CelticsStrong

Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: ballin on January 07, 2018, 04:10:03 PM

Title: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: ballin on January 07, 2018, 04:10:03 PM
With half the season in the books, I think it's been established that Marcus Smart needs to go.

Our offense, to put it frankly, is horrible for a #1 seed. Our defense is obviously spectacular, of which Marcus Smart is a major contributor, but the reality is that we're not currently championship material. If we can't hang up more than 87 points on the Nets like we did yesterday, then there's no way that we're going to be a threat in the playoffs to teams like GS or Cleveland.

To get this out of the way, we can all acknowledge that our offense will get better when Hayward returns, particularly because he'll reduce Morris' minutes, who has been another sore spot in our lackluster offense with his 40% shooting. And, I would be remiss to mention the fact we're starting a rookie and a sophomore, both of whom will continue to polish their offensive skills over time. We'll be better on offense next year, and by a significant margin I would bet. We'll also be giving the guys just another year to gel.

But those facts shouldn't get in the way of analyzing Smart. When you look at what he brings to the table, you really need to evaluate both sides of the court. The question is ultimately this: is what he gives you on defense worth what he takes away on offense?

The status all point to no. Smart isn't just "bad" on offense... he's a catastrophic failure. Saying he's terrible is putting it mildly... he's in the midst of one of the worst offensive seasons in NBA history, and the scary part is that he has been regressing every year since he entered the league. Think about that for a second. Is that the kind of trend you want to be millions of dollars on? His sole job has been to improve his shooting, and he's failed at that. He also showed up last year with an unhealthy amount of weight (major red flag, imo), and he hasn't shown the self awareness he needs to limit his shooting.

The reason he was told to launch the ball was so that he could improve his percentages over time. Unfortunately, that failed. This might really p--- some people off, but what I'm seeing right now are shades of Rondo and Jared Sullinger - guys who have ceased trending in the correct direction and who we'd likely be better off moving on from. If anyone is ambitious enough to check my comment history, I was absolutely CLAMORING for us to get away from those guys before we finally did. And once we traded Rondo (who had stopped trying to even compete), we got better. And once we let Sullinger go, he was out of the league in a season or two. Smart's in the same position. If any other team pays him I promise you he'll look very, very bad as he continues to chuck the ball without all of the team success to support the "winning plays" voodoo that seems to invigorate his defenders.

As of today, Marcus Smart is 304th out of 467 players in real plus minus, which is insane for a team that currently occupies the #1 seed. While RPM obvious has its flaws, its flaw is usually OVERRATING bad players on good teams. And it's supposed to be the catch-all stat that captures all of the "intangibles". Sadly, Smart is coming up short on all measurements.

I don't know how to say this any other way - Smart has blown it. If we resign him, we're going to hamper our offense to the point where I doubt we win a championship while he players more than 15 minutes a game. If we don't, I'd actually be willing to bet he's out of the league in a couple of years because he's just not an NBA-level talent on offense. At this point I wouldn't want him for any amount of money.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Granath on January 07, 2018, 04:23:58 PM
I suggest you learn how to sort. Marcus Smart is 144th in RPM, not 304th. He's also 25th in +/- (+184) and 72nd in WINS (2.37).

Please continue with your rant.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: shrinkage36 on January 07, 2018, 04:26:00 PM
We're easily tops in the East and this is your rant? Okay
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 07, 2018, 04:29:44 PM
I can't argue with his ill-timed and ineffective shooting in the 1st 3 quarters, but Marcus would be a tremendous asset to a championship team as a defensive 6th/7th guy, spot starter, and a game finisher.

His 4th quarter intensity, defense and passing have been terrific.  I don't need stats to tell me that he is an asset on the floor at the end of games.  He shoots far less when there are scorers on the court with him, but he's been adequate as a scorer in the 4th as well.  Also, his FT shooting is good enough for him to be in the game when it's on the line (so to speak). 

I respect your opinion, but I don't consider Smart a failure at all.  I think teams will be competing for his services in the off-season (providing offers).  I wouldn't back up the Brink's Truck for him, but I definitely want to keep him. 

And... he's 23.  He may not improve his shooting, but he'll continue to get smarter.  He's grown noticeably smarter as a defensive player and as a distributor.  His drives to the hoop are more reliable because teams know he effectively dishes and lofts.  I wish he'd finish better -- but that's one of the reasons he's a mid-level contract guy.  EDIT: By "mid-level" I don't mean MLE - I mean 10-15M.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: green_bballers13 on January 07, 2018, 04:38:19 PM
Nah, you're wrong. His tryout isn't over. He still has a 1/2 season + playoffs before the Celtics need to make a decision.

It's understandable to see strong opinions for polarizing players. I'm sure that Danny still has to see how he plays with this current team during the playoffs before he makes Marcus a big offer.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Jiri Welsch on January 07, 2018, 04:51:22 PM
The early front runner for our Chicken Little Worst Post of the Year is....

This one!
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Ilikesports17 on January 07, 2018, 05:06:09 PM
Lol
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Darío SpanishFan on January 07, 2018, 05:45:09 PM
This made me laugh. And cry.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Sketch5 on January 07, 2018, 05:51:41 PM
While Smarts shooting hasn't been anything to write home about, he's been good the last couple weeks. Even sparked the offense a couple times when they were struggling. Also didn't he win us the Huston game just on his D alone. How many players can do that in the NBA?

While Roziers offense is better, Smart gets a little more down and dirty. And come playoff time thats what you need. Is he ever going to be a full time starter? Who knows. But he's the type of guy you want off the bench in a championship run.

He also seems to hit the big shots down the stretch more often than not. What the team needs is more bench scoring, because he tends to have all of it on his sholders, and as good as Tatum has been he hasn't been able to step up as the second unit leader, which is understandable.

Good thing is, with crappy shooting, his contract may be team friendly. :)
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Ogaju on January 07, 2018, 05:55:11 PM
tough crowd here, it doesnt help though when the two players you compare him to are one that could not shoot or play defense and the other ate himself out of the league.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: 2short on January 07, 2018, 06:20:46 PM
It's good to see that the rondo hate can be transferred to other players.

I for one am very happy to have Marcus on the team. 
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: ImShakHeIsShaq on January 07, 2018, 06:30:50 PM
Another day another trade "_____" thread. That is the real failure!
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: GreenFaith1819 on January 07, 2018, 06:40:50 PM
Yeah he failed James Harden, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utWSs_rVvi8
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: nickagneta on January 07, 2018, 06:47:42 PM
Let's not forget that amazing stat that the Celtics offense is like 3.4 points per 48 better when Marcus is on the floor as compared to when he is off. Yeah, it doesn't seem to make sense that such a poor shooter makes the offense better, but that is what is happening.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: CelticD on January 07, 2018, 06:49:40 PM
All advanced analytics aside, Smart is my least favorite Celtic easily. He has been such a disappointment coming into the season. He said it was a new him. He was hitting half court shots with fairly good consistency, he said he lost weight so he was more explosive.

But I've just seen more of the same. He's still the sub 30% 3-point shooter with no lift he's been for the majority of his basketball career.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: hwangjini_1 on January 07, 2018, 06:55:49 PM
tough crowd here, it doesnt help though when the two players you compare him to are one that could not shoot or play defense and the other ate himself out of the league.
as for the offense, i think getting hayward back, tatum with more experience, and a good draft pick will change a lot.

33-10 without hayward, and that is not good enough. tough crowd indeed.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: PhoSita on January 07, 2018, 07:01:43 PM
... and yet he makes the team better when he plays, period.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: csfansince60s on January 07, 2018, 07:56:43 PM
Mahcus Smaht........WINNAH!!!!

Hope he stays!
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: 2short on January 07, 2018, 07:58:35 PM
tough crowd here, it doesnt help though when the two players you compare him to are one that could not shoot or play defense and the other ate himself out of the league.
as for the offense, i think getting hayward back, tatum with more experience, and a good draft pick will change a lot.

33-10 without hayward, and that is not good enough. tough crowd indeed.
Most peculiar momma
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: GreenEnvy on January 07, 2018, 09:41:01 PM
The bottom line is we are 6-2 against the rest of the top-7 teams in basketball. Smart may take some ill-advised shots, but he’s also willing to hoist up last second prayers. I appreciate a guy who really doesn’t care what his FG% is. He’s capable of hitting any shot. He doesn’t take contested shots. He’s a little too erratic at times, but overall I don’t believe he forces too much.

We are also 3-0 against Brooklyn. We didn’t have a Horford last night and the Nets were 10-0 when holding opponents below 100 this year, so our defense was as spectacular as our offense was terrible.

The Celtics may not be the favorites but I wouldn’t count them out against any team. Whenever we get Hayward back, the offense will be significantly better.

I don’t hate the Rozier/Smart backup backcourt. If you can stagger rotations to get Hayward or Horford in with them, they can effectively run the offense.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: unclebay on January 07, 2018, 10:30:53 PM
LOL at this thread. You want some clicks
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Scintan on January 08, 2018, 12:59:03 AM
He's a lousy shooter, but a quality defender.  He'll most likely be gone after the season's over.  It won't be because he failed.  It'll be because he gets a bigger contract offer from another team.  He'll be missed on the court.

He'll serve as one more reminder, out of oh so many, of why having a punitive salary cap, instead of just a salary floor, sucks.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: SparzWizard on January 08, 2018, 01:29:47 AM
As much as Smart likes to irritate me from time to time, Brad Stevens does the assessing and teaching and Danny Ainge does the execution.

Lol at post.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Androslav on January 08, 2018, 03:20:43 AM
While stats can certainly be very unfavorable to Marcus, I'd like to know who is a better defender than him on our team before he goes. We are planning a deep playoff run this year.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Granath on January 08, 2018, 08:09:05 AM
tough crowd here, it doesnt help though when the two players you compare him to are one that could not shoot or play defense and the other ate himself out of the league.

Not really, Ogaju. Not only were his comparisons laughable, the only metric he provided to back up his rant was wrong because he doesn't know how to sort a table. If someone is going to throw a player under the bus on a 33-10 team, they might want to back it up with some facts.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 08, 2018, 08:35:49 AM
Quote
I don't know how to say this any other way - Smart has blown it. If we resign him, we're going to hamper our offense to the point where I doubt we win a championship while he players more than 15 minutes a game. If we don't, I'd actually be willing to bet he's out of the league in a couple of years because he's just not an NBA-level talent on offense. At this point I wouldn't want him for any amount of money.

I 'll take this bet.   The few years, I will give you three years.   So if he is the league in three years would be the bet.  Now what to make the stake.   Do you want to put your money where your mouth is, because I think three years from now barring death, legal issues or injuries he will be in the league.  By money, I am speaking figuratively, of course because I am sure we have rules against betting cash.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Roy H. on January 08, 2018, 08:48:56 AM
The OP has some points. Offensively, Marcus hasn’t really improved. He “is what he is” at this point in all likelihood.  He should be paid with that in mind, rather than on potential.

But, if we can fit him in our budget, he’s an important player.  He’s like a smaller, less efficient version of Andre Iguodala (since he joined the Warriors, anyway). He plays great defense, moves the ball, and is a guy you want in there in the fourth quarter.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: playdream on January 08, 2018, 09:03:16 AM
Guess people forgetting last year ECF game 3 quickly 8)
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: triboy16f on January 08, 2018, 09:53:42 AM
The OP has some points. Offensively, Marcus hasn’t really improved. He “is what he is” at this point in all likelihood.  He should be paid with that in mind, rather than on potential.

But, if we can fit him in our budget, he’s an important player.  He’s like a smaller, less efficient version of Andre Iguodala (since he joined the Warriors, anyway). He plays great defense, moves the ball, and is a guy you want in there in the fourth quarter.

and less explosive also

8-9 million per season is what i would give Smart.  If he rejects then I would let him walk

He prob got this type of offer from Danny a few months ago.....

He won't be back next season imo
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: colincb on January 08, 2018, 10:00:35 AM
The OP has some points. Offensively, Marcus hasn’t really improved. He “is what he is” at this point in all likelihood.  He should be paid with that in mind, rather than on potential.

But, if we can fit him in our budget, he’s an important player.  He’s like a smaller, less efficient version of Andre Iguodala (since he joined the Warriors, anyway). He plays great defense, moves the ball, and is a guy you want in there in the fourth quarter.

Iguodala is a far better player than Smart and Smart will not be on the floor next year at the end of games unless he's taking Brown's spot. While he moves the ball, he also has the second worst turnover rate on the team to Theis who is well known for having turnover issues.

Smart has the lowest total shooting percentage of anyone in the NBA who has played as many minutes, shoots worse in wins than losses, and shoots worse in the 4th quarter compared to the rest of the game. He also has the worst assist/turnover ratio of the three primary ball-handling guards. His fans really underplay just how bad his shooting woes have been. They also overstate his +/- numbers consistently. He is playing a lot with the starters and there is a clear divide between that group and the rest of the team. He plays a lot with the starters because Morris cannot stay on the court and Smart has more positional versatility than Rozier in a defense that switches constantly.

Smart is a very good defender, but we have many very good defenders this year though none have the grit he does. Right now, Rozier has passed him overall as a player and even has a better defensive rating although that is a suspect stat. With Hayward coming back, I do not see how we keep Smart assuming the player FA market is not frozen because of severe league-wide cap constraints.

That being said, I do not agree with the OP either. Smart has improved recently and has half a season and the playoffs to go. He is among the top 10 bench players, as is Rozier, for minutes played and I am sure the audition is not over. Anything is possible, especially if the price is right.


Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: ChillyWilly on January 08, 2018, 10:05:06 AM
Have to admit the Marcus Smart fan club is loud and proud. Enjoy this season it will be his last in green no matter what you think of him.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Roy H. on January 08, 2018, 10:09:31 AM
Quote
Iguodala is a far better player than Smart

Current Iguodala? I’m curious why you think “far better”.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Androslav on January 08, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
Quote
Iguodala is a far better player than Smart

Current Iguodala? I’m curious why you think “far better”.
Maybe not even better at all, Iggy has fallen off a bit this year.
We won't know the answer until we see them in the playoffs.
The only true litmus paper test.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Fafnir on January 08, 2018, 11:13:12 AM
I really do think that Marcus has great value given his versatility and ability to the run the PG position for our team at a high level even with his own shooting struggles.

I have no idea how the league overall values him. I'd like to keep him but with Rozier and the other high lottery pick from the Kings/Lakers likely coming in I can see us moving on. I will be bummed if it happens.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: playdream on January 08, 2018, 11:29:05 AM
His 3 pointer is improving and he can now drive and finish or lob , he can defend 5 position and can run the offense, clutch, have grit and energy
It's hard but i will choose Smart over Rozier definetly
If we can't keep him it's because someone throw the brink truck at him
 
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: chiken Green on January 08, 2018, 03:20:55 PM
How does this even work..

We are 33 - 10  with the number 1 defense in the league.. This team is built on Defense..  Smart is the heart and soul of our Defense (possibly of the whole team) and you want him off the team because he can't shoot 3's to your liking..

To make things even more interesting - you suggest that Smart will be out of the league in 3 years ignoring a player like Tony Allen who is on year 14 year..

Something Definitely has failed here.. Not sure that it is Smart though.

Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Neurotic Guy on January 08, 2018, 05:11:00 PM
Have to admit the Marcus Smart fan club is loud and proud. Enjoy this season it will be his last in green no matter what you think of him.

Good chance you are correct. Or... he may still be here.  Those continue to be the two options. 
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Surferdad on January 08, 2018, 05:18:54 PM
With half the season in the books, I think it's been established that Marcus Smart needs to go.
...
By whom?  This is where I stopped reading the OP.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Celtics4ever on January 08, 2018, 05:43:00 PM
He has only failed if you think he was going to be a superstar.   I 've known since his rookie year that he was not going to be a great scorer.   There is just no consistency in his shot.    But he is a gamer who makes plays that win games.   I love to have him back for the right price.   Other teams guard him when he is in the game still despite his terrible shooting.   That makes him less a problem.

Quote
The OP has some points. Offensively, Marcus hasn’t really improved. He “is what he is” at this point in all likelihood.  He should be paid with that in mind, rather than on potential.

Agree, but funny how he was not willing to bet anything when confronted with the absurdity that Smart won't be in the league in three years.   
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Jiri Welsch on January 08, 2018, 05:52:40 PM
To say that Marcus Smart hasn’t improved—generally, as in no facets of his game have improved—is asinine.

Sure his shooting hasn’t gotten better. But you aren’t watching the games, or you’ve got some serious confirmation bias going on, if you think Smart just hasn’t improved whatsoever.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: mctyson on January 08, 2018, 06:04:36 PM
LOL at this thread. You want some clicks

He got mine!
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: gouki88 on January 08, 2018, 07:21:29 PM
To say that Marcus Smart hasn’t improved—generally, as in no facets of his game have improved—is asinine.

Sure his shooting hasn’t gotten better. But you aren’t watching the games, or you’ve got some serious confirmation bias going on, if you think Smart just hasn’t improved whatsoever.
Yeah, that is crazy. His playmaking and decision-making is at a really good level this season (minus that game where he got 7 TO's or whatever)
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Snakehead on January 08, 2018, 07:49:31 PM
He has improved a lot as a playmaker.  Any talk of him being so awful on offense, ignoring his passing and some other skills, really loses me.

 He had a straight up questionable stretch (even as a huge fan of him I say that) but has been playing well as of late.  Of course, talking him long term depends on price but I am excited to see how he finishes out the year.  I think he can take things forward from recent games.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: kozlodoev on January 10, 2018, 09:45:56 AM
He has improved a lot as a playmaker.  Any talk of him being so awful on offense, ignoring his passing and some other skills, really loses me.
Maybe if he cut down on the boneheaded decisions, he'd prop up his playmaker credentials. As it is, I cringe every time he gets the ball on offense. I mean, the guy takes 38% of his shots within the first 10 seconds of the clock, and has an abysmal 39% eFG on those.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: kozlodoev on January 10, 2018, 10:45:49 AM
Quote
Iguodala is a far better player than Smart

Current Iguodala? I’m curious why you think “far better”.
Current version? Probably isn't. But the fact that a 34-year-old Iguodala is not a huge dropoff from Marcus Smart should tell you something.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Roy H. on January 10, 2018, 10:57:48 AM
Quote
Iguodala is a far better player than Smart

Current Iguodala? I’m curious why you think “far better”.
Current version? Probably isn't. But the fact that a 34-year-old Iguodala is not a huge dropoff from Marcus Smart should tell you something.

Well, it depends what your expectations are.

Iggy pretty much decided to forego scoring in return for elite defense and good playmaking. He basically only shoots when wide open or in transition. In doing so, he’s been extremely valuable to a title team.

With a more offensively gifted team, I’m hoping that Marcus can bring the same thing.  He should never take another shot with a defender within arm’s length again.

I’ve never been a big “his contributions don’t show up in the box score” guy, but after very closely watching Iguodala, that changed. He aids an offense even if he’s not scoring or getting assists. He aids a defense even if he’s not getting steals or blocks.

Marcus has that potential. He takes too many dumb shots, but that’s the major thing holding him back.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: footey on January 10, 2018, 11:51:26 AM

"Marcus has [Iggy] potential. He takes too many dumb shots, but that’s the major thing holding him back."   -RH
[/quote]

QOTD
TP
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: PhoSita on January 10, 2018, 12:45:13 PM
I'm not even really convinced that Marcus taking a lot of shots hurts the team.

The opponent often defends him as if he is a good shooter even though he's obviously not.  See Matt Moore's work on this for supporting evidence.

I think that's a product of the fact that he occasionally gets hot, and the fact that he shoots with confidence as if he were a good shooter.


In the playoffs, if an opponent gameplans for him and actually has their defenders leave him wide open -- like teams sometimes do to Draymond Green in the playoffs -- he will need to either hit his shots (like Draymond), or adjust.

But in the regular season, if his shooting is spacing the floor by drawing defenders, it's not even that big a deal if the shots don't go in very often, as long as he's not looking off open teammates or shooting super early in the shot clock, which I don't see him do that often.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: smokeablount on January 10, 2018, 12:51:11 PM
Quote
Iguodala is a far better player than Smart

Current Iguodala? I’m curious why you think “far better”.
Current version? Probably isn't. But the fact that a 34-year-old Iguodala is not a huge dropoff from Marcus Smart should tell you something.

Yeah, especially because what made Iggy a stud was his quick twitch athleticism. At his age now, he’s lost most of that (but still definitely has some left) so you’d hope this wasn’t even a discussion.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: smokeablount on January 10, 2018, 12:55:36 PM
Quote
Iguodala is a far better player than Smart

Current Iguodala? I’m curious why you think “far better”.
Current version? Probably isn't. But the fact that a 34-year-old Iguodala is not a huge dropoff from Marcus Smart should tell you something.

Well, it depends what your expectations are.

Iggy pretty much decided to forego scoring in return for elite defense and good playmaking. He basically only shoots when wide open or in transition. In doing so, he’s been extremely valuable to a title team.

With a more offensively gifted team, I’m hoping that Marcus can bring the same thing.  He should never take another shot with a defender within arm’s length again.

I’ve never been a big “his contributions don’t show up in the box score” guy, but after very closely watching Iguodala, that changed. He aids an offense even if he’s not scoring or getting assists. He aids a defense even if he’s not getting steals or blocks.

Marcus has that potential. He takes too many dumb shots, but that’s the major thing holding him back.

Smart is so polarizing that the extreme of either opinion of him, whether that of the Smart apologists or views like the OP’s, isn’t painting a fair picture. IMO this post of Roy’s is a really good balance of the truth in each extreme view.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: playdream on January 10, 2018, 12:56:36 PM
Once Smart get his shooting together he will be a legitimate allstar, which Iguodala has never been
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Spilling Green Dye on January 10, 2018, 12:59:06 PM
Quote
Iguodala is a far better player than Smart

Current Iguodala? I’m curious why you think “far better”.
Current version? Probably isn't. But the fact that a 34-year-old Iguodala is not a huge dropoff from Marcus Smart should tell you something.

Well, it depends what your expectations are.

Iggy pretty much decided to forego scoring in return for elite defense and good playmaking. He basically only shoots when wide open or in transition. In doing so, he’s been extremely valuable to a title team.

With a more offensively gifted team, I’m hoping that Marcus can bring the same thing.  He should never take another shot with a defender within arm’s length again.

I’ve never been a big “his contributions don’t show up in the box score” guy, but after very closely watching Iguodala, that changed. He aids an offense even if he’s not scoring or getting assists. He aids a defense even if he’s not getting steals or blocks.

Marcus has that potential. He takes too many dumb shots, but that’s the major thing holding him back.

TP Roy for summing up precisely how I feel about Marcus shooting.  I'd also add that he shouldn't be shooting really early in the shot clock.  There are too many good shooters on this team now to justify his contested shots, but I do think he should remain really aggressive.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: kozlodoev on January 10, 2018, 01:12:01 PM
.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Roy H. on January 10, 2018, 01:46:57 PM
Once Smart get his shooting together he will be a legitimate allstar, which Iguodala has never been

What are your expectations for his shooting?  If he ever got to 45% FG% / 35% 3PT%, I would be thrilled.  Those seem like doable goals, until you look at his splits. He has only shot 45% over the course of a calendar month once in his career.  He’s only shot above 35% 3PT% in four months, and two of them were December / January of his rookie year.

I have a hard time seeing Marcus ever being an efficient all-star level scorer.  I think he’s very far from being considered a top-30 player. I do think he can be a valuable player, however.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: smokeablount on January 10, 2018, 01:50:39 PM
Once IF Smart get his shooting together LIKE CRAZY he will be a legitimate allstar, which Iguodala has never been

What are your expectations for his shooting?  If he ever got to 45% FG% / 35% 3PT%, I would be thrilled.  Those seem like doable goals, until you look at his splits. He has only shot 45% over the course of a calendar month once in his career.  He’s only shot above 35% 3PT% in four months, and two of them were December / January of his rookie year.

I have a hard time seeing Marcus ever being an efficient all-star level scorer.  I think he’s very far from being considered a top-30 player. I do think he can be a valuable player, however.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: kozlodoev on January 10, 2018, 02:23:23 PM
Once Smart get his shooting together he will be a legitimate allstar, which Iguodala has never been

What are your expectations for his shooting?  If he ever got to 45% FG% / 35% 3PT%, I would be thrilled.  Those seem like doable goals, until you look at his splits. He has only shot 45% over the course of a calendar month once in his career.  He’s only shot above 35% 3PT% in four months, and two of them were December / January of his rookie year.

I have a hard time seeing Marcus ever being an efficient all-star level scorer.  I think he’s very far from being considered a top-30 player. I do think he can be a valuable player, however.
The more important part is that he should stop jacking it up with 20 seconds on the shot clock.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: chilidawg on January 10, 2018, 02:56:27 PM
To say that Marcus Smart hasn’t improved—generally, as in no facets of his game have improved—is asinine.

Sure his shooting hasn’t gotten better. But you aren’t watching the games, or you’ve got some serious confirmation bias going on, if you think Smart just hasn’t improved whatsoever.
Yeah, that is crazy. His playmaking and decision-making is at a really good level this season (minus that game where he got 7 TO's or whatever)

His TO% is terrible, 2nd worst on the team after Theis.  It's not just one bad game.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: nickagneta on January 10, 2018, 03:40:05 PM
Once Smart get his shooting together he will be a legitimate allstar, which Iguodala has never been
Except that Iggy was an All-Star in 2012 and was an NBA Finals MVP.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: footey on January 10, 2018, 03:47:19 PM
How on earth did this devolve into a comparison with Iggy? I mean, they are nothing alike. Iggy is much more athletic, even at his advanced age.  And Marcus is more savvy. I think that word captures his best attribute well. 
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: Roy H. on January 10, 2018, 03:55:21 PM
How on earth did this devolve into a comparison with Iggy? I mean, they are nothing alike. Iggy is much more athletic, even at his advanced age.  And Marcus is more savvy. I think that word captures his best attribute well.

Iggy is plenty savvy.

Their roles are — or at least could be — similar.  Iguodala concentrates almost all of his energy on defense, and his primary offensive role is moving the ball.  Both are +/- darlings, and their impact is largely based upon intangibles.

There’s not much of a comparison to Philly Iguodala, but the Iggy that took a bench role with the Dubs? That’s a realistic projection for Smart.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: ballin on February 04, 2018, 05:05:02 PM
Comparing Smart to Iggy just shows how insanely off people are with evaluating Smart.

First of all, Iggy posted moderate-to-good stats for the majority of his career while still being a great intangibles guy. Secondly, he took nowhere near the number of dumb shots and was never a ball-stopper on offense, which is part of the reason why he fit so seamlessly into the Warriors' offense. Lastly, Iggy could do a little bit of everything on offense and most importantly finish at the rim with consistency.

In no way, shape, or form does Marcus do any of the things I just mentioned. Smart is an historic trainwreck on offense, and he'd have to be Kawhi Leonard-levels of good on defense in order to justify putting up with that sort of offensive ineptitude. Unfortunately, he's not. Quite frankly, the team's defense is based on the scheme and getting everyone to buy in and exert effort on that end - it's not being made or broken by one guy. That's why we were able to let Bradley go yet still function at a high level.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that on offense. You can't hide a guy on offense in the modern NBA; if he can't or won't shoot, his presence in the offense just shrinks the court since nobody will defend him at the 3 point line (which is particularly evident in the playoffs when teams have more time to implement schemes like that). And that's the very best outcome... the more realistic and historical outcome is that Smart will just jack up tons of bad shots and stop the ball from moving, completely killing any semblance of a functioning offense.

Finally, if you think the way Smart has been playing is bad, just wait until you see how terrible he'll be once he's gotten his contract. I guarantee you it will make Evan Turner's contract look like a steal by comparison.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: GreenEnvy on February 04, 2018, 05:41:41 PM
Comparing Smart to Iggy just shows how insanely off people are with evaluating Smart.

First of all, Iggy posted moderate-to-good stats for the majority of his career while still being a great intangibles guy. Secondly, he took nowhere near the number of dumb shots and was never a ball-stopper on offense, which is part of the reason why he fit so seamlessly into the Warriors' offense. Lastly, Iggy could do a little bit of everything on offense and most importantly finish at the rim with consistency.

In no way, shape, or form does Marcus do any of the things I just mentioned. Smart is an historic trainwreck on offense, and he'd have to be Kawhi Leonard-levels of good on defense in order to justify putting up with that sort of offensive ineptitude. Unfortunately, he's not. Quite frankly, the team's defense is based on the scheme and getting everyone to buy in and exert effort on that end - it's not being made or broken by one guy. That's why we were able to let Bradley go yet still function at a high level.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that on offense. You can't hide a guy on offense in the modern NBA; if he can't or won't shoot, his presence in the offense just shrinks the court since nobody will defend him at the 3 point line (which is particularly evident in the playoffs when teams have more time to implement schemes like that). And that's the very best outcome... the more realistic and historical outcome is that Smart will just jack up tons of bad shots and stop the ball from moving, completely killing any semblance of a functioning offense.

Finally, if you think the way Smart has been playing is bad, just wait until you see how terrible he'll be once he's gotten his contract. I guarantee you it will make Evan Turner's contract look like a steal by comparison.

People blamed one person for all our defensive troubles last season.

Even if you don’t consider Smart to be in Kawhi’s level defensively, he’s close. He’s undoubtedly in the top echelon of defensive wing players. His team defense is masterful.

I don’t think defenses leave him wide open all the time like you believe. He’s still a threat to take the shot (and all too often does), and is clearly capable of knocking them down, even if not as often as he should.

I disagree with the notion that he’ll regress when he gets a contract. Nothing about what he’s doing looks like a typical “contract year” season. He still jacks up those 3/4-Court shots at the buzzer. He’s all in on defense and doesn’t dog it. By all accounts (aside from this recent transgression), he’s a good kid and teammate. I truly believe he’s a hard worker and will continue to after he gets his next contract (and there’s a good chance he takes a short/discount contract to prove himself again).


I’d like to keep Smart, but I understand the future is cloudy with our back court and if DA doesn’t think he’s going to resign him, I get trading him. If we are going all in this season with Monroe (and hopefully a scoring wing), a guy like Smart off the bench is integral in the playoffs to get key stops when the game slows.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: ChillyWilly on February 04, 2018, 07:01:25 PM
Comparing Smart to Iggy just shows how insanely off people are with evaluating Smart.

First of all, Iggy posted moderate-to-good stats for the majority of his career while still being a great intangibles guy. Secondly, he took nowhere near the number of dumb shots and was never a ball-stopper on offense, which is part of the reason why he fit so seamlessly into the Warriors' offense. Lastly, Iggy could do a little bit of everything on offense and most importantly finish at the rim with consistency.

In no way, shape, or form does Marcus do any of the things I just mentioned. Smart is an historic trainwreck on offense, and he'd have to be Kawhi Leonard-levels of good on defense in order to justify putting up with that sort of offensive ineptitude. Unfortunately, he's not. Quite frankly, the team's defense is based on the scheme and getting everyone to buy in and exert effort on that end - it's not being made or broken by one guy. That's why we were able to let Bradley go yet still function at a high level.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that on offense. You can't hide a guy on offense in the modern NBA; if he can't or won't shoot, his presence in the offense just shrinks the court since nobody will defend him at the 3 point line (which is particularly evident in the playoffs when teams have more time to implement schemes like that). And that's the very best outcome... the more realistic and historical outcome is that Smart will just jack up tons of bad shots and stop the ball from moving, completely killing any semblance of a functioning offense.

Finally, if you think the way Smart has been playing is bad, just wait until you see how terrible he'll be once he's gotten his contract. I guarantee you it will make Evan Turner's contract look like a steal by comparison.

People blamed one person for all our defensive troubles last season.

Even if you don’t consider Smart to be in Kawhi’s level defensively, he’s close. He’s undoubtedly in the top echelon of defensive wing players. His team defense is masterful.

I don’t think defenses leave him wide open all the time like you believe. He’s still a threat to take the shot (and all too often does), and is clearly capable of knocking them down, even if not as often as he should.

I disagree with the notion that he’ll regress when he gets a contract. Nothing about what he’s doing looks like a typical “contract year” season. He still jacks up those 3/4-Court shots at the buzzer. He’s all in on defense and doesn’t dog it. By all accounts (aside from this recent transgression), he’s a good kid and teammate. I truly believe he’s a hard worker and will continue to after he gets his next contract (and there’s a good chance he takes a short/discount contract to prove himself again).


I’d like to keep Smart, but I understand the future is cloudy with our back court and if DA doesn’t think he’s going to resign him, I get trading him. If we are going all in this season with Monroe (and hopefully a scoring wing), a guy like Smart off the bench is integral in the playoffs to get key stops when the game slows.

We must rate defense differently. Smart isn't even close to the type of defensive player for obvious athletic reasons.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: ChillyWilly on February 04, 2018, 07:03:36 PM
Comparing Smart to Iggy just shows how insanely off people are with evaluating Smart.

First of all, Iggy posted moderate-to-good stats for the majority of his career while still being a great intangibles guy. Secondly, he took nowhere near the number of dumb shots and was never a ball-stopper on offense, which is part of the reason why he fit so seamlessly into the Warriors' offense. Lastly, Iggy could do a little bit of everything on offense and most importantly finish at the rim with consistency.

In no way, shape, or form does Marcus do any of the things I just mentioned. Smart is an historic trainwreck on offense, and he'd have to be Kawhi Leonard-levels of good on defense in order to justify putting up with that sort of offensive ineptitude. Unfortunately, he's not. Quite frankly, the team's defense is based on the scheme and getting everyone to buy in and exert effort on that end - it's not being made or broken by one guy. That's why we were able to let Bradley go yet still function at a high level.

Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that on offense. You can't hide a guy on offense in the modern NBA; if he can't or won't shoot, his presence in the offense just shrinks the court since nobody will defend him at the 3 point line (which is particularly evident in the playoffs when teams have more time to implement schemes like that). And that's the very best outcome... the more realistic and historical outcome is that Smart will just jack up tons of bad shots and stop the ball from moving, completely killing any semblance of a functioning offense.

Finally, if you think the way Smart has been playing is bad, just wait until you see how terrible he'll be once he's gotten his contract. I guarantee you it will make Evan Turner's contract look like a steal by comparison.

Wait are there more of us out there?! I thought I was stranded on this island alone  ;D
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: bellerephon on February 04, 2018, 10:18:59 PM
Marcus is overall a good player. Yes he is a terrible shooter, and that limits his value, but his defense is excellent. He also makes lots of hustle plays that make a difference. Moreover, he does have some positive attributes on offense. He runs the pick and roll well, and the team often has a positive offense rating when he's on the floor.
Title: Re: Smart has been given his tryout, and he failed.
Post by: vjcsmoke on February 04, 2018, 11:07:36 PM
If we get a decent 1st round pick offer, Smart will be traded.  If not we will try to retain him for the RFA tender.  If someone bids big money for Smart he will be gone as we won't go into luxury tax for a very good defensive player but nonetheless a rotation player with bad offense.