 08:23:02 PM
Conley is a really good player, but he has never been considered a top point guard in the NBA. He's never been to an all-star game. His defense is good, but not great. Until last year, he never averaged more than 18 ppg in a year, and he reverted to below that this season. He's never averaged more than 7 assists per game.

Meanwhile, Thomas averaged almost 30 a game last year on his way to his second all-star game and an all-nba second team.

He's a good player, but is he even a top 10 point guard? Most people would take Curry, Westbrook, Irving, Lillard, Paul, Wall, and Harden (if you consider him a pg) over him. He's in the next class with Bledsoe, Walker, Holliday, and Dragic. Its debatable if he is top 10 (although I'd put him at 8 ). I'd say Thomas is in Conley's same tier.

Gasol is definitely over-the-hill. He can't play defense anymore. He has added the 3 point shot to his game which will prolong his career, but Grizzles fans know that he is not an elite player anymore. Besides, he is a 7 foot 280 bear who has had foot issues lately.

Going forward, you are probably guaranteed 5-6 more years of high level play from Love, but only 2 from Gasol (hopefully injury-free). Love can shoot outside and rebound. If you put the ball in his hands more, I still think he can be the offensive threat he was when he played with the Wolves.

Imagine what the Warriors, or any smart time, would do to Gasol with switches. If you think Love is bad on the perimeter, you should watch Gasol these days. Its brutal.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: Moranis on January 17, 2018, 08:18:39 AM
There are going to be lots of potential players available.  I mean the Hawks have already said Belinelli and Illyasova are both available for a 2nd round pick (and no long term salary).  The Magic are aggressively looking to move Fournier, Hezonja, and Payton.  The available players are only going to increase as the season wears on.  Not all of those players would obviously help Cleveland, but there will be players available that absolutely could help the Cavs.

For example, maybe Atlanta is willing to move Bazemore.  He, would plug a lot of Cleveland's holes as he is a legitimate starting SG that is a + defender and respectable shooter.  Not sure either team does it, but Smith + BKN for Bazemore makes a lot of sense for both teams.  Obviously other players could be added as necessary (Dedmon seems like a player the Cavs could use).

I think the Cleveland fan forum would light itself on fire if Bazemore was the main get from the Lottery pick. I would be so beyond thrilled if that somehow happened.
Maybe depends on how Bazemore looks for the Cavs and what he does for them, but this isn't a bad trade for Cleveland in a vacuum, especially with the BKN pick looking like 8-10 rather than 1-3.  Irving and Smith for Thomas, Bazemore, Crowder, Zizic, 2nd rounder is a fairly even trade all things being considered. May be they just add Frye and Dedmon to the trade making it a little more palatable to Cleveland.

Cavs would have to feel pretty good about their playoff chances if they rolled in with this team

PG - Thomas, Calderon, Rose
SG - Bazemore, Wade, Shumpert
SF - James, Green, Korver, Osman
PF - Love, Crowder
C - Thompson, Dedmon, Zizic

That team should easily come out of the east, and if they ever get Crowder figured out defensively might be able to realistically challenge the Warriors (though I would expect GS to still win).  The reality is the Cavs badly need someone like Bazemore.  He would just make their whole team better because SG is by far their weakest spot and the spot they could most use a 3-D type player (Bazemore is more talented than a regular 3-D player, but that is his basic skill set).

I don't even know where to begin with this. I am absolutely fascinated by the fact that you think Bazemore moves the needle for them at all and they could trade the 8th pick in the draft for him.
I don't think the Cavs are as far away as most, but they have an obvious need at SG.  Smith is just terrible, Wade is fine off the bench but that is his role, Shumpert (if he gets healthy) is worse than Smith.  If the Cavs fix their starting SG problem, with a solid 2 way player, it will do a lot for their overall team.  They are also unloading Smith, who has a big contract, is playing terrible, and is a guy that has eventually been a cancer on every team he has played for.  The Cavs aren't "winning" a trade of Smith, Frye, and BKN for Bazemore and Dedmon, but it is a trade that makes them a heck of a lot better and saves them a heck of a lot of money. 

And BTW, have you actually looked at the quality of player you get with pick 8.  It isn't exactly a whose who.  These are the last 20 such picks starting most recently: Ntilikina, Chriss, S. Johnson, Stauskas, KCP, Ross, Knight, Aminu, Jordan Hill, Joe Alexander, Brandan Wright, Gay, Frye, Araujo, TJ Ford, Wilcox, Diop, Crawford, Andre Miller, Larry Hughes.  In other words, Bazemore is better than almost all of those players (though picks 9 and 10 have had more top tier players than 8 you are still just as likely to get a player worse than Bazemore).

For a team like the Cavs, that is old with a very short window, I can totally see them taking a risk on a player that clearly improves their team and gives them a better shot, rather than taking a chance on a total crap shoot of a draft pick.

I feel like you really talk out of both sides of your mouth regarding the Cavs. You were debating with me a month ago that the Brooklyn pick was the most valuable trade asset in the league because it could be traded for a player back that wouldn't impact their win total (I disagreed at the time). Now here you are seemingly having it locked in at number 8 in mid February despite it being one game out of the 5th slot (and still capable of winning the lottery) and have them trading it for Bazemore cause the 8th pick sucks. Which is it?
It was more like 2 months ago and I said BKN and LAL were the two most valuable picks because they weren't owned by the team trading the pick, but I also pretty clearly said things would change as the season went on.  2 months later Brooklyn is looking pretty solidly like the 8-10 pick range, which is what that pick is now valued at (of course another couple of weeks they might again be the worst team in the league and the picks value could be a lot more than 8-10).  A pick valued in the 8-10 range isn't going to fetch a difference maker because picks in that range rarely produce difference makers when drafted.  The Cavs are also in a precarious situation basically needing to go all in on this season for obvious reasons (age, contract status, etc.) so a trade that makes them clearly better (which Bazemore and Dedmon does - while also removing the cancer that is JR Smith) is the type of trade they should consider. 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 18, 2018, 03:11:03 PM
New article says Lebron's excuses are weak:

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/enough-with-lebron-james-excuses-for-the-cavs-who-just-arent-very-good-right-now/

Media really piling on the cavs right now. Fun reads.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete
Post by: celticsclay on January 18, 2018, 03:13:28 PM
There are going to be lots of potential players available.  I mean the Hawks have already said Belinelli and Illyasova are both available for a 2nd round pick (and no long term salary).  The Magic are aggressively looking to move Fournier, Hezonja, and Payton.  The available players are only going to increase as the season wears on.  Not all of those players would obviously help Cleveland, but there will be players available that absolutely could help the Cavs.

For example, maybe Atlanta is willing to move Bazemore.  He, would plug a lot of Cleveland's holes as he is a legitimate starting SG that is a + defender and respectable shooter.  Not sure either team does it, but Smith + BKN for Bazemore makes a lot of sense for both teams.  Obviously other players could be added as necessary (Dedmon seems like a player the Cavs could use).

I think the Cleveland fan forum would light itself on fire if Bazemore was the main get from the Lottery pick. I would be so beyond thrilled if that somehow happened.
Maybe depends on how Bazemore looks for the Cavs and what he does for them, but this isn't a bad trade for Cleveland in a vacuum, especially with the BKN pick looking like 8-10 rather than 1-3.  Irving and Smith for Thomas, Bazemore, Crowder, Zizic, 2nd rounder is a fairly even trade all things being considered. May be they just add Frye and Dedmon to the trade making it a little more palatable to Cleveland.

Cavs would have to feel pretty good about their playoff chances if they rolled in with this team

PG - Thomas, Calderon, Rose
SG - Bazemore, Wade, Shumpert
SF - James, Green, Korver, Osman
PF - Love, Crowder
C - Thompson, Dedmon, Zizic

That team should easily come out of the east, and if they ever get Crowder figured out defensively might be able to realistically challenge the Warriors (though I would expect GS to still win).  The reality is the Cavs badly need someone like Bazemore.  He would just make their whole team better because SG is by far their weakest spot and the spot they could most use a 3-D type player (Bazemore is more talented than a regular 3-D player, but that is his basic skill set).

I don't even know where to begin with this. I am absolutely fascinated by the fact that you think Bazemore moves the needle for them at all and they could trade the 8th pick in the draft for him.
I don't think the Cavs are as far away as most, but they have an obvious need at SG.  Smith is just terrible, Wade is fine off the bench but that is his role, Shumpert (if he gets healthy) is worse than Smith.  If the Cavs fix their starting SG problem, with a solid 2 way player, it will do a lot for their overall team.  They are also unloading Smith, who has a big contract, is playing terrible, and is a guy that has eventually been a cancer on every team he has played for.  The Cavs aren't "winning" a trade of Smith, Frye, and BKN for Bazemore and Dedmon, but it is a trade that makes them a heck of a lot better and saves them a heck of a lot of money. 

And BTW, have you actually looked at the quality of player you get with pick 8.  It isn't exactly a whose who.  These are the last 20 such picks starting most recently: Ntilikina, Chriss, S. Johnson, Stauskas, KCP, Ross, Knight, Aminu, Jordan Hill, Joe Alexander, Brandan Wright, Gay, Frye, Araujo, TJ Ford, Wilcox, Diop, Crawford, Andre Miller, Larry Hughes.  In other words, Bazemore is better than almost all of those players (though picks 9 and 10 have had more top tier players than 8 you are still just as likely to get a player worse than Bazemore).

For a team like the Cavs, that is old with a very short window, I can totally see them taking a risk on a player that clearly improves their team and gives them a better shot, rather than taking a chance on a total crap shoot of a draft pick.

I feel like you really talk out of both sides of your mouth regarding the Cavs. You were debating with me a month ago that the Brooklyn pick was the most valuable trade asset in the league because it could be traded for a player back that wouldn't impact their win total (I disagreed at the time). Now here you are seemingly having it locked in at number 8 in mid February despite it being one game out of the 5th slot (and still capable of winning the lottery) and have them trading it for Bazemore cause the 8th pick sucks. Which is it?
It was more like 2 months ago and I said BKN and LAL were the two most valuable picks because they weren't owned by the team trading the pick, but I also pretty clearly said things would change as the season went on.  2 months later Brooklyn is looking pretty solidly like the 8-10 pick range, which is what that pick is now valued at (of course another couple of weeks they might again be the worst team in the league and the picks value could be a lot more than 8-10).  A pick valued in the 8-10 range isn't going to fetch a difference maker because picks in that range rarely produce difference makers when drafted.  The Cavs are also in a precarious situation basically needing to go all in on this season for obvious reasons (age, contract status, etc.) so a trade that makes them clearly better (which Bazemore and Dedmon does - while also removing the cancer that is JR Smith) is the type of trade they should consider.

If the Cavs do this trade you are suggesting, would you say a terrible Jae Crowder, 20 healthy games of IT, Bazemore and zizic's carcass for Irving goes down as an all-time ripoff? What if Irving and the Celtics beat them.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: cman88 on January 20, 2018, 08:48:26 AM
lebron has no one to blame but himself for the roster construction. It was Lebron that lobbied for big contracts for Tristen Tjompson, kyle korver and JR smith who are now leaving no flexibility with the cap. and it was lebron who lobbied for the who's who of washed up veterans.

For all the people saying "cavs will figure it out!" the warning signs were there even during their winning streak. During that streak while they were winning they were still giving up as much as they scored. Just that Lebron was playing out of his mind for 40 minutes a game to pull wins off.

I really don't know what the Cavs can do to bridge the gap. Lets say all the apologists are right and the cavs can roll through the east in the playoffs.

I see no way they can win more than 1 game against golden state. and I see no way they can totally reconstruct the roster in the off-season save for trading the brooklyn pick which is losing value with every nets win.

this Cavs team is where the Heat were when lebron bolted...but probably worse. cash strapped with Under-performing, overpaid veterans with not much room for improvement. Lebron bolted when he saw the writing on the wall that the heats championship days were done. will he do the same to the cavs?

Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: CelticsElite on January 20, 2018, 02:37:45 PM
Let them implode
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: chilidawg on January 20, 2018, 02:58:12 PM
Let them implode

I would enjoy that.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: SCeltic34 on January 20, 2018, 08:46:22 PM
According to basketball-reference.com, the Cavs are far worse defensively with IT on the floor.  Though it's a small sample size, this is expected.  The opposing team scores almost 6 more points per 100 possessions when IT is in the Cavs lineup.  The opposing team's offensive rebounding and total rebounding percentages also jump significantly, showing not surprisingly that IT hurts the Cavs rebounding efforts.  What's not expected is that the Cavs are also worse offensively with IT on the floor so far, scoring 8 points less per 100 possessions and suffering a colossal -0.55 in eFG%.

I love IT as much as anyone, but at the same time I was in the "trade IT while his value is high" faction of the blog simply because he is the biggest mismatch in the league every minute he's on the floor.  Because the playoffs are about matchups this can be really difficult to overcome.

On paper the Cavs look to have had a decent offseason, picking up seasoned veterans and extracting good value for a disgruntled Irving.  But the reality is that they didn't learn from their buttkicking from the Warriors in the finals and make moves to improve their defense.  Regular season losses aren't usually something to be overly concerned about, but giving up 148 points on 58% shooting today is something else entirely.

It's too bad Hayward had to go down with an injury.  I want to be the team to dethrone the Cavs in the East especially before LeBron jumps ship.  I think we still can, but if we had a healthy Hayward and a few solid additions to our bench I think we would beat Cleveland in 6 games tops.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on January 20, 2018, 09:21:27 PM
According to basketball-reference.com, the Cavs are far worse defensively with IT on the floor.  Though it's a small sample size, this is expected.  The opposing team scores almost 6 more points per 100 possessions when IT is in the Cavs lineup.  The opposing team's offensive rebounding and total rebounding percentages also jump significantly, showing not surprisingly that IT hurts the Cavs rebounding efforts.  What's not expected is that the Cavs are also worse offensively with IT on the floor so far, scoring 8 points less per 100 possessions and suffering a colossal -0.55 in eFG%.

I love IT as much as anyone, but at the same time I was in the "trade IT while his value is high" faction of the blog simply because he is the biggest mismatch in the league every minute he's on the floor.  Because the playoffs are about matchups this can be really difficult to overcome.

On paper the Cavs look to have had a decent offseason, picking up seasoned veterans and extracting good value for a disgruntled Irving.  But the reality is that they didn't learn from their buttkicking from the Warriors in the finals and make moves to improve their defense.  Regular season losses aren't usually something to be overly concerned about, but giving up 148 points on 58% shooting today is something else entirely.

It's too bad Hayward had to go down with an injury.  I want to be the team to dethrone the Cavs in the East especially before LeBron jumps ship.  I think we still can, but if we had a healthy Hayward and a few solid additions to our bench I think we would beat Cleveland in 6 games tops.

Isaiah as played 6 games in CLE.  He doesn't have his feel for the game back yet, and the Cavs have struggled to fit all year.  Any advanced statistics are pretty meaningless.  And relative to his prior stats... he has been a plus his entire career (based on your PM), and improved for each team he spent any meaningful time on.  Painting him as a net negative is super short-sighted and unfair, don't you think?

I'm not sure what else CLE could have done to improve, and ultimately, there was nothing they could to to improve to the level of GS.  They also haven't cared about the regular season in years, and their performance has shown that it doesn't matter.  Maybe they aren't good enough to come out of the East this year -- I'm doubtful they won't -- but again we're reaching here about how meaningful their issues and poor stats will be when it matters. 

-tars & Big Mo
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: CelticSooner on January 20, 2018, 09:28:57 PM
If IT keeps talking like this the Cavs demise could come sooner rather than later. Chemistry doesnít seem to be all there.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2755155-isaiah-thomas-cavs-dont-trust-each-other-celtics-tried-harder-defensively.amp.html
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on January 20, 2018, 09:32:30 PM
If IT keeps talking like this the Cavs demise could come sooner rather than later. Chemistry doesnít seem to be all there.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/2755155-isaiah-thomas-cavs-dont-trust-each-other-celtics-tried-harder-defensively.amp.html

He's right though.  I'm glad he didn't break the unspoken rule of not throwing your teammates under the bus (unlike LBJ).  Sometimes these comments can light a fire under a team's butt, and commenting on defense, effort, and trust are pretty much the perfect things to say if that's the intention.  Media comments always perceived differently by fans, but I'd say he's just being a leader.  For his sake, I hope he's able to get out of CLE after this season. 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: IDreamCeltics on January 20, 2018, 09:37:00 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh... 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: CelticSooner on January 20, 2018, 09:44:19 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Cavs need to beat someone with a pulse first. They are primed to be dispatched this year. Just a matter of finally doing it. They will try outscore everyone again and I see that being harder this time around. Hope they keep chirping to the media.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 20, 2018, 10:00:14 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: gouki88 on January 20, 2018, 10:39:06 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on January 20, 2018, 10:54:10 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)

Re: Isaiah, I'm just repeating myself -- he's been a net plus his entire career.  Like so many other PGs, his offense contributions have always outweighed his poor defense.  Again, I trust years of data more than months of data.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: slightly biased bias fan on January 20, 2018, 10:57:50 PM
Their roster is so worn down and dysfunctional it's scary.

- Love's talents are redundant because of LeBron wanting the same court positions as him and the fact his body is falling apart
- Thompson has regressed like crazy since going out with a Kardashian.
- JR Smith is no longer the defender he was
- Crowder is no longer the defender he was since his injury a couple of years ago and is playing out of position.
- Thomas will no longer be the centre of the offence and doesn't have the same defensive cover that he did in Boston.
- Rose is finished unfortunately and his remaining abilities are redundant.
- Green can't be relied on, on either side of the court.

Ty Lue is too inexperienced for this type of ego's and situation, he should have been let go for someone better a long time ago but I believe Dan Gilbert is too cheap to get the right guy.

Most will blame LeBron some how but it all comes to Gilbert, he's cheap, rude, abusive and never gets the right person for the job, this is why LeBron left last time and sadly will leave again.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 20, 2018, 11:15:21 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot the other change in context of Lue inexplicably changing the starting lineup to move Love to the 5 to fit Crowder in. That's yet another change making these analog arguments fallacious and irrelevant.

EDIT EDIT: Oh, and that's also forgetting to consider the fact that the East is MUCH, MUCH better this season with several legit contenders for the Eastern crown (Boston, Toronto, Cleveland) and several faux contenders that will nonetheless be tough outs in the playoffs (Milwaukee, Washington, Miami).
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: SCeltic34 on January 20, 2018, 11:19:11 PM
According to basketball-reference.com, the Cavs are far worse defensively with IT on the floor.  Though it's a small sample size, this is expected.  The opposing team scores almost 6 more points per 100 possessions when IT is in the Cavs lineup.  The opposing team's offensive rebounding and total rebounding percentages also jump significantly, showing not surprisingly that IT hurts the Cavs rebounding efforts.  What's not expected is that the Cavs are also worse offensively with IT on the floor so far, scoring 8 points less per 100 possessions and suffering a colossal -0.55 in eFG%.

I love IT as much as anyone, but at the same time I was in the "trade IT while his value is high" faction of the blog simply because he is the biggest mismatch in the league every minute he's on the floor.  Because the playoffs are about matchups this can be really difficult to overcome.

On paper the Cavs look to have had a decent offseason, picking up seasoned veterans and extracting good value for a disgruntled Irving.  But the reality is that they didn't learn from their buttkicking from the Warriors in the finals and make moves to improve their defense.  Regular season losses aren't usually something to be overly concerned about, but giving up 148 points on 58% shooting today is something else entirely.

It's too bad Hayward had to go down with an injury.  I want to be the team to dethrone the Cavs in the East especially before LeBron jumps ship.  I think we still can, but if we had a healthy Hayward and a few solid additions to our bench I think we would beat Cleveland in 6 games tops.

Isaiah as played 6 games in CLE.  He doesn't have his feel for the game back yet, and the Cavs have struggled to fit all year.  Any advanced statistics are pretty meaningless.  And relative to his prior stats... he has been a plus his entire career (based on your PM), and improved for each team he spent any meaningful time on.  Painting him as a net negative is super short-sighted and unfair, don't you think?

I'm not sure what else CLE could have done to improve, and ultimately, there was nothing they could to to improve to the level of GS.  They also haven't cared about the regular season in years, and their performance has shown that it doesn't matter.  Maybe they aren't good enough to come out of the East this year -- I'm doubtful they won't -- but again we're reaching here about how meaningful their issues and poor stats will be when it matters. 

-tars & Big Mo

The point is that Cleveland's defense is their biggest problem - a problem that will only be magnified with IT on the court.  I acknowledged the small sample size, but I expect the numbers to continue to show worse defense with IT on the court, while I expect the offensive numbers to improve.  And I'm not that big on advanced stats.  They're helpful when used in context thought I prefer the eye test, butother than Celtics games I haven't been able to watch other teams much this season.

And I didn't, and wouldn't, paint IT as a net negative.  That certainly wasn't the case when he was with the C's.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on January 20, 2018, 11:20:09 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season -- the narrative last year was the same "this year is different."  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, but superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence.  People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 20, 2018, 11:33:22 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: sirnastee on January 20, 2018, 11:37:40 PM
Lebron is so annoying because ever since the Antawn Jamison days, he's been pretty much making his GM go out and get certain players... Then, the team struggles, and he complains that the team isn't good enough when he's the one who controls the management of the team.  He makes Cavs resign Tristan Thompson for a ridiculous amount because they share an agent, go out and get Dwayne Wade, it is pretty ridiculous. 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on January 21, 2018, 12:20:18 AM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

I appreciate your evidence, but agree to disagree.  You find these circumstances to be worse enough to create a different outcome this season;  I see each year that the conversation has happened before to be analogous.  And the other consistency is LBJ's 7 consecutive Finals appearances. 

Appreciate the Trump and Obama comparison too.  It's cheeky, but c'mon... that defines apples to oranges.  But if anything, they prove my point - you could definitely predict how each would behavior/act in a lot of circumstances.  I don't think your philosophical stuff matches up well with the past behavior --> future behavior relation.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 21, 2018, 12:28:14 AM
Their roster is so worn down and dysfunctional it's scary.

- Love's talents are redundant because of LeBron wanting the same court positions as him and the fact his body is falling apart
- Thompson has regressed like crazy since going out with a Kardashian.
- JR Smith is no longer the defender he was
- Crowder is no longer the defender he was since his injury a couple of years ago and is playing out of position.
- Thomas will no longer be the centre of the offence and doesn't have the same defensive cover that he did in Boston.
- Rose is finished unfortunately and his remaining abilities are redundant.
- Green can't be relied on, on either side of the court.

Ty Lue is too inexperienced for this type of ego's and situation, he should have been let go for someone better a long time ago but I believe Dan Gilbert is too cheap to get the right guy.

Most will blame LeBron some how but it all comes to Gilbert, he's cheap, rude, abusive and never gets the right person for the job, this is why LeBron left last time and sadly will leave again.


pretty cool stuff
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: CelticsElite on January 21, 2018, 02:44:08 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUBly0yU8AA-iKa?format=jpg)

IT defensive  rating was 151 tonight. Had to be some historic bad number
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 21, 2018, 03:29:49 AM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 21, 2018, 03:34:03 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUBly0yU8AA-iKa?format=jpg)

IT defensive  rating was 151 tonight. Had to be some historic bad number

Thank you for sharing
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 21, 2018, 03:38:02 AM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

Yea that eastern conference record was a really bad take. The cavs have lost to the best teams all year, we haven't.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: SparzWizard on January 21, 2018, 03:58:00 AM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

Yea that eastern conference record was a really bad take. The cavs have lost to the best teams all year, we haven't.

We should've won opening night even without Gordon Hayward. With Gordon Hayward, Celtics would've thrashed them by 20 points and I am not kidding.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: SparzWizard on January 21, 2018, 03:59:31 AM
Imagine if Hayward was 100% and it's a Cavs-Celtics playoff series.

Celtics will SWEEP them even with a healthy IT3.  8)
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on January 21, 2018, 06:10:40 AM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: KGs Knee on January 21, 2018, 08:12:52 AM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is a fantastic argument.

But what TH is saying is that none of that other stuff matters, only LeBron matters. In that context, there's every reason to believe the situations are analogous.

I'm not sure if I agree with the idea none of that other stuff matters, but given that LeBron has been to the Finals 7 straights years, each year with seemingly a different supporting cast, there might be some merit to that argument.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: IDreamCeltics on January 21, 2018, 08:35:22 AM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

I have to confess that I ended up getting a lot of amusement out of this thread.

I read some of these quotes to a room full of long-time die-hard NBA basketball fans and they were howling with laughter.

Essentially, everyone was in agreement you'd have to be 11 years old and have no knowledge of the past whatsoever to believe the Cavs were "done" based on the most recent first half of the season.

They even went so far as to invent a character named "Little Timmy" who would come to naive worst-case scenario conclusions based on knee jerk reactions all day long - it was a real hoot. 

What I learned from the "Little Timmy" experience is that it was best not to argue with him, but instead just chuckle and say "That's nice, I'm sure you're right." 

So in that light...

"That's nice, I'm sure you're right."   :D :D :D

Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: mctyson on January 21, 2018, 09:45:25 AM
According to basketball-reference.com, the Cavs are far worse defensively with IT on the floor.  Though it's a small sample size, this is expected.  The opposing team scores almost 6 more points per 100 possessions when IT is in the Cavs lineup.  The opposing team's offensive rebounding and total rebounding percentages also jump significantly, showing not surprisingly that IT hurts the Cavs rebounding efforts.  What's not expected is that the Cavs are also worse offensively with IT on the floor so far, scoring 8 points less per 100 possessions and suffering a colossal -0.55 in eFG%.

I love IT as much as anyone, but at the same time I was in the "trade IT while his value is high" faction of the blog simply because he is the biggest mismatch in the league every minute he's on the floor.  Because the playoffs are about matchups this can be really difficult to overcome.

On paper the Cavs look to have had a decent offseason, picking up seasoned veterans and extracting good value for a disgruntled Irving.  But the reality is that they didn't learn from their buttkicking from the Warriors in the finals and make moves to improve their defense.  Regular season losses aren't usually something to be overly concerned about, but giving up 148 points on 58% shooting today is something else entirely.

It's too bad Hayward had to go down with an injury.  I want to be the team to dethrone the Cavs in the East especially before LeBron jumps ship.  I think we still can, but if we had a healthy Hayward and a few solid additions to our bench I think we would beat Cleveland in 6 games tops.

Isaiah as played 6 games in CLE.  He doesn't have his feel for the game back yet, and the Cavs have struggled to fit all year.  Any advanced statistics are pretty meaningless.  And relative to his prior stats... he has been a plus his entire career (based on your PM), and improved for each team he spent any meaningful time on.  Painting him as a net negative is super short-sighted and unfair, don't you think?

I'm not sure what else CLE could have done to improve, and ultimately, there was nothing they could to to improve to the level of GS.  They also haven't cared about the regular season in years, and their performance has shown that it doesn't matter.  Maybe they aren't good enough to come out of the East this year -- I'm doubtful they won't -- but again we're reaching here about how meaningful their issues and poor stats will be when it matters. 

-tars & Big Mo

I think IT is figuring it out too but he is not Cleveland's biggest problem.  They are soft inside and I think adding a big who can challenge at the rim will do them a lot of good.  Plus they could move Love back to the 4.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 21, 2018, 01:04:09 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 21, 2018, 01:07:37 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

I have to confess that I ended up getting a lot of amusement out of this thread.

I read some of these quotes to a room full of long-time die-hard NBA basketball fans and they were howling with laughter.

Essentially, everyone was in agreement you'd have to be 11 years old and have no knowledge of the past whatsoever to believe the Cavs were "done" based on the most recent first half of the season.

They even went so far as to invent a character named "Little Timmy" who would come to naive worst-case scenario conclusions based on knee jerk reactions all day long - it was a real hoot. 

What I learned from the "Little Timmy" experience is that it was best not to argue with him, but instead just chuckle and say "That's nice, I'm sure you're right." 

So in that light...

"That's nice, I'm sure you're right."   :D :D :D

I don't really think there is a reason to collectively mock a bunch of the fans on the board for having a a different viewpoint than you. The people that thing Cleveland will still roll through the east could very end up correct. However, to say that people feeling Cleveland and Lebron setting records for defensive futility game after game doesn't even open up discussion and needs to be met with a room full of laughter and condescending characters doesn't seem very reasonable.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 21, 2018, 01:18:53 PM
Just to reinforce my argument, many national pundits and even the Cavs players themselves (including Lebron) seem to feel the exact same way. For example, this is from The Athletic:

https://twitter.com/HowardBeck/status/955100928251744256

Quote
Yeah, the Cavs are in a dark place. No, it's not the same as past years. From @JasonLloydNBA's overnight report on The Athletic (I highly recommend subscribing):

2. This is the worst it has ever been. That cannot be overstated or exaggerated. The mood around the locker room, the vibe among the players, the general feeling throughout the organization is a stunning bewilderment of how it all fell apart so quickly.

3. Even Lebron James is privately acknowledging to those around him that this is the worst it has been since he returned. Worse than trying to stomach David Blatt's unfamiliarity with the NBA, worse than the 19-20 start that first season, and much, much worse than anything he endured last season, when he skewered the organization for a "top-heavy" roster while questioning the franchise's commitment to winning. This is worse. Much worse.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 21, 2018, 01:27:48 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

I have to confess that I ended up getting a lot of amusement out of this thread.

I read some of these quotes to a room full of long-time die-hard NBA basketball fans and they were howling with laughter.

Essentially, everyone was in agreement you'd have to be 11 years old and have no knowledge of the past whatsoever to believe the Cavs were "done" based on the most recent first half of the season.

They even went so far as to invent a character named "Little Timmy" who would come to naive worst-case scenario conclusions based on knee jerk reactions all day long - it was a real hoot. 

What I learned from the "Little Timmy" experience is that it was best not to argue with him, but instead just chuckle and say "That's nice, I'm sure you're right." 

So in that light...

"That's nice, I'm sure you're right."   :D :D :D

If only we were as smart as you, man.  ::)

This post just reeks of insecurity for not understanding the actual argument being made, which is fairly evident given that you're still pointing to the past in your argument. lol

EDIT: And by the way, reports are out today (see my post above) that the Cavs players themselves -including James - even feel this way that this season is different than seasons past, so I guess they must also be 11 years old and caught up in the "Little Timmy" experience.  ;) ::)
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 21, 2018, 07:28:58 PM
If the cavs lose their next two lue will be fired. Will be underdogs in both. Scary thing is that could right the ship. Lue is a joke
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: gouki88 on January 21, 2018, 07:30:51 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

I have to confess that I ended up getting a lot of amusement out of this thread.

I read some of these quotes to a room full of long-time die-hard NBA basketball fans and they were howling with laughter.

Essentially, everyone was in agreement you'd have to be 11 years old and have no knowledge of the past whatsoever to believe the Cavs were "done" based on the most recent first half of the season.

They even went so far as to invent a character named "Little Timmy" who would come to naive worst-case scenario conclusions based on knee jerk reactions all day long - it was a real hoot. 

What I learned from the "Little Timmy" experience is that it was best not to argue with him, but instead just chuckle and say "That's nice, I'm sure you're right." 

So in that light...

"That's nice, I'm sure you're right."   :D :D :D
You sound like a fun guy
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Moranis on January 22, 2018, 06:35:11 AM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: cman88 on January 22, 2018, 07:29:16 AM
and the cavs gave up 148pts to OKC....but everyone keep telling me they will be fine.

Its one thing to go through a slump and look lethargic....but this defense has been like this all year. The winning streak covered it up but they were still giving up nearly as much as they scored.

It's not a good trend to continue. Maybe they make it out of the east because the raptors are still the raptors...and Boston is young. But they might not win a game against golden state
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 22, 2018, 01:02:04 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticinorlando on January 22, 2018, 01:04:17 PM
Windy on ESPN: "Right now IT is killing this team"
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Moranis on January 22, 2018, 01:08:41 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either?  I was merely correcting your incorrect statement. 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 22, 2018, 01:30:33 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either?  I was merely correcting your incorrect statement.

Thomas is not playing at an all-star level right now. He is shooting 39% from the field and 29% from 3, has been playing bad defense and was described as "killing Cleveland" right now by Windhorst (who is not exactly negative towards Cleveland). So no, it is not a technicality that Thomas is not in the all star game he is not playing all-star ball even though he is now back.

Also, you accuse of me of trolling you and all this other stuff. Lets have a productive actual conversation about this and not try to "correct incorrect statements" with technicalities. The larger point is that, in my opinion, this is the first time since Lebron started his finals run that he has gone through the season without a teammate clearly playing at an all star level.

Irving has been an all-star every year without injury for more than half a decade. Wade was also an all-star every year from 2005-2016. There is not someone at that auto-all-star level every year on this Cleveland team. That is the point I am trying to make for discussion. Do you you agree or disagree with that?
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Monkhouse on January 22, 2018, 01:39:51 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either?  I was merely correcting your incorrect statement.

Thomas is not playing at an all-star level right now. He is shooting 39% from the field and 29% from 3, has been playing bad defense and was described as "killing Cleveland" right now by Windhorst (who is not exactly negative towards Cleveland). So no, it is not a technicality that Thomas is not in the all star game he is not playing all-star ball even though he is now back.

Also, you accuse of me of trolling you and all this other stuff. Lets have a productive actual conversation about this and not try to "correct incorrect statements" with technicalities. The larger point is that, in my opinion, this is the first time since Lebron started his finals run that he has gone through the season without a teammate clearly playing at an all star level.

Irving has been an all-star every year without injury for more than half a decade. Wade was also an all-star every year from 2005-2016. There is not someone at that auto-all-star level every year on this Cleveland team. That is the point I am trying to make for discussion. Do you you agree or disagree with that?

Did Kevin Love like fall off a cliff or are people convinced he's not gonna be an All-star?
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 22, 2018, 01:43:33 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either?  I was merely correcting your incorrect statement.

Thomas is not playing at an all-star level right now. He is shooting 39% from the field and 29% from 3, has been playing bad defense and was described as "killing Cleveland" right now by Windhorst (who is not exactly negative towards Cleveland). So no, it is not a technicality that Thomas is not in the all star game he is not playing all-star ball even though he is now back.

Also, you accuse of me of trolling you and all this other stuff. Lets have a productive actual conversation about this and not try to "correct incorrect statements" with technicalities. The larger point is that, in my opinion, this is the first time since Lebron started his finals run that he has gone through the season without a teammate clearly playing at an all star level.

Irving has been an all-star every year without injury for more than half a decade. Wade was also an all-star every year from 2005-2016. There is not someone at that auto-all-star level every year on this Cleveland team. That is the point I am trying to make for discussion. Do you you agree or disagree with that?

Did Kevin Love like fall off a cliff or are people convinced he's not gonna be an All-star?

I don't have all the article handy right now, but I have read several pieces that don't have him on the team strictly because of his defense (which goes to show you how bad it has been, cause defense isn't the first thing people think about for the all-star game). They have been playing him at the 5 through a combination of Thompson getting kardashianed and injured and he just can't seem to handle that role defensively. I believe his advanced stats are also not great (his counting and shooting stats are good).

I think he probably has about a 50% chance of making the team, but it may be partly because the all-star field is very weak in the east this year following the departures of George and Butler over the offseason. Guys like Lowry, Walker, Horford and Simmons are competing for the last spot or two this year...
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Snakehead on January 22, 2018, 01:44:42 PM
Saw Windhorst out there trying to say everything was IT's fault LOL.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Moranis on January 22, 2018, 01:56:02 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either?  I was merely correcting your incorrect statement.

Thomas is not playing at an all-star level right now. He is shooting 39% from the field and 29% from 3, has been playing bad defense and was described as "killing Cleveland" right now by Windhorst (who is not exactly negative towards Cleveland). So no, it is not a technicality that Thomas is not in the all star game he is not playing all-star ball even though he is now back.

Also, you accuse of me of trolling you and all this other stuff. Lets have a productive actual conversation about this and not try to "correct incorrect statements" with technicalities. The larger point is that, in my opinion, this is the first time since Lebron started his finals run that he has gone through the season without a teammate clearly playing at an all star level.

Irving has been an all-star every year without injury for more than half a decade. Wade was also an all-star every year from 2005-2016. There is not someone at that auto-all-star level every year on this Cleveland team. That is the point I am trying to make for discussion. Do you you agree or disagree with that?
Irving didn't play like an all star when he came back in 15-16 either.  He played 4 games in December and averaged 13 points, 3 assists, and shot 34% from the field (25% from three).  In January he was a bit better but still averaged just 17.2 points, 4 assists, and 3.6 rebounds and got the shooting up to 44.4% from the field but was still just 25.4% from three.  It wasn't until February that Irving regained his sea legs and started to perform like his usual all star level self.  I fully expect Thomas to regain his sea legs and regain that all star form at some point this season.  He just hasn't played very many games this year, and with the Cavs not practicing it will just take some time.

I also believe Kevin Love is an all star level player.  I don't think he should be playing center, as he is a PF, but he is still averaging basically 18.5/9.5 while shooting over 40% from three (very similar production to last year on a per minute basis when he made the all star team).  He has performed quite well as the 2nd best player on the current 3rd best team in the East.  That seems like an all star to me.  For the record in 15-16, Love on the season basically averaged 16/10 on 36% from three (in 3 more mpg), so he has been better this year than he was then. 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Monkhouse on January 22, 2018, 01:57:37 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either?  I was merely correcting your incorrect statement.

Thomas is not playing at an all-star level right now. He is shooting 39% from the field and 29% from 3, has been playing bad defense and was described as "killing Cleveland" right now by Windhorst (who is not exactly negative towards Cleveland). So no, it is not a technicality that Thomas is not in the all star game he is not playing all-star ball even though he is now back.

Also, you accuse of me of trolling you and all this other stuff. Lets have a productive actual conversation about this and not try to "correct incorrect statements" with technicalities. The larger point is that, in my opinion, this is the first time since Lebron started his finals run that he has gone through the season without a teammate clearly playing at an all star level.

Irving has been an all-star every year without injury for more than half a decade. Wade was also an all-star every year from 2005-2016. There is not someone at that auto-all-star level every year on this Cleveland team. That is the point I am trying to make for discussion. Do you you agree or disagree with that?
Irving didn't play like an all star when he came back in 15-16 either.  He played 4 games in December and averaged 13 points, 3 assists, and shot 34% from the field (25% from three).  In January he was a bit better but still averaged just 17.2 points, 4 assists, and 3.6 rebounds and got the shooting up to 44.4% from the field but was still just 25.4% from three.  It wasn't until February that Irving regained his sea legs and started to perform like his usual all star level self.  I fully expect Thomas to regain his sea legs and regain that all star form at some point this season.  He just hasn't played very many games this year, and with the Cavs not practicing it will just take some time.

I also believe Kevin Love is an all star level player.  I don't think he should be playing center, as he is a PF, but he is still averaging basically 18.5/9.5 while shooting over 40% from three (very similar production to last year on a per minute basis when he made the all star team).  He has performed quite well as the 2nd best player on the current 3rd best team in the East.  That seems like an all star to me.  For the record in 15-16, Love on the season basically averaged 16/10 on 36% from three (in 3 more mpg), so he has been better this year than he was then.

Will you finally agree with me that Crowder at the 4, and Love at the 5 is just mind boggling? It's not working. Lue needs to stop running with that freakin' lineup.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 22, 2018, 02:11:53 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either?  I was merely correcting your incorrect statement.

Thomas is not playing at an all-star level right now. He is shooting 39% from the field and 29% from 3, has been playing bad defense and was described as "killing Cleveland" right now by Windhorst (who is not exactly negative towards Cleveland). So no, it is not a technicality that Thomas is not in the all star game he is not playing all-star ball even though he is now back.

Also, you accuse of me of trolling you and all this other stuff. Lets have a productive actual conversation about this and not try to "correct incorrect statements" with technicalities. The larger point is that, in my opinion, this is the first time since Lebron started his finals run that he has gone through the season without a teammate clearly playing at an all star level.

Irving has been an all-star every year without injury for more than half a decade. Wade was also an all-star every year from 2005-2016. There is not someone at that auto-all-star level every year on this Cleveland team. That is the point I am trying to make for discussion. Do you you agree or disagree with that?
Irving didn't play like an all star when he came back in 15-16 either.  He played 4 games in December and averaged 13 points, 3 assists, and shot 34% from the field (25% from three).  In January he was a bit better but still averaged just 17.2 points, 4 assists, and 3.6 rebounds and got the shooting up to 44.4% from the field but was still just 25.4% from three.  It wasn't until February that Irving regained his sea legs and started to perform like his usual all star level self.  I fully expect Thomas to regain his sea legs and regain that all star form at some point this season.  He just hasn't played very many games this year, and with the Cavs not practicing it will just take some time.

I also believe Kevin Love is an all star level player.  I don't think he should be playing center, as he is a PF, but he is still averaging basically 18.5/9.5 while shooting over 40% from three (very similar production to last year on a per minute basis when he made the all star team).  He has performed quite well as the 2nd best player on the current 3rd best team in the East.  That seems like an all star to me.  For the record in 15-16, Love on the season basically averaged 16/10 on 36% from three (in 3 more mpg), so he has been better this year than he was then.

Do you think there is a reasonable chance IT never plays in another all-star game? He is about to run 29 and has made only 2 in his career. By comparison Kyrie is about to turn 26 and has already made 5. If IT  even loses a fraction of his quickness/torque ability to finish in traffic from that hip injury he becomes a Jamal Crawford rather than an all-star. I really think that is a distinct possibility. The fact that Lebron's personal media guy is very publicly bashing him is not a good sign.

If Love does make the team this year, he is making it in Mo Williams or Ilgauskas type role as a fringe all-star rather than a dominant player like Irving or Wade (or Bosh). I realize he has some solid counting stats, but you would have to agree his defense has been awful.

 If you truly believe that IT is going to be an all-star level talent in a few months than I can see where you are coming from in your argument that their talent level is close to years past. However, that would be the point we disagree on. 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Moranis on January 22, 2018, 04:48:18 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either?  I was merely correcting your incorrect statement.

Thomas is not playing at an all-star level right now. He is shooting 39% from the field and 29% from 3, has been playing bad defense and was described as "killing Cleveland" right now by Windhorst (who is not exactly negative towards Cleveland). So no, it is not a technicality that Thomas is not in the all star game he is not playing all-star ball even though he is now back.

Also, you accuse of me of trolling you and all this other stuff. Lets have a productive actual conversation about this and not try to "correct incorrect statements" with technicalities. The larger point is that, in my opinion, this is the first time since Lebron started his finals run that he has gone through the season without a teammate clearly playing at an all star level.

Irving has been an all-star every year without injury for more than half a decade. Wade was also an all-star every year from 2005-2016. There is not someone at that auto-all-star level every year on this Cleveland team. That is the point I am trying to make for discussion. Do you you agree or disagree with that?
Irving didn't play like an all star when he came back in 15-16 either.  He played 4 games in December and averaged 13 points, 3 assists, and shot 34% from the field (25% from three).  In January he was a bit better but still averaged just 17.2 points, 4 assists, and 3.6 rebounds and got the shooting up to 44.4% from the field but was still just 25.4% from three.  It wasn't until February that Irving regained his sea legs and started to perform like his usual all star level self.  I fully expect Thomas to regain his sea legs and regain that all star form at some point this season.  He just hasn't played very many games this year, and with the Cavs not practicing it will just take some time.

I also believe Kevin Love is an all star level player.  I don't think he should be playing center, as he is a PF, but he is still averaging basically 18.5/9.5 while shooting over 40% from three (very similar production to last year on a per minute basis when he made the all star team).  He has performed quite well as the 2nd best player on the current 3rd best team in the East.  That seems like an all star to me.  For the record in 15-16, Love on the season basically averaged 16/10 on 36% from three (in 3 more mpg), so he has been better this year than he was then.

Will you finally agree with me that Crowder at the 4, and Love at the 5 is just mind boggling? It's not working. Lue needs to stop running with that freakin' lineup.
I never thought that would work well for any period of time.  Sure against certain lineups that might work (like say the Warriors small ball death lineup), but against most teams that is a bad idea.  Aside from Crowder being a terrible PF, he should be a bench player, which I've been saying for years. 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Moranis on January 22, 2018, 04:54:26 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either?  I was merely correcting your incorrect statement.

Thomas is not playing at an all-star level right now. He is shooting 39% from the field and 29% from 3, has been playing bad defense and was described as "killing Cleveland" right now by Windhorst (who is not exactly negative towards Cleveland). So no, it is not a technicality that Thomas is not in the all star game he is not playing all-star ball even though he is now back.

Also, you accuse of me of trolling you and all this other stuff. Lets have a productive actual conversation about this and not try to "correct incorrect statements" with technicalities. The larger point is that, in my opinion, this is the first time since Lebron started his finals run that he has gone through the season without a teammate clearly playing at an all star level.

Irving has been an all-star every year without injury for more than half a decade. Wade was also an all-star every year from 2005-2016. There is not someone at that auto-all-star level every year on this Cleveland team. That is the point I am trying to make for discussion. Do you you agree or disagree with that?
Irving didn't play like an all star when he came back in 15-16 either.  He played 4 games in December and averaged 13 points, 3 assists, and shot 34% from the field (25% from three).  In January he was a bit better but still averaged just 17.2 points, 4 assists, and 3.6 rebounds and got the shooting up to 44.4% from the field but was still just 25.4% from three.  It wasn't until February that Irving regained his sea legs and started to perform like his usual all star level self.  I fully expect Thomas to regain his sea legs and regain that all star form at some point this season.  He just hasn't played very many games this year, and with the Cavs not practicing it will just take some time.

I also believe Kevin Love is an all star level player.  I don't think he should be playing center, as he is a PF, but he is still averaging basically 18.5/9.5 while shooting over 40% from three (very similar production to last year on a per minute basis when he made the all star team).  He has performed quite well as the 2nd best player on the current 3rd best team in the East.  That seems like an all star to me.  For the record in 15-16, Love on the season basically averaged 16/10 on 36% from three (in 3 more mpg), so he has been better this year than he was then.

Do you think there is a reasonable chance IT never plays in another all-star game? He is about to run 29 and has made only 2 in his career. By comparison Kyrie is about to turn 26 and has already made 5. If IT  even loses a fraction of his quickness/torque ability to finish in traffic from that hip injury he becomes a Jamal Crawford rather than an all-star. I really think that is a distinct possibility. The fact that Lebron's personal media guy is very publicly bashing him is not a good sign.

If Love does make the team this year, he is making it in Mo Williams or Ilgauskas type role as a fringe all-star rather than a dominant player like Irving or Wade (or Bosh). I realize he has some solid counting stats, but you would have to agree his defense has been awful.

 If you truly believe that IT is going to be an all-star level talent in a few months than I can see where you are coming from in your argument that their talent level is close to years past. However, that would be the point we disagree on.
Thomas is obviously not going to average 29 points, but I absolutely think (barring re-injury) that he will start to consistently score 20 a night and shoot in the 36-37% range from three (which is basically his career average) at some point this season, when he gets comfortable with playing again and gets back into game shape.  I mean the last three games, he has scored 19, 21, and 24 shooting 1 of 7, 3 of 10, and 4 of 8 from 3 (so 32%).  In other words, he is starting to find his shooting touch.  He is getting to the line more and shooting pretty darn well from 2 point range. 

He was always a terrible defender, but he is not a terrible offensive player and he is starting to show that again.  He missed months with a hip injury, you don't just step on the court and are back to 100% in a couple of games with that type of injury.  It takes time and Thomas will get there.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 22, 2018, 06:15:03 PM
The hysteria in this thread is pretty amusing...

The Cavs are 20-10 against the Eastern conference, while the 1st seed Celtics are 22-9...

The Cavs have been playing without their starting point-guard all season and are just implementing him now...

If Isaiah Thomas could score 29 ppg and drag his team to the ECF playing with Kelly Olynyk and Amir Johnson, I think he'll probably be ok playing with Kevin Love and the best player in the world Lebron James.

Sheesh...

Yeah, there's this thing called "context" that matters.

Record against top 7 teams in the league (GS, Boston, Houston, Toronto, San Antonio, Minnesota, Cleveland):

Cavs - 1-6

Celtics - 5-1

Granted, I will say that only 2 of their games were at home where 5 of ours were at home, but this has largely been the M.O. of the Cavs this season, especially their winning streak - beat the bad teams to better the record and lose to the good teams. They really don't have any notable wins against good teams this year. Their lone win against a top opponent was us on opening night, which given the circumstances of that game doesn't really count in my mind.

As for the IT comment, it's their defense that has been suffering, which IT will only make worse. He'll probably make their offense better, but how much that will be neutralized by his defensive deficiencies is yet to be seen.
Stop being so logical when responding to the Cleveland apologists  ;D

If context is what matters, recall that this same discussion has been had each of the past few seasons.  Yet the Cavs reached the Finals every one of them.   I'd argue it's less logical to place more weight on several months of data versus several years of data.  But hey, knock yourself out.  ;)


You realize your argument is self-refuting, right? With context mattering, the fact that the context of this season is much, much different than the last several seasons means your argument makes no sense and refutes itself.

1) No Kyrie --> Major Change in Context

2) Implementing two new starters into the equation --> Major Change in Context

3) Implementing your new second/third best player that is heavily ball-dominant into your starting lineup halfway into the season --> Major Change in Context

4) Figuring out how to deal with IT being a walking mismatch defensively that will be exploited all playoffs long, as Westbrook did today --> Major Change in Context

5) Somehow getting an even older team this year that is even worse defensively --> Major Change in Context

And that's beside the point that this whole narrative of "they always do this" is a revamped version of the appeal to tradition logical fallacy.

The entirety of my argument is "LeBron James."  I'd bank on that more than aging, line-up changes, injuries, etc.  You can get hung up on new details every season.  There's always going to be changes and new challenges, and superstars can transcend them. 

I don't know what traditional logical fallacy means,  but I can't grasp how my argument is self-refuting when it's based in several years of evidence. People create doubt every year, and a lot of it is substantiated, but every year they prove the doubters wrong.  The game is dominated by top talent, and for as much as I can't wait to dethrone him, the ECF still goes through CLE until otherwise proven.

Because it's based on evidence that isn't analogous. All of the factors I listed above are changes to the fundamental context of the situation, so trying to argue from past experiences to predict this experience is then illogical given the fundamentally different contexts.

For example, it's like me trying to argue that since Obama didn't Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency, then we should also not expect Trump to Tweet something ignorant and immature every two to three days during his presidency. However, this is an illogical analogical argument, because the fundamental contexts (i.e. the two presidents' characters) are not analogous enough to justify drawing this conclusion.

Things have changed so much (for the worse) that it's fallacious and illogical to simply point to the past and expect the same results; it's literally "apples and oranges."

This is some your best work man. Great post. It is also interesting to note that even Lebron James himself came out tonight and said if they don't figure some things out they will be eliminated quickly.

Lol.  I agree, best work yet.  Have fun guys.
Tar Heels you have some good points as well. I do think there are lots of interesting sides to this debate. I think there is about a 60% chance that Lebron is only cavs all star this year. The last time Lebron was only all star on his team was before his finals streak began
he was the only allstar in 2015-6 when Cleveland won the NBA title

That is obviously a technicality because Irving was injured. Considering that is the only time Irving didn't play in the game in any season between 2013-2018 and hit the game winning shot in the finals this feels like a silly technicality to point out.

Also, I'll add this could be a moot point, cause Love may make the game this year. I thought he was kind of a lock but I have seen some writers raking him over the coals and saying he doesn't make it for his defense, which some attribute to him being the biggest reason for their defensive issues over the year (although there are lots of contributors).
And Thomas was injured this year, is that not a technicality either?  I was merely correcting your incorrect statement.

Thomas is not playing at an all-star level right now. He is shooting 39% from the field and 29% from 3, has been playing bad defense and was described as "killing Cleveland" right now by Windhorst (who is not exactly negative towards Cleveland). So no, it is not a technicality that Thomas is not in the all star game he is not playing all-star ball even though he is now back.

Also, you accuse of me of trolling you and all this other stuff. Lets have a productive actual conversation about this and not try to "correct incorrect statements" with technicalities. The larger point is that, in my opinion, this is the first time since Lebron started his finals run that he has gone through the season without a teammate clearly playing at an all star level.

Irving has been an all-star every year without injury for more than half a decade. Wade was also an all-star every year from 2005-2016. There is not someone at that auto-all-star level every year on this Cleveland team. That is the point I am trying to make for discussion. Do you you agree or disagree with that?
Irving didn't play like an all star when he came back in 15-16 either.  He played 4 games in December and averaged 13 points, 3 assists, and shot 34% from the field (25% from three).  In January he was a bit better but still averaged just 17.2 points, 4 assists, and 3.6 rebounds and got the shooting up to 44.4% from the field but was still just 25.4% from three.  It wasn't until February that Irving regained his sea legs and started to perform like his usual all star level self.  I fully expect Thomas to regain his sea legs and regain that all star form at some point this season.  He just hasn't played very many games this year, and with the Cavs not practicing it will just take some time.

I also believe Kevin Love is an all star level player.  I don't think he should be playing center, as he is a PF, but he is still averaging basically 18.5/9.5 while shooting over 40% from three (very similar production to last year on a per minute basis when he made the all star team).  He has performed quite well as the 2nd best player on the current 3rd best team in the East.  That seems like an all star to me.  For the record in 15-16, Love on the season basically averaged 16/10 on 36% from three (in 3 more mpg), so he has been better this year than he was then.

Do you think there is a reasonable chance IT never plays in another all-star game? He is about to run 29 and has made only 2 in his career. By comparison Kyrie is about to turn 26 and has already made 5. If IT  even loses a fraction of his quickness/torque ability to finish in traffic from that hip injury he becomes a Jamal Crawford rather than an all-star. I really think that is a distinct possibility. The fact that Lebron's personal media guy is very publicly bashing him is not a good sign.

If Love does make the team this year, he is making it in Mo Williams or Ilgauskas type role as a fringe all-star rather than a dominant player like Irving or Wade (or Bosh). I realize he has some solid counting stats, but you would have to agree his defense has been awful.

 If you truly believe that IT is going to be an all-star level talent in a few months than I can see where you are coming from in your argument that their talent level is close to years past. However, that would be the point we disagree on.
Thomas is obviously not going to average 29 points, but I absolutely think (barring re-injury) that he will start to consistently score 20 a night and shoot in the 36-37% range from three (which is basically his career average) at some point this season, when he gets comfortable with playing again and gets back into game shape.  I mean the last three games, he has scored 19, 21, and 24 shooting 1 of 7, 3 of 10, and 4 of 8 from 3 (so 32%).  In other words, he is starting to find his shooting touch.  He is getting to the line more and shooting pretty darn well from 2 point range. 

He was always a terrible defender, but he is not a terrible offensive player and he is starting to show that again.  He missed months with a hip injury, you don't just step on the court and are back to 100% in a couple of games with that type of injury.  It takes time and Thomas will get there.

I think it would be a fair take to think he joins the list of players (Evan Turner, Crowder, Jordan Crawford off top of head) that never looked as good on other teams as they did for Boston. With Bradley and Smart playing a lot of minutes alongside them IT was in the best position to have his defensive issues masked some. Without playing alongside somebody like that, can he play long enough to average 20 points? Right now even when his shooting comes around a little bit it seems the best hope would be that he could be a break even player. That isn't going to be an all-star. I also think it is a little bit strange to hold up his 24 point scoring game against OKC as some sort of success when he was playing a significant role in the Thunder scoring 148 and he was on the court when they got absolutely roasted in the first quarter and were down 33-14 after the 8 minutes he played.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 22, 2018, 07:01:34 PM
Windhorst reporting that IT could be available at the trade deadline.

EDIT: Granted, thatís a soft ďcould,Ē and itíd have to be a good deal for them.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 22, 2018, 07:05:04 PM
Windhorst reporting that IT could be available at the trade deadline.
DPE??? ;)
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on January 22, 2018, 07:05:51 PM
Windhorst reporting that IT could be available at the trade deadline.

I hope he loves his new home and turns into a defensive stalwart because he's read all of your criticisms.  How do you like those apples?
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 22, 2018, 07:07:07 PM
Windhorst reporting that IT could be available at the trade deadline.

I hope he loves his new home and turns into a defensive stalwart because he's read all of your criticisms.  How do you like those apples?

Oh man. I honestly feel back for IT at this point. Him getting passed around again at the trading deadline would be pretty tough 30 games before he hits free agency coming off an injury with new team doctors.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 22, 2018, 07:10:06 PM
Also, on The Jump Windhorst stated that the team is frustrated with IT offensively and how heís playing (i.e. shooting so much, especially shooting this poorly). But guys, remember, Lue clearly wasnít referring to IT with his ďagendaĒ comments.  ;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TOJV46IPkO4

EDIT: And given that Windhorst is Lebronís unofficial mouthpiece, this is pretty interesting.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on January 22, 2018, 07:11:53 PM
Windhorst reporting that IT could be available at the trade deadline.

I hope he loves his new home and turns into a defensive stalwart because he's read all of your criticisms.  How do you like those apples?

Oh man. I honestly feel back for IT at this point. Him getting passed around again at the trading deadline would be pretty tough 30 games before he hits free agency coming off an injury with new team doctors.

Yep, I do too.  But his next destination would probably be better for him than the trainwreck in CLE.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: TheisTheisBaby on January 22, 2018, 07:14:11 PM
Windhorst reporting that IT could be available at the trade deadline. Granted, thatís a soft ďcould,Ē and itíd have to be a good deal for them.

EDIT: Also, on The Jump Windhorst stated that the team is frustrated with IT offensively and how heís playing (i.e. shooting so much, especially shooting this poorly). But guys, remember, Lue clearly wasnít referring to IT with his agenda comments.  ;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TOJV46IPkO4

Has there ever been a reporter with a more creepy obsession than Windhorst has had with Lebron?  A guy who no matter what the player does verbally fellates him?  Nick Wright is getting close with his infatuation with Lebron but he's more of a TV personality. 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 22, 2018, 07:14:39 PM
Windhorst reporting that IT could be available at the trade deadline.

I hope he loves his new home and turns into a defensive stalwart because he's read all of your criticisms.  How do you like those apples?

Oh man. I honestly feel back for IT at this point. Him getting passed around again at the trading deadline would be pretty tough 30 games before he hits free agency coming off an injury with new team doctors.

Yep, I do too.  But his next destination would probably be better for him than the trainwreck in CLE.

Yeah, Iíve said all along that I hated that fit. I still think he ends up a Laker this summer on a big deal after they strike out on their pipe dream of George and James.

Thatíd put you into a pretty tough bind, huh Tar? Lol Your favorite player on our biggest rival?
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 22, 2018, 07:15:35 PM
Also, on The Jump Windhorst stated that the team is frustrated with IT offensively and how heís playing (i.e. shooting so much, especially shooting this poorly). But guys, remember, Lue clearly wasnít referring to IT with his ďagendaĒ comments.  ;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TOJV46IPkO4

EDIT: And given that Windhorst is Lebronís unofficial mouthpiece, this is pretty interesting.

His contract situation is ruining everything for him. He is pressing and shooting much and is not healthy yet.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on January 22, 2018, 07:16:04 PM
Also, on The Jump Windhorst stated that the team is frustrated with IT offensively and how heís playing (i.e. shooting so much, especially shooting this poorly). But guys, remember, Lue clearly wasnít referring to IT with his ďagendaĒ comments.  ;)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TOJV46IPkO4

EDIT: And given that Windhorst is Lebronís unofficial mouthpiece, this is pretty interesting.

On AOL sports, Saul reported that CLE is thrilled with IT as a player and person. 

https://youtu.be/-09ayPX_KVs
 (https://youtu.be/-09ayPX_KVs)
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on January 22, 2018, 07:18:30 PM
Windhorst reporting that IT could be available at the trade deadline.

I hope he loves his new home and turns into a defensive stalwart because he's read all of your criticisms.  How do you like those apples?

Oh man. I honestly feel back for IT at this point. Him getting passed around again at the trading deadline would be pretty tough 30 games before he hits free agency coming off an injury with new team doctors.

Yep, I do too.  But his next destination would probably be better for him than the trainwreck in CLE.

Yeah, Iíve said all along that I hated that fit. I still think he ends up a Laker this summer on a big deal after they strike out on their pipe dream of George and James.

Thatíd put you into a pretty tough bind, huh Tar? Lol Your favorite player on our biggest rival?

He would be in a good position there.  Eh, I still love the dude and what he did for the Celtics, but the request for a tribute video to be played at a more convenient time was poor form imo.  Lost a bit respect for him there.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 22, 2018, 07:35:31 PM
Windhorst reporting that IT could be available at the trade deadline.

I hope he loves his new home and turns into a defensive stalwart because he's read all of your criticisms.  How do you like those apples?

Oh man. I honestly feel back for IT at this point. Him getting passed around again at the trading deadline would be pretty tough 30 games before he hits free agency coming off an injury with new team doctors.

Yep, I do too.  But his next destination would probably be better for him than the trainwreck in CLE.

Yeah, Iíve said all along that I hated that fit. I still think he ends up a Laker this summer on a big deal after they strike out on their pipe dream of George and James.

Thatíd put you into a pretty tough bind, huh Tar? Lol Your favorite player on our biggest rival?

He would be in a good position there.  Eh, I still love the dude and what he did for the Celtics, but the request for a tribute video to be played at a more convenient time was poor form imo.  Lost a bit respect for him there.

Eh, I actually thought that was blown out of the water, while being poorly mismanaged by the organization and Danny.

It makes sense why he would want to change the date to when he was actually playing and had family there; however, as soon as he realized it was Pierce's day he should've moved on. The whole thing got blown out of the water and made everyone involved look bad.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on January 22, 2018, 08:02:03 PM
Windhorst reporting that IT could be available at the trade deadline.

I hope he loves his new home and turns into a defensive stalwart because he's read all of your criticisms.  How do you like those apples?

Oh man. I honestly feel back for IT at this point. Him getting passed around again at the trading deadline would be pretty tough 30 games before he hits free agency coming off an injury with new team doctors.

Yep, I do too.  But his next destination would probably be better for him than the trainwreck in CLE.

Yeah, Iíve said all along that I hated that fit. I still think he ends up a Laker this summer on a big deal after they strike out on their pipe dream of George and James.

Thatíd put you into a pretty tough bind, huh Tar? Lol Your favorite player on our biggest rival?

He would be in a good position there.  Eh, I still love the dude and what he did for the Celtics, but the request for a tribute video to be played at a more convenient time was poor form imo.  Lost a bit respect for him there.

Eh, I actually thought that was blown out of the water, while being poorly mismanaged by the organization and Danny.

It makes sense why he would want to change the date to when he was actually playing and had family there; however, as soon as he realized it was Pierce's day he should've moved on. The whole thing got blown out of the water and made everyone involved look bad.

Yeah the organization botched it.  Guess it depends on his intentions.  Just kind of hard for me to believe that he wasn't taking a jab at Ainge.  And maybe thats what prompted the 08 guys to speak out. 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 22, 2018, 10:03:26 PM
Woj bomb: The Cleveland Cavaliers held an emotional team meeting prior to Mondayís practice, where several players challenged the legitimacy of Kevin Love leaving OKC loss on Saturday ill and missing Sundayís practice, league sources tell ESPN.


Uh-oh. Wonder if he's one of the "agenda" guys Lue mentioned a few days back.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticinorlando on January 22, 2018, 10:11:25 PM
You have James, Wade and their guys in one corner....IT in the other and Love in the third. This team hates each other

Now you see why Kyrie wanted out
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Vox_Populi on January 22, 2018, 10:17:55 PM
It'd be hilarious if Isaiah were Woj's source.

Anyway, I'm amazed Irving asked for a trade - or it was known he asked for a trade - before Kevin Love. I always thought Love would be the first of the Big 3 to go.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: fairweatherfan on January 22, 2018, 10:19:24 PM
You have James, Wade and their guys in one corner....IT in the other and Love in the third. This team hates each other

Now you see why Kyrie wanted out

Regardless of how it ultimately turns out for us, Kyrie looks very smart for getting himself out of that toxic locker room.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: nickagneta on January 22, 2018, 10:31:30 PM
You have James, Wade and their guys in one corner....IT in the other and Love in the third. This team hates each other

Now you see why Kyrie wanted out

Regardless of how it ultimately turns out for us, Kyrie looks very smart for getting himself out of that toxic locker room.
Some of the criticism aimed at him for being a "me first" type player and person for wanting to be traded away from a team with Lebron on it looks pretty lame now.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: TheLegendaryClub on January 22, 2018, 10:35:14 PM
I don't think you can single out any one person to blame; there may be issues with IT, Lue's coaching, Love's relationship with teammates, etc, but I still think the Cavs disfunction is mostly an issue of design. The team is full of egos and guys who are past their prime, so naturally they have severe accountability problems. Plenty of analysts had that concern going into the season, and it's clearly proven to be an issue.

Maybe Love will ask to be moved, but I still think IT gets shipped out of town. Seems like it's been a tense fit with him from the beginning- remember how the Cavs wanted the Celtics to throw extra assets into the deal after they'd already agreed on it in principle, based on the notion that IT was "soiled goods"? I doubt floating that claim that made IT feel wanted or welcome.

If he's jacking up shots and playing selfishly right now, it's not surprising-- the Cavs culture doesn't suit him, and vice versa. They're not going to pay him this summer, so he'll be gone one way or another. Might as well try and trade him by the deadline for a useful piece, hopefully one that would appease Lebron.

They could (and probably should) try to deal IT for Kemba Walker, but it would certainly cost them the Brooklyn pick.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on January 22, 2018, 10:47:52 PM
You have James, Wade and their guys in one corner....IT in the other and Love in the third. This team hates each other

Now you see why Kyrie wanted out

Regardless of how it ultimately turns out for us, Kyrie looks very smart for getting himself out of that toxic locker room.
Some of the criticism aimed at him for being a "me first" type player and person for wanting to be traded away from a team with Lebron on it looks pretty lame now.

There's two sides to that.  To be fair, he embraced that persona after the trade. For example, in his interview with Kellerman, he stated that his motivation to leave was his desire to "perfect his craft."  He then responded to questions in a self-centered, childlike way -- with questions, or one word answers -- when asked if he "cared at all" about LeBron potentially having his feelings hurt.  It's easy to see how some thought of him as selfish (even trade demand aside).  That he was arrogant, condescending, and disrespectful throughout the interview just verified that. 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Phantom255x on January 22, 2018, 10:52:28 PM
Kevin Love should tell the team to "F OFF" and DEMAND a trade.

Seriously, he's been their 2nd best player this season and now his teammates are turning on him?

JR Smith is GARBAGE. Thompson is GARBAGE. Wade, Korver and others are corpses out there. Isaiah has been injured. Besides Lebron, who else is really carrying this Cavs team? That's right, K. Love.

Yes, his defense has taken a hit, but he's still a walking double-double out there. IF the Cavaliers are really going to make him one of the scapegoats in all this, Love should demand out. And I CAN'T WAIT for that to happen!  ;D
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: nickagneta on January 22, 2018, 11:10:52 PM
You have James, Wade and their guys in one corner....IT in the other and Love in the third. This team hates each other

Now you see why Kyrie wanted out

Regardless of how it ultimately turns out for us, Kyrie looks very smart for getting himself out of that toxic locker room.
Some of the criticism aimed at him for being a "me first" type player and person for wanting to be traded away from a team with Lebron on it looks pretty lame now.

There's two sides to that.  To be fair, he embraced that persona after the trade. For example, in his interview with Kellerman, he stated that his motivation to leave was his desire to "perfect his craft."  He then responded to questions in a self-centered, childlike way -- with questions, or one word answers -- when asked if he "cared at all" about LeBron potentially having his feelings hurt.  It's easy to see how some thought of him as selfish (even trade demand aside).  That he was arrogant, condescending, and disrespectful throughout the interview just verified that.
That interview looks a lot better given what we have seen coming out of Cleveland. Irving could have unloaded on Lebron and Cleveland. Irving was bombarded with questions about Lebron ans Cleveland and didn't want to answer them. He, in his own weird political way, avoided the questions or said little.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 22, 2018, 11:16:49 PM
(https://media.giphy.com/media/z9AUvhAEiXOqA/giphy.gif)

Cavs fans on Twitter during this whole debacle this season.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Phantom255x on January 22, 2018, 11:19:45 PM
The more the Pelicans and Clippers win, the worse for Cleveland.

The only guys that can truly thread the needle for them is DeMarcus Cousins, or a package of DeAndre Jordan + Lou Williams. BUT if the Clippers and Pelicans aren't sellers (which looks likely), then who else is there for CLE to get that could actually thread the needle. Certainly not the George Hill's of the league lol.

Now are the Cavs that desperate that they'd move Isaiah + BKN Pick for Kemba?
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: tarheelsxxiii on January 22, 2018, 11:46:38 PM
You have James, Wade and their guys in one corner....IT in the other and Love in the third. This team hates each other

Now you see why Kyrie wanted out

Regardless of how it ultimately turns out for us, Kyrie looks very smart for getting himself out of that toxic locker room.
Some of the criticism aimed at him for being a "me first" type player and person for wanting to be traded away from a team with Lebron on it looks pretty lame now.

There's two sides to that.  To be fair, he embraced that persona after the trade. For example, in his interview with Kellerman, he stated that his motivation to leave was his desire to "perfect his craft."  He then responded to questions in a self-centered, childlike way -- with questions, or one word answers -- when asked if he "cared at all" about LeBron potentially having his feelings hurt.  It's easy to see how some thought of him as selfish (even trade demand aside).  That he was arrogant, condescending, and disrespectful throughout the interview just verified that.
That interview looks a lot better given what we have seen coming out of Cleveland. Irving could have unloaded on Lebron and Cleveland. Irving was bombarded with questions about Lebron ans Cleveland and didn't want to answer them. He, in his own weird political way, avoided the questions or said little.

I thought it was a bad look, and that's not to discount that they're all probably difficult to play with -- LeBron seems brutal, IT brought all his baggage, JR Smith... , Love has been the poor scapegoat.  Lue must have had his hands full.       
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Surferdad on January 23, 2018, 06:56:45 AM
You have James, Wade and their guys in one corner....IT in the other and Love in the third. This team hates each other

Now you see why Kyrie wanted out

Regardless of how it ultimately turns out for us, Kyrie looks very smart for getting himself out of that toxic locker room.
Some of the criticism aimed at him for being a "me first" type player and person for wanting to be traded away from a team with Lebron on it looks pretty lame now.

There's two sides to that.  To be fair, he embraced that persona after the trade. For example, in his interview with Kellerman, he stated that his motivation to leave was his desire to "perfect his craft."  He then responded to questions in a self-centered, childlike way -- with questions, or one word answers -- when asked if he "cared at all" about LeBron potentially having his feelings hurt.  It's easy to see how some thought of him as selfish (even trade demand aside).  That he was arrogant, condescending, and disrespectful throughout the interview just verified that.
That interview looks a lot better given what we have seen coming out of Cleveland. Irving could have unloaded on Lebron and Cleveland. Irving was bombarded with questions about Lebron ans Cleveland and didn't want to answer them. He, in his own weird political way, avoided the questions or said little.
I'm fully on board with that point-of-view.  He said less, and that's always a good thing if you are treading through questions designed to put you on the spot.

Top players in this league have a lot of power and generally control where they play -- James, Durant, Paul, Irving. 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: apc on January 23, 2018, 10:18:13 AM
Checking out the Cavs blog . Many of them think IT is Wojís source .
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: CelticsElite on January 23, 2018, 03:08:50 PM
Kevin love might get snubbed as an all star. He never complains. Being treated like a joke by players. He needs to ask out
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: CelticsElite on January 23, 2018, 03:26:36 PM
 Cleveland Cavaliers coach Tyronn Lue says the Cavs' explosive team meeting before Monday's practice needs to result in better play on the court or else it will amount to meaningless talk.

"I don't know if it was needed, but now we got to do something about it," Lue said at Cleveland's shootaround Tuesday morning in preparation for the San Antonio Spurs. "Do a lot of talking, but we got to play better. We got to execute better offensively. We got to execute better defensively. We got to be better collectively.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 23, 2018, 05:53:20 PM
Wow, it was IT that called out Love? What the? why? this makes no sense...

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/248700/Isaiah-Thomas-Took-Lead-Calling-Out-Kevin-Love-During-Cavs-Meeting
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: SHAQATTACK on January 23, 2018, 06:19:30 PM
Wow, it was IT that called out Love? What the? why? this makes no sense...

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/248700/Isaiah-Thomas-Took-Lead-Calling-Out-Kevin-Love-During-Cavs-Meeting


His fault not mine....trying to save my Brink 's.  truck  contract
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: rondofan1255 on January 25, 2018, 01:09:49 PM
Quote
Ty Lue says Tristan Thompson will start at center, Kevin Love goes back to the 4 and Jae Crowder will come off the bench.

https://twitter.com/JasonLloydNBA/status/956585467427815430

Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on January 25, 2018, 01:17:10 PM
Quote
Ty Lue says Tristan Thompson will start at center, Kevin Love goes back to the 4 and Jae Crowder will come off the bench.

https://twitter.com/JasonLloydNBA/status/956585467427815430

That may help them. Same lineup as last season with IT instead of Kyrie. This is what I thought would be the lineup from the moment IT was healthy enough. I always thought Jae would be LBJs backup.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 25, 2018, 01:19:43 PM
Quote
Ty Lue says Tristan Thompson will start at center, Kevin Love goes back to the 4 and Jae Crowder will come off the bench.

https://twitter.com/JasonLloydNBA/status/956585467427815430

That may help them. Same lineup as last season with IT instead of Kyrie. This is what I thought would be the lineup from the moment IT was healthy enough. I always thought Jae would be LBJs backup.

I think this has a shot at working, but I also am really questioning whether TT is not focused on basetball living the Kardashian life. His advanced stats were terrible pre-injury
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Moranis on January 25, 2018, 01:30:30 PM
Quote
Ty Lue says Tristan Thompson will start at center, Kevin Love goes back to the 4 and Jae Crowder will come off the bench.

https://twitter.com/JasonLloydNBA/status/956585467427815430

That may help them. Same lineup as last season with IT instead of Kyrie. This is what I thought would be the lineup from the moment IT was healthy enough. I always thought Jae would be LBJs backup.

I think this has a shot at working, but I also am really questioning whether TT is not focused on basetball living the Kardashian life. His advanced stats were terrible pre-injury
His rates/percentages are all about the same as last year. 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: hpantazo on January 25, 2018, 01:34:49 PM
My guess, and yes, its pure speculation, is that IT is focused on getting his stats first and foremost, to maximize his chances at a big contract this summer. In turn, the Cavs defense is nowhere near as good at covering his defensive liabilities, and when teammates call him out on it he throws others under the bus by saying the team worked harder at defense in Boston. Well yeah, but the defense in Boston was also designed to hide his lack of ability.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: jpotter33 on January 25, 2018, 01:41:10 PM
Iíve been calling for them to move back to that lineup for some time now. Itís pretty crazy that itís taken Lue this long to make that change since TT has been back.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Monkhouse on January 25, 2018, 02:06:14 PM
Iíve been calling for them to move back to that lineup for some time now. Itís pretty crazy that itís taken Lue this long to make that change since TT has been back.

Me too..

If anyone thinks Crowder and Love are going to somehow become fantastic defenders outside of their position, then whoever thought of that is smoking some really good fantastic herb.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 25, 2018, 02:52:02 PM
Quote
Ty Lue says Tristan Thompson will start at center, Kevin Love goes back to the 4 and Jae Crowder will come off the bench.

https://twitter.com/JasonLloydNBA/status/956585467427815430

That may help them. Same lineup as last season with IT instead of Kyrie. This is what I thought would be the lineup from the moment IT was healthy enough. I always thought Jae would be LBJs backup.

I think this has a shot at working, but I also am really questioning whether TT is not focused on basetball living the Kardashian life. His advanced stats were terrible pre-injury
His rates/percentages are all about the same as last year.

I'm taking this from the Cavs forum, but these stats are from before his recent return:

With Thompson (>10min):
Record: 7-14
PF: 105.3
PA: 112
Diff: -6.7

Without Thompson (<10min):
Record: 19-3
PF: 113.5
PA: 105.7
Diff: +7.8

There is a reason all the Cavs fan have turned on this guy... (http://realcavsfans.com/community/index.php?threads/tristan-thompson.38304/page-1259)

Lots of greats stats on him this year in that thread. Do you just argue anything I say at this point regardless of what you really think? I feel like i could say this sky looks blue today and you would tell me because the blue light from the sun's rays bends more than red light.

For fun, some cavs quotes on Thompson:

"The correlation between TT coming back and the complete demise of what we saw before he came back in terms of ball movement and beautiful offensive sets, and solid team defense, can't be understated.

TT is just a horrible fit for this team, period. Add to that the attempt to integrate the horribly failing IT and you get the kinds of losses and blow-outs we've been witnessing.

They can't move this guy off the team soon enough. Get a real rim protector who can score even a little (besides put-backs) and it changes the entire dynamic of the team."


"Our time with TT has ended - trade him. There's got to be some value for him out there. Sell the point that he's "a great offensive rebounder" and neglect to tell them he has awful hands / can't shoot / horrific at free throws and I'm sure we'll find a deal!"

"TTs number are fools gold. Even when he occasionally has games now that he gets some offensive rebounds he has so many negatives that it off sets what he does. Literally, how many times does he miss point blank shots at the rim if the dunk isn't there? He misses defensive assignments (yes everyone on this team does but he has nothing else to offer), and he is not a good defensive rebounder no matter what anyone says. Just watch the game.

He is a see ball, go get ball type of rebounder which works on the offensive boards, but getting position and boxing your man out before releasing to get the ball is the way to get defensive rebounds. Watch TT in a crowd when the other teams shot goes up and lots of times he isn't making contact with anyone then goes after the rebound. Maybe bigger more athletic people like DJ can get away with this."


"I really wonder if there are any teams out there that will look at him and say "this is a guy we can turn back into an offensive rebounding force." He had a couple positive attributes that really worked for him: o rebounding, being able to move laterally for switching purposes, blocking the occasional shot, and good hands for lobs at the rim. In virtually every other way, he was a mediocre basketball player. Now, most of the positives have massively eroded. Who's going to want him, even if his salary was half what it currently is?"


Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: guava_wrench on January 25, 2018, 03:38:24 PM
That TT contract was the beginning of the end.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Monkhouse on January 25, 2018, 03:51:13 PM
That TT contract was the beginning of the end.

At the end of the day, it's all Lebron's fault anyways...
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: hpantazo on January 25, 2018, 03:56:54 PM
That TT contract was the beginning of the end.

At the end of the day, it's all Lebron's fault anyways...

Yes it was. The Thompson contract, the JR Smith contract, Lue as head coach, and even trading Wiggins for Love were all because of what Lebron wanted. Signing Wade was likely also due to Lebron.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: cman88 on January 25, 2018, 04:25:52 PM
That TT contract was the beginning of the end.

At the end of the day, it's all Lebron's fault anyways...

Yes it was. The Thompson contract, the JR Smith contract, Lue as head coach, and even trading Wiggins for Love were all because of what Lebron wanted. Signing Wade was likely also due to Lebron.

pretty much this. Lebron wants to be the coach and GM. Those contracts including the one to Korver were given because LEBRON pushed for them. they also fired Blatt because he wasnt a puppet like Lue.

now they are stuck with an old/disjointed roster with a horrible coach.

Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Monkhouse on January 25, 2018, 05:11:31 PM
That TT contract was the beginning of the end.

At the end of the day, it's all Lebron's fault anyways...

Yes it was. The Thompson contract, the JR Smith contract, Lue as head coach, and even trading Wiggins for Love were all because of what Lebron wanted. Signing Wade was likely also due to Lebron.

pretty much this. Lebron wants to be the coach and GM. Those contracts including the one to Korver were given because LEBRON pushed for them. they also fired Blatt because he wasnt a puppet like Lue.

now they are stuck with an old/disjointed roster with a horrible coach.

Thing is I don't think Lebron will ever make a good coach or GM.

Just like Kobe, Lebron reminds me of too much of an egotistical maniac. And pretty sure he would seek validation from his peers through negative reinforcement.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: rondofan1255 on January 25, 2018, 05:21:13 PM
That TT contract was the beginning of the end.

At the end of the day, it's all Lebron's fault anyways...

Yes it was. The Thompson contract, the JR Smith contract, Lue as head coach, and even trading Wiggins for Love were all because of what Lebron wanted. Signing Wade was likely also due to Lebron.

I wonder if the same happened with Shumpertís contract.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 25, 2018, 05:48:35 PM
That TT contract was the beginning of the end.

At the end of the day, it's all Lebron's fault anyways...

Yes it was. The Thompson contract, the JR Smith contract, Lue as head coach, and even trading Wiggins for Love were all because of what Lebron wanted. Signing Wade was likely also due to Lebron.

I wonder if the same happened with Shumpertís contract.

it certainly feels like Lebron is his own worst enemy right now.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: BringToughnessBack on January 25, 2018, 05:53:03 PM
Kyrie forced his way out of that city for reasons that appear to becoming clearer by the day. Imagine being a player on a team with a few more years left on your contract and the superstar, Lebron, that got you here or that you came here to play with, is in the last year of his deal and is not committing to staying. Plus, his super ego cannot be the easiest to deal with. That truly must inspire you to want to play as hard as possible with him night in and night out.

Yes, I know they are professionals but they are also human beings. I know if I would leave my current company and go work with an another all-star CEO(my CEO is amazing by the way) and then I signed on for a few year commitment and then found out the CEO that brought me to them, is leaving before I leave, it would not exactly make me feel more motivated. Human nature would make you feel misled or deceived and dejected.

IT loved Boston, most of us, loved him. He then got dumped on them for an amazing player, Kyrie...Now he is 2nd fiddle or maybe even 3rd, to Lebron, King of wherever he goes. He landed on a team with major defensive deficiencies that magnify his even more on that side of the ball. He is not allowed to shoot the ball a zillion times per game anymore and he is on his way to being a free agent. Sounds like fun. Plus, it is Lebron's team(as it should be) and not a "Celtics" team where he can shine like the star he became in our city. Plus, he had a coach who crafted perfect game plans to  magnify his strengths and hide his weaknesses.

Crowder, a tough, grind it out kind of player lands on a new team with no consistent defense. He grew into his own in Boston and now he is on Lebron's team, not a Celtics "team"- Plus, his skills seem to be off the past year or so.

Love has never been comfortable on that team. He too, went from first fiddle to third fiddle since he has been there and every time something goes wrong, he seems to get the wrath of other players or the King himself. Stay out of the lane Love, it is Lebron's property...

Unfortunately though, they do still have the King of everything  and when the playoffs roll around, his inner fire will take over most games. Only a true team  of grit and schemes will be able to take them out and that team will need a 4th quarter silencer who rises up in big times (cough...Kyrie...cough....). The difference though as of now, is that Lebron's team defense has gotten noticeably worse as of now...they are a great coach and team away from ending his streak of a zillion finals in a row. One can hope  8)
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 25, 2018, 06:45:33 PM
Tristan thompson on the utopia known as the cavs locker room:

Thompson's answer when asked about the current state of Cavs' locker room was far more revealing.

"Finger-pointing? Just because y'all are reporting everything doesn't mean that's facts, unless someone was in there snitching," Thompson said in references to multiple reports about a fiery team meeting the Cavs had before practice Monday. "But I wouldn't say it's finger-pointing. I think we all have to be better. Everyone has to look in the mirror and be 1 percent better for the team. That will help us out a lot."

Thompson went on to say that team camaraderie is overblown in the results-driven NBA.

"I mean, you go to work every day, and you might not like a guy," Thompson said. "You might not like the guy you work with. So it's part of life, but at the end of the day when we're between these lines, we got to play for one another and that's all that matters. I don't care if X don't like X off the court. I really don't give a s---. As long as you're on the court playing hard and playing for each other, that's all that matters to me. We don't got to talk to each other off the court. As long as we talk on the court, on the defensive end, that's all that matters to me."

Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: hpantazo on January 25, 2018, 07:31:20 PM
Tristan thompson on the utopia known as the cavs locker room:

Thompson's answer when asked about the current state of Cavs' locker room was far more revealing.

"Finger-pointing? Just because y'all are reporting everything doesn't mean that's facts, unless someone was in there snitching," Thompson said in references to multiple reports about a fiery team meeting the Cavs had before practice Monday. "But I wouldn't say it's finger-pointing. I think we all have to be better. Everyone has to look in the mirror and be 1 percent better for the team. That will help us out a lot."

Thompson went on to say that team camaraderie is overblown in the results-driven NBA.

"I mean, you go to work every day, and you might not like a guy," Thompson said. "You might not like the guy you work with. So it's part of life, but at the end of the day when we're between these lines, we got to play for one another and that's all that matters. I don't care if X don't like X off the court. I really don't give a s---. As long as you're on the court playing hard and playing for each other, that's all that matters to me. We don't got to talk to each other off the court. As long as we talk on the court, on the defensive end, that's all that matters to me."


Only 1 percent?
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Moranis on January 26, 2018, 08:26:42 AM
Tristan thompson on the utopia known as the cavs locker room:

Thompson's answer when asked about the current state of Cavs' locker room was far more revealing.

"Finger-pointing? Just because y'all are reporting everything doesn't mean that's facts, unless someone was in there snitching," Thompson said in references to multiple reports about a fiery team meeting the Cavs had before practice Monday. "But I wouldn't say it's finger-pointing. I think we all have to be better. Everyone has to look in the mirror and be 1 percent better for the team. That will help us out a lot."

Thompson went on to say that team camaraderie is overblown in the results-driven NBA.

"I mean, you go to work every day, and you might not like a guy," Thompson said. "You might not like the guy you work with. So it's part of life, but at the end of the day when we're between these lines, we got to play for one another and that's all that matters. I don't care if X don't like X off the court. I really don't give a s---. As long as you're on the court playing hard and playing for each other, that's all that matters to me. We don't got to talk to each other off the court. As long as we talk on the court, on the defensive end, that's all that matters to me."


Only 1 percent?
That falls inline with the Cavs belief they aren't that far away and just need a few changes.  It may be an incorrect belief, but they seem to believe they are pretty close to where they need to be.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Roy H. on January 26, 2018, 10:35:07 AM
There are so many competing agendas.

One report says Lebron didnít want Kyrie traded, and told management to call his bluff. Another says Lebron is angry because he wanted the Cavs to trade for George and Bledsoe.

Itís a toxic circus.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Donoghus on January 26, 2018, 10:36:52 AM
There are so many competing agendas.

One report says Lebron didnít want Kyrie traded, and told management to call his bluff. Another says Lebron is angry because he wanted the Cavs to trade for George and Bledsoe.

Itís a toxic circus.

So, I guess, even if only 25% of the stuff floating out there is true, why would Lebron want to resign and come back to this next year & beyond?

End of the road for his time in CLE has to be coming up soon, right?
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Roy H. on January 26, 2018, 10:39:18 AM
There are so many competing agendas.

One report says Lebron didnít want Kyrie traded, and told management to call his bluff. Another says Lebron is angry because he wanted the Cavs to trade for George and Bledsoe.

Itís a toxic circus.

So, I guess, even if only 25% of the stuff floating out there is true, why would Lebron want to resign and come back to this next year & beyond?

End of the road for his time in CLE has to be coming up soon, right?

Yeah, no one is going to want to play for Sacramento East. This is too much drama even for Lebron.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Moranis on January 26, 2018, 10:54:03 AM
There are so many competing agendas.

One report says Lebron didnít want Kyrie traded, and told management to call his bluff. Another says Lebron is angry because he wanted the Cavs to trade for George and Bledsoe.

Itís a toxic circus.

So, I guess, even if only 25% of the stuff floating out there is true, why would Lebron want to resign and come back to this next year & beyond?

End of the road for his time in CLE has to be coming up soon, right?
both of those could in fact be true, since the George rumors centered on Love and Bledsoe was basically traded for peanuts in the end (despite the early rumors where he was involved in Kyrie trades).
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 26, 2018, 03:05:51 PM
There are so many competing agendas.

One report says Lebron didnít want Kyrie traded, and told management to call his bluff. Another says Lebron is angry because he wanted the Cavs to trade for George and Bledsoe.

Itís a toxic circus.

So, I guess, even if only 25% of the stuff floating out there is true, why would Lebron want to resign and come back to this next year & beyond?

End of the road for his time in CLE has to be coming up soon, right?

Yeah, no one is going to want to play for Sacramento East. This is too much drama even for Lebron.

It would be cool for the NBA if he agreed to wave his trade clause privately and got moved at the deadline (obviously a 1 in a million chance). That team is just so stale, they are not even fun to watch.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Ory on January 26, 2018, 03:10:23 PM
Can they just sell the team and relocate to Seattle already?
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Moranis on January 28, 2018, 10:06:56 PM
2-0 since the lineup change.  Thompson and Love have both played pretty well in those games so it may have worked
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: KGs Knee on January 28, 2018, 10:14:30 PM
2-0 since the lineup change.  Thompson and Love have both played pretty well in those games so it may have worked

I'll still never quite understand why they thought it was a good idea to start Love at C.

I'll need to see a lot more from them before I buy they've fixed their defensive woes, but I've also never ruled out them out as being capable of making the Finals regardless of their defense.

Any team with LeBron is a threat to make the Finals.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: the TRUTH on January 29, 2018, 02:26:46 AM
That TT contract was the beginning of the end.

At the end of the day, it's all Lebron's fault anyways...

Please tell me you're joking. Nothing has ever been LeBron's fault. Any time his team loses or struggles, his teammates, coaches or front office are to blame, but not him. He doesn't get any calls from the refs, and his career has been one struggle after another, starting with the $100 million Nike contract he signed before he ever played a single game in the NBA. 

By all accounts, he's done a ton of great things in the community off the court and appears to be a good person. But purely in the context of basketball and basketball-related activities, he's easily the most delusional and obnoxious star athlete I've ever seen.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 29, 2018, 12:10:37 PM
2-0 since the lineup change.  Thompson and Love have both played pretty well in those games so it may have worked

I'll still never quite understand why they thought it was a good idea to start Love at C.

I'll need to see a lot more from them before I buy they've fixed their defensive woes, but I've also never ruled out them out as being capable of making the Finals regardless of their defense.

Any team with LeBron is a threat to make the Finals.

I think the headline from espn on their pacers win described it as underwhelming. They struggled all day yesterday with the pistons who have been in complete free fall for a month since Jackson got hurt. Are we also not mentioning that Isaiah Thomas got benched the entire 4th yesterday?
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Phantom255x on January 29, 2018, 12:20:01 PM
The Cavaliers really only have only one way to thread the needle in a series vs. GSW, and that's trading for the duo of DeAndre Jordan + Lou Williams.

Otherwise, George Hill and others alike help only a little but don't thread the needle.

Cousins getting injured also hurts CLE if they wanted to go after him (Cousins DEFINITELY would have threaded the needle for them as well).
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Monkhouse on January 29, 2018, 12:21:04 PM
The Cavaliers really only have only one way to thread the needle in a series vs. GSW, and that's trading for the duo of DeAndre Jordan + Lou Williams.

Otherwise, George Hill and others alike help only a little but don't thread the needle.

Cousins getting injured also hurts CLE if they wanted to go after him (Cousins DEFINITELY would have threaded the needle for them as well).

I think going after AB, and bringing in Jordan could also work.

But yes going after Hill doesn't seem like a smart idea, plus why even bring in Hill lol.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Phantom255x on January 29, 2018, 12:22:43 PM
The Cavaliers really only have only one way to thread the needle in a series vs. GSW, and that's trading for the duo of DeAndre Jordan + Lou Williams.

Otherwise, George Hill and others alike help only a little but don't thread the needle.

Cousins getting injured also hurts CLE if they wanted to go after him (Cousins DEFINITELY would have threaded the needle for them as well).

I think going after AB, and bringing in Jordan could also work.

But yes going after Hill doesn't seem like a smart idea, plus why even bring in Hill lol.

Actually yes, you're right. Ugh hope AB doesn't go to CLE. Hope OKC or Clippers trade for him instead.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: mmmmm on January 29, 2018, 12:38:18 PM
2-0 since the lineup change.  Thompson and Love have both played pretty well in those games so it may have worked

I'll still never quite understand why they thought it was a good idea to start Love at C.



Their thinking behind that move was that, with a starting back-court of Rose & Wade (at the start of the season) they needed to have shooting from all 3 front-court positions.  So they benched Thomson and started Love-Crowder-Lebron.

Obviously, that didn't work out, but for a ton of different reasons, most of them having to do with players other than Love himself.   Crowder's missing shot.  Rose' injury.  Thomson's injury.  The fossilization of several players on the roster, etc., etc.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Moranis on January 29, 2018, 12:41:04 PM
2-0 since the lineup change.  Thompson and Love have both played pretty well in those games so it may have worked

I'll still never quite understand why they thought it was a good idea to start Love at C.

I'll need to see a lot more from them before I buy they've fixed their defensive woes, but I've also never ruled out them out as being capable of making the Finals regardless of their defense.

Any team with LeBron is a threat to make the Finals.

I think the headline from espn on their pacers win described it as underwhelming. They struggled all day yesterday with the pistons who have been in complete free fall for a month since Jackson got hurt. Are we also not mentioning that Isaiah Thomas got benched the entire 4th yesterday?
the backups and James were working so Thompson told Lue to leave them out there.  Love was the only other starter (along with James) that played at all in the 4th quarter yesterday (and Love came in very late).  I actually like that sort of move from Lue.  He stayed with what worked rather than letting egos get in the way. 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 29, 2018, 12:47:50 PM
2-0 since the lineup change.  Thompson and Love have both played pretty well in those games so it may have worked

I'll still never quite understand why they thought it was a good idea to start Love at C.

I'll need to see a lot more from them before I buy they've fixed their defensive woes, but I've also never ruled out them out as being capable of making the Finals regardless of their defense.

Any team with LeBron is a threat to make the Finals.

I think the headline from espn on their pacers win described it as underwhelming. They struggled all day yesterday with the pistons who have been in complete free fall for a month since Jackson got hurt. Are we also not mentioning that Isaiah Thomas got benched the entire 4th yesterday?
the backups and James were working so Thompson told Lue to leave them out there.  Love was the only other starter (along with James) that played at all in the 4th quarter yesterday (and Love came in very late).  I actually like that sort of move from Lue.  He stayed with what worked rather than letting egos get in the way.

I'm just a bit confused why you are impressed by these two wins. One a lottery team and one the 7 seed. They have been able to beat the bad to mediocre teams all year. Their issue is playing the rockets, thunder, warriors,raptors etc. I don't think any lineup change is going to solve that. They need to trade
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 29, 2018, 12:48:53 PM
The Cavaliers really only have only one way to thread the needle in a series vs. GSW, and that's trading for the duo of DeAndre Jordan + Lou Williams.

Otherwise, George Hill and others alike help only a little but don't thread the needle.

Cousins getting injured also hurts CLE if they wanted to go after him (Cousins DEFINITELY would have threaded the needle for them as well).

I think going after AB, and bringing in Jordan could also work.

But yes going after Hill doesn't seem like a smart idea, plus why even bring in Hill lol.

Actually yes, you're right. Ugh hope AB doesn't go to CLE. Hope OKC or Clippers trade for him instead.

I really hope they don't get AB. That would help them a lot
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Moranis on January 29, 2018, 02:13:42 PM
2-0 since the lineup change.  Thompson and Love have both played pretty well in those games so it may have worked

I'll still never quite understand why they thought it was a good idea to start Love at C.

I'll need to see a lot more from them before I buy they've fixed their defensive woes, but I've also never ruled out them out as being capable of making the Finals regardless of their defense.

Any team with LeBron is a threat to make the Finals.

I think the headline from espn on their pacers win described it as underwhelming. They struggled all day yesterday with the pistons who have been in complete free fall for a month since Jackson got hurt. Are we also not mentioning that Isaiah Thomas got benched the entire 4th yesterday?
the backups and James were working so Thompson told Lue to leave them out there.  Love was the only other starter (along with James) that played at all in the 4th quarter yesterday (and Love came in very late).  I actually like that sort of move from Lue.  He stayed with what worked rather than letting egos get in the way.

I'm just a bit confused why you are impressed by these two wins. One a lottery team and one the 7 seed. They have been able to beat the bad to mediocre teams all year. Their issue is playing the rockets, thunder, warriors,raptors etc. I don't think any lineup change is going to solve that. They need to trade
Love and Thompson both looked a lot better the last 2 games then they had recently.  And the Pacers were 3-0 against the Cavs entering the game on Friday.  And any team that is 4-11 in their last 15 winning 2 straight is a positive (and those 4 were Orlando twice, Chicago, an Portland). 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 29, 2018, 02:59:05 PM
2-0 since the lineup change.  Thompson and Love have both played pretty well in those games so it may have worked

I'll still never quite understand why they thought it was a good idea to start Love at C.

I'll need to see a lot more from them before I buy they've fixed their defensive woes, but I've also never ruled out them out as being capable of making the Finals regardless of their defense.

Any team with LeBron is a threat to make the Finals.

I think the headline from espn on their pacers win described it as underwhelming. They struggled all day yesterday with the pistons who have been in complete free fall for a month since Jackson got hurt. Are we also not mentioning that Isaiah Thomas got benched the entire 4th yesterday?
the backups and James were working so Thompson told Lue to leave them out there.  Love was the only other starter (along with James) that played at all in the 4th quarter yesterday (and Love came in very late).  I actually like that sort of move from Lue.  He stayed with what worked rather than letting egos get in the way.

I'm just a bit confused why you are impressed by these two wins. One a lottery team and one the 7 seed. They have been able to beat the bad to mediocre teams all year. Their issue is playing the rockets, thunder, warriors,raptors etc. I don't think any lineup change is going to solve that. They need to trade
Love and Thompson both looked a lot better the last 2 games then they had recently.  And the Pacers were 3-0 against the Cavs entering the game on Friday.  And any team that is 4-11 in their last 15 winning 2 straight is a positive (and those 4 were Orlando twice, Chicago, an Portland).

I guess. Their issues are playing against good teams. They have proven repeatedly they can beat  lower end playoff teams and lottery teams all season (it's embarrassing they were 0-3 against pacers, funny stat)

If your larger point is that they are no longer at the same level as they were and they should be pleased with any kind of win, I can agree with that
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Moranis on January 29, 2018, 04:10:21 PM
My larger point is only that if Thompson and Love play like they have the last 2 weeks and they get Thomas back healthy, then they are the clear team to beat in the East.  They do need both of those things to happen though. 

Remember the Cavs were the 29th rated defense after the all star game last year, and ended up the 3rd rated defense in the playoffs.  They are a team that has the ability to really turn it on because they have Lebron James. 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 29, 2018, 04:25:41 PM
My larger point is only that if Thompson and Love play like they have the last 2 weeks and they get Thomas back healthy, then they are the clear team to beat in the East.  They do need both of those things to happen though. 

Remember the Cavs were the 29th rated defense after the all star game last year, and ended up the 3rd rated defense in the playoffs.  They are a team that has the ability to really turn it on because they have Lebron James.

I think there is a good chance 2 of the 3 players you mentioned won't be on the team in the playoffs. I hope they think like you though and lee them all. Also what are you talking about 2 weeks? A week ago they were getting blown out on national tv and love left "sick." Their last game before yesterday love threw his warmups at jeff greens face (pretended it was a joke later) and handed IT the ball like he was a toddler. You want more of that ? Me too
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Moranis on January 29, 2018, 04:46:13 PM
My larger point is only that if Thompson and Love play like they have the last 2 weeks and they get Thomas back healthy, then they are the clear team to beat in the East.  They do need both of those things to happen though. 

Remember the Cavs were the 29th rated defense after the all star game last year, and ended up the 3rd rated defense in the playoffs.  They are a team that has the ability to really turn it on because they have Lebron James.

I think there is a good chance 2 of the 3 players you mentioned won't be on the team in the playoffs. I hope they think like you though and lee them all. Also what are you talking about 2 weeks? A week ago they were getting blown out on national tv and love left "sick." Their last game before yesterday love threw his warmups at jeff greens face (pretended it was a joke later) and handed IT the ball like he was a toddler. You want more of that ? Me too
players get sick.  happens.  I don't see any real problem with that.  I'd rather have the guy try to tough it out then not play at all.  I think Love was pretty clearly joking on the Jeff Green thing.  I see teammates do that sort of thing all the time with each other, but because it is the Cavs it becomes a big story. 

They clearly have some dysfunction, but I do think a lot of it is the lack of playing of time they have had with each other as a result of the injuries (and Thomas still not being back to healthy doesn't help).  I mean Wade has been out and Rose has been playing.  They just haven't had any consistency at all with their roster. 

I don't see Thompson, Love, or Thomas getting traded unless it is for a real star and I don't think those trades are out there.  Guys like Bradley, Hill, etc. they don't need to trade starters to acquire.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: celticsclay on January 30, 2018, 10:28:33 PM
My larger point is only that if Thompson and Love play like they have the last 2 weeks and they get Thomas back healthy, then they are the clear team to beat in the East.  They do need both of those things to happen though. 

Remember the Cavs were the 29th rated defense after the all star game last year, and ended up the 3rd rated defense in the playoffs.  They are a team that has the ability to really turn it on because they have Lebron James.

I think there is a good chance 2 of the 3 players you mentioned won't be on the team in the playoffs. I hope they think like you though and lee them all. Also what are you talking about 2 weeks? A week ago they were getting blown out on national tv and love left "sick." Their last game before yesterday love threw his warmups at jeff greens face (pretended it was a joke later) and handed IT the ball like he was a toddler. You want more of that ? Me too
players get sick.  happens.  I don't see any real problem with that.  I'd rather have the guy try to tough it out then not play at all.  I think Love was pretty clearly joking on the Jeff Green thing.  I see teammates do that sort of thing all the time with each other, but because it is the Cavs it becomes a big story. 

They clearly have some dysfunction, but I do think a lot of it is the lack of playing of time they have had with each other as a result of the injuries (and Thomas still not being back to healthy doesn't help).  I mean Wade has been out and Rose has been playing.  They just haven't had any consistency at all with their roster. 

I don't see Thompson, Love, or Thomas getting traded unless it is for a real star and I don't think those trades are out there.  Guys like Bradley, Hill, etc. they don't need to trade starters to acquire.

If they don't make a trade I don't think this team makes it out of the first round. Tonight was probably one of their worst losses in last 4 years
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Phantom255x on January 30, 2018, 10:32:50 PM
My larger point is only that if Thompson and Love play like they have the last 2 weeks and they get Thomas back healthy, then they are the clear team to beat in the East.  They do need both of those things to happen though. 

Remember the Cavs were the 29th rated defense after the all star game last year, and ended up the 3rd rated defense in the playoffs.  They are a team that has the ability to really turn it on because they have Lebron James.

I think there is a good chance 2 of the 3 players you mentioned won't be on the team in the playoffs. I hope they think like you though and lee them all. Also what are you talking about 2 weeks? A week ago they were getting blown out on national tv and love left "sick." Their last game before yesterday love threw his warmups at jeff greens face (pretended it was a joke later) and handed IT the ball like he was a toddler. You want more of that ? Me too
players get sick.  happens.  I don't see any real problem with that.  I'd rather have the guy try to tough it out then not play at all.  I think Love was pretty clearly joking on the Jeff Green thing.  I see teammates do that sort of thing all the time with each other, but because it is the Cavs it becomes a big story. 

They clearly have some dysfunction, but I do think a lot of it is the lack of playing of time they have had with each other as a result of the injuries (and Thomas still not being back to healthy doesn't help).  I mean Wade has been out and Rose has been playing.  They just haven't had any consistency at all with their roster. 

I don't see Thompson, Love, or Thomas getting traded unless it is for a real star and I don't think those trades are out there.  Guys like Bradley, Hill, etc. they don't need to trade starters to acquire.

If they don't make a trade I don't think this team makes it out of the first round. Tonight was probably one of their worst losses in last 4 years

The East honestly looks intriguing this year. Like, I don't think there would be ANY easy first round opponents for any of the Top-4 teams. Heat, Wizards (healthy Wall), Bucks and Sixers (healthy Embiid) are no pushovers and could easily give any of the teams a run for their money, including CLE.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: GreenEnvy on January 30, 2018, 10:33:31 PM
Drummond 21/21/6/3/3 and counting. What a game.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: GreenEnvy on January 30, 2018, 10:39:56 PM
Just saw IT shots 3-10 with 6 turnovers and a team-low -25.... things could get very ugly in CLE real quick.

Feel bad for the little guy. I hope he gets out of there soon and has his career resume the trajectory Brad put him on.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Phantom255x on January 30, 2018, 10:42:03 PM
Just saw IT shots 3-10 with 6 turnovers and a team-low -25.... things could get very ugly in CLE real quick.

Feel bad for the little guy. I hope he gets out of there soon and has his career resume the trajectory Brad put him on.

I kind of hope they trade him away to another team.

And it's not because I'm rooting for him to fail, but because he needs to GET OUT of that toxic environment. He deserves his money. Not saying he's a max guy but he is definitely a 16-18M/Year player.

Same with Kevin Love. Love is their 2nd best player and yet the rest of the team trashes on him. Sad.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: Sophomore on January 30, 2018, 10:46:51 PM
Drummond 21/21/6/3/3 and counting. What a game.

To be honest Iím hoping we donít play the Pistons in the playoffs. Such a tough matchup for us.

If we get a scorer by trade (Lou or Tyreke) I hope we can grab Dedmond as a buyout for the TPE.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: GreenEnvy on January 30, 2018, 10:55:10 PM
Just saw IT shots 3-10 with 6 turnovers and a team-low -25.... things could get very ugly in CLE real quick.

Feel bad for the little guy. I hope he gets out of there soon and has his career resume the trajectory Brad put him on.

I kind of hope they trade him away to another team.

And it's not because I'm rooting for him to fail, but because he needs to GET OUT of that toxic environment. He deserves his money. Not saying he's a max guy but he is definitely a 16-18M/Year player.

Same with Kevin Love. Love is their 2nd best player and yet the rest of the team trashes on him. Sad.

I hope they do too. But I doubt they can get anything close to value for him at his contract. They could try trading him with Thompson for someone with a lower ceiling, but getting rid of that contract. But with Love being sidelined, they need a big. Cleveland is in a very bad spot.

I think IT, when healthy, is worth a lot more than $16-18M. I donít know if heís a super max guy, but if guys like Teague ($19M/yr), Hill ($19M/yr), Holiday ($26M/yr), etc. can get those contracts, IT definitely deserves significantly more than the likes of Rubio, Schroeder, Parker, Bledsoe, Dragic, and Jackson (all of whom are in the $15M range).

We know heís not healthy yet. Letís see how close he can get to last years version, which was pretty sensational (on a winning team no less, with no clear cut 2nd scoring option).
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: jaketwice on January 30, 2018, 11:11:29 PM
Without Love, they're going to lose some games. James can't play 40 minutes a night.
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: TheisTheisBaby on January 31, 2018, 12:08:06 AM
Without Love, they're going to lose some games. James can't play 40 minutes a night.

James "WON'T" play 40 minutes a night.  Big difference.  Just another in the long line of reasons he's not on the same level as Larry Bird. 
Title: Re: McMenanim: Cavs players don't think current roster can compete (Merged)
Post by: chilidawg on January 31, 2018, 12:21:40 AM
Without Love, they're going to lose some games. James can't play 40 minutes a night.

James "WON'T" play 40 minutes a night.  Big difference.  Just another in the long line of reasons he's not on the same level as Larry Bird.

James is averaging 37 minutes per game, 3rd in the league.  There's lots of reasons not to like him, but that's not one of them.