CelticsStrong

Other Discussions => Fantasy Sports and Games => Off Topic => CelticsStrong Draft => Topic started by: nickagneta on September 11, 2013, 11:31:04 PM

Title: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: nickagneta on September 11, 2013, 11:31:04 PM
(http://officialpsds.com/images/thumbs/NBA-Finals-Logo--Real-Trophy-psd60020.png)

MINNESOTA TIMBERWOLVES vs CLEVELAND CAVALIERS

Minnesota
Guards: Monta Ellis, Avery Bradley, C.J. Miles, Kyle Korver, Mario Chalmers, Jordan Farmar
Forwards: Lebron James, Serge Ibaka, Shane Battier, Glen Davis, Jae Crowder
Centers: DeAndre Jordan, Greg Stiemsma
Coach: Nate McMillen
 

Cleveland
Guards: Ty Lawson, Tony Allen, Jamal Crawford, Steve Blake, Terrence Ross
Forwards: Al Horford, Carl Landry, Gerald Wallace, Caron Butler, Lamar Odom
Centers: Kevin Garnett, Timofey Mozgov, Bernard James
Lionel Hollins

IMPORTANT VOTING STATEMENT

This round is open for two days of discussions and voting.

Polls open at 12 noon EST Sept. 12th. Close 11:59:59PM  Sept. 13th. PM all votes to me and just provide me your 2013 CB Draft winning team.

Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: nickagneta on September 12, 2013, 12:14:36 AM
(http://www.powertexgroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Minnesota_Timberwolves.jpg)

President/GM: McHale's Pits
Coach: Nate McMillan
(http://lakernation.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/nate-large.jpg)

Roster:
 # - NAME - POS - HT & WT

0 - Avery Bradley - G - 6'2" 185
2 - Jordan Farmar - G - 6'2" 185
6 - LeBron James - F - 6'8" 260
9 - Serge Ibaka - F/C - 6'10" 225
11 - Monta Ellis - G - 6'3" 175
12 - DeAndre Jordan - C - 6'11" 250
15 - Mario Chalmers - G - 6'1" 190
26 - Kyle Korver - G/F - 6'7" 215
31 - Shane Battier - G/F - 6'8" 225
32 - Jae Crowder - F - 6'7" 235
33 - C.J. Miles - G/F - 6'6" 215
34 - Glen Davis - F/C - 6'9" 285
54 - Greg Stiemsma - C - 6'11" 260

Statistics:
PPG / RPG / APG / SPG / BPG (FG% / 3P% / FT%)
PER36 STATS
ADDITIONAL

Avery Bradley (28.7 MPG)
9.2 PPG/2.2 RPG/2.1 APG/1.3 SPG/0.4 BPG (40.2/31.7/75.5)
PER36: 11.6 PPG - 2.8 RPG - 2.6 APG - 1.6 SPG - 0.5 BPG
ADDITIONAL: SHOT 49.8/40.7/79.5 IN 2011-12 (20.3/23.0 vs 14.7/13.7)

Jordan Farmar (21.3 MPG)
10.4 PPG/1.6 RPG/3.3 APG/0.6 SPG/0.1 BPG (46.7/44.0/90.5)
PER36: 17.6 PPG - 2.6 RPG - 5.6 APG - 1.0 SPG - 0.1 BPG
ADDITIONAL: N/A

LeBron James (37.9 MPG)
26.8 PPG/8.0 RPG/7.3 APG/1.7 SPG/0.9 BPG (56.5/40.6/75.3)
PER36: 25.5 PPG - 7.6 RPG - 6.9 APG - 1.6 SPG - 0.8 BPG
ADDITIONAL: PER of 29.0 & 36.7 from SF/PF, Held opposing SFs to PER of 12.7

Serge Ibaka (31.1 MPG)
13.2 PPG/7.7 RPG/0.5 APG/0.4 SPG/3.0 BPG (57.3/35.1/74.9)
PER36: 15.3 PPG - 8.9 RPG - 0.6 APG - 0.4 SPG - 3.5 BPG
ADDITIONAL: Outproduced opposing PF/C from PER standpoint in 2012-13 (

Monta Ellis (37.5 MPG)
19.2 PPG/3.9 RPG/6.0 APG/2.1 SPG/0.4 BPG (41.6/28.7/77.3)
PER36: 18.5 PPG - 3.7 RPG - 5.8 APG - 2.0 SPG - 0.4 BPG
ADDITIONAL: CAREER 45.6 FG%, PER of 21.1 as PG, Held opposing PG/SG to PERs of 12.3/13.8

DeAndre Jordan (24.5 MPG)
8.8 PPG/7.2 RPG/0.3 APG/0.6 SPG/1.4 BPG (64.3/0.0/38.6)
PER36: 13.0 PPG - 10.6 RPG - 0.5 APG - 0.9 SPG - 2.0 BPG
ADDITIONAL: SHOT 52.5 FT% IN 2011-12

Mario Chalmers (26.9 MPG)
8.6 PPG/2.2 RPG/3.5 APG/1.5 SPG/0.2 BPG (42.9/40.9/79.5)
PER36: 11.6 PPG - 3.0 RPG - 4.8 APG - 2.1 SPG - 0.2 BPG
ADDITIONAL: N/A

Kyle Korver (30.5 MPG)
10.9 PPG/4.0 RPG/2.0 APG/0.9 SPG/0.5 BPG (46.1/45.7/85.9)
PER36: 12.9 PPG - 4.7 RPG - 2.3 APG - 1.1 SPG - 0.6 BPG
ADDITIONAL: Outproduced both SG and SF from PER standpoint in 2012-13 (14.4/14.5 to 11.4/11.7)

Shane Battier
6.6 PPG/2.3 RPG/1.0 APG/0.6 SPG/0.8 BPG (42.0/43.0/84.2)
PER36: 9.5 PPG - 3.3 RPG - 1.5 APG - 0.8 SPG - 1.1 BPG
ADDITIONAL: Held opposing SFs to PER of 10.2

Jae Crowder (17.3 MPG)
5.0 PPG/2.4 RPG/1.2 APG/0.8 SPG/0.2 BPG (38.4/32.8/64.4)
PER36: 10.4 PPG - 5.0 RPG - 2.5 APG - 1.7 SPG - 0.5 BPG
ADDITIONAL: Held Opposing SFs to 12.5 PER

C.J. Miles (21.0 MPG)
11.2 PPG/2.7 RPG/1.0 APG/0.8 SPG/0.3 BPG (41.5/38.4/86.9)
PER36: 19.2 PPG - 4.6 RPG - 1.7 APG - 1.3 SPG - 0.4 BPG
ADDITIONAL: N/A

Glen Davis (31.3 MPG)
15.1 PPG/7.2 RPG/2.1 APG/0.9 SPG/0.6 BPG (44.8/0.0/71.8 )
PER36: 17.3 PPG - 8.3 RPG - 2.4 APG - 1.1 SPG - 0.7 BPG
ADDITIONAL: N/A

Greg Stiemsma (15.9 MPG)
4.0 PPG/3.4 RPG/0.4 APG/0.6 SPG/1.2 BPG (45.7/0.0/76.8)
PER36: 9.1 PPG - 7.8 RPG - 0.9 APG - 1.3 SPG - 2.7 BPG
ADDITIONAL: N/A

Pictures:

(http://blogs.browardpalmbeach.com/pulp/LeBron%20dunk.jpg)

(http://www.behindthebasket.com/storage/post-images/SIbaka%20PPierce.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1296810669335)

(http://images.sportsworldreport.com/data/images/full/8023/los-angeles-clippers-and-deandre-jordan.jpg)

(http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Monta+Ellis+Portland+Trail+Blazers+v+Golden+Ali4E8mc3sbl.jpg)

(http://chasing23.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/shanebattierhandinkobeface.jpg)

(http://patbradley.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/avery-harden.jpg)

(http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/003/145/646/hi-res-7252408_display_image.jpg?1367463077)

(http://blogimages.thescore.com/tbj/files/2011/01/glen-davis-dwight-howard.jpg)

(http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/481/101/106160680_display_image.jpg?1288711732)

(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRFA2zn-efBEIOoHj33Pcns8zuz86pcHndVJeL0xuS21O-CJcIM6A)

(http://www.deseretnews.com/images/article/midres/322697/322697.jpg)

(http://www.nba-draft.com/images/JaeCrowder.jpg)

(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT1w_q48z0DW9sRL5OJ3qxNmczNbhWPU8-uLK9dU8MvYy4hhNIi)

Drafting Philosophy:

After the announcement that the Minnesota Timberwolves had won the 2013 CB Draft Lottery, the front office quickly decided that LeBron James would be the first overall selection to lead our franchise. Any team that features LeBron is instantly a contender, but to win a championship he must be surrounded by the right pieces.

The organizational philosophy here in Minnesota is defense first. Every player that we drafted is capable of playing anywhere from above average defense to elite defense. In addition to defensive skill, we also targeted players who could provide specific skill sets to the team. Those skills ranged from spot-up shooting, slashing, finishing around the rim, ball-handling and facilitating. This is a team designed to provide stifling defense that will lead to easy baskets in transition after turnovers or missed shots.

In half-court offensive sets, we have many options to spread the floor to allow LeBron, Monta, or Farmar to drive and dish. We also feature versatile off-the-pick options. Jordan is an elite pick & lob finisher and both Ibaka and Davis are quality pick & pop or pick & roll players. LeBron is unquestionably the alpha-dog on this team which will allow Monta plenty of room to pick up easy points slashing to the rim to assist in the scoring load. In addition, this team features a slew of three point shooters around the perimeter in Korver, Battier, Chalmers, Miles, Bradley, and Farmar.

Toughest Decision:

My selection of DeAndre Jordan at 4.1 was highly scrutinized and was my most difficult draft selection. I felt that quality big-men were flying off the board quickly and despite his flaws - he was a good fit for the team. My other contemplated selection at 4.1 was Monta Ellis who I managed to acquire at the beginning of the 5th round despite passing him at 4.1.

Best Move / Worst Move:

There were three selections that I was particularly happy with...

1) LeBron James - Lucky that I won the lottery, but his presence assures me of contending
2) Serge Ibaka - Young, athletic, and an elite rim protector with a great mid-range jumper is a great complement to James
3) Jordan Farmar - Quality facilitator, shooter, and shot creator that was acquired with the last selection of the draft. Not many 13th rounders are cracking rotations so I was happy to secure him when I did.

There was one move made that caused me to second-guess myself - the trade of Taj Gibson and a draft pick for Kyle Korver and Mario Chalmers.

I felt it was a good trade because it allowed me to play LeBron at the power forward position more often while acquiring two elite three point shooters in the process. However, I was happy with the Gibson selection because of his great pick & roll defending, but I felt the acquisition of Korver and Chalmers along with James' minutes at the 4 outweighed his departure.

Your Outlook For This Season:

2013 CB Draft Champions

I sincerely hope that people don't overlook my team defense. I know it isn't a flashy fantasy team style, but tough defensive teams always contend regardless of the sport. Pair that with the best player on the planet, three point shooters, and a deep bench and I expect to contend for the CB Draft Championship.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: nickagneta on September 12, 2013, 12:14:51 AM
(http://blog.cleveland.com/andone/2008/10/00s-cavs-logo.gif)

2013 CB Draft Cleveland Cavaliers
a.k.a. the Cleveland Bar-Fighters (http://youtu.be/q1WKWVVikdg)
GM: AB_Celtic | co-GM: airbelinelli | HC: Lionel Hollins
Team Motto: No superstar, no problem.



DEPTH CHART

PG: Ty Lawson / Steve Blake
SG: Tony Allen / Jamal Crawford
SF: Caron Butler / Gerald Wallace
PF: Al Horford / Carl Landry
C: Kevin Garnett / Timofey Mozgov

Young fellers: Terrence Ross (SG/SF), Bernard James (C)
Inactive: Lamar Odom (PF/SF)



STARTERS AND OTHER KEY PLAYERS

(http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nba/players/full/3213.png&w=350&h=254)
Al Horford - #15 PF/C (starter)
27 years old | 6'10", 250 lbs | Florida
Nickname: Da Boss
Quote: "The most versatile true big man in the league." - Roy H.
Role: Whatever we ask him to do (incl. rebounding, scoring, and defending)
Key stats: 17.4 ppg, 10.2 rpg, 3.2 apg, 8.9 total win shares
Cavsong: "How You Like Me Now" by The Heavy

Al Horford is one of the most versatile players in the entire NBA. The two-time All Star can operate down low and he can hit a 20 foot jumper. He can rebound and he can pass. He can run the floor and he can work off screens in the half-court. He is strong enough and quick enough to defend any PF or C in the league, and he does it well. There isn't a weakness to be found in his game. Some on the forum were surprised we chose him ahead of other defensive Cs, but there's the magic of it: Al won't be playing C.
Al's natural position in this league is PF. Why, then, has he started at C for the Hawks nearly every game during his six-year career? Because of a guy named Josh Smith, a tweener forward who really can't shoot well enough to be considered a SF. So while Smith flails around and takes ill-advised midrange jumpers (don't worry DKCers, Thibs will take care of that behavior), Al has to be prudent and do the dirty work for his team. Because of this, and because he plays in Atlanta, Horford often gets much less attention than his frontcourtmate. But that doesn't mean he isn't a brilliant player. (http://hoopchalk.com/2013/03/25/the-quiet-all-around-brilliance-of-al-horford/)
Last season, returning from an injury-riddled 2011 campaign, Al didn't miss a beat. In 37 minutes per game and 74 games, Al averaged 17.4 pts on .543 shooting, 10.2 trb, 3.2 ast, 1.1 stl, and 1.1 blk. As you can see, he scored comfortably (http://vorped.com/bball/index.php/player/shotchart/1085-Al-Horford/season/2012-2013-REG) from anywhere inside the 3pt line. This versatility of scoring options means that teams can't leave Al alone no matter where he is on the court. This is a huge asset on the offensive end, as it means that Al's teammates will be that much more open to take their own shots.
On the other side of the court, Al is elite as well. His 7'1" wingspan is disruptive to say the least, and he is extremely quick for his size. Additionally, Al is an extremely intelligent player, and knows where to position himself for a rebound, a block, etc.
(http://blogs.ajc.com/jeff-schultz-blog/files/2010/04/al2.JPG)
Dat reach, tho.
In summation, Al's the whole package at PF. If only he could play alongside a defensive-minded, jump-shooting center that would allow him to play to his own strengths. Oh, wait...





(http://www.instablogsimages.com/2013/06/i_ofss3.png)
Kevin Garnett - #5 C/PF (starter)
37 years old | 6'11", 253 lbs | Farragut H.S.
Nickname: The Big Ticket
Quote: "Anything is possible." - Kevin Garnett
Role: Heart and soul of the team, rebounding, scoring, defending
Key stats: 14.8 ppg, 7.8 rpg, 2.3 apg, 3.8 defensive win shares
Cavsong: "Who Gon Stop Me" by Jay Z and Kanye West

Make no mistakes, while Al was our first-round pick and arguably the best player on the team, the heart and soul of the CB Draft Cavs is Kevin Garnett. Throughout his 18-year NBA career, Kevin has been the most intense player in the league (http://youtu.be/INZ3hJjW0w4). He's a 15-time All-Star, with 12-time all-defensive selection, a 9-time all-NBA selection, a league MVP, and a Defensive Player of the Year award. He's gotten inside other players' heads, made his own teammates cry, and led a team to a championship. There are few players in the league with the desire (http://youtu.be/SpAv_ao7rBs?t=9m21s) and know-how to win like Kevin. And if his record doesn't scare you, then this should:
(http://sportsavante.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/garnett_360_040516.jpg?w=267&h=218)
Yikes.
Jokes aside, there are those around the league who are concerned about Kevin's durability as he continues to climb in age. There are question marks about whether he's still effective offensively, as his body can't take the abuse that comes with operating down low in the NBA. I'll tell you this much, though: Kevin's midrange jumper is still as good as ever. Like, freaky good. (http://vorped.com/bball/index.php/player/shotchart/826-Kevin-Garnett/season/2012-2013-REG) This combined with Al's ability to work near the basket means that Kevin will by no means be a liability on offense, and will be able to work his magic on defense.
But while Kevin's true strength his his defense, you can never discount his ability to come up big in the clutch. Search "Kevin Garnett game winner" on YouTube and you'll see there are too many videos for me to post. But I will post my favorite clutch play by Kevin (http://youtu.be/jeev8dZ0lg0) during his Celtics tenure. Who's got goosebumps after watching that? I get them every time. Kevin will come up big when it matters most, and that can vault a team to contention more than any statistic.
On the subject of statistics and clutchness, though, I'd like to quickly mention last year's playoffs. In the six games the Rondo-less Celtics played, Kevin played 35 minutes and averaged 12.7 pts on .500 shooting, a league-leading 13.7 trb, 3.5 ast, 0.8 stl and 1.0 blk. This was after playing only 30 minutes per game during the regular season and missing 14 games. So while Kevin might not be around for the entire regular season, you can expect him to be coming full force during the playoffs. He'll be there shouting nonsense at Melo, sacrificing his body for the team (http://youtu.be/fT8QdeEOJWs), and making his teammates better with his passion and intelligence.
(http://sportschump.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Garnett-freak.jpg)
In case you can't tell, I love KG.





(http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nba/players/full/4000.png&w=350&h=254)
Ty Lawson - #3 PG (starter)
25 years old | 5'11", 195 lbs | North Carolina
Nickname: Lawsome
Quote: Height is a blessing, but speed kills.
Role: Volume scorer, facilitator, clutch shot taker
Key stats: 16.7 ppg, 6.9 apg, .366 3PT
Cavsong: "Little Weapon" by Lupe Fiasco

Ty Lawson is a criminally underrated point guard by a great number of fans around the league. Last season, he led the third-seed Nuggets in scoring to the tune of 16.7 pts on .461 shooting (.366 3pt and .549 TS%). He is one of the fastest players in the league, and can finish at the rim or dish it out with ease and finesse (6.9 ast last season). He came up huge in the playoffs, upping his numbers to 19.5 pts, 7.3 ast, 1.5 stl, and even 3.1 trb. Heck, he put up 35 and 10 (http://youtu.be/fkO9iMahAvc) in one game against the Warriors. So why is Ty so underrated?
Is it his height? Being under 6 feet in the NBA isn't ideal...
(http://sitracking.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/ty-lawson-getty-t.jpg)
He's adorable. I'd hug him if he weren't holding two pickaxes.
...but why should that make him fall to nearly a full round after other extremely similar PGs? (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=holidjr01&y1=2013&p2=conlemi01&y2=2013&p3=lillada01&y3=2013&p4=lawsoty01&y4=2013) If you pay attention to that link, you'll notice that Ty scored the second most points per 36 on the best FG%, averaged the second most assists, and had the second most win shares, but he's still considered a tier below the other three.
I've concluded it must be because Ty hasn't gotten much exposure as a member of the Nuggets before this last season. This dude is good. Really good. And clutch. Really clutch. (http://youtu.be/PSrrkvDP4Bs) (Tell me a part of you giggled when he did the bernie after making that shot). Ty Lawson is an elite PG in this league; top 10 by many people's rankings. He will operate beautifully with Kevin and Al, and that trio will lead the Cavs to victory on more than one night.





(http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nba/players/full/2367.png&w=350&h=254)
Tony Allen - #9 SG (starter)
31 years old | 6'4", 213 lbs | Oklahoma State
Nickname: Grindfather
Quote: The best offense is a good defense.
Role: Defensive specialist, tough guy, cutter
Key stats: 4.1 defensive win shares, 1.5 STL
Cavsong:

Tony Allen is a defensive monster. He has shut down Kobe Bryant, Russell Westbrook, Kevin Durant (http://youtu.be/AbOwqN4ajl8), and even contained LeBron James (as best as anyone can). He's been called the best wing defender in the league outside LeBron by a good number of people (one particularly good article here). (http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/41439632)
Tony's a 3-time all-defensive selection. He has 19.2 total defensive win shares throughout his career (4.1 DWS last season alone) while never playing over 27 minutes per game. He's a strong rebounder for his position and a very intelligent player, in addition to his toughness. Along with Marc Gasol, he set the tone for an elite Memphis defense night in and night out last season. There isn't much else to say about Tony besides his defense, but that's the nature of defense (http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2013/5/27/4369554/tony-allen-grizzlies-defense-offense-scoring) in this league, and not Tony.
Along with KG and Horford, Tony will help make the CB Cavs the best defensive team in the league.
(http://media.commercialappeal.com/media/img/photos/2010/12/14/15griz1_t607.jpeg)
Koooooooooooooobe.





(http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nba/players/full/165.png&w=350&h=254)
Jamal Crawford - #11 SG
33 years old | 6'6", 200 lbs | Michigan
Nickname: J.Crossover
Quote: “The real sixth man of the year.” - BigAlTheFuture
Role: Volume scorer off the bench, three point shooter, clutch shot taker
Key stats: 16.5 ppg, .376 3PT, .871 FT%
Cavsong:

After a largely disappointing campaign with the Blazers in 2011, Jamal regained the effectiveness of his younger days by becoming the sixth man for the Clippers. His shot creation, 3pt shooting (.376), and efficiency (.558 TS%) were all excellent with the Clips as he settled into his role as the primary scorer in the second unit. Jamal was on the court for many end-of-game situations, replacing 3-and-D guy and starter Willie Green. Many teams have adopted the philosophy of starting a defending wing and bringing the scorer (and better player) off the bench. The Clippers did it and the Thunder have done it. Well, now the Cavs will do it. Along with Tony, Jamal completes the playoff SG rotation, forming a strong defense-offense duo that can be subbed out given the situation.
For a team with many defensive studs, it seemed only right to add a guy whose true forte is offense. Jamal is gonna make your guy look like a fool (http://youtu.be/UILWenokHpg) this season, so be prepared.
(http://www.allthingsdeluxe.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/IFWT-Ray-Allen-Jamal-Crawfor-1.png)
Oh, no, Ray!





(http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nba/players/full/3217.png&w=350&h=254)
Carl Landry - #7 PF
29 years old | 6'9", 248 lbs | Purdue
Nickname: And 1
Quote: none
Role: Rebounding, scoring, replacement starter for KG
Key stats: 10.8 ppg, 6.0 rpg, .605 TS%
Cavsong: "Stronger" by Kanye West

Carl Landry is just a beautiful scorer. Dude had a .605 TS% last season, and could put it in the net from anywhere on the floor (http://vorped.com/bball/index.php/player/shotchart/908-Carl-Landry/season/2012-2013-REG). Add in some strong defense and rebounding and you have yourself the perfect backup PF and third big man after Al and Kevin. Like Ty, Carl came up huge in last years playoffs, averaging 11.8 pts on .520 shooting and 5.2 trb in just 20 minutes. With the Cavs, Carl will certainly see more than 20 minutes per game, averaging somewhere around 30 in the regular season and post-season. His efficiency isn't expected to decline with this change (http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/id/3217/carl-landry), as he's been highly effective in around 10 minutes (Feb 20) and upwards of 30 minutes (Feb 24). In fact, with an increase in minutes per game, we expect Carl to put up bigger numbers than last season; 13 pts and 8 trb is the prediction.
(http://www.csnbayarea.com/sites/csnbayarea/files/landry_carl_warriors_white_screaming.jpg)
"Carl smash!!"





(http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nba/players/full/1026.png&w=350&h=254)
Gerald Wallace - #45 SF/PF
31 years old | 6'7", 220 lbs | Alabama
Nickname: Crash
Quote: none
Role: Skilled SF and speedy PF defender, tough guy
Key stats: 2.5 defensive win shares, 1.4 STL
Cavsong: "Testify" by Rage Against the Machine

Gerald is tough. Like, really tough. He's not much to write home about on the offensive end anymore, but he can still defend the best 3s and 4s of the league. Like Tony and Kevin, he'll put his body in harm's way for the sake of the team - whether it's the smart play or not (http://youtu.be/lxd9mvSIXwI). He'll function primarily as an energy guy and enforcer off the bench, but will start in select match ups against stronger SFs and quicker PFs. Also worth mentioning is his significant improvement offensively during last year's playoffs, where he averaged 12 pts on .463 shooting (.379 3PT), 4.0 trb, and 2.4 ast in 35 minutes. Gerald may or may not be cooked, but if he can continue that type of production into this year's regular season, he'll likely earn the starting SF job from Caron.
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/files/2012/11/netsknicks1.jpg)
Melo: I'm scared. If I just look away, maybe he won't hurt me.





(http://a.espncdn.com/combiner/i?img=/i/headshots/nba/players/full/1705.png&w=350&h=254)
Caron Butler - #6 SF (starter)
33 years old | 6'7", 228 lbs | Connecticut
Nickname: Tough Juice
Quote: none
Role: Three-point shooter, tough guy, glue guy
Key stats: .388 3PT
Cavsong:

Caron was brought in for his excellent 3pt shooting (especially from the corners), which he will bring to the starting lineup. Along with Ty (and Al and Kevin) he will spread the floor for the big guys to operate and for Ty and Tony to slash. He is the 4th offensive option of the starters, and he knows and is used to this from his time with the Clippers. However, that doesn't mean he can't go off (http://youtu.be/ZDCBfcgCaLA) at any given time, even in this late stage of his career. Caron's shooting will be invaluable in certain situations, and he's no slouch on the defensive end either, earning the nickname Tough Juice for his tough style of play.
(http://dalje.com/slike/slike_3/r1/g2012/m01/ox281286582217138663.jpg)
Scola ain't gonna even try.



BENCH PLAYERS

Steve Blake - #2 PG | 33 years old | 6'3", 172 lbs | Maryland
Blurb: Steve will be the primary backup ball-handler during the regular season, and will supply some much-needed 3pt shooting in certain situations.

Timofey Mozgov - #25 C | 27 years old | 7'1", 250 lbs | Russia
Blurb: Timofey will be used as a backup C to Kevin and Al, with his minutes increased on nights that Kevin rests. His size and rebounding will be assets to the team.

Terrence Ross - #31 SG/SF | 22 years old | 6'6", 195 lbs | Washington
Blurb: Terrence will be an energy guy in certain situations, but will only see major minutes in the case of an injury or in garbage minutes.

Bernard James - #4 C | 28 years old | 6'10", 240 lbs | Florida State
Blurb: Bernie has the opportunity to surpass Timofey on the depth chart. As a 27-year-old rookie last season, he was a shot-blocking presence in his limited minutes with the Mavs.

Lamar Odom - #8 PF/SF | 33 years old | 6'10", 230 lbs | Rhode Island
Blurb: Lamar will likely not see the court with the Cavs due to his troubles during the offseason. Cavs management wishes him the best of luck with his personal endeavors.



2012-2013 COMPLETE PLAYER STATISTICS

(http://i.imgur.com/mKthPL2.png)

Link to statistics for picks 1 thru 6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=horfoal01&y1=2013&p2=garneke01&y2=2013&p3=lawsoty01&y3=2013&p4=allento01&y4=2013&p5=crawfja01&y5=2013&p6=landrca01&y6=2013) - Horford, Garnett, Lawson, Allen, Crawford, Landry
Link to statistics for picks 7 thru 12 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=wallage01&y1=2013&p2=butleca01&y2=2013&p3=blakest01&y3=2013&p4=mozgoti01&y4=2013&p5=rosste01&y5=2013&p6=jamesbe01&y6=2013) - Wallace, Butler, Blake, Mozgov, Ross, James



ROTATIONS AND SITUATIONALS

Regular season rotation (approximate) ...
PG: Ty Lawson (33) / Steve Blake (15)
SG: Tony Allen (20) / Jamal Crawford (28)
SF: Caron Butler (25) / Gerald Wallace (15) / [Allen (8.)]
PF: Al Horford (18) / Carl Landry (25) / [Wallace (5)]
C: Kevin Garnett (28) / [Horford (15)] / Timofey Mozgov (5)
Notes: Gerald Wallace will start in place of Caron Butler (or at PF alongside Al Horford at C) to guard elite SFs and more mobile PFs (LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, Josh Smith, etc.). Injury and garbage minutes will be given to Terrence Ross and Bernard James.

Back-to-back rotation (approximate) ...
PG: Ty Lawson (33) / Steve Blake (15)
SG: Tony Allen (20) / Jamal Crawford (28)
SF: Caron Butler (30) / Gerald Wallace (10) / [Allen (8.)]
PF: Carl Landry (33) / [Wallace (15)]
C: Al Horford (36) / Timofey Mozgov (12) /// Kevin Garnett (0)

PLAYOFF ROTATION (approximate) ...
PG: Ty Lawson (36) / Steve Blake (12)
SG: Tony Allen (15) / Jamal Crawford (33)
SF: Caron Butler (25) / [Allen (15)] / Gerald Wallace (8.)
PF: Al Horford (20) / Carl Landry (28)
C: Kevin Garnett (33) / [Horford (15)]

Back-to-back: Lawson - Allen - Butler - [Wallace/Landry] - Horford
3PT Shooting: Lawson - Crawford - Butler - Horford - Garnett
Lock-down D: Lawson - Allen - Wallace - Horford - Garnett



FREQUENTLY-ASKED QUESTIONS

Quote
Kevin Garnett isn't getting any younger, and will not only need to further reduce his minutes this upcoming season but likely sit out the second game of back-to-backs. How will you adjust to this?
Say hello to Carl Landry. We not only have confidence in Carl as our third big man, but we believe he is more than capable in taking over the starting PF job when Kevin rests, with Al [Horford] sliding over to the C spot. We will monitor Carl's minutes so that there isn't too much variation from a bench night to a starting night, but he should be looking at roughly 30 minutes on any given night. Gerald [Wallace], Tim [Mozgov], and Bernie [James] will also see increased minutes when Kevin takes a night off, but nothing they can't handle.

Quote
Many considered Jamal Crawford to be the true Sixth Man of the Year last year for the Clippers. How will you ensure that he gets enough minutes to be effective?
Jamal will continue to see a sixth man role with Cleveland, and he will see starters minutes. Tony [Allen] has always played slightly less minutes than the average starter, so that alone would ensure Jamal plays enough, but we also plan on letting Jamal run the offense as somewhat of a PG, and Tony will get a good helping of minutes at the SF spot as well. All of this combines to mean that Jamal will get around 30 minutes a night, same as our other key bench player, Carl.

Quote
Gerald Wallace has seen a severe decline in offensive efficiency these last few years. Are you at all worried about him being a major bench player on your team?
While we agree with the first statement, we aren't worried. Quite the opposite: we see Gerald as a perfect fit on our team. We are confident in the amount of scoring that Ty [Lawson], Al, Kevin, Jamal, Carl, and even Caron [Butler] will give us; we do not expect scoring from Gerald at all. Gerald will be used purely as a defensive stopper against more skilled SFs and quicker PFs in the league, such as LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, and Josh Smith. Gerald will start select games at SF or PF where the matchup makes sense, but even in that role we won't be expecting offense from him. Anything he can give us on that end of the floor is found money.

Quote
It seems you have the pieces to create a formidable defensive lineup with Lawson, Allen, Wallace, Horford, and Garnett. However, the floor spacing here could be quite poor. Do you agree?
In short, no. But I'll go into detail. The obvious source of worry here is Tony on the floor with Gerald as the two wings, and the lack of three point shooting that combo brings. While both are certainly subpar at that aspect of the game, there are several reasons that we are not concerned. First, Kevin and Al (and Carl) are excellent long-range jump shooters for their positions, which will create some floor spacing on its own. Second, Gerald himself saw a significant improvement in three point shooting during the playoffs last season, something he could certainly continue into this season. And third, the lineup you mentioned would soon be rotated out to accommodate Jamal, Caron, Steve [Blake] or even Terrence [Ross], who can all shoot the three ball. The only time you would see that lineup playing significant minutes together is in the case that we absolutely need a stop.

Quote
Can you comment on your coaching selection, or was Lionel Hollins chosen somewhat at random?
Lionel was absolutely not chosen at random. Aside from most recently coaching AB_Celtic’s second-favorite NBA team (the Grizzlies), Lionel is an excellent defensive coach; last year, he helped the Grizz become the best defensive team in the league in terms of opponent points per game (89.3). He was crucial in the development of last year’s Defensive Player of the Year, Marc Gasol. He has a rapport with defensive specialist and new CB Cavalier Tony Allen. He has playoff experience. He is humble, supportive, and has a great basketball mind. He will undoubtedly mesh with the mindset of the CB Draft Cavs.



THE DRAFT PROCESS
Drafting philosophy: build around two elite big men and a dynamic PG and contend for a title
Toughest decision: to forgo picking a starting SF in favor of a sixth man and third big man
Best move: pairing Horford and Garnett
Worst move: drafting Lamar Odom, but he just won’t play



CONCLUSION

Main strengths of the CB Draft Cavs:
1. An imposing and versatile frontcourt (Horford, Garnett, Landry)
2. Three of the game's best defenders (Garnett, Allen, Wallace)
3. Clutch and efficient scorers (Lawson, Crawford, Horford, Landry, Garnett)
4. The Ticket Factor

(http://blogs.sohh.com/sports/KG.jpg)
Kevin Garnett and his CB Cavs expect nothing less than a title.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KCattheStripe on September 12, 2013, 12:40:49 AM
I see Lebron having a big series.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 12, 2013, 12:50:36 AM
I see Lebron having a big series.

Does Minnesota win it, though?
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KCattheStripe on September 12, 2013, 01:45:58 AM
I see Lebron having a big series.

Does Minnesota win it, though?

Leaning yes.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: fitzhickey on September 12, 2013, 02:26:16 AM
had the cavs picked from the start
I'm leaning, just, mind you, towards Cleveland
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 12, 2013, 03:31:13 AM
I'd like to congratulate AB & Air for making to the finals in their 1st go around.  That certainly is an accomplishment (much better than I did).

That said, and as nice of a guy as AB in particular is, I just don't see it.  Too weak in the wings.  I'm baffled they made it this far.  To me, wings are more important than bigs in today's NBA.

Likely leaning Minny in this series, because LeBron is LeBron.  Maybe if the Cavs had a Paul George type ;) they would have a chance.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 12, 2013, 05:49:18 AM
Also, if I'm not mistaken, this is Pits 1st go around at this as well.  That is another job well done.

Although, when you get the top pick (LeBron), it seems you more or less just have to 'not screw it up'.  Still, that is a good amount of pressure, one would assume.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 07:39:53 AM
My initial reaction is to lean toward Cleveland.  I think they've got the personnel and the defensive philosophy to limit Lebron.  If Lebron isn't scoring 35+ per night, I don't think that Minnesota can win this series.

I've made my opinion of Gerald Wallace The Celtic widely known.  Gerald Wallace The Defender, though, is a completely different player.  Since you don't have to worry about his contract in this game, Wallace is a very valuable piece.

I think that Gerald Wallace has the potential to replicate what Shawn Marion did to Lebron in the 2011 Finals.  He only averaged around 13 points per game, but he was arguably the MVP of that series, because he hassled Lebron at every turn.  I can see that here.  In fact, I do see that here.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Who on September 12, 2013, 07:56:48 AM
Starters

  PG: Ty Lawson > Avery Bradley
  SG: Tony Allen < Monta Ellis (with TA defending LeBron)
  SF: Caron Butler < LeBron James (with Caron failing to defend Monta)
  PF: Kevin Garnett = Serge Ibaka
   C: Al Horford > DeAndre Jordan

Bench

   PG: Steve Blake < Mario Chalmers
   SG: Jamal Crawford > Kyle Korver or CJ Miles
   SF: Gerald Wallace < Shane Battier
PF/C: Carl Landry > Glen Davis

Coach

Lionel Hollins = Nate McMillan

Notes

I think this is a series where both teams will can and will go small. Cleveland on the perimeter dropping Caron/G-Wallace for Jamal Crawford to better matchup against that undersized backcourt of Minnesota's. And Minnesota dropping D.Jordan and going small with LeBron at PF on KG or Horford and Battier sliding in at SF.

I don't think Garnett is prolific enough in the low post to beat up LeBron down there regularly enough to scare Minnesota away from that matchup. I think they will live with the 2-4 post ups a game Garnett tries on LeBron in order to take advantage of their much improved offense on the other end. A net positive for Minny.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 08:03:18 AM
Quote
PF: Kevin Garnett = Serge Ibaka

Nah.  KG still trumps Ibaka.  As has been noted previously, Ibaka is a poor man-to-man defender.  He doesn't help a defense in nearly the same way that KG does.

Statistically, KG is better offensively (I'd buy that), he's certainly a better passer, and he's dominated Ibaka head to head.

I definitely don't rate this one as even.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Who on September 12, 2013, 08:11:26 AM
Quote
PF: Kevin Garnett = Serge Ibaka

Nah.  KG still trumps Ibaka.  As has been noted previously, Ibaka is a poor man-to-man defender.  He doesn't help a defense in nearly the same way that KG does.

Statistically, KG is better offensively (I'd buy that), he's certainly a better passer, and he's dominated Ibaka head to head.

I definitely don't rate this one as even.

I think KG's defense has been declining and will drop-off considerably more once he transitions back to PF. So as defenders, I think they are comparable. I would actually give Ibaka the edge at PF (but KG at C).

I give KG an edge on offense due to his passing ability (Ibaka limited passer, KG a great passer). However, as scorers + jump-shooters, I think they are even. And, I don't think KG can score in the post consistently against Ibaka which is KG's only possible shot-creation advantage over a player like Ibaka.

As possession creators, I think Ibaka forces far more turnovers and can rebound outside his area which KG can no longer do (increasingly important when rebounding as a PF vs C when you have to cover more ground to rebounds). Advantage Ibaka.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: fitzhickey on September 12, 2013, 08:12:58 AM
I'll post this spot on analysis of Ibaka again, like I didn't thread. I think it sums up Ibaka
Quote
Serge Ibaka

+ Athletic, long-armed, shot-blocking ace still learning fundamentals.
+ Overrated defender who struggles against floor-spacers. Good rebounder.
+ Very good midrange shooter. No post game and poor offensive instincts.

Analysis
There's a lot more to defense than blocking shots, people. Ibaka finished second in the Defensive Player of the Year voting based on his phenomenal shot-blocking total, but the Finals really underscored how far he has to go to be an elite defender overall. Ibaka's shot-blocking skill is second to none -- his 5.38 blocks per 40 minutes led the league comfortably (see chart) -- but he still struggles mightily against face-up 4s and in the finer elements of help defense.

Overall, then, he was merely decent defensively. The Thunder were better with him on the court but not dramatically so (2.8 points per 100 possessions), while Synergy Stats rated him in the middle of the pack. The Thunder didn't act like he was a vital defensive cog, either, often opting to keep Kendrick Perkins or Nick Collison on the court instead of him.
KG is still superior to Ibaka
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: fitzhickey on September 12, 2013, 08:14:49 AM
Quote
PF: Kevin Garnett = Serge Ibaka

Nah.  KG still trumps Ibaka.  As has been noted previously, Ibaka is a poor man-to-man defender.  He doesn't help a defense in nearly the same way that KG does.

Statistically, KG is better offensively (I'd buy that), he's certainly a better passer, and he's dominated Ibaka head to head.

I definitely don't rate this one as even.

I think KG's defense has been declining and will drop-off considerably more once he transitions back to PF. So as defenders, I think they are comparable. I would actually give Ibaka the edge at PF (but KG at C).

I give KG a small edge on offense due to his passing ability (Ibaka limited passer, KG a great passer). However, as scorers + jump-shooters, I think they are even. And, I don't think KG can score in the post consistently against Ibaka which is KG's only possible shot-creation advantage over a player like Ibaka.

As possession creators, I think Ibaka forces far more turnovers and can rebound outside his area which KG can no longer do (increasingly important when rebounding as a PF vs C when you have to cover more ground to rebounds). Advantage Ibaka.
KG will be playing center
advantage KG
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Who on September 12, 2013, 08:15:42 AM
Quote
PF: Kevin Garnett = Serge Ibaka

Nah.  KG still trumps Ibaka.  As has been noted previously, Ibaka is a poor man-to-man defender.  He doesn't help a defense in nearly the same way that KG does.

Statistically, KG is better offensively (I'd buy that), he's certainly a better passer, and he's dominated Ibaka head to head.

I definitely don't rate this one as even.

I think KG's defense has been declining and will drop-off considerably more once he transitions back to PF. So as defenders, I think they are comparable. I would actually give Ibaka the edge at PF (but KG at C).

I give KG a small edge on offense due to his passing ability (Ibaka limited passer, KG a great passer). However, as scorers + jump-shooters, I think they are even. And, I don't think KG can score in the post consistently against Ibaka which is KG's only possible shot-creation advantage over a player like Ibaka.

As possession creators, I think Ibaka forces far more turnovers and can rebound outside his area which KG can no longer do (increasingly important when rebounding as a PF vs C when you have to cover more ground to rebounds). Advantage Ibaka.
KG will be playing center
advantage KG
With Horford at forward? Guarding Ibaka when Minny is big and guarding Battier at the three point line when Minny go small?

Okay.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: fitzhickey on September 12, 2013, 08:19:09 AM
Quote
PF: Kevin Garnett = Serge Ibaka

Nah.  KG still trumps Ibaka.  As has been noted previously, Ibaka is a poor man-to-man defender.  He doesn't help a defense in nearly the same way that KG does.

Statistically, KG is better offensively (I'd buy that), he's certainly a better passer, and he's dominated Ibaka head to head.

I definitely don't rate this one as even.

I think KG's defense has been declining and will drop-off considerably more once he transitions back to PF. So as defenders, I think they are comparable. I would actually give Ibaka the edge at PF (but KG at C).

I give KG a small edge on offense due to his passing ability (Ibaka limited passer, KG a great passer). However, as scorers + jump-shooters, I think they are even. And, I don't think KG can score in the post consistently against Ibaka which is KG's only possible shot-creation advantage over a player like Ibaka.

As possession creators, I think Ibaka forces far more turnovers and can rebound outside his area which KG can no longer do (increasingly important when rebounding as a PF vs C when you have to cover more ground to rebounds). Advantage Ibaka.
KG will be playing center
advantage KG
With Horford at forward? Guarding Ibaka when Minny is big and guarding Battier at the three point line when Minny go small?

Okay.
I'm just going by the depth chart
I'll let AB defend his team  ;D
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Who on September 12, 2013, 08:24:11 AM
Ibaka's main problem at the center position is that he doesn't have the physical size/toughness to matchup against the bigger bodies he faces at the C position vs PF position. KG lacks bulk (at C) too but he makes up for that with superb positional defense and greater length which Ibaka cannot do (yet?).

But when facing each other, it is a non-issue because Garnett doesn't have the type of profile / skill-set that causes Ibaka issues. Ibaka can cover him as an undersized C just as easily as when they matchup at PF. 
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Who on September 12, 2013, 08:28:07 AM
My initial reaction is to lean toward Cleveland.  I think they've got the personnel and the defensive philosophy to limit Lebron.  If Lebron isn't scoring 35+ per night, I don't think that Minnesota can win this series.

I've made my opinion of Gerald Wallace The Celtic widely known.  Gerald Wallace The Defender, though, is a completely different player.  Since you don't have to worry about his contract in this game, Wallace is a very valuable piece.

I think that Gerald Wallace has the potential to replicate what Shawn Marion did to Lebron in the 2011 Finals.  He only averaged around 13 points per game, but he was arguably the MVP of that series, because he hassled Lebron at every turn.  I can see that here.  In fact, I do see that here.

Yeah, I think this is a much better lineup to use than starting Caron Butler. Sticking Gerald Wallace in there to defend LeBron frees up TA to stay on Monta Ellis who would have been a big matchup problem otherwise. That is a much stronger lineup.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Who on September 12, 2013, 08:37:53 AM
I wonder if the Cavs have enough length at the rim to bother LeBron when he gets into the paint.

KG certainly does. He has fantastic size and length. However, Horford is only 6-9 with an 8-11 standing reach. Carl Landry is only 6-7/6-8 with a 8-6 standing reach. LeBron has had a lot of success against the Hawks in the past and I don't see Landry causing him any issues.

Outside of KG, I don't Cleveland's shot-blockers are going to cause LeBron many problems.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 12, 2013, 09:07:21 AM
I wonder if the Cavs have enough length at the rim to bother LeBron when he gets into the paint.

KG certainly does. He has fantastic size and length. However, Horford is only 6-9 with an 8-11 standing reach. Carl Landry is only 6-7/6-8 with a 8-6 standing reach. LeBron has had a lot of success against the Hawks in the past and I don't see Landry causing him any issues.

Outside of KG, I don't Cleveland's shot-blockers are going to cause LeBron many problems.
Which is a problem for me because KG is going to continue to decline.

Cleveland needs him on the court an awful lot to contain LeBron. I also think that because their best two defenders are Allen/Wallace that they are going to struggle to score. Especially if they use Tony on Ellis when he's not on LeBron as Who suggests.

Edit: Allen and Wallace on the floor at the same time is going to be make it awfully tough to score is what I'm saying.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: dark_lord on September 12, 2013, 09:20:03 AM
I like the cavs team, and f they were a team in real life, I would be a big fan for their style.  BUT, I think minny takes this one. lbj is on another level and he has pieces around him that are an excellent fit.  one other factor....the refs love them some lbj ;)

holding off on my vote and will read the discussion, but as of now, I say minny
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 12, 2013, 09:20:32 AM
I wonder if the Cavs have enough length at the rim to bother LeBron when he gets into the paint.

KG certainly does. He has fantastic size and length. However, Horford is only 6-9 with an 8-11 standing reach. Carl Landry is only 6-7/6-8 with a 8-6 standing reach. LeBron has had a lot of success against the Hawks in the past and I don't see Landry causing him any issues.

Outside of KG, I don't Cleveland's shot-blockers are going to cause LeBron many problems.
Which is a problem for me because KG is going to continue to decline.

Cleveland needs him on the court an awful lot to contain LeBron. I also think that because their best two defenders are Allen/Wallace that they are going to struggle to score. Especially if they use Tony on Ellis when he's not on LeBron as Who suggests.

Defintiely an aspect that needs attention drawn to it.

While I just do not believe Wallace is capable of limiting James at this point in his career, even if he somehow can, how many points can he realistically be counted on to score?

I see Cleveland having a hard time scoring in this series.  Lawson and Crawford are going to be asked to carry a pretty large burden on offense, yet Minny seemingly has pretty good answers on the defensive end to stifle both.  If Allen sees major minutes, this becomes an even greater problem.

This seems like an uphill battle for the Cavs, in my mind.  Horford will probable get his 20 pts, KG his typical 15 or so and Lawson in the high teens.  Even if Crawford can average near 20 pts (unlikely), that still leaves an awful lot of pts to be made up, with not a lot of good offensive options remaining.

Cleveland's best hope seems to be to keep this series low scoring, maybe in the mid 80's.  I'm not sure they can do that consistently over the course of the entire series.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 09:46:15 AM

This seems like an uphill battle for the Cavs, in my mind.  Horford will probable get his 20 pts, KG his typical 15 or so and Lawson in the high teens.  Even if Crawford can average near 20 pts (unlikely), that still leaves an awful lot of pts to be made up, with not a lot of good offensive options remaining.

Cleveland's best hope seems to be to keep this series low scoring, maybe in the mid 80's.  I'm not sure they can do that consistently over the course of the entire series.

If those four players combine for 73 points or so, Minnesota is cooked. Wallace, Tony, Butler and Landry should be able to add another 30 or so, at minimum.

With Cleveland's defense, they will win this series if they score 90+ per night.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on September 12, 2013, 09:51:41 AM
I'm wondering, if Cleveland starts Gerald Wallace to contain LeBron in a way, will it shift the balance of power?

It's seems like Minny is running with this simply because there's no answer for James, even with the loaded defensive front court. But with Wallace pestering him, maybe, just maybe it can slow him down. Slow him enough that Cleveland can go toe to toe scoring wise.

I think while LeBron will still get his 20+ points, the Wallace factor may take away the double team aspect so the rest of the Cavs' lineup can stay honest with LeBron's shooters. And TBH, i'd be fine with LBJ scoring 30 as long as his supporting cast is shut down completely.

Assuming that LBJ runs Iso's and Pick and rolls, Mysynergy has Wallace allowing 0.77 PPP on iso's and 0.84 PPP on PnR Ball Handlers. Not sure if it will be good enough. But if he can at least contain LBJ one on one without getting any help, then Tony Allen shuts down Monta, the Cavs will have a fighting chance, a ton of it IMO.

Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: sofutomygaha on September 12, 2013, 09:52:23 AM
KG at full strength is superior to Ibaka. Play this season out 10 times, though, and Garnett is limping through the playoffs in at least six of them while Ibaka is at full strength. We've already seen it happen and Garnett is even older now.

I'm rooting for Cleveland, but this is a mismatch.

Minnesota is going to dictate the pace of this game, Cleveland will have to chose between playing a lineup that can keep up with the pace and defend but can't penetrate the Bradley-James-Ibaka shell in order to capitalize on the soft-Jordan-underbelly, or a lineup that simply can't keep up and will get murdered in transition.

The only thing that can stop Minnesota from taking this in five games is Monta Ellis trying to get his.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 11:19:59 AM
Morning everyone. Glad to see that there's been a good amount of discussion and that people are giving Cleveland a fighting chance.

I just want to post some strategical points...

Quote
Defense:
- LeBron James will always be defended by one of Tony Allen or Gerald Wallace. Both are skilled enough and tough enough to slow him down
- The much-less-efficient Monta Ellis will be defended by Caron Butler or Jamal Crawford (or Tony Allen if Wallace is on the floor). We want Monta taking more shots than LeBron
- We may also go with a starting lineup of Lawson-Butler-Wallace-Horford-Garnett. This will keep defensive pressure on LeBron, keep 3pt shooting in the starting lineup, and further bait Monta to chuck. Hollins will make the call on that
- Serge Ibaka will be defended by the Al Horford. Ibaka can spread the floor, but the quick-footed Horford can keep up with him
- DeAndre Jordan will be defended by Kevin Garnett. Jordan, while athletic, cannot do much else on offense other than dunk. With Garnett on him, those dunks won't come easily
- Avery Bradley will be defended by Ty Lawson. Ty is more than quick enough to keep up with Bradley, and that's really all you have to do to stop him offensively: stay with him on his cuts and contest his jumpers

Offense:
- Whenever Serge Ibaka is on the floor, Kevin Garnett and Al Horford will be as well. Ibaka will have to guard one of them, and whomever he is guarding will be told to pull him out towards the 3pt line (both are good long-range jump shooters), opening up the basket for Lawson, Crawford, and the other big man
- If LeBron is put on Lawson, then either 6'2" Avery Bradley or 6'3" Monta Ellis is guarding 6'7" (and much stronger) Gerald Wallace, who will post up like crazy
- If Bradley is put on Lawson, well, as much as I hate to be hypocritical, I'll just leave this here: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=lawsoty01&p2=bradlav01
- Horford or Garnett should both be able to score on DeAndre Jordan with ease. While Jordan is strong and a good shot-blocker, his team defense is quite poor

Bottom line:
LeBron James is the best player in the world. I don't deny it and I don't think anyone else does. But this LeBron team does not have enough firepower at the other positions to win a title. It is closer to his Cleveland teams than to his Miami teams (through no fault of McHP). My Cleveland squad was constructed for the playoffs and for clutch situations. They will pull out this series win and give KG his second title.

I'm around for a bit to answer questions. Go Cavs.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 11:26:00 AM
KG at full strength is superior to Ibaka. Play this season out 10 times, though, and Garnett is limping through the playoffs in at least six of them while Ibaka is at full strength. We've already seen it happen and Garnett is even older now.

I'm curious about this, even outside the context of this game.

I've been pretty vocal that I'm still a believer in KG (and Pierce).  I was disappointed to see him traded.

When you talk about him being likely to "limp through the playoffs", what specifically are you talking about?

He was obviously banged up in 2009.  In 2010 - 2013, though, KG has been the least of our problems from my perspective. 

In 2012, he averaged 19 points and 10+ rebounds.  In 2013, he averaged 13 points and 14 rebounds (which led the league).  He was excellent against Miami in 2012, averaging approximately those same 19 points and 10 rebounds, including games where he scored 26 and 24 points.

I don't think it's likely that KG will be hobbled at all.  AB indicated that KG sat out back to backs and was under a minutes restriction during the regular season.  I certainly don't think that there's a 60% chance that KG will be gimping around out there.

Quote
The only thing that can stop Minnesota from taking this in five games is Monta Ellis trying to get his.

Doesn't Monta Ellis always try to "get his"?
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 11:27:32 AM
The only thing that can stop Minnesota from taking this in five games is Monta Ellis trying to get his.

Doesn't Monta Ellis always try to "get his"?

He does, and we're gonna let him. If Monta takes more shots than LeBron, our defense has done its job.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on September 12, 2013, 11:37:39 AM
The only thing that can stop Minnesota from taking this in five games is Monta Ellis trying to get his.

Doesn't Monta Ellis always try to "get his"?

He does, and we're gonna let him. If Monta takes more shots than LeBron, our defense has done its job.

But Monta Ellis have it all. What else is there to get?  ;D
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 11:38:47 AM
Question for Minnesota:  Does the fact that Monta Ellis has only been to the playoffs twice in his career have anything to do with his style of play?

What do you make of the fact that Monta's career playoff averages are 9.7 points per game on 40.9% shooting (and 14.3% 3PT shooting?)

Does it concern you that in a first round sweep last year, Monta averaged only 14 points and 3.5 turnovers?

Monta's career playoff TS% is .464!!!!  Isn't that horrificly awful?  What about his career playoff ORtg of 87, or his career DRtg of 111?

Is it fair to say that Monta Ellis has been one of the worst playoff performers ever for a guy of his supposed talent?
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 11:43:27 AM
I had no idea that Monta was that bad.  We all knew he was a chucker, and I've argued for years that Monta can't win a championship, but I had no idea that his track record was so God-awful.

This is the second leading scorer on Minnesota.  That's got to concern you, right, MP?
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 11:45:03 AM
It's true Roy: Monta is an awful playoff performer and LeBron is one of the best. We're going to divert all of our attention to LeBron and let Monta shoot the Wolves out of the game. And from those stats you posted, people can see it'll happen.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 11:53:07 AM
It's true Roy: Monta is an awful playoff performer and LeBron is one of the best. We're going to divert all of our attention to LeBron and let Monta shoot the Mavs out of the game. And from those stats you posted, people can see it'll happen.

Yeah...  This probably looks like a coordinated tag team (it's not), but when a voter mentioned that Cleveland only wins if Monta tries to "get his", it made me question when Monta *doesn't* try to get his.

I'm so disappointed by Monta Ellis.  I've followed him since high school, since he was linked to Danny Ainge.  He had so much promise as a rookie, and he helped me win a fantasy league title early on.  So, initially, he was a bit of a binky.

But man, he's just been such a chucker that I did a complete 180 on the kid.  I've argued for years that he can't help a team win, and that I couldn't imagine what a Monta Ellis title team would look like.

He hasn't changed, and he hasn't grown.  Last year against Milwaukee, he shot 15.8% on threes.  That didn't stop him from taking 4.8 three pointers per game.  He choked under pressure at the line, too, shooting 37.5%.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on September 12, 2013, 11:54:22 AM
I had no idea that Monta was that bad.  We all knew he was a chucker, and I've argued for years that Monta can't win a championship, but I had no idea that his track record was so God-awful.

This is the second leading scorer on Minnesota.  That's got to concern you, right, MP?

Second scorer. Meaning the offense doesnt run through him compare to his stints in Milwaukee and Dubs before.

It's a concern, but not that big IMO. He's not going to carry the offense this time, he's just going to provide some more punch.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 11:56:37 AM
I had no idea that Monta was that bad.  We all knew he was a chucker, and I've argued for years that Monta can't win a championship, but I had no idea that his track record was so God-awful.

This is the second leading scorer on Minnesota.  That's got to concern you, right, MP?

Second scorer. Meaning the offense doesnt run through him compare to his stints in Milwaukee and Dubs before.

It's a concern, but not that big IMO. He's not going to carry the offense this time, he's just going to provide some more punch.

If we keep LeBron smothered, which we intend to, who's gonna be left open for the clutch shot? Monta.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on September 12, 2013, 12:04:56 PM
I had no idea that Monta was that bad.  We all knew he was a chucker, and I've argued for years that Monta can't win a championship, but I had no idea that his track record was so God-awful.

This is the second leading scorer on Minnesota.  That's got to concern you, right, MP?

Second scorer. Meaning the offense doesnt run through him compare to his stints in Milwaukee and Dubs before.

It's a concern, but not that big IMO. He's not going to carry the offense this time, he's just going to provide some more punch.

If we keep LeBron smothered, which we intend to, who's gonna be left open for the clutch shot? Monta.

I wouldnt bet on that. Monta maybe inefficient as a 1 dollar pack of batteries, but that man is clutch.

Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 12:05:50 PM
I had no idea that Monta was that bad.  We all knew he was a chucker, and I've argued for years that Monta can't win a championship, but I had no idea that his track record was so God-awful.

This is the second leading scorer on Minnesota.  That's got to concern you, right, MP?

Second scorer. Meaning the offense doesnt run through him compare to his stints in Milwaukee and Dubs before.

It's a concern, but not that big IMO. He's not going to carry the offense this time, he's just going to provide some more punch.

A second scorer is important, though.

In games 1 through 3 last year, Wade averaged 14.3 points per game on 44% shooting (a number that Monta is unlikely to reach, by the way).  The Heat went 1-2.

In games 4 through 7 last year, Wade averaged 23.5 points per game on 49.4% shooting.  The Heat went 3-1.

Everybody knows that Michael Jordan didn't start winning titles until Scottie Pippen came around.  Lebron didn't start winning until he got Wade and Bosh.

Has any team in the history of the NBA won with a #2 as bad as Monta Ellis?  Arguably the 1994 Rockets, but that's about it.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 12:06:18 PM
I wouldnt bet on that. Monta maybe inefficient as a 1 dollar pack of batteries, but that man is clutch.

Based upon what?  He certainly hasn't been clutch in his playoff career, especially when he was bricking over 60% of his freebies.

EDIT:  I just looked it up, Yoki. 

Ellis' "clutch" stats (late in the 4th / OT, game within 5 points):

2008:  .296 eFG% on jumpers
2009:  .261 eFG% on jumpers
2010:  .356 eFG% on jumpers
2011: .436 eFG% on jumpers
2012:  .487 eFG% on jumpers
2013: .437 eFG% on jumpers

So, Ellis has had one season where he's been decent in the clutch, two season where he's been pretty bad, and three seasons when he has been absolutely terrible.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 12:07:25 PM
I wouldnt bet on that. Monta maybe inefficient as a 1 dollar pack of batteries, but that man is clutch.

Based upon what?  He certainly hasn't been clutch in his playoff career, especially when he was bricking over 60% of his freebies.

And even if he was clutch, he'd still be less clutch than LeBron.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on September 12, 2013, 12:09:30 PM
I had no idea that Monta was that bad.  We all knew he was a chucker, and I've argued for years that Monta can't win a championship, but I had no idea that his track record was so God-awful.

This is the second leading scorer on Minnesota.  That's got to concern you, right, MP?

Second scorer. Meaning the offense doesnt run through him compare to his stints in Milwaukee and Dubs before.

It's a concern, but not that big IMO. He's not going to carry the offense this time, he's just going to provide some more punch.

A second scorer is important, though.

In games 1 through 3 last year, Wade averaged 14.3 points per game on 44% shooting (a number that Monta is unlikely to reach, by the way).  The Heat went 1-2.

In games 4 through 7 last year, Wade averaged 23.5 points per game on 49.4% shooting.  The Heat went 3-1.

Everybody knows that Michael Jordan didn't start winning titles until Scottie Pippen came around.  Lebron didn't start winning until he got Wade and Bosh.

Has any team in the history of the NBA won with a #2 as bad as Monta Ellis?  Arguably the 1994 Rockets, but that's about it.

Yes, but the second scorer does not get the best defender the opponent has.

LeBron is getting all the attention, the opponents energy and everybody is focused on how to stop him. This is the same as when Monta was the primary option, the focus is to stop Monta.

But he's not, he's getting pretty much a head start because you have to double team LeBron, and Monta is ultra skilled, can beat you in many ways.

This is why I posted the Wallace argument, if Gerald can go one on one with James, then Tony can make sure Monta "wont have it all". But Cleveland has to double LeBron, leaving Monta open, I think he'll do a ton of damage. Not Wade efficient, but enough to knock Cleveland out.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 12:12:30 PM
This is why I posted the Wallace argument, if Gerald can go one on one with James, then Tony can make sure Monta "wont have it all". But Cleveland has to double LeBron, leaving Monta open, I think he'll do a ton of damage. Not Wade efficient, but enough to knock Cleveland out.

I never said Monta will be doubled. I said in my talking points on the previous page that Wallace will cover LeBron and Tony Allen will spend time on Monta. I think Monta will struggle mightily against Tony Allen, who will keep him out of a rhythm so that when Crawford or Butler is in (to provide offense), Monta will have trouble getting going.

It's a perfect balance of offense and defense, really.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on September 12, 2013, 12:13:59 PM
I wouldnt bet on that. Monta maybe inefficient as a 1 dollar pack of batteries, but that man is clutch.

Based upon what?  He certainly hasn't been clutch in his playoff career, especially when he was bricking over 60% of his freebies.

He only had two playoff appearances. One with GSW who he was a solid part but was still young and playing off the bench. And one with Milwaukee in which they are COMPLETELY mismatched. That's unfair to say that Ellis isn't clutch in the Playoffs, because he hasn't been in a position to be on, especially when you're getting blown out because his team is just way inferior.

But in times during the regular season with the Dubs, boy is he clutch. Game tying baskets, game winners, dagger shots. He did it. I get the hate for Monta, but I can't deny his clutchness. I saw it first hand. Now with LeBron on his side, you smother James and give him that opportunity, like I said, I wouldn't bet on it. He has enough of a regular season track record of clutchness for me.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on September 12, 2013, 12:16:24 PM
This is why I posted the Wallace argument, if Gerald can go one on one with James, then Tony can make sure Monta "wont have it all". But Cleveland has to double LeBron, leaving Monta open, I think he'll do a ton of damage. Not Wade efficient, but enough to knock Cleveland out.

I never said Monta will be doubled. I said in my talking points on the previous page that Wallace will cover LeBron and Tony Allen will spend time on Monta. I think Monta will struggle mightily against Tony Allen, who will keep him out of a rhythm so that when Crawford or Butler is in (to provide offense), Monta will have trouble getting going.

It's a perfect balance of offense and defense, really.

I have never said Monta had to be doubled either. What I said was if they have to double LeBron with another wing, leaving Monta an foot or two to work, it might cause trouble.

Heck, I think if you put Butler on Monta, it might cause trouble. Now if Allen is in his grill, then you contain him. But that leaves LeBron one on one and unless the bigs double on him, in which LBJ makes you pay, I'm not sure Crash can contain LBJ enough.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 12:17:25 PM
I wouldnt bet on that. Monta maybe inefficient as a 1 dollar pack of batteries, but that man is clutch.

Based upon what?  He certainly hasn't been clutch in his playoff career, especially when he was bricking over 60% of his freebies.

He only had two playoff appearances. One with GSW who he was a solid part but was still young and playing off the bench. And one with Milwaukee in which they are COMPLETELY mismatched. That's unfair to say that Ellis isn't clutch in the Playoffs, because he hasn't been in a position to be on, especially when you're getting blown out because his team is just way inferior.

But in times during the regular season with the Dubs, boy is he clutch. Game tying baskets, game winners, dagger shots. He did it. I get the hate for Monta, but I can't deny his clutchness. I saw it first hand. Now with LeBron on his side, you smother James and give him that opportunity, like I said, I wouldn't bet on it. He has enough of a regular season track record of clutchness for me.

I posted the numbers above.  I think your view might be colored by perception bias.  We remember the good things (i.e., game winners) a lot more than we do the bad (bricks, lots and lots of bricks.)
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: dark_lord on September 12, 2013, 12:20:21 PM
the thing with ellis, regardless of his previous numbers, that people aren't taking into consideration, is that he will be playing alongside with lbj.  his looks and ability to slash will be beneficial and easier for him.  lbj commands so much attention and impact the oppositions individual, as well as team defense (and rotation). I mean, lbj made mo Williams an all star then to a nobody.

this is a hypothetical game, so in the case of ellis, I don't care about previous numbers, bc this hypothetical circumstance make me think he will score effectively and easily.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on September 12, 2013, 12:22:46 PM
I wouldnt bet on that. Monta maybe inefficient as a 1 dollar pack of batteries, but that man is clutch.

Based upon what?  He certainly hasn't been clutch in his playoff career, especially when he was bricking over 60% of his freebies.

He only had two playoff appearances. One with GSW who he was a solid part but was still young and playing off the bench. And one with Milwaukee in which they are COMPLETELY mismatched. That's unfair to say that Ellis isn't clutch in the Playoffs, because he hasn't been in a position to be on, especially when you're getting blown out because his team is just way inferior.

But in times during the regular season with the Dubs, boy is he clutch. Game tying baskets, game winners, dagger shots. He did it. I get the hate for Monta, but I can't deny his clutchness. I saw it first hand. Now with LeBron on his side, you smother James and give him that opportunity, like I said, I wouldn't bet on it. He has enough of a regular season track record of clutchness for me.

I posted the numbers above.  I think your view might be colored by perception bias.  We remember the good things (i.e., game winners) a lot more than we do the bad (bricks, lots and lots of bricks.)

I get the point his numbers are bad, as the primary scorer and the guy coming off the bench. I get it.

IMO it's a different story if he plays a different role, especially with someone who commands a ton of attention. He gets more easy opportunities compare to being the one who's doing a lot just to cut the lead to 10 points.

Guess agree to disagree.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Who on September 12, 2013, 12:25:12 PM
I think Tony Allen can really get up and under Monta Ellis. Neutralize him.

But Caron Butler? No hope in hell. Too slow. Can't defend Monta.
Or Jamal Crawford? Lousy defender. On the bright side, I don't think Monta can defend him either.

Against those two guys, I think Monta Ellis can put up big numbers especially when Minnesota goes small and creates all that extra spacing for a slasher like Monta to attack.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 12:27:28 PM
the thing with ellis, regardless of his previous numbers, that people aren't taking into consideration, is that he will be playing alongside with lbj.  his looks and ability to slash will be beneficial and easier for him.  I mean, lbj made mo Williams an all star then to a nobody.

this is a hypothetical game, so in the case of ellis, I don't care about previous numbers, bc this hypothetical circumstance make me think he will score effectively and easily.

I get the argument, DL, but Lebron James isn't magic.  He can't suddenly turn an inefficient chucker into a brilliant second fiddle.

I mean, you mention Mo Williams, but the season before he joined Cleveland, he averaged 17 points, 6 assists, and most importantly, a .528 eFG% / .566 TS%.  His numbers went up *very* slightly in Cleveland playing next to Lebron.

Last season, Ellis had a .448 eFG% / .493 TS% (!!!).  I'm not sure if you understand advanced metrics / efficiency stats, but those numbers are beyond terrible.

Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 12, 2013, 12:27:47 PM
This is why I posted the Wallace argument, if Gerald can go one on one with James, then Tony can make sure Monta "wont have it all". But Cleveland has to double LeBron, leaving Monta open, I think he'll do a ton of damage. Not Wade efficient, but enough to knock Cleveland out.

I never said Monta will be doubled. I said in my talking points on the previous page that Wallace will cover LeBron and Tony Allen will spend time on Monta. I think Monta will struggle mightily against Tony Allen, who will keep him out of a rhythm so that when Crawford or Butler is in (to provide offense), Monta will have trouble getting going.

It's a perfect balance of offense and defense, really.

I like Cleveland's chances in this, because I'm a firm believer in the defensive gameplan for a LeBron team that you've outlined up here.

However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: nickagneta on September 12, 2013, 12:31:17 PM
Just a thought but if Minny goes small with Ibaka at the 5 and Lebron at the four abd Battier at the 3, a line I might consider for Cleveland would be going big and busting it inside with Lawson/Crawford/Landry/Hordford/KG. I would probably try such a lineup as a counter to the Minny small ball in game 1 just to see how it did and if it was successful use it some more.

One thing real life San Antonio and Indiana showed versus Mimai's small ball line up of Chalmers/Wade/Battier/LeBron/Bosh is going big, busting the ball inside and getting very physical with them can make a huge difference. Well, Ellis is no Wade and Ibaka is now Bosh so going the same with a front court of Landry/Horford/KG might seriously effect that Minny small ball and keep such offensive liabilities as Jordan and Big Baby in the game
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 12:31:41 PM
However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.

Agreed. 

Based upon a lot of the votes, you would think that Lebron was invincible.  He's not.  Heck, he came a couple of bricked FTs away from losing last year, despite having Wade and Bosh next to him.

Monta Ellis is not a good player.  He has no business being the second best player on a team hoping to win.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 12, 2013, 12:32:47 PM
Just a thought but if Minny goes small with Ibaka at the 5 and Lebron at the four abd Battier at the 3, a line I might consider for Cleveland would be going big and busting it inside with Lawson/Crawford/Landry/Hordford/KG. I would probably try such a lineup as a counter to the Minny small ball in game 1 just to see how it did and if it was successful use it some more.

One thing real life San Antonio and Indiana showed versus Mimai's small ball line up of Chalmers/Wade/Battier/LeBron/Bosh is going big, busting the ball inside and getting very physical with them can make a huge difference. Well, Ellis is no Wade and Ibaka is now Bosh so going the same with a front court of Landry/Horford/KG might seriously effect that Minny small ball and keep such offensive liabilities as Jordan and Big Baby in the game
San Antonio went small right with Miami, they tried staying big and it was a disaster for them.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 12:33:05 PM
This is why I posted the Wallace argument, if Gerald can go one on one with James, then Tony can make sure Monta "wont have it all". But Cleveland has to double LeBron, leaving Monta open, I think he'll do a ton of damage. Not Wade efficient, but enough to knock Cleveland out.

I never said Monta will be doubled. I said in my talking points on the previous page that Wallace will cover LeBron and Tony Allen will spend time on Monta. I think Monta will struggle mightily against Tony Allen, who will keep him out of a rhythm so that when Crawford or Butler is in (to provide offense), Monta will have trouble getting going.

It's a perfect balance of offense and defense, really.

I like Cleveland's chances in this, because I'm a firm believer in the defensive gameplan for a LeBron team that you've outlined up here.

However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.

It's true about the win button, but I have two days to try to convince people. Hopefully a good chunk of voters have open minds, because I think we can get the job done.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 12, 2013, 12:33:57 PM
However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.

Agreed. 

Based upon a lot of the votes, you would think that Lebron was invincible.  He's not.  Heck, he came a couple of bricked FTs away from losing last year, despite having Wade and Bosh next to him.

Monta Ellis is not a good player.  He has no business being the second best player on a team hoping to win.
The problem I have is that I don't think Cleveland is good enough to take advantage of that.

KG is their best player, that's not good enough. He's going to decline this coming year, and heavy minutes and playoffs are going to tire him further.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 12, 2013, 12:34:16 PM
Just a thought but if Minny goes small with Ibaka at the 5 and Lebron at the four abd Battier at the 3, a line I might consider for Cleveland would be going big and busting it inside with Lawson/Crawford/Landry/Hordford/KG. I would probably try such a lineup as a counter to the Minny small ball in game 1 just to see how it did and if it was successful use it some more.

One thing real life San Antonio and Indiana showed versus Mimai's small ball line up of Chalmers/Wade/Battier/LeBron/Bosh is going big, busting the ball inside and getting very physical with them can make a huge difference. Well, Ellis is no Wade and Ibaka is now Bosh so going the same with a front court of Landry/Horford/KG might seriously effect that Minny small ball and keep such offensive liabilities as Jordan and Big Baby in the game

That's a thought.

Although, if Battier/LeBron is the forward combo for Minnesota, why not just stick with Wallace at SF? Battier's not going to do much else beyond corner threes on offense.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 12:36:06 PM
However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.

Agreed. 

Based upon a lot of the votes, you would think that Lebron was invincible.  He's not.  Heck, he came a couple of bricked FTs away from losing last year, despite having Wade and Bosh next to him.

Monta Ellis is not a good player.  He has no business being the second best player on a team hoping to win.
The problem I have is that I don't think Cleveland is good enough to take advantage of that.

KG is their best player, that's not good enough. He's going to decline this coming year, and heavy minutes and playoffs are going to tire him further.

As much as KG is the heart and soul (and defensive identity) of the team, Horford is the best player. And Lawson's pretty dang good.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 12:36:29 PM
However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.

Agreed. 

Based upon a lot of the votes, you would think that Lebron was invincible.  He's not.  Heck, he came a couple of bricked FTs away from losing last year, despite having Wade and Bosh next to him.

Monta Ellis is not a good player.  He has no business being the second best player on a team hoping to win.
The problem I have is that I don't think Cleveland is good enough to take advantage of that.

KG is their best player, that's not good enough.

First, I guess I fundamentally disagree about the value of KG.  I think he can still be a vital cog in a championship team.

Second, Al Horford is a fantastic player.

Third, Ty Lawson is really, really good, as well.

Last, the fit of Cleveland is simply fantastic.  I see this team gelling as a "whole is better than the sum of its parts" type of team, similar to the 2013 Red Sox (dang, I hope that didn't just jinx them.)
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: nickagneta on September 12, 2013, 12:36:37 PM
Just a thought but if Minny goes small with Ibaka at the 5 and Lebron at the four abd Battier at the 3, a line I might consider for Cleveland would be going big and busting it inside with Lawson/Crawford/Landry/Hordford/KG. I would probably try such a lineup as a counter to the Minny small ball in game 1 just to see how it did and if it was successful use it some more.

One thing real life San Antonio and Indiana showed versus Mimai's small ball line up of Chalmers/Wade/Battier/LeBron/Bosh is going big, busting the ball inside and getting very physical with them can make a huge difference. Well, Ellis is no Wade and Ibaka is now Bosh so going the same with a front court of Landry/Horford/KG might seriously effect that Minny small ball and keep such offensive liabilities as Jordan and Big Baby in the game

That's a thought.

Although, if Battier/LeBron is the forward combo for Minnesota, why not just stick with Wallace at SF? Battier's not going to do much else beyond corner threes on offense.
Because of Landry's better physical offensive game and an equal ability to cover Battier sitting in corners
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 12, 2013, 12:37:51 PM
However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.

Agreed. 

Based upon a lot of the votes, you would think that Lebron was invincible.  He's not.  Heck, he came a couple of bricked FTs away from losing last year, despite having Wade and Bosh next to him.

Monta Ellis is not a good player.  He has no business being the second best player on a team hoping to win.
The problem I have is that I don't think Cleveland is good enough to take advantage of that.

KG is their best player, that's not good enough. He's going to decline this coming year, and heavy minutes and playoffs are going to tire him further.

As much as KG is the heart and soul (and defensive identity) of the team, Horford is the best player. And Lawson's pretty dang good.
If KG has declined so much that Al Horford (or Ty Lawson) is now the best player on your team you have no shot at all.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 12, 2013, 12:39:40 PM
However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.

Agreed. 

Based upon a lot of the votes, you would think that Lebron was invincible.  He's not.  Heck, he came a couple of bricked FTs away from losing last year, despite having Wade and Bosh next to him.

Monta Ellis is not a good player.  He has no business being the second best player on a team hoping to win.
The problem I have is that I don't think Cleveland is good enough to take advantage of that.

KG is their best player, that's not good enough. He's going to decline this coming year, and heavy minutes and playoffs are going to tire him further.

As much as KG is the heart and soul (and defensive identity) of the team, Horford is the best player. And Lawson's pretty dang good.

I rank those three (and arguably Tony Allen) as the next best players in this series, given their particular roles and how they fill them. Perhaps Ibaka ahead of Allen.

As with the WCF, there's a lamentable dearth of direct evidence as to how Avery Bradley matches up against his defensive assignment. FWIW:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=lawsoty01&p2=bradlav01

5 games sample size, and two games ought to be tossed out due to AB's lack of PT.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 12:39:44 PM
Nick made a point in another thread that people were underrating Landry. I just want to remind everyone how good he is.

Personally, I think he's one of the best third bigs in the league. In just 23 minutes per game last year, he put up 11 ppg on .540 shooting and .605 TS% and 6 rpg. And he plays tough defense.

As much attention as our starting lineup gets, Landry (and Crawford) can be difference makers in their own right.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on September 12, 2013, 12:41:07 PM
However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.

Agreed. 

Based upon a lot of the votes, you would think that Lebron was invincible.  He's not.  Heck, he came a couple of bricked FTs away from losing last year, despite having Wade and Bosh next to him.

Monta Ellis is not a good player.  He has no business being the second best player on a team hoping to win.

I doubt that he's the second best player anyway. He's the second scoring option, but certainly not the second best player. I give that to Serge Ibaka.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 12:43:02 PM
However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.

Agreed. 

Based upon a lot of the votes, you would think that Lebron was invincible.  He's not.  Heck, he came a couple of bricked FTs away from losing last year, despite having Wade and Bosh next to him.

Monta Ellis is not a good player.  He has no business being the second best player on a team hoping to win.

I doubt that he's the second best player anyway. He's the second scoring option, but certainly not the second best player. I give that to Serge Ibaka.

Well, Ibaka has his own problems; look at last year's playoffs, where he was assigned too large of a role. 

But "second scoring option", then.  Teams with inefficient chuckers as their second scoring options don't win a lot of titles.

Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on September 12, 2013, 12:43:49 PM
Nick made a point in another thread that people were underrating Landry. I just want to remind everyone how good he is.

Personally, I think he's one of the best third bigs in the league. In just 23 minutes per game last year, he put up 11 ppg on .540 shooting and .605 TS% and 6 rpg. And he plays tough defense.

As much attention as our starting lineup gets, Landry (and Crawford) can be difference makers in their own right.

Completely forgot you have Carl Landry in your team.

I'm such a derp. He definitely makes a big impact.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 12:43:57 PM
5 games sample size, and two games ought to be tossed out due to AB's lack of PT.

But in the two games Bradley did play significant minutes (the last two), Lawson put up 27.5 ppg on 60% shooting (yes you read that right) and 45% 3pt shooting, with 7.5 apg and 6 rpg. That's pretty beastly.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 12, 2013, 12:44:16 PM
As much attention as our starting lineup gets, Landry (and Crawford) can be difference makers in their own right.

AB, how will you use Landry again? nick suggests that he could maybe play SF, but I've always viewed Landry as an emergency/smallball C option if he's not playing the 4.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 12:45:00 PM
5 games sample size, and two games ought to be tossed out due to AB's lack of PT.

But in the two games Bradley did play significant minutes (the last two), Lawson put up 27.5 ppg on 60% shooting (yes you read that right) and 45% 3pt shooting, with 7.5 apg and 6 rpg. That's pretty beastly.

Wow.  Small sample size, but wow.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 12:46:03 PM
As much attention as our starting lineup gets, Landry (and Crawford) can be difference makers in their own right.

AB, how will you use Landry again? nick suggests that he could maybe play SF, but I've always viewed Landry as an emergency/smallball C option if he's not playing the 4.

There may be select times that Landry, Horford, and Garnett are all in the game at the same time, and I think it'll work because all 3 are great jump-shooters.

But Landry's primary role is the third big. In the IP-DKC mold of Asik, Aldridge, and Millsap, we plan on Horford, Garnett, and Landry covering just about all of the minutes at the 4-5, with Wallace maybe getting a few if Minny goes small.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Kane3387 on September 12, 2013, 12:49:56 PM
However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.

Agreed. 

Based upon a lot of the votes, you would think that Lebron was invincible.  He's not.  Heck, he came a couple of bricked FTs away from losing last year, despite having Wade and Bosh next to him.

Monta Ellis is not a good player.  He has no business being the second best player on a team hoping to win.

I agree
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 12, 2013, 12:49:56 PM
Agreed Roy. Which is brings up the issue I have with both teams, I didn't think they'd be the finalists.

Cleveland doesn't look to me to have that much more talent than some of the Hawks teams. Lawson for JJ and KG for Smith with a better fitting cast doesn't strike me as a title team. Especially with KG another year older.

Minnesota is very dependent on LeBron and I don't like Ibaka/Jordan as his big men.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 12, 2013, 12:53:31 PM
5 games sample size, and two games ought to be tossed out due to AB's lack of PT.

But in the two games Bradley did play significant minutes (the last two), Lawson put up 27.5 ppg on 60% shooting (yes you read that right) and 45% 3pt shooting, with 7.5 apg and 6 rpg. That's pretty beastly.

Wow.  Small sample size, but wow.

For the sake of argument, let's say Bradley does not fare well vs. Lawson, and Minnesota elects to put LeBron on Ty instead.

AB, what will you do to help Lawson run the offense?
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 12:57:58 PM
Cleveland doesn't look to me to have that much more talent than some of the Hawks teams. Lawson for JJ and KG for Smith with a better fitting cast doesn't strike me as a title team. Especially with KG another year older.

Ty has shown he can be the primary scorer on a playoff team recently, though... a role I don't think JJ can play anymore. And KG is a huge boost over Smith because Smith's boneheadedness and inefficiency can drag his team down.

And I think you're underselling the supporting cast. We have one of the best wing defenders in the league in Tony Allen. We have a 6MOY candidate in Jamal Crawford. We have one of the best third big men in the league in Carl Landry. We have the 10th best 3pt shooting small forward in the league last year in Caron Butler, and we have another super tough defender in Gerald Wallace.

Like Roy said, the sum of the parts is greater than the parts themselves. That was my goal going into this thing with the 19th pick. I couldn't just go BPA at that stage... I needed a perfect fit of a team that would gel together in order to go far in the playoffs.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 01:03:03 PM
5 games sample size, and two games ought to be tossed out due to AB's lack of PT.

But in the two games Bradley did play significant minutes (the last two), Lawson put up 27.5 ppg on 60% shooting (yes you read that right) and 45% 3pt shooting, with 7.5 apg and 6 rpg. That's pretty beastly.

Wow.  Small sample size, but wow.

For the sake of argument, let's say Bradley does not fare well vs. Lawson, and Minnesota elects to put LeBron on Ty instead.

AB, what will you do to help Lawson run the offense?

If this does happen, Lawson will not attempt to drive nearly as much but will instead become more of a facilitator. With LeBron on him, then 6'7" Gerald Wallace has either 6'2" Avery Bradley or 6'3" Monta Ellis covering him. Wallace might not be the offensive weapon he once was, but he can still back those guys down with ease. If this baits LeBron towards him near the rim, then Wallace (still a great passer) can hit KG, Horford, Lawson, Landry, Crawford, or Butler for a perimeter jumper. If LeBron stays camped out on the perimeter with Lawson, then whichever big man (Horford or KG) Ibaka isn't defending will collapse to the basket and have an opportunity at an easy bucket.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 12, 2013, 01:04:17 PM
Gerald Wallace didn't take advantage of Nate Robinson on him in the playoffs this year. I don't think he'll able to exploit Avery or Monta either.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 01:07:41 PM
Gerald Wallace didn't take advantage of Nate Robinson on him in the playoffs this year. I don't think he'll able to exploit Avery or Monta either.

I didn't see that matchup, but the statistics say that Wallace had a much-improved playoff campaign (all games against the Bulls) over his regular season...

Reg season 7.7 ppg on .397 shooting and .282 from three, ,490 ts%
Playoffs 12 ppg on .463 shooting and .379 from three, .554 ts%

I was actually wondering what caused Wallace to have such a quick turnaround. Maybe it was Nate Rob.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 12, 2013, 01:11:19 PM
Gerald Wallace didn't take advantage of Nate Robinson on him in the playoffs this year. I don't think he'll able to exploit Avery or Monta either.

I didn't see that matchup, but the statistics say that Wallace had a much-improved playoff campaign (all games against the Bulls) over his regular season...

Reg season 7.7 ppg on .397 shooting and .282 from three, ,490 ts%
Playoffs 12 ppg on .463 shooting and .379 from three, .554 ts%

I was actually wondering what caused Wallace to have such a quick turnaround. Maybe it was Nate Rob.
He just shot 3s, barely posted Nate Rob up at all.

Had no plan to take advantage of him, Wallace is just a guy you can hide someone on defensively. Even more so than Tony Allen who would at least sneak in for a backdoor cut or rebound on you.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 01:11:48 PM
Hey guys, Air is currently building all of the CB Draft teams on 2K13!
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 01:16:07 PM
Gerald Wallace didn't take advantage of Nate Robinson on him in the playoffs this year. I don't think he'll able to exploit Avery or Monta either.

I didn't see that matchup, but the statistics say that Wallace had a much-improved playoff campaign (all games against the Bulls) over his regular season...

Reg season 7.7 ppg on .397 shooting and .282 from three, ,490 ts%
Playoffs 12 ppg on .463 shooting and .379 from three, .554 ts%

I was actually wondering what caused Wallace to have such a quick turnaround. Maybe it was Nate Rob.
He just shot 3s, barely posted Nate Rob up at all.

Had no plan to take advantage of him, Wallace is just a guy you can hide someone on defensively. Even more so than Tony Allen who would at least sneak in for a backdoor cut or rebound on you.

Well, he seemed to really improve in the playoffs, so how he got those points might be a bit moot. Regardless, less than half of his attempts against the Bulls were three pointers, so he was operating near the rim and "Crashing" about. In some cases, this will certainly bait LeBron to him. But if the actual result is that LeBron is out on the perimeter covering Ty and Ibaka is out covering Horford or KG, that basket is looking mighty open for Wallace, Crawford, Butler, Landry, and Allen (and the other guy out of KG and Horf).
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 12, 2013, 01:18:10 PM
Good idea or bad: Tony Allen occasionally guarding LeBron.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 01:19:45 PM
Good idea or bad: Tony Allen occasionally guarding LeBron.

(http://hiphopsince1987.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/lebron-james-tony-allen.jpg)

Good idea.

(Ya can't really assume whether he got the steal here, but I'm gonna.)

I still don't really believe in head2head stats, but for those who do, LeBron has shot .372 in the playoffs against Tony Allen teams. Some of those are when Allen was playing minimal minutes on the C's, but he still shoots poorly in more recent games.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jamesle01&p2=allento01
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 12, 2013, 01:25:47 PM
Those are all from the 07-08 and 09-10 C's. So yeah moving on to the Memphis match ups...
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 01:28:06 PM
Those are all from the 07-08 and 09-10 C's. So yeah moving on.....

Meh, still something to look at. Unless you have something else.

In his 2013 game against the Grizz, LeBron shot .286. LeBron did better in 2012, but the Grizz weren't nearly as good defensively then. And I think these Cavs are as good defensively as the 2013 Grizz.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 01:37:47 PM
Keep 'em coming guys. I want to answer any questions you have.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 01:52:58 PM
I wonder if the Cavs have enough length at the rim to bother LeBron when he gets into the paint.

KG certainly does. He has fantastic size and length. However, Horford is only 6-9 with an 8-11 standing reach. Carl Landry is only 6-7/6-8 with a 8-6 standing reach. LeBron has had a lot of success against the Hawks in the past and I don't see Landry causing him any issues.

Outside of KG, I don't Cleveland's shot-blockers are going to cause LeBron many problems.

Which is a problem for me because KG is going to continue to decline.

Remember this is a one-year exercise. KG was rested during the regular season more than ever before in his career. And those are Horford and Landry's heights without shoes, just to clarify for those reading that and thinking they're both short for the position.

I'd like to congratulate AB & Air for making to the finals in their 1st go around.  That certainly is an accomplishment (much better than I did).

That said, and as nice of a guy as AB in particular is, I just don't see it.  Too weak in the wings.  I'm baffled they made it this far.  To me, wings are more important than bigs in today's NBA.

Likely leaning Minny in this series, because LeBron is LeBron.  Maybe if the Cavs had a Paul George type ;) they would have a chance.

Thanks for the kind words. I think we'll have to just disagree on wings vs. bigs though. I think team defense and rebounding are what wins in the NBA (especially in the playoffs) and you need bigs to be good at those things. And LeBron isn't a "win" button, as Lucky said.

Ibaka's main problem at the center position is that he doesn't have the physical size/toughness to matchup against the bigger bodies he faces at the C position vs PF position. KG lacks bulk (at C) too but he makes up for that with superb positional defense and greater length which Ibaka cannot do (yet?).

But when facing each other, it is a non-issue because Garnett doesn't have the type of profile / skill-set that causes Ibaka issues. Ibaka can cover him as an undersized C just as easily as when they matchup at PF.

I've hinted at this a few times, but Ibaka will be drawn out away from the basket by either KG or Horford, whoever he is put on. This will make him much less effective at shot-blocking, his best quality. So I'd say KG (or Horford) has a great skill-set to cause Ibaka's team issues. Both are great jump-shooters at the C spot.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: sofutomygaha on September 12, 2013, 01:57:15 PM
k it's likely that KG will be hobbled at all.  AB indicated that KG sat out back to backs and was under a minutes restriction during the regular season.  I certainly don't think that there's a 60% chance that KG will be gimping around out there.

Quote
The only thing that can stop Minnesota from taking this in five games is Monta Ellis trying to get his.

Doesn't Monta Ellis always try to "get his"?

But Roy, Kevin Garnett will be 38 years old in the finals. This is charitable.

What percentage of 37-38 year old players make it through an NBA season, plus playoffs, at full strength? And what percentage of those that do are worth even half what they were the year before?

Studies I've seen (like http://wagesofwins.com/2012/07/25/age-is-just-a-varible/ (http://wagesofwins.com/2012/07/25/age-is-just-a-varible/)) indicated that the WP/48 for players his age fall by more than half year over year, on average. That's for the guys who do manage to stay on the court, though! I don't know the attrition rate for 37-year-olds, but for 36-year-olds it's about 30%.

I don't mean to say that Garnett is fragile; I'm just pointing out that he has had several in-season injuries here in Boston and that he sat out the playoffs in '09. He's old, and he keeps in fantastic shape but he's not a Brett Favre never-miss-a-game iron man.

It's just not a good bet that he's going to factor significantly into this matchup.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: sofutomygaha on September 12, 2013, 02:00:42 PM
However, judging from the playoffs so far, not many other people do. LeBron is turning into a "win button" in these drafts, regardless of the personnel around him. I simply can't buy Monta Ellis riding shotgun on a LeBron train trying to reach Titletown.

Agreed. 

Based upon a lot of the votes, you would think that Lebron was invincible.  He's not.  Heck, he came a couple of bricked FTs away from losing last year, despite having Wade and Bosh next to him.

Monta Ellis is not a good player.  He has no business being the second best player on a team hoping to win.

Why do people keep saying that Monta Ellis is the second best player on Minnesota? Serge Ibaka is the second best player on Minnesota.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 02:04:02 PM
What percentage of 37-38 year old players make it through an NBA season, plus playoffs, at full strength?

KG didn't play a full season. He sat out 18 games (over a fifth of the season... going by the IRL Cleveland's schedule) and played less than 30 minutes in the games he did play.

Why do people keep saying that Monta Ellis is the second best player on Minnesota? Serge Ibaka is the second best player on Minnesota.

I think they're talking about him as the second best scorer, which he is, and that's not good. Serge is good defensively, yes, but still overrated in my book.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 12, 2013, 03:49:42 PM
If we keep LeBron smothered, which we intend to, who's gonna be left open for the clutch shot? Monta.

You won't keep LeBron smothered, that's the rub.  Nobody can (except for a very select few), and certainly not old man Wallace or Butler.  Putting TA on him would expose you in other areas, particularly in the backcourt.

Also, on the topic of Ibaka; sure, he is probably a bit overrated (I've stated this before in other threads), but he is still a star-ish type player.  You can't cheat off him too much, as he's extended his range to beyond the 3pt line.  I could see Ibaka playing the role of Bosh on this Minny team.  Maybe not quite as well, but reasonably close enough.

LeBron isn't a "win" button, as Lucky said.

"Win button", well sure, no.  But to beat a team with LeBron (that is competently built-as this Minny team is), you better be overwhelmingly better in almost all other aspects of the game.

You have a better frontcourt, but really, that's about it.  I just am not sold that will be enough.  Minny has the home court advantage as well.  That in and of itself isn't a  guarantee of anything, but it is a significant edge.

Here's a a simple, but true, mathematical inequality for you guys:  LeBron>(KG+Horford)
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 12, 2013, 03:50:11 PM
k it's likely that KG will be hobbled at all.  AB indicated that KG sat out back to backs and was under a minutes restriction during the regular season.  I certainly don't think that there's a 60% chance that KG will be gimping around out there.

Quote
The only thing that can stop Minnesota from taking this in five games is Monta Ellis trying to get his.

Doesn't Monta Ellis always try to "get his"?

But Roy, Kevin Garnett will be 38 years old in the finals. This is charitable.

What percentage of 37-38 year old players make it through an NBA season, plus playoffs, at full strength? And what percentage of those that do are worth even half what they were the year before?

Studies I've seen (like http://wagesofwins.com/2012/07/25/age-is-just-a-varible/ (http://wagesofwins.com/2012/07/25/age-is-just-a-varible/)) indicated that the WP/48 for players his age fall by more than half year over year, on average. That's for the guys who do manage to stay on the court, though! I don't know the attrition rate for 37-year-olds, but for 36-year-olds it's about 30%.

I don't mean to say that Garnett is fragile; I'm just pointing out that he has had several in-season injuries here in Boston and that he sat out the playoffs in '09. He's old, and he keeps in fantastic shape but he's not a Brett Favre never-miss-a-game iron man.

It's just not a good bet that he's going to factor significantly into this matchup.

But KG will get a full day of rest between games in the playoffs, and the Cavs are deep enough in the PF/C rotation that KG may not need to play much more than 30 minutes a night in this series.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 12, 2013, 03:53:02 PM
I think KG will need to be on the court closer to 40 minutes than 30. He's their only rim protector.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 12, 2013, 04:02:13 PM
Here's a a simple, but true, mathematical inequality for you guys:  LeBron>(KG+Horford)

Scoring wise? Maybe.

Rebounding wise? No.

PER, WS, and other quantifiable stats-wise, I'm skeptical.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 12, 2013, 04:04:34 PM
I think KG will need to be on the court closer to 40 minutes than 30. He's their only rim protector.

Horford averaged just as many blocks as KG last year.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 12, 2013, 04:06:50 PM
I think KG will need to be on the court closer to 40 minutes than 30. He's their only rim protector.

Horford averaged just as many blocks as KG last year.
Rim protection is not about blocked shots.

Horford isn't in the same class defensively as KG, especially at the C position.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 12, 2013, 04:09:41 PM
Here's a a simple, but true, mathematical inequality for you guys:  LeBron>(KG+Horford)

Scoring wise? Maybe.

Rebounding wise? No.

PER, WS, and other quantifiable stats-wise, I'm skeptical.
EWA he is (based on PER)

WS/48 too

Also RAPM LBJ is a +10, Horford is +1.7 and KG is +4.1

Wins Produced he is as well.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 12, 2013, 04:10:26 PM
I think KG will need to be on the court closer to 40 minutes than 30. He's their only rim protector.

Horford averaged just as many blocks as KG last year.

Yup, KG averaged 1.0 blocks and Horford 0.8 blocks in the playoffs last year.  Only getting 2 blocks from your starting frontcourt is kinda scary.

On the other hand Jordan averaged 1.7 blocks with Ibaka averaging 3.0 blocks in the playoffs last year.  Even LeBron averaged 0.8 blocks.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 04:12:18 PM
I think KG will need to be on the court closer to 40 minutes than 30. He's their only rim protector.

Horford averaged just as many blocks as KG last year.
Rim protection is not about blocked shots.

Horford isn't in the same class defensively as KG, especially at the C position.

So you're knocking us for having *only one* defensive player of a generation? Tough crowd. :P

KG will play 35 minutes in this series. And he can handle that with all his rest from the regular season.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 12, 2013, 04:17:18 PM
I think KG will need to be on the court closer to 40 minutes than 30. He's their only rim protector.

Horford averaged just as many blocks as KG last year.
Rim protection is not about blocked shots.

Horford isn't in the same class defensively as KG, especially at the C position.

Is it about rebounding, then? Because Horford's ORR is greater than Garnett's, and their DRR is roughly equivalent.

You're right, though: Garnett is in another class defensively. That's why I love the tandem with Horford.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: sofutomygaha on September 12, 2013, 04:18:49 PM
Guys, I know this is hard. We're Celtics fans, but you have to at least acknowledge the possibilities that

(1) KG might not be ambulatory for the playoffs

and

(2) KG playing 30 (or 40) minutes in next year's finals might not be above replacement level.

if you acknowledge the possibilities, then the next step is to try to be rational about the probabilities.

I don't like all of the decisions Minnesota made in the draft (trading Taj Gibson! Why oh why?!?!?), but one thing they deserve a lot of credit for is drafting a team of players in their primes. Their range of outcomes is very small because the odds of injury and season-over-season decline affecting the performance of their young, durable roster is relatively quite low.

Cleveland is far more exposed to decline.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 12, 2013, 04:23:45 PM
Meh, I don't KG is inherently any greater of a risk to miss the playoffs or be limited in the Finals than any other player.  Barring a severe injury, which can happen to any player at any age, I don't think it's is that big of a consideration.  That is more of a regular season issue.

KG has played plenty in the playoffs the last few years.  I don't think the body of evidence is there, to suggest he won't be able to do the same this year.

I guess it is possible he simply sees a decline in his play due to age though.  How much is the question.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 12, 2013, 04:24:15 PM
Guys, I know this is hard. We're Celtics fans, but you have to at least acknowledge the possibilities that

(1) KG might not be ambulatory for the playoffs

and

(2) KG playing 30 (or 40) minutes in next year's finals might not be above replacement level.

if you acknowledge the possibilities, then the next step is to try to be rational about the probabilities.

I don't like all of the decisions Minnesota made in the draft (trading Taj Gibson! Why oh why?!?!?), but one thing they deserve a lot of credit for is drafting a team of players in their primes. Their range of outcomes is very small because the odds of injury and season-over-season decline affecting the performance of their young, durable roster is relatively quite low.

Cleveland is far more exposed to decline.

But isn't this against the general operating principle of this exercise? I thought we were discounting injuries completely. I know I have.

KG's also on a minutes regimen during the regular season, and getting days off in between during the playoffs. Cleveland has advanced thus far in the playoffs. Do KG's wheels suddenly fall off once he reaches the Finals?
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 12, 2013, 04:28:31 PM
Guys, I know this is hard. We're Celtics fans, but you have to at least acknowledge the possibilities that

(1) KG might not be ambulatory for the playoffs

and

(2) KG playing 30 (or 40) minutes in next year's finals might not be above replacement level.

if you acknowledge the possibilities, then the next step is to try to be rational about the probabilities.

I don't like all of the decisions Minnesota made in the draft (trading Taj Gibson! Why oh why?!?!?), but one thing they deserve a lot of credit for is drafting a team of players in their primes. Their range of outcomes is very small because the odds of injury and season-over-season decline affecting the performance of their young, durable roster is relatively quite low.

Cleveland is far more exposed to decline.

But isn't this against the general operating principle of this exercise? I thought we were discounting injuries completely. I know I have.


Well, I have certainly considered injuries in this game.  I don't see anywhere in the rules that explicitly states not to.  Why shouldn't we?
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 04:29:08 PM
TPs to both KGK and Lucky. KG is old, yes, but he has never had as much rest in a regular season as he did in this exercise. He sat out one out of every five games guys.

Expect a fully healthy, ratchet-it-up-a-level-because-it's-the-playoffs Garnett in this series.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: sofutomygaha on September 12, 2013, 04:30:31 PM

But isn't this against the general operating principle of this exercise? I thought we were discounting injuries completely. I know I have.

KG's also on a minutes regimen during the regular season, and getting days off in between during the playoffs. Cleveland has advanced thus far in the playoffs. Do KG's wheels suddenly fall off once he reaches the Finals?

That is a very interesting point. If Cleveland's arrival in the finals means we should assume a priori that KG is being KG, then I absolutely withdraw all of this argument. I am certainly not trying to make the point that KG will suffer a sudden decline during the actual finals series itself.

I didn't take the rules that way.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: sofutomygaha on September 12, 2013, 04:32:08 PM
TPs to both KGK and Lucky. KG is old, yes, but he has never had as much rest in a regular season as he did in this exercise. He sat out one out of every five games guys.

Expect a fully healthy, ratchet-it-up-a-level-because-it's-the-playoffs Garnett in this series.

Look at you campaigning...
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 04:32:59 PM
Guys, I know this is hard. We're Celtics fans, but you have to at least acknowledge the possibilities that

(1) KG might not be ambulatory for the playoffs

and

(2) KG playing 30 (or 40) minutes in next year's finals might not be above replacement level.

if you acknowledge the possibilities, then the next step is to try to be rational about the probabilities.

I think there's a possibility, but it's certainly not 60%.  Closer to 5%, I'd say, but that's of course arbitrary.

The day KG plays at a replacement level is the day he retires.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 04:34:09 PM
TPs to both KGK and Lucky. KG is old, yes, but he has never had as much rest in a regular season as he did in this exercise. He sat out one out of every five games guys.

Expect a fully healthy, ratchet-it-up-a-level-because-it's-the-playoffs Garnett in this series.

Look at you campaigning...

I'm not just agreeing with them to win their vote, I'm agreeing with them because... I agree with them haha.

And I gotta campaign hard here, otherwise people will vote Wolves just because they have LeBron. LeBron is beatable folks. The Spurs almost did it, and would have if not for Ray.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 04:36:02 PM

But isn't this against the general operating principle of this exercise? I thought we were discounting injuries completely. I know I have.

KG's also on a minutes regimen during the regular season, and getting days off in between during the playoffs. Cleveland has advanced thus far in the playoffs. Do KG's wheels suddenly fall off once he reaches the Finals?

That is a very interesting point. If Cleveland's arrival in the finals means we should assume a priori that KG is being KG, then I absolutely withdraw all of this argument. I am certainly not trying to make the point that KG will suffer a sudden decline during the actual finals series itself.

I didn't take the rules that way.

Well, how did Cleveland make the Finals without a healthy KG?

There's no set rule on this, but I think a generally accepted agreement has been that if a team makes a deep playoff run (or regular season run), then injuries obviously weren't a huge factor in that season.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: sofutomygaha on September 12, 2013, 04:36:56 PM
Guys, I know this is hard. We're Celtics fans, but you have to at least acknowledge the possibilities that

(1) KG might not be ambulatory for the playoffs

and

(2) KG playing 30 (or 40) minutes in next year's finals might not be above replacement level.

if you acknowledge the possibilities, then the next step is to try to be rational about the probabilities.

I think there's a possibility, but it's certainly not 60%.  Closer to 5%, I'd say, but that's of course arbitrary.

The day KG plays at a replacement level is the day he retires.


Roy, you are telling me you honestly believe that if the Nets made the finals next year, KG would be 95% likely to play.

Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 04:38:21 PM
Guys, I know this is hard. We're Celtics fans, but you have to at least acknowledge the possibilities that

(1) KG might not be ambulatory for the playoffs

and

(2) KG playing 30 (or 40) minutes in next year's finals might not be above replacement level.

if you acknowledge the possibilities, then the next step is to try to be rational about the probabilities.

I think there's a possibility, but it's certainly not 60%.  Closer to 5%, I'd say, but that's of course arbitrary.

The day KG plays at a replacement level is the day he retires.


Roy, you are telling me you honestly believe that if the Nets made the finals next year, KG would be 95% likely to play.

If the Nets are in the Finals next season, I think it's about 99.8% likely that KG has been healthy and contributing, and that he'll play in the Finals.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 12, 2013, 04:39:05 PM
I think that's the generally advanced argument of those who want to minimize age/injury.

As for KG I'm sure he'd be on the court, the question is at what level he's playing at. I'm thinking late last year when they rested him. He didn't look good at all and they shut him down prepping for the playoffs.

That's the sort of thing that concerns me about KG, that and that his peak play will drop from KG to more along the lines of Okafor or Robin Lopez. (from top 20 guy to high level defensive role player)
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 12, 2013, 04:40:45 PM
There's no set rule on this, but I think a generally accepted agreement has been that if a team makes a deep playoff run (or regular season run), then injuries obviously weren't a huge factor in that season.

I never heard of this "agreement", but that is how I viewed it.  Basically, I deducted for injuries in the regular season, but figured, if the team made the playoffs, the player was likely healthy enough to contribute (barring recent and notable history suggesting otherwise-Amare Stoudemire for example).
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 12, 2013, 04:41:02 PM
I think KG will need to be on the court closer to 40 minutes than 30. He's their only rim protector.

Horford averaged just as many blocks as KG last year.
Rim protection is not about blocked shots.

Horford isn't in the same class defensively as KG, especially at the C position.

So you're knocking us for having *only one* defensive player of a generation? Tough crowd.

KG will play 35 minutes in this series. And he can handle that with all his rest from the regular season.

KG is playing no more than 28 mpg during the regular season, right?

And he never played in back to backs?

So he probably never played more than 85 minutes in a given week, and likely less the far majority of weeks.

This however will be well into his 2nd month of 35 minute games, 3 times a week, with heavy travel. If you figure that each series was 6 games, he plays 35 minutes a game, he'll be walking into this Finals after playing 630 minutes in roughly 7 weeks, whereas if you assume no back to backs and a few missed games here and there, it would've taken him basically 2 months to play the same minutes during the regular season.

With the way he ran out of gas during the long conference finals run in 2012(talkin' bout the last 2 games), anyone else think that KG doesn't have it in him to go the full road to the trophy as a centerpiece component at 35 minutes a night?

Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 04:41:46 PM
I think that's the generally advanced argument of those who want to minimize age/injury.

As for KG I'm sure he'd be on the court, the question is at what level he's playing at. I'm thinking late last year when they rested him. He didn't look good at all and they shut him down prepping for the playoffs.

That's the sort of thing that concerns me about KG, that and that his peak play will drop from KG to more along the lines of Okafor or Robin Lopez. (from top 20 guy to high level defensive role player)

Is Okafor with a great jumper that bad of a player?  Lopez doesn't have the same level of defense, but give him range out to 20 feet, and he'd be pretty nice, too.

But, KG isn't there yet.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 12, 2013, 04:42:15 PM
Oh, I see other people do have this concern and we're discussing it now. I had to write that question in pieces cuz customers kept walking in.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 12, 2013, 04:44:00 PM
I think that's the generally advanced argument of those who want to minimize age/injury.

As for KG I'm sure he'd be on the court, the question is at what level he's playing at. I'm thinking late last year when they rested him. He didn't look good at all and they shut him down prepping for the playoffs.

That's the sort of thing that concerns me about KG, that and that his peak play will drop from KG to more along the lines of Okafor or Robin Lopez. (from top 20 guy to high level defensive role player)

Is Okafor with a great jumper that bad of a player?  Lopez doesn't have the same level of defense, but give him range out to 20 feet, and he'd be pretty nice, too.

But, KG isn't there yet.
He might be this next year. And he wouldn't be a bad player, but he'd be a average to slightly above average starter.

Not the best player on his team, which is what Cleveland needs from him in my view. But I'm not all that high on Ty Lawson/Horford.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: sofutomygaha on September 12, 2013, 04:44:55 PM
Guys, I know this is hard. We're Celtics fans, but you have to at least acknowledge the possibilities that

(1) KG might not be ambulatory for the playoffs

and

(2) KG playing 30 (or 40) minutes in next year's finals might not be above replacement level.

if you acknowledge the possibilities, then the next step is to try to be rational about the probabilities.

I think there's a possibility, but it's certainly not 60%.  Closer to 5%, I'd say, but that's of course arbitrary.

The day KG plays at a replacement level is the day he retires.


Roy, you are telling me you honestly believe that if the Nets made the finals next year, KG would be 95% likely to play.

If the Nets are in the Finals next season, I think it's about 99.8% likely that KG has been healthy and contributing, and that he'll play in the Finals.

What you have just told me is that the Nets only have a 0.2% chance of making the finals without a healthy and effective KG. I might even agree with that statement, but it's not the question I mean to ask.

What I am asking is this. If you tried to put 37-year-old KG through 65 regular season games and then another 20 playoff games, what are the odds that he'd make it?
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 12, 2013, 04:46:11 PM
Is Okafor with a great jumper that bad of a player?

Okafor isn't a bad player, as is.  I just don't understand how you can not see this, and why you insist on being so wrong about him.

Off-topic though, I guess.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: sofutomygaha on September 12, 2013, 04:48:08 PM
I think KG will need to be on the court closer to 40 minutes than 30. He's their only rim protector.

Horford averaged just as many blocks as KG last year.
Rim protection is not about blocked shots.

Horford isn't in the same class defensively as KG, especially at the C position.

So you're knocking us for having *only one* defensive player of a generation? Tough crowd.

KG will play 35 minutes in this series. And he can handle that with all his rest from the regular season.

KG is playing no more than 28 mpg during the regular season, right?

And he never played in back to backs?

So he probably never played more than 85 minutes in a given week, and likely less the far majority of weeks.

This however will be well into his 2nd month of 35 minute games, 3 times a week, with heavy travel. If you figure that each series was 6 games, he plays 35 minutes a game, he'll be walking into this Finals after playing 630 minutes in roughly 7 weeks, whereas if you assume no back to backs and a few missed games here and there, it would've taken him basically 2 months to play the same minutes during the regular season.

With the way he ran out of gas during the long conference finals run in 2012(talkin' bout the last 2 games), anyone else think that KG doesn't have it in him to go the full road to the trophy as a centerpiece component at 35 minutes a night?

This is the argument that I'm making. AB and others are saying we should assume KG has made it this far healthy, but I don't think that's fair to Minnie, who has fielded a legitimately far more durable team.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 04:48:45 PM
But I'm not all that high on Ty Lawson/Horford.

Really? A lot of people around here seem to realize that both Lawson and Horford are both very underrated players at their positions. Maybe you want to read my blurbs on them in the presser?

And to address the general KG conversation: during all of these playoff runs (or at least since Perk left) KG was the only above-average defensive big man on the Celtics. Now he's playing alongside Horford (very good defensively) and Landry (above-average defensively). That will relieve him of some pressure and allow him to play better on both ends of the floor.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Who on September 12, 2013, 04:52:30 PM
But I'm not all that high on Ty Lawson/Horford.

Really? A lot of people around here seem to realize that both Lawson and Horford are both very underrated players at their positions. Maybe you want to read my blurbs on them in the presser?

And to address the general KG conversation: during all of these playoff runs (or at least since Perk left) KG was the only above-average defensive big man on the Celtics. Now he's playing alongside Horford (very good defensively) and Landry (above-average defensively). That will relieve him of some pressure and allow him to play better on both ends of the floor.

Carl Landry isn't above average defensively. Mediocre defender.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 04:55:34 PM
I'm glad to see that people are nitpicking with my team. I really am. If they didn't consider us to have a shot against the Wolves they wouldn't be doing it.

But I'd remind people that there is another team to be critiqued here. A team that, outside of LeBron, is fairly weak in my opinion.

Try not to view the Cavs as the guy who's not good enough to date your daughter (beat a LeBron team). Try to view them impartially and evaluate whether the match (the right pieces in the right places to beat said LeBron team) is there.

I don't even know if that metaphor makes sense, but the sentiment is there, in my head at least.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 04:58:16 PM
Carl Landry isn't above average defensively. Mediocre defender.

He had 1.9 DWS in just 23 minutes per game last year, and that was on a team that gave up over 100 ppg. He's strong and he's quick. I'll have to disagree with you there.

Quote from: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1278625-golden-state-warriors-why-carl-landry-is-an-absolute-steal
On the defensive end, Landry is also surprisingly effective. In situations where he was the primary defender, Landry allowed an average of .79 points per play last year—a figure that ranks him in the top 20 percent of NBA players.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: sofutomygaha on September 12, 2013, 04:59:27 PM
But I'm not all that high on Ty Lawson/Horford.

And to address the general KG conversation: during all of these playoff runs (or at least since Perk left) KG was the only above-average defensive big man on the Celtics. Now he's playing alongside Horford (very good defensively) and Landry (above-average defensively). That will relieve him of some pressure and allow him to play better on both ends of the floor.

I can't let you sneak that one by... this is not obvious or generally accepted and I doubt it's true. Even in his best year defensively, which was last year, opposing 4's had a 15 PER against him and centers murdered him. The Warriors were only sliiiightly better on defense with him on the floor, which is even fainter praise considering that he was usually subbing in for a man that many consider the worst defensive PF in basketball.


by the way... I also googled "Carl Landry defense" and that bleacher report quote was the only nice thing I could find that anybody said about him!
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 05:03:02 PM
I can't let you sneak that one by... this is not obvious or generally accepted and I doubt it's true. Even in his best year defensively, which was last year, opposing 4's had a 15 PER against him and centers murdered him. The Warriors were only sliiiightly better on defense with him on the floor, which is even fainter praise considering that he was usually subbing in for a man that many consider the worst defensive PF in basketball.

WOAH... where did that come from? Who are these "many" you're referring to? You might want to take a look at my above post. And if Nick is around he'll back me up that Landry plays solid defense.

KG and Horford in the front court is ridiculous.
And something that has very seldom been brought up is Carl Landry is the first big off the bench. If he gives this Cleveland team what he gave GSW last year in real life(11 PPG, 6 RPG, 60% TS% and good defense) that is a fantastic front court no matter what two guys are out there.

And Landry won't be playing any center.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: sofutomygaha on September 12, 2013, 05:06:45 PM

I'm sorry to nitpick, AB. I agree with most of what you say here. I think we're arguing because Minnesota is such a known quantity while it seems like things could play out in a lot of ways for your team. I like the metaphor, because the guy who's good enough to date my daughter and the guy who puts together a team that will beat Lebron are two people I would very much like to meet.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 12, 2013, 05:07:04 PM
Yeah Landry isn't a good defender.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 05:07:57 PM

I'm sorry to nitpick, AB. I agree with most of what you say here. I think we're arguing because Minnesota is such a known quantity while it seems like things could play out in a lot of ways for your team. I like the metaphor, because the guy who's good enough to date my daughter and the guy who puts together a team that will beat Lebron are two people I would very much like to meet.

Like I said, bring on the nitpicking. I want everyone's questions answered and then for them to make an informed decision.

And as for the latter guy, I think that can be me ;D
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: sofutomygaha on September 12, 2013, 05:08:41 PM
I can't let you sneak that one by... this is not obvious or generally accepted and I doubt it's true. Even in his best year defensively, which was last year, opposing 4's had a 15 PER against him and centers murdered him. The Warriors were only sliiiightly better on defense with him on the floor, which is even fainter praise considering that he was usually subbing in for a man that many consider the worst defensive PF in basketball.

WOAH... where did that come from? Who are these "many" you're referring to? You might want to take a look at my above post. And if Nick is around he'll back me up that Landry plays solid defense.

You don't realize that many people consider David Lee to be the worst defensive PF in basketball?
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: sofutomygaha on September 12, 2013, 05:09:37 PM

I'm sorry to nitpick, AB. I agree with most of what you say here. I think we're arguing because Minnesota is such a known quantity while it seems like things could play out in a lot of ways for your team. I like the metaphor, because the guy who's good enough to date my daughter and the guy who puts together a team that will beat Lebron are two people I would very much like to meet.

Like I said, bring on the nitpicking. I want everyone's questions answered and then for them to make an informed decision.

And as for the latter guy, I think that can be me ;D

Good, because my daughter is OFF THE TABLE =P
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 05:09:47 PM
I can't let you sneak that one by... this is not obvious or generally accepted and I doubt it's true. Even in his best year defensively, which was last year, opposing 4's had a 15 PER against him and centers murdered him. The Warriors were only sliiiightly better on defense with him on the floor, which is even fainter praise considering that he was usually subbing in for a man that many consider the worst defensive PF in basketball.

WOAH... where did that come from? Who are these "many" you're referring to? You might want to take a look at my above post. And if Nick is around he'll back me up that Landry plays solid defense.

You don't realize that many people consider David Lee to be the worst defensive PF in basketball?

Oh, I read that wrong. I thought the bolded part was referring to Landry.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 12, 2013, 05:11:11 PM
I consider Landry to be slightly below average defender.  He can hold his own in certain matchups, others not so much.  His 15 PER against, while average, is mostly against bench players (1.9 DWS isn't all that special for a PF either).  I suspect he'd fare far worse if facing starters for long periods of time.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 05:12:58 PM
Yeah Landry isn't a good defender.

Wanna go into more detail there? Maybe tell me why you aren't high on Lawson and Horford too? Why Horford can't anchor the defense for the few minutes KG is out? Why Wallace can't take advantage of Bradley/Monta when he (statistically) did with Nate Rob?

I appreciate everyone's opinion, but I'd like to see some actual backing up of opinions.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: dark_lord on September 12, 2013, 05:14:22 PM
simple question for the cavs......who do you think are your scorers for this series? 

(am going to look through the thread to see if this has been answered)
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 05:15:55 PM
simple question for the cavs......who do you think are your scorers for this series? 

(am going to look through the thread to see if this has been answered)

Same scorers as always... Lawson, Crawford, and Horford leading the way with Landry, Garnett, Butler, and maybe even Wallace chipping in around 10 apiece. If Lawson gets covered by LeBron, then the others will have opportunities to step up (especially Wallace and Butler if they're covered by a small guard like Bradley or Monta).
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: McHales Pits on September 12, 2013, 05:16:06 PM
Starting Lineup for Finals

1 - Ellis
2 - Bradley
3 - James
4 - Ibaka
5 - Jordan

In this series with Cleveland having slight framed big men, expect a lot of James-Ibaka at the 4 & 5 spots which allow Korver, Battier, & Chalmers to sub in regularly.

Ask any and all questions regarding Minnesota's offense/defense, Cleveland's offense/defense, or strategy related questions.

Thanks-

McHP
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 12, 2013, 05:21:49 PM
Yeah Landry isn't a good defender.

Wanna go into more detail there? Maybe tell me why you aren't high on Lawson and Horford too? Why Horford can't anchor the defense for the few minutes KG is out? Why Wallace can't take advantage of Bradley/Monta when he (statistically) did with Nate Rob?

I appreciate everyone's opinion, but I'd like to see some actual backing up of opinions.
Carl Landry has below average length and quickness at the PF position (at least defensively). His so-so defensive instincts that leads to mediocre overall defensive ability. Offensive backup PF.

I'm not high on Lawson as the best player on a title team because:

1. Defensively he's a liability
2. He's up and down offensively with his decision making

He's a devastating speed threat who is an explosive scorer. But as a PG I don't think he's in a high enough class to make up for his D.

Al Horford puzzles me, I think he should be better than he is. He's efficient but unremarkable offensively. Doesn't create a ton of easy looks for himself and others much of the time. He can be too passive on that end as well, isn't a lead the team type scorer.

Defensively he's solid but not an anchor, doesn't protect the rim all that well or disrupt sets often enough.

He's also playing out of position for his entire career too so he's hard to judge. I just don' think they can be the 1/2 on a title team.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 12, 2013, 05:36:06 PM
Yeah Landry isn't a good defender.

Wanna go into more detail there? Maybe tell me why you aren't high on Lawson and Horford too? Why Horford can't anchor the defense for the few minutes KG is out? Why Wallace can't take advantage of Bradley/Monta when he (statistically) did with Nate Rob?

I appreciate everyone's opinion, but I'd like to see some actual backing up of opinions.
Carl Landry has below average length and quickness at the PF position (at least defensively). His so-so defensive instincts that leads to mediocre overall defensive ability. Offensive backup PF.

I'm not high on Lawson as the best player on a title team because:

1. Defensively he's a liability
2. He's up and down offensively with his decision making

He's a devastating speed threat who is an explosive scorer. But as a PG I don't think he's in a high enough class to make up for his D.

Al Horford puzzles me, I think he should be better than he is. He's efficient but unremarkable offensively. Doesn't create a ton of easy looks for himself and others much of the time. He can be too passive on that end as well, isn't a lead the team type scorer.

Defensively he's solid but not an anchor, doesn't protect the rim all that well or disrupt sets often enough.

He's also playing out of position for his entire career too so he's hard to judge. I just don' think they can be the 1/2 on a title team.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on Landry. I see his combination of quickness and strength as an asset defensively. To be clear: I'm not claiming he's elite defensively, I'm claiming that he's not a liability and helps a little. And one thing we can all agree on is he's one of the best offensive backup PFs in the league.

Lawson cannot be the sole best player on a title team, but when surrounded by the pieces that Cleveland has, he can be the leading scorer on a title team. Lawson may be streaky in terms of scoring, but he's still crazy efficient, and he doesn't turn the ball over much either. We knew that Lawson's defense was suspect, so who did we take at SG? One of the best wing defenders in the league. This will more than offset Lawson's defensive deficiencies.

Horford is unremarkable because he plays next to a player that steals the spotlight. You do not need to be remarkable to help your team win, and Horford certainly helps us win, and can be the best player on our team if the fit is there at the other spots. 17, 10 and 3 while shooting over 50% and earning nearly 9 win shares is pretty impressive. And don't you think he's good enough to hold down a defense for 13 minutes per game when KG rests? I do.



Everyone is focusing a little too much on the individual parts, rather than the sum of those parts.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 12, 2013, 06:12:02 PM
Starting Lineup for Finals

1 - Ellis
2 - Bradley
3 - James
4 - Ibaka
5 - Jordan

In this series with Cleveland having slight framed big men, expect a lot of James-Ibaka at the 4 & 5 spots which allow Korver, Battier, & Chalmers to sub in regularly.

Ask any and all questions regarding Minnesota's offense/defense, Cleveland's offense/defense, or strategy related questions.

Thanks-

McHP

McHP,

Can you talk a little bit about any adjustments to the Minnesota offense if Tony Allen takes away Monta Ellis' ability to slash his way into the paint?
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 12, 2013, 06:48:05 PM
Not to speak for McHP, but I'd likely use a lineup of Ibaka/James/Battier/Korver/Chalmers more often than not.  Maybe sub Jordan for Ibaka if he struggles to guard either of the Cavs bigs. 

That seems to be the lineup that would put the most strain on the Cavs to defend, while not really allowing them to keep their best defenders on the court, if they hope to keep up with the scoring ability of that lineup. 
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: nickagneta on September 12, 2013, 07:16:04 PM
Not to speak for McHP, but I'd likely use a lineup of Ibaka/James/Battier/Korver/Chalmers more often than not.  Maybe sub Jordan for Ibaka if he struggles to guard either of the Cavs bigs. 

That seems to be the lineup that would put the most strain on the Cavs to defend, while not really allowing them to keep their best defenders on the court, if they hope to keep up with the scoring ability of that lineup.
I think Cleveland counters that going big. Yes, Lebron will get his in that lineup nut if he is cold or isn't involving others, or the others aren't hitting, Cleveland will clean up on the boards and dominate the offensive boards and the interior when they play offensively
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Kane3387 on September 12, 2013, 07:37:13 PM
I simply see too much Lebron in this series. Sounds like a cop out but it's not. I thought the last two teams minny faced should've beat them regardless of ownership.

When minny goes small i don't think Cleveland has the size to make them pay. Kg and horford aren't really any bigger then Ibaka and James. And they're a whole lot less athletic,

Minny has a versatility advantage here. If Bradley can limit rose or rondo then he can limit Lawson.

Minny wins the title IMO.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: nickagneta on September 12, 2013, 09:19:11 PM
My view on this is that both teams are amongst the best defensive teams in this game. So therefore, I see a lot of low scoring affairs.

But if that's the case, obviously Lebron is going to get his but who else on an offensively challenged Timberwolves squad is going to get any more? I think the Cavs have enough more offensive versatility than the Wolves. The Cavs can get 15 points a night from 5 different guys(Lawson, KG, Landry, Horford, Crawford) and maybe more from some, whereas the TWolves have Lebron and Ellis if he is chucking that will score against this tough Cavs defense.

I just feel the balanced scoring, as good if not better defense and the very obvious dominance of the boards makes Cleveland the team to beat.

Defense and rebounding, especially if you can have balanced scoring and the opposition has to shut down a whole team and not just one or possibly two guys.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 12, 2013, 09:58:05 PM
My view on this is that both teams are amongst the best defensive teams in this game. So therefore, I see a lot of low scoring affairs.

But if that's the case, obviously Lebron is going to get his but who else on an offensively challenged Timberwolves squad is going to get any more? I think the Cavs have enough more offensive versatility than the Wolves. The Cavs can get 15 points a night from 5 different guys(Lawson, KG, Landry, Horford, Crawford) and maybe more from some, whereas the TWolves have Lebron and Ellis if he is chucking that will score against this tough Cavs defense.

I just feel the balanced scoring, as good if not better defense and the very obvious dominance of the boards makes Cleveland the team to beat.

Defense and rebounding, especially if you can have balanced scoring and the opposition has to shut down a whole team and not just one or possibly two guys.

This is pretty much how I see things, too.

But, what do the Commish and the two-time champ know? ;)
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 12, 2013, 11:13:47 PM
My view on this is that both teams are amongst the best defensive teams in this game. So therefore, I see a lot of low scoring affairs.

But if that's the case, obviously Lebron is going to get his but who else on an offensively challenged Timberwolves squad is going to get any more? I think the Cavs have enough more offensive versatility than the Wolves. The Cavs can get 15 points a night from 5 different guys(Lawson, KG, Landry, Horford, Crawford) and maybe more from some, whereas the TWolves have Lebron and Ellis if he is chucking that will score against this tough Cavs defense.

I just feel the balanced scoring, as good if not better defense and the very obvious dominance of the boards makes Cleveland the team to beat.

Defense and rebounding, especially if you can have balanced scoring and the opposition has to shut down a whole team and not just one or possibly two guys.

This is pretty much how I see things, too.

But, what do the Commish and the two-time champ know? ;)

Reminds me of:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siRWRFWLtCs&sns=em
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: fairweatherfan on September 12, 2013, 11:46:38 PM
Does voting end tonight? 
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 12, 2013, 11:48:27 PM
Does voting end tonight?

I think so.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 12, 2013, 11:50:28 PM
Voting open for two days, no?

Polls open at 12 noon EST Sept. 12th. Close 11:59:59PM  Sept. 13th. PM all votes to me and just provide me your 2013 CB Draft winning team.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 12, 2013, 11:53:13 PM
Voting open for two days, no?

Polls open at 12 noon EST Sept. 12th. Close 11:59:59PM  Sept. 13th. PM all votes to me and just provide me your 2013 CB Draft winning team.

Indeed, my mistake. Good, I hadn't felt great about my vote.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 13, 2013, 12:03:32 AM
LeBron James is a career 43.2% shooter against the Clippers. Someone explain that to me.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: fairweatherfan on September 13, 2013, 12:41:09 AM
LeBron James is a career 43.2% shooter against the Clippers. Someone explain that to me.

Being in LA plus frequent Lakers/Clippers two-game stands?  Could be a lot of letdown games in that mix.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 13, 2013, 12:46:04 AM
LeBron James is a career 43.2% shooter against the Clippers. Someone explain that to me.

Being in LA plus frequent Lakers/Clippers two-game stands?  Could be a lot of letdown games in that mix.

Yeah, that seems the most likely. I keep trying to find a series of games where Lebron has played poorly despite no elite defender getting in his way, and I can't find any.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: fitzhickey on September 13, 2013, 06:11:48 AM
My view on this is that both teams are amongst the best defensive teams in this game. So therefore, I see a lot of low scoring affairs.

But if that's the case, obviously Lebron is going to get his but who else on an offensively challenged Timberwolves squad is going to get any more? I think the Cavs have enough more offensive versatility than the Wolves. The Cavs can get 15 points a night from 5 different guys(Lawson, KG, Landry, Horford, Crawford) and maybe more from some, whereas the TWolves have Lebron and Ellis if he is chucking that will score against this tough Cavs defense.

I just feel the balanced scoring, as good if not better defense and the very obvious dominance of the boards makes Cleveland the team to beat.

Defense and rebounding, especially if you can have balanced scoring and the opposition has to shut down a whole team and not just one or possibly two guys.
Ditto
You read my mind
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: bfrombleacher on September 13, 2013, 06:27:18 AM
I'm not the first to notice KG in Cleveland and LeBron in Minny, right?
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 13, 2013, 08:27:54 AM
LeBron James is a career 43.2% shooter against the Clippers. Someone explain that to me.

Being in LA plus frequent Lakers/Clippers two-game stands?  Could be a lot of letdown games in that mix.

Yeah, that seems the most likely. I keep trying to find a series of games where Lebron has played poorly despite no elite defender getting in his way, and I can't find any.

In this series, though, there will be three elite defenders in his way (Wallace, Allen, KG).
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 13, 2013, 09:52:16 AM
This argument seems about dead, but I have another question (even though my others have been unanswered):

Could any player, even one as good as Lebron, overcome these 2013 playoff performances from the other four starters?

2012-13 playoffs:

DeAndre Jordan:  3.7 points, 6.3 rebounds, .424 TS% (!!!)
Serge Ibaka: 12.8 points, 8.4 rebounds, .484 TS%
Avery Bradley:  6.7 points, 2.2 rebounds, 1.3 assists, 1.8 turnovers, .457 TS%
Monta Ellis:  14.3 points, 3.3 rebounds, 5.5 assists, 3.5 turnovers, .459 TS%

It's the lack of efficiency that blows my mind.  A true shooting percentage below .500 is considered to be very, very bad.  Here, all four of the Minnesota starters shot below that number in the most recent playoffs.

Or, if you prefer have everything laid out for you in one number:

Playoff PER:

Ellis: 12.3
Ibaka: 17.1
Jordan: 7.3
Bradley: 6.7

The average PER is 15.0, which includes all players in the NBA.  Presumably, the PER of a starter would be in most cases higher than that average, since starters should have higher averages than end of bench players.  Regardless, only Ibaka rates out as above average, due primarily to his blocked shots.  Ellis, and especially Jordan and Bradley, are well-below average.

Lebron was fantastic in last year's playoffs, but even he can't overcome horrific performances like the above.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: sofutomygaha on September 13, 2013, 09:58:57 AM
This argument seems about dead, but I have another question (even though my others have been unanswered):

Could any player, even one as good as Lebron, overcome these 2013 playoff performances from the other four starters?

2012-13 playoffs:

DeAndre Jordan:  3.7 points, 6.3 rebounds, .424 TS% (!!!)
Serge Ibaka: 12.8 points, 8.4 rebounds, .484 TS%
Avery Bradley:  6.7 points, 2.2 rebounds, 1.3 assists, 1.8 turnovers, .457 TS%
Monta Ellis:  14.3 points, 3.3 rebounds, 5.5 assists, 3.5 turnovers, .459 TS%

It's the lack of efficiency that blows my mind.  A true shooting percentage below .500 is considered to be very, very bad.  Here, all four of the Minnesota starters shot below that number in the most recent playoffs.

Or, if you prefer have everything laid out for you in one number:

Playoff PER:

Ellis: 12.3
Ibaka: 17.1
Jordan: 7.3
Bradley: 6.7

The average PER is 15.0, which includes all players in the NBA.  Presumably, the PER of a starter would be in most cases higher than that average, since starters should have higher averages than end of bench players.  Regardless, only Ibaka rates out as above average, due primarily to his blocked shots.  Ellis, and especially Jordan and Bradley, are well-below average.

Lebron was fantastic in last year's playoffs, but even he can't overcome horrific performances like the above.

that's an excellent post, right there
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: fairweatherfan on September 13, 2013, 10:19:38 AM
Playoff PER:

Ellis: 12.3
Ibaka: 17.1
Jordan: 7.3
Bradley: 6.7

The average PER is 15.0, which includes all players in the NBA.  Presumably, the PER of a starter would be in most cases higher than that average, since starters should have higher averages than end of bench players.  Regardless, only Ibaka rates out as above average, due primarily to his blocked shots.  Ellis, and especially Jordan and Bradley, are well-below average.

Lebron was fantastic in last year's playoffs, but even he can't overcome horrific performances like the above.

Interesting numbers.  Sounds like he should consider starting Big Baby, who had an 18.8 PER in his last playoff trip.   ;)
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 13, 2013, 10:26:16 AM
Playoff PER:

Ellis: 12.3
Ibaka: 17.1
Jordan: 7.3
Bradley: 6.7

The average PER is 15.0, which includes all players in the NBA.  Presumably, the PER of a starter would be in most cases higher than that average, since starters should have higher averages than end of bench players.  Regardless, only Ibaka rates out as above average, due primarily to his blocked shots.  Ellis, and especially Jordan and Bradley, are well-below average.

Lebron was fantastic in last year's playoffs, but even he can't overcome horrific performances like the above.

Interesting numbers.  Sounds like he should consider starting Big Baby, who had an 18.8 PER in his last playoff trip.   ;)

FWF:  raising Roy H.'s blood pressure since 2008.

(I'd note BBD had a .481 TS% despite the respectable PER, but I'm assuming your post was in jest.)
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 13, 2013, 11:20:41 AM
I hope everyone pays attention to the numbers Roy posted. As scary good as LeBron James is, basketball is a team sport and LeBron is by himself on this Minnesota team in these finals.

And as always, I'm here to answer your questions.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 13, 2013, 11:35:48 AM
Here's the problem I have with this series:

One team is relying on a 38 year old Kevin Garnett to be its lynchpin to victory, while the other team is relying on Serge Ibaka to be its second best player, and Monta Ellis to be a consistent scorer.

I don't think any one of those three things are possible.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 13, 2013, 11:39:41 AM
Any time there's a Lebron team in these CB Drafts, the team inevitably gets compared to Lebron's Cavaliers teams.

Well, for comparison sake, in 2010 only four of Lebron's teammates posted a TS% below .500, and those players played very, very few minutes (about 2.5 minutes per game each).

Here, almost every rotation player on Minnesota posted a TS% of below .500 in their most recent playoffs.  Ellis, Ibaka, Bradley, Jordan, BBD, Battier.  Even the guys with decent efficiency, like Korver and Chalmers, shot low percentages from the field (38.8% and 41.5%, respectively).  That's going to lead to a lot of rebounds for the Cavaliers.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 13, 2013, 11:40:23 AM
Here's the problem I have with this series:

One team is relying on a 38 year old Kevin Garnett to be its lynchpin to victory, while the other team is relying on Serge Ibaka to be its second best player, and Monta Ellis to be a consistent scorer.

I don't think any one of those three things are possible.
Of these two I place the Ibaka thing as the more likely one. After all we've seen LeBron with limited supported casts be a true contender. (Cleveland)

Al Horford with a similar level supporting cast with the Hawks has been trounced in the early playoffs repeatedly and its been ugly.

But as IP says, neither scenario seems all that likely to me.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 13, 2013, 11:40:41 AM
Here's the problem I have with this series:

One team is relying on a 38 year old Kevin Garnett to be its lynchpin to victory, while the other team is relying on Serge Ibaka to be its second best player, and Monta Ellis to be a consistent scorer.

I don't think any one of those three things are possible.

I'm surprised that many voters seem to be low on Horford and Lawson. 

I'm also surprised to see many voters who usually are pretty savvy when it comes to analytics and efficiency turn their back on those numbers in favor of the Lebron win button.

(http://www.ourhonordefend.com/wp-content/uploads/staples-easy-button.jpg)
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 13, 2013, 11:52:11 AM
The efficiency numbers for Cleveland's starters in their most recent playoffs:

Horford: .560 TS%
Garnett: .563 TS%
Wallace: .554 TS%
Allen:   .512 TS%
Lawson:  .549 TS%

Again, contrast that with Minnesota:

Jorday:  .424 TS% (again, !!!)
Ibaka: .484 TS%
Lebron: .585 TS%
Ellis:  .459 TS%
Bradley: .457 TS%

Lebron is the best player in the series.  His supporting cast is beyond terrible, though.  Lebron isn't Hercules; he's not winning jack unless his teammates contribute.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 13, 2013, 11:54:28 AM
Here's the problem I have with this series:

One team is relying on a 38 year old Kevin Garnett to be its lynchpin to victory, while the other team is relying on Serge Ibaka to be its second best player, and Monta Ellis to be a consistent scorer.

I don't think any one of those three things are possible.
Of these two I place the Ibaka thing as the more likely one. After all we've seen LeBron with limited supported casts be a true contender. (Cleveland)

Al Horford with a similar level supporting cast with the Hawks has been trounced in the early playoffs repeatedly and its been ugly.

But as IP says, neither scenario seems all that likely to me.

But have we seen LeBron with limited supporting casts win?

I think I've already explained why Horford's supporting cast is better with these Cavs than with any Hawks team.

And as for these scenarios you guys are discussing... I've heard some people say that neither team seems like a "championship" team. But I'd ask you to remember how much parity there was in this league, and how that didn't allow for the building of super-teams.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 13, 2013, 11:57:05 AM
The efficiency numbers for Cleveland's starters in their most recent playoffs:

Horford: .560 TS%
Garnett: .563 TS%
Wallace: .554 TS%
Allen:   .512 TS%
Lawson:  .549 TS%

Again, contrast that with Minnesota:

Jorday:  .424 TS% (again, !!!)
Ibaka: .484 TS%
Lebron: .585 TS%
Ellis:  .459 TS%
Bradley: .457 TS%

Lebron is the best player in the series.  His supporting cast is beyond terrible, though.  Lebron isn't Hercules; he's not winning jack unless his teammates contribute.

Don't forget Landry either, who posted a .578 TS%. And let's have a peek at PER in last year's playoffs...

Garnett 17.3 PER
Horford 19.1 PER
Lawson 20.4 PER
Landry 21.3 PER
T.Allen 17.7 PER
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 13, 2013, 11:58:55 AM
The efficiency numbers for Cleveland's starters in their most recent playoffs:

Horford: .560 TS%
Garnett: .563 TS%
Wallace: .554 TS%
Allen:   .512 TS%
Lawson:  .549 TS%

Again, contrast that with Minnesota:

Jorday:  .424 TS% (again, !!!)
Ibaka: .484 TS%
Lebron: .585 TS%
Ellis:  .459 TS%
Bradley: .457 TS%

Lebron is the best player in the series.  His supporting cast is beyond terrible, though.  Lebron isn't Hercules; he's not winning jack unless his teammates contribute.

Don't forget Landry either, who posted a .578 TS%. And let's have a peek at PER in last year's playoffs...

Garnett 17.3 PER
Horford 19.1 PER
Lawson 20.4 PER
Landry 21.3 PER
T.Allen 17.7 PER

Well there you go.

My first impression was that Cleveland would win.  Actually digging into the numbers, I think that Cleveland would win fairly easily.  I'm subject to a little bit of Lebron bias myself, but he can't do it alone.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Who on September 13, 2013, 12:10:24 PM
LeBron + Ibaka + Monta > Horford + Garnett + Ty Lawson

Which team's core would you prefer on your team next season and for next season alone? Which gives you the greater chance at winning? If you could have either trio here in Boston who do you choose?

For me, it is definitely LeBron and friends. As weak as LeBron's supporting stars are, for my money Minnesota's three man core is still superior to Cleveland's.

It's true, Minnesota are not a great team. But neither is Cleveland.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 13, 2013, 12:10:50 PM
I get that it supports the case of your side, but using deliberately small samples (playoffs) is a poor way to evaluate players when you have so much more information.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Who on September 13, 2013, 12:11:25 PM
I am not convinced Cleveland's size can punish Minnesota down in the paint when Minnesota goes small.

When Minnesota goes small and spreads out the floor enabling LeBron and Monta to get to the rim, I am not convinced Cleveland has the rim protection to deny them.

That for me is the series.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 13, 2013, 12:14:33 PM
I get that it supports the case of your side, but using deliberately small samples (playoffs) is a poor way to evaluate players when you have so much more information.

I disagree strongly.  The playoffs are a different brand of basketball, where you're generally facing better defenses, the pressure is higher, etc.

I think that ignoring playoff stats is intentionally leaving out a very important piece of the overall puzzle.

I mean, is it a coincidence that Monta Ellis has only been to the playoffs twice, and he stunk it up both times?  What about DeAndre Jordan, who has looked terrible both times he's been to the playoffs?  What about Avery Bradley, who has looked overmatched both times he's been the playoffs?

If a guy consistently struggles in the playoffs, I think it's fair to predict that they'll probably continue to struggle there. 
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 13, 2013, 12:17:09 PM
LeBron + Ibaka + Monta > Horford + Garnett + Ty Lawson

Which team's core would you prefer on your team next season and for next season alone? Which gives you the greater chance at winning? If you could have either trio here in Boston who do you choose?

For me, it is definitely LeBron and friends. As weak as LeBron's supporting stars are, for my money Minnesota's three man core is still superior to Cleveland's.

It's true, Minnesota are not a great team. But neither is Cleveland.

If you're rebuilding / adding to your team, you're always going to want Lebron.

However, when assessing series, you don't just look at which team has the top player, or even the top trio.  If you did that in the real NBA, Lebron would have won since about 2006.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 13, 2013, 12:20:31 PM
Here's the problem I have with this series:

One team is relying on a 38 year old Kevin Garnett to be its lynchpin to victory, while the other team is relying on Serge Ibaka to be its second best player, and Monta Ellis to be a consistent scorer.

I don't think any one of those three things are possible.

I'm surprised that many voters seem to be low on Horford and Lawson. 

I'm also surprised to see many voters who usually are pretty savvy when it comes to analytics and efficiency turn their back on those numbers in favor of the Lebron win button.

(http://www.ourhonordefend.com/wp-content/uploads/staples-easy-button.jpg)

First of all, if irony were made of strawberries, we'd all be drinking a lot of smoothies right now.

Secondly, I want to know if the, "usually you guys are super smart when it comes to this stuff. I'm just really surprised you're so dumb about it right now" argumentative tactic is a winner. It's complisult, and a fine one.

Thirdly, what's the better bet: Betting on Lebron to pull a uninspired cast of misfits and ne'er-do-wells kicking and screaming through their ceiling and out the other side, or a cast of second-tier stars coming together through a grueling playoff run and coming out as improbable winners against the best basketball player on the planet?

Cuz I mean, I really, really don't like the Minnesota team. But at the same time I don't think the Cleveland team is all that great. I guess I have an easier time thinking that the defense from KG and Horford and heroic efforts from Ty Lawson (career 56% shooter against Bradley, with some big games where both guys played big minutes), and average production from Horford/Garnett offensively..I dunno.

Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 13, 2013, 12:23:10 PM
I disagree with you on that Roy. Most players playoff numbers are pretty well in line with their overall regular season numbers, with a moderate decline commensurate with the tougher brand of defensive played.

But its a very small sample size, so what you get are wild variations that go with that decline. Assigning meaning to those fluctuations is the worse misuse of statistics.

Is Tony really a 17.7 PER playoff guy? If so why wasn't he in the past playoffs? Has his game changed that much?

Or did he just have a good shooting 15 games along with an outstanding rebounding 15 games (12.9 from a SG!) Meanwhile in past playoffs you can see he's more in line with his career, and so are his overall playoff numbers.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 13, 2013, 12:28:52 PM
Here's the problem I have with this series:

One team is relying on a 38 year old Kevin Garnett to be its lynchpin to victory, while the other team is relying on Serge Ibaka to be its second best player, and Monta Ellis to be a consistent scorer.

I don't think any one of those three things are possible.

I'm surprised that many voters seem to be low on Horford and Lawson. 

I'm also surprised to see many voters who usually are pretty savvy when it comes to analytics and efficiency turn their back on those numbers in favor of the Lebron win button.

(http://www.ourhonordefend.com/wp-content/uploads/staples-easy-button.jpg)

First of all, if irony were made of strawberries, we'd all be drinking a lot of smoothies right now.

Secondly, I want to know if the, "usually you guys are super smart when it comes to this stuff. I'm just really surprised you're so dumb about it right now" argumentative tactic is a winner. It's complisult, and a fine one.

Thirdly, what's the better bet: Betting on Lebron to pull a uninspired cast of misfits and ne'er-do-wells kicking and screaming through their ceiling and out the other side, or a cast of second-tier stars coming together through a grueling playoff run and coming out as improbable winners against the best basketball player on the planet?

Cuz I mean, I really, really don't like the Minnesota team. But at the same time I don't think the Cleveland team is all that great. I guess I have an easier time thinking that the defense from KG and Horford and heroic efforts from Ty Lawson (career 56% shooter against Bradley, with some big games where both guys played big minutes), and average production from Horford/Garnett offensively..I dunno.

I'll say the same thing I argued last year:  it's always disappointing to see any voter cast a ballot based only on surface arguments.

I think the idea that Lebron can, by himself, carry a bunch of below-average players with *terrible* efficiency to a title is silly.  It has ZERO basis in reality.  None, at all.  Both in real life and the CB Draft, to win Lebron has needed to have good players around him. 

But, the problem with the CB Draft in general is that many people are busy, and don't have the time to read the various arguments, or to spend a lot of time thinking about it.  They're going to vote based upon conventional wisdom, or their own preconceived biases.

So, what you get is the Win Button.  It's a credit to you last year that you constructed a team that was good enough to go down to the wire with a Lebron squad that had another star player, a very good defense, and a very efficient offense.  Most years from now on, that will never happen, because people just assume "Lebron = win".  Even when Lebron's top five teammates all have a TS% below .485.

As for the "you're too stupid" argument, it probably comes across like that.  It's genuine disappointment.  I see bright, informed voters use analytics every day in these forums, and many of them are slaves to efficiency (in a good way).  When we get to the CB Draft, though, that sometimes goes out the window.  It's kind of a stomach punch seeing stuff like that, because I expect more.  At the very least, give some vigorous, reasoned debate, you know?  So, I apologize if it comes across as insulting, but I don't really retract it.  A lot of the arguments that have been advanced this week to justify votes have been ultra-weak.  I guess that's better than those who vote without commenting, but I guess I expect more.  (And for the record, that doesn't include everyone who disagrees with me.  Several voters have spent a ton of time explaining their reasoning.)
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 13, 2013, 12:29:33 PM
Secondly, I want to know if the, "usually you guys are super smart when it comes to this stuff. I'm just really surprised you're so dumb about it right now" argumentative tactic is a winner. It's complisult, and a fine one.
I think this is very well said. This has been a kinder draft, but this has been thrown around too much.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 13, 2013, 12:31:09 PM
I disagree with you on that Roy. Most players playoff numbers are pretty well in line with their overall regular season numbers, with a moderate decline commensurate with the tougher brand of defensive played.

But its a very small sample size, so what you get are wild variations that go with that decline. Assigning meaning to those fluctuations is the worse misuse of statistics.

Is Tony really a 17.7 PER playoff guy? If so why wasn't he in the past playoffs? Has his game changed that much?

Or did he just have a good shooting 15 games along with an outstanding rebounding 15 games (12.9 from a SG!) Meanwhile in past playoffs you can see he's more in line with his career, and so are his overall playoff numbers.

Take regular season numbers, then.  Do you think any lineup that features DeAndre Jordan, Avery Bradley, and Monta Ellis would be successful, especially in high pressure situations?
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 13, 2013, 12:47:09 PM
I think the idea that Lebron can, by himself, carry a bunch of below-average players with *terrible* efficiency to a title is silly.  It has ZERO basis in reality.  None, at all.  Both in real life and the CB Draft, to win Lebron has needed to have good players around him.

But, the problem with the CB Draft in general is that many people are busy, and don't have the time to read the various arguments, or to spend a lot of time thinking about it.  They're going to vote based upon conventional wisdom, or their own preconceived biases.

So, what you get is the Win Button.  It's a credit to you last year that you constructed a team that was good enough to go down to the wire with a Lebron squad that had another star player, a very good defense, and a very efficient offense.  Most years from now on, that will never happen, because people just assume "Lebron = win".  Even when Lebron's top five teammates all have a TS% below .485.

Okay, but what you're arguing here (with this comment) is that Minny's team isn't good enough to win a title, but not necessarily that Minny's team isn't good enough to win a series against this Cleveland team, and that's the exact case I find myself in.

I actually wonder how close the voting would really be if this were a first round or second round matchup. I kind of think Minny would skate fairly easily, because flat out, LeBron James doesn't lose in the first round. That's just history.

Quote
As for the "you're too stupid" argument, it probably comes across like that.  It's genuine disappointment.  I see bright, informed voters use analytics every day in these forums, and many of them are slaves to efficiency (in a good way).  When we get to the CB Draft, though, that sometimes goes out the window.  It's kind of a stomach punch seeing stuff like that, because I expect more.  At the very least, give some vigorous, reasoned debate, you know?  So, I apologize if it comes across as insulting, but I don't really retract it.  A lot of the arguments that have been advanced this week to justify votes have been ultra-weak.  I guess that's better than those who vote without commenting, but I guess I expect more.  (And for the record, that doesn't include everyone who disagrees with me.  Several voters have spent a ton of time explaining their reasoning.)

No I actually want to know if it works. I've seen you say it a few times now, and I'm curious as to if its worked out. I'll put it in my arsenal of ready to go rebuttals.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 13, 2013, 12:54:12 PM
No I actually want to know if it works. I've seen you say it a few times now, and I'm curious as to if its worked out. I'll put it in my arsenal of ready to go rebuttals.

I don't think it works.  I just keep hoping I get through to you.  You're like my CB Draft protegee, the guy who needs to carry the torch after I'm gone.  You've already got the drafting and marketing parts down.  Now, I need to pound into you the importance of mentally simulating these series to see how they'd turn out. 

Last year, you lost because you were soft in the middle.  This year, Minnesota should lose because their efficiency is terrible.  Those are core tenets of team construction.  Play good defense especially in the interior, rebound the ball, score efficiently.  Teams that suffer in one of those areas are vulnerable.  Here I like Cleveland better.  (I bet that if you ran each team through basketball-reference's "four factors" on offense and defense that Cleveland would come out ahead, Lebron or no Lebron.)

So, study up, young padawan.  I won't be here forever (in my $6,500 suit). ;)
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 13, 2013, 12:57:05 PM
This is another one of my ready to go rebuttals:

"I don't know how many Thunder games you watched, but I can say with confidence that Serge Ibaka cannot be the second best player on the floor and still have Minnesota walk away with the title here."

See what I did there?

But no seriously, major misgivings about Minnesota's roster. Not necessarily the talent level, but the demands on particular players. If only KG was 3 years younger, or Gerald Wallace less cooked than a pot roast on a Sunday, I'd buy Cleveland without qualms. At this point for me personally I'm just totally lacking in choice I feel like a clear winner. 
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: dark_lord on September 13, 2013, 01:16:49 PM
voting is unique and a personal thing to each voter, in any circumstance (politics, cb draft, etc.).  everyone is different in what they value, what they foresee, and how they interpret things.  being told a voter is wrong, uninformed, or anything else that is being implied is just wrong imo.  this is a hypothetical exercise where voting takes place.  no one's vote is more valued or more important than the next person.  if someone does not agree with someone's analysis, interprets things differently, or projects different outcomes....they aren't wrong, misinformed, a sheep, or anything else....they have a difference of opinion, plain and simple..
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: nickagneta on September 13, 2013, 01:31:18 PM
Minnesota rebounding based on Minnesota's posted lineups...top 5 forwards/centers playing

Lebron 8 rpg  13.1 TRB%
Ibaka  7.7 rpg  14.2 TRB%
Jordan 7.2 rPG  17.6 TRB
Davis  7.2 rpg  13.1 TRB%
Battier 2.3 rpg  5.7 TRB%

Cleveland rebounding based on Cleveland's posted lineups...top 5 forawrds/centers playing

Horford  10.2 rpg 15.7 TRB%
Garnett   7.8 rpg 15.5 TRB%
Landry    6.0 rpg 14.3 TRB%
Wallace   4.6 rpg 9.1 TRB%
Mozgov    2.6 rpg 16.4 TRB%

To the eye this looks fairly even but the difference is that come the most recent playoffs, everybody's numbers stayed about the same except for the old man's. KG's rebounding numbers went through the roof in his most recent playoffs(13.7 rpg 23.2 TRB%) and he has shown a history throughout his career of increasing his rpg and TRB% in the playoffs.

I think this would greatly favor Cleveland in the rebounding department as Minnesota's best rebounder will probably not be on the floor in 4th quarters and playing about just 24-25 MPG.

Given this rebounding advantage and about equal defenses it comes down to whether Minny can score efficiently and often enough to overcome a balaNced and efficient Cleveland offense. As Roy's TS% numbers show, that probably is not likely.

I think this is a close series but I see Cleveland in 6 really tight games. defense and reboundING and better shooting will win every time.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 13, 2013, 01:33:05 PM
Just voted....Timberwolves
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: fitzhickey on September 13, 2013, 01:36:07 PM
voted Cleveland
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: fairweatherfan on September 13, 2013, 01:37:04 PM
voting is unique and a personal thing to each voter, in any circumstance (politics, cb draft, etc.).  everyone is different in what they value, what they foresee, and how they interpret things.  being told a voter is wrong, uninformed, or anything else that is being implied is just wrong imo.  this is a hypothetical exercise where voting takes place.  no one's vote is more valued or more important than the next person.  if someone does not agree with someone's analysis, interprets things differently, or projects different outcomes....they aren't wrong, misinformed, a sheep, or anything else....they have a difference of opinion, plain and simple..

Agree fully.  Disrespecting and caricaturing the reasoning process or motivations of folks who vote differently is exactly the kind of crap that's kept me away from this exercise.  Presenting evidence or support is fine and often helpful, but ultimately everyone's decision-making is their own and should be respected.

That said, still don't know which way I'm gonna go.  Two talented but flawed teams.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: nickagneta on September 13, 2013, 01:39:57 PM
CAN WE GENERALLY PUT A STOP TO THE "YOU ARE ALL SMART SO WHY ARE YOU BEING SO _______, NOW" ARGUMENTS, COMMENTS AND SO FORTH. ENOUGH IS ENOUGH AND I EXPECT BETTER FROM THE PEOPLE DISCUSSING SUCH THINGS!!!
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 13, 2013, 01:48:32 PM
To change topics...

It seems like nearly all that can be said about this series has been said. Both teams are flawed but Minnesota is more flawed IMO. Some people disagree, and that's fine.

Regardless of the outcome, I am quite proud to have made it all the way to the finals after starting out with the 19th pick in the first round. That, and being able to talk basketball with some very smart fans out there (I'm talking to all of you guys) made this a very fun experience for me. I'll probably do this exercise again next year, and I wouldn't be doing it if it weren't for all of the GMs and other commenters who put a lot of time and thought into this draft. So thank you all.

And a special thank you to Nick who worked his butt off to make this happen.

/sappy post
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: nickagneta on September 13, 2013, 01:50:07 PM
I would really like to have seen more head to head debate between the GMs which we have seen in past Finals debates. Kind of disappointed in that
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: BleedGreen1989 on September 13, 2013, 01:56:38 PM
I'm voting for Drew Carey
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 13, 2013, 02:05:45 PM
Just for posterity's sake, here is my reasoning on why I voted for Minny.  In order to beat a LeBron led team, you need to be have one of two things.

A)  A squad that is overwhelmingly more skilled in many, if not all, other areas.

B)  A SF who is capable of making LeBron work for his points, and also capable of getting his own (to varying degrees).  Here's the short list of players I view as fitting the criteria.  Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Luol Deng, Paul Pierce, Kawhi Leonard.  If you don't have one of those players, you likely aren't winning.  Even then, it is still difficult if the rest of the team isn't also at least slightly better.

None of the teams Minny faced in the playoffs had one of those players, except for Portland, and I just didn't think Portland was good enough otherwise.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Kane3387 on September 13, 2013, 02:18:22 PM
In 2012 Lebron basically willed Miami to the title by himself. Bosh missed almost two entire series with the abdominal muscle. Wade was on one leg and at best was good for one half a game. The rest of his team was crud.

He dominated Boston single handedly in a must win game six that catapulted his team over Boston and OKC. He destroyed durant and single handedly pretty much beat Indiana. His run was amazing averaging easily over 30 and 10.

Be real he just beat a team with rondo Aldridge and hibbert. Then a team with Dwight and rose. With this supporting cast??? Only way minny is winning is bc of the Lebron button. A team whose big three consists of 38 yr old kg, undersized horford, and Ty Lawson is now going to slow down King James who has the taste for winning titles?!

Don't see it. Maybe if Gerald Wallace, Caron butler, and Jamal Crawford were all three years younger then yeah I'd go Cleveland. But they're not. They're on the downside.

No way Lebron is being denied in this series at this point in his career in his prime.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Who on September 13, 2013, 02:48:40 PM
Just for posterity's sake, here is my reasoning on why I voted for Minny.  In order to beat a LeBron led team, you need to be have one of two things.
That is a good topic.

For me, I thought Minnesota had a very effective small ball lineup that would have been very difficult to beat ... but I also thought that their big lineup (two big men), while hugely effective defensively, was badly balanced offensively and would struggle to provide enough floor spacing and complementary scoring around LeBron to win at the highest level. So from the start, I viewed the best way to beat Minnesota was by forcing them to stay big.

And I thought Golden State (R.Hibbert, L.Aldridge) would've been able to do that in the second round and that is why -- along with Rondo who was a player capable of dominating a playoff series from start to finish + a deep supporting cast -- I chose Golden State to beat Minnesota in the 2nd round.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 13, 2013, 02:57:06 PM
Just for posterity's sake, here is my reasoning on why I voted for Minny.  In order to beat a LeBron led team, you need to be have one of two things.

A)  A squad that is overwhelmingly more skilled in many, if not all, other areas.

B)  A SF who is capable of making LeBron work for his points, and also capable of getting his own (to varying degrees).  Here's the short list of players I view as fitting the criteria.  Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Luol Deng, Paul Pierce, Kawhi Leonard.  If you don't have one of those players, you likely aren't winning.  Even then, it is still difficult if the rest of the team isn't also at least slightly better.

None of the teams Minny faced in the playoffs had one of those players, except for Portland, and I just didn't think Portland was good enough otherwise.

Where does Shawn Marion fit into this analysis?

Wallace is Cleveland's Marion. The rest of the roster compares favorably, as well
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 13, 2013, 03:18:44 PM
Just for posterity's sake, here is my reasoning on why I voted for Minny.  In order to beat a LeBron led team, you need to be have one of two things.

A)  A squad that is overwhelmingly more skilled in many, if not all, other areas.

B)  A SF who is capable of making LeBron work for his points, and also capable of getting his own (to varying degrees).  Here's the short list of players I view as fitting the criteria.  Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Luol Deng, Paul Pierce, Kawhi Leonard.  If you don't have one of those players, you likely aren't winning.  Even then, it is still difficult if the rest of the team isn't also at least slightly better.

None of the teams Minny faced in the playoffs had one of those players, except for Portland, and I just didn't think Portland was good enough otherwise.

Where does Shawn Marion fit into this analysis?

Wallace is Cleveland's Marion. The rest of the roster compares favorably, as well

So Cleveland's playing Wallace big minutes?
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 13, 2013, 03:20:32 PM
Just for posterity's sake, here is my reasoning on why I voted for Minny.  In order to beat a LeBron led team, you need to be have one of two things.

A)  A squad that is overwhelmingly more skilled in many, if not all, other areas.

B)  A SF who is capable of making LeBron work for his points, and also capable of getting his own (to varying degrees).  Here's the short list of players I view as fitting the criteria.  Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Luol Deng, Paul Pierce, Kawhi Leonard.  If you don't have one of those players, you likely aren't winning.  Even then, it is still difficult if the rest of the team isn't also at least slightly better.

None of the teams Minny faced in the playoffs had one of those players, except for Portland, and I just didn't think Portland was good enough otherwise.

Where does Shawn Marion fit into this analysis?

Wallace is Cleveland's Marion. The rest of the roster compares favorably, as well

So Cleveland's playing Wallace big minutes?

Yes. And he performed well offensively in the playoffs last year.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 13, 2013, 03:21:32 PM
Just for posterity's sake, here is my reasoning on why I voted for Minny.  In order to beat a LeBron led team, you need to be have one of two things.

A)  A squad that is overwhelmingly more skilled in many, if not all, other areas.

B)  A SF who is capable of making LeBron work for his points, and also capable of getting his own (to varying degrees).  Here's the short list of players I view as fitting the criteria.  Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Luol Deng, Paul Pierce, Kawhi Leonard.  If you don't have one of those players, you likely aren't winning.  Even then, it is still difficult if the rest of the team isn't also at least slightly better.

None of the teams Minny faced in the playoffs had one of those players, except for Portland, and I just didn't think Portland was good enough otherwise.

Where does Shawn Marion fit into this analysis?

Wallace is Cleveland's Marion. The rest of the roster compares favorably, as well

So Cleveland's playing Wallace big minutes?

I believe AB said that one of either Tony Allen or Gerald Wallace will be guarding LeBron "at all times".
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 13, 2013, 03:39:51 PM
Just for posterity's sake, here is my reasoning on why I voted for Minny.  In order to beat a LeBron led team, you need to be have one of two things.

A)  A squad that is overwhelmingly more skilled in many, if not all, other areas.

B)  A SF who is capable of making LeBron work for his points, and also capable of getting his own (to varying degrees).  Here's the short list of players I view as fitting the criteria.  Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Luol Deng, Paul Pierce, Kawhi Leonard.  If you don't have one of those players, you likely aren't winning.  Even then, it is still difficult if the rest of the team isn't also at least slightly better.

None of the teams Minny faced in the playoffs had one of those players, except for Portland, and I just didn't think Portland was good enough otherwise.

Where does Shawn Marion fit into this analysis?

Wallace is Cleveland's Marion. The rest of the roster compares favorably, as well

So Cleveland's playing Wallace big minutes?

Yes. And he performed well offensively in the playoffs last year.

Well yeah for 7 games against an overachieving and injured Bulls team. That's hardly an endorsement for a Finals run, is it?
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Fafnir on September 13, 2013, 03:41:16 PM
Just for posterity's sake, here is my reasoning on why I voted for Minny.  In order to beat a LeBron led team, you need to be have one of two things.

A)  A squad that is overwhelmingly more skilled in many, if not all, other areas.

B)  A SF who is capable of making LeBron work for his points, and also capable of getting his own (to varying degrees).  Here's the short list of players I view as fitting the criteria.  Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Luol Deng, Paul Pierce, Kawhi Leonard.  If you don't have one of those players, you likely aren't winning.  Even then, it is still difficult if the rest of the team isn't also at least slightly better.

None of the teams Minny faced in the playoffs had one of those players, except for Portland, and I just didn't think Portland was good enough otherwise.

Where does Shawn Marion fit into this analysis?

Wallace is Cleveland's Marion. The rest of the roster compares favorably, as well

So Cleveland's playing Wallace big minutes?

Yes. And he performed well offensively in the playoffs last year.

Well yeah for 7 games against an overachieving and injured Bulls team. That's hardly an endorsement for a Finals run, is it?
Nate Robinson is tough to break down defensively, I mean Wallace only has 1 foot and 100 lbs. on him. What can you do.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 13, 2013, 03:49:10 PM
Just for posterity's sake, here is my reasoning on why I voted for Minny.  In order to beat a LeBron led team, you need to be have one of two things.

A)  A squad that is overwhelmingly more skilled in many, if not all, other areas.

B)  A SF who is capable of making LeBron work for his points, and also capable of getting his own (to varying degrees).  Here's the short list of players I view as fitting the criteria.  Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Luol Deng, Paul Pierce, Kawhi Leonard.  If you don't have one of those players, you likely aren't winning.  Even then, it is still difficult if the rest of the team isn't also at least slightly better.

None of the teams Minny faced in the playoffs had one of those players, except for Portland, and I just didn't think Portland was good enough otherwise.

Where does Shawn Marion fit into this analysis?

Wallace is Cleveland's Marion. The rest of the roster compares favorably, as well

Marion from a few years ago would have been on the "longer" list back then for me (as in, still needing an elite scorer next to him).  Today, I don't think I would put him there, it'd be rather borderline.  He'd need a vastly better roster in many other areas.

Wallace isn't even close to on that list.  Bit part on a team that just doesn't appear much better on the whole in the other aspects.

Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 13, 2013, 03:49:48 PM
Nate Robinson is tough to break down defensively, I mean Wallace only has 1 foot and 100 lbs. on him. What can you do.

Gerald Wallace didn't take advantage of Nate Robinson on him in the playoffs this year. I don't think he'll able to exploit Avery or Monta either.

Pick a side there, Faf ;)

Wallace will have the height and weight advantage on Monta and Bradley too, if LeBron does cover Lawson.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 13, 2013, 04:03:09 PM
Here's part of the reason LeBron needs to have legit counterpart.  If he is allowed to just cheat on defense and save energy, he is likely to be that much more likely to succeed on offense, as it leads to many steals and fast break points.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 13, 2013, 04:16:54 PM
Here's part of the reason LeBron needs to have legit counterpart.  If he is allowed to just cheat on defense and save energy, he is likely to be that much more likely to succeed on offense, as it leads to many steals and fast break points.

Again, that really wasn't the case against Dallas in 2010.

I guess the trouble I have with a lot of the arguments in the thread is that most of the reasoning has already been proven wrong. 

Argument:  Lebron can't lose unless he's got a small forward on him who can both score and play elite defense.

Reality:  Lebron lost in the 2010 Finals, despite playing against Shawn Marion.  He also lost against Hedo Turkuglu / Rashard Lewis.

Argument:  Lebron is unbeatable unless the other team clearly trumps him at all other positions.

Reality:  Lebron lost to Dallas despite having Wade and Bosh, and should have lost against San Antonio.  He's won two titles in ten years, and again, one of those titles had to be gifted to him, despite having two other all-stars.

Argument:  Lebron radically makes things easier on his teammates, amplifying their shooting percentages.

Reality:  There's very little amplifying effect, if any.  Lebron certainly isn't turning inefficient players into efficient ones.

Argument:  There's no such thing as a "wrong" opinion.

Reality:  (Biting my tongue.)
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 13, 2013, 04:28:11 PM
Just for posterity's sake, here is my reasoning on why I voted for Minny.  In order to beat a LeBron led team, you need to be have one of two things.

A)  A squad that is overwhelmingly more skilled in many, if not all, other areas.

B)  A SF who is capable of making LeBron work for his points, and also capable of getting his own (to varying degrees).  Here's the short list of players I view as fitting the criteria.  Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Luol Deng, Paul Pierce, Kawhi Leonard.  If you don't have one of those players, you likely aren't winning.  Even then, it is still difficult if the rest of the team isn't also at least slightly better.

None of the teams Minny faced in the playoffs had one of those players, except for Portland, and I just didn't think Portland was good enough otherwise.

Where does Shawn Marion fit into this analysis?

Wallace is Cleveland's Marion. The rest of the roster compares favorably, as well

Marion from a few years ago would have been on the "longer" list back then for me (as in, still needing an elite scorer next to him).  Today, I don't think I would put him there, it'd be rather borderline.  He'd need a vastly better roster in many other areas.

Wallace isn't even close to on that list.  Bit part on a team that just doesn't appear much better on the whole in the other aspects.

Is Paul George that good a defender? Surprised to see his name on that list, but then I see he was one of your guys.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 13, 2013, 04:31:08 PM

Argument:  There's no such thing as a "wrong" opinion.

Reality:  (Biting my tongue.)

Well, FWIW, I'm not too high on your opinion, TBH.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 13, 2013, 04:33:02 PM
Just for posterity's sake, here is my reasoning on why I voted for Minny.  In order to beat a LeBron led team, you need to be have one of two things.

A)  A squad that is overwhelmingly more skilled in many, if not all, other areas.

B)  A SF who is capable of making LeBron work for his points, and also capable of getting his own (to varying degrees).  Here's the short list of players I view as fitting the criteria.  Kevin Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Luol Deng, Paul Pierce, Kawhi Leonard.  If you don't have one of those players, you likely aren't winning.  Even then, it is still difficult if the rest of the team isn't also at least slightly better.

None of the teams Minny faced in the playoffs had one of those players, except for Portland, and I just didn't think Portland was good enough otherwise.

Where does Shawn Marion fit into this analysis?

Wallace is Cleveland's Marion. The rest of the roster compares favorably, as well

Marion from a few years ago would have been on the "longer" list back then for me (as in, still needing an elite scorer next to him).  Today, I don't think I would put him there, it'd be rather borderline.  He'd need a vastly better roster in many other areas.

Wallace isn't even close to on that list.  Bit part on a team that just doesn't appear much better on the whole in the other aspects.

Is Paul George that good a defender? Surprised to see his name on that list, but then I see he was one of your guys.

I had stated prior to the Cb draft I felt George was a top 10 player.  Agree or disagree, I'm consistent about that.  I made sure to let Atzar know this when he almost traded him away from his DKC Pacers.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 13, 2013, 04:36:56 PM

Argument:  There's no such thing as a "wrong" opinion.

Reality:  (Biting my tongue.)

Well, FWIW, I'm not too high on your opinion, TBH.

Glad to hear.  As I've said before, we can't all be right.  8)
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 13, 2013, 04:40:12 PM
So, for the other voters:  is the conventional wisdom that Lebron can't lose unless he's matched up against a great defensive small forward (like Hedo Turkuglu) who also plays great offense (like Shawn Marion)?

I'd like to hear some more about why Lebron is unbeatable.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 13, 2013, 04:46:21 PM
I would really like to have seen more head to head debate between the GMs which we have seen in past Finals debates. Kind of disappointed in that

Yeah.  MP basically posted his lineup, and has been absent.  One post in 14 pages.  It's a bummer.

I'm still waiting to hear how a team with four very inefficient playoff performers as starters is likely to win against *any* team, let alone a very good team like the Cavs.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 13, 2013, 04:49:47 PM
I would really like to have seen more head to head debate between the GMs which we have seen in past Finals debates. Kind of disappointed in that

Yeah.  MP basically posted his lineup, and has been absent.  One post in 14 pages.  It's a bummer.

I'm still waiting to hear how a team with four very inefficient playoff performers as starters is likely to win against *any* team, let alone a very good team like the Cavs.

You can add "auto-pilot switch" to "win button" for LeBron.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 13, 2013, 04:50:33 PM
Here's part of the reason LeBron needs to have legit counterpart.  If he is allowed to just cheat on defense and save energy, he is likely to be that much more likely to succeed on offense, as it leads to many steals and fast break points.

Again, that really wasn't the case against Dallas in 2010.

I guess the trouble I have with a lot of the arguments in the thread is that most of the reasoning has already been proven wrong. 

I think this is a good exercise, because I don't think these are really arguments that I'd make.

Quote
Argument:  Lebron can't lose unless he's got a small forward on him who can both score and play elite defense.

Reality:  Lebron lost in the 2010 Finals, despite playing against Shawn Marion.

For this argument my own points are different in two fundamental ways; 1) there should be an athletic long 3 who can make an effort at defending LeBron (and the weaker the defense from the 3 is, the stronger it needs to be up front), and 2) A larger point, there should be scorers, and there should be shooters, at least 3 3pt shooters in the lineup at all times with at least 4 guys who can hit a shot from 15 ft away from the basket, or more.

Gerald Wallace is not a defender on Marion's level now, let alone 3 years ago, and despite a spectacular 7 game run against Chicago, he's not a reliable shooter. So he's a decent option defensively, and a poor option offensively. Net negative for me.   

Quote
Argument:  Lebron is unbeatable unless the other team clearly trumps him at all other positions.

Reality:  Lebron lost to Dallas despite having Wade and Bosh, and should have lost against San Antonio.  He's won two titles in ten years, and again, one of those titles had to be gifted to him, despite having two other all-stars.

I don't wholly agree with this either, but I do think you need to have a much better overall team, and a very well constructed one, plus at least 2-3 star quality players, and possibly more depending on LeBron's supporting cast.

Quote
Argument:  Lebron radically makes things easier on his teammates, amplifying their shooting percentages.

Reality:  There's very little amplifying effect, if any.  Lebron certainly isn't turning inefficient players into efficient ones.

I think that LeBron does indeed make things easier on his teammates, but he's not a cure-all for poor efficiency by any means. I'm sympathetic to the 'well if anyone can help Monta Ellis its LeBron', but nobody can help Monta Ellis.

Quote
Argument:  There's no such thing as a "wrong" opinion.

Reality:  (Biting my tongue.)

I think any opinion can be valid as long as it acknowledges that mine is correct.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Who on September 13, 2013, 04:51:41 PM
Is Paul George that good a defender? Surprised to see his name on that list, but then I see he was one of your guys.
I think Paul George is right up there with Iggy, LeBron and TA as the best wing defender in basketball.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: McHales Pits on September 13, 2013, 04:52:16 PM
Guys/Girls-

Sorry I haven't been able to post on my behalf - I have been really busy with work in the last couple days.

To win this series, it will be essential that my defense continues to another opposing offenses and spark easy transition baskets. Bradley/Ellis/Chalmers on Lawson is a matchup that is in my favor. Although Lawson is extremely quick, all of those defenders are just as quick and bigger than him.
He is the spark plug to this offense and shutting him down essentially shuts down this offense.

Cleveland has a great defense, but can be exploited when Garnett is off the floor and Horford becomes the center. James would move to PF to matchup against Landry - a huge mismatch. When Allen and Wallace are draped on Lebron, I expect he will use his size mismatch to create position for himself to score. I also expect Battier, Chalmers, and Korver to play big minutes to provide efficient kickout options when Lebron or Ellis need to facilitate.

To the earlier post that laid out scoring for Cleveland - I think it was overstated.

Lawson 14-18
Horford 12-16
Garnett 12-16
Landry 6-12
Crawford 6-12
Wallace 6-10
Allen 6-10

Not enough offense/shooting to overcome Minnesota's defense. Crawford is a terrible playoff performer. Minny has the defense to shut down Cleveland's biggest/only shot creating (and facilitating) option.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 13, 2013, 04:53:00 PM
Is Paul George that good a defender? Surprised to see his name on that list, but then I see he was one of your guys.
I think Paul George is right up there with Iggy, LeBron and TA as the best wing defender in basketball.

Is he? I haven't paid much attention to his defense. Better than Leonard?
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Who on September 13, 2013, 04:57:32 PM
Is Paul George that good a defender? Surprised to see his name on that list, but then I see he was one of your guys.
I think Paul George is right up there with Iggy, LeBron and TA as the best wing defender in basketball.

Is he? I haven't paid much attention to his defense. Better than Leonard?

I think so. His length and lateral quickness are exceptional. Plays with a lot of effort and commitment defensively. Can defend multiple positions. A very difficult defensive player to play against.

I don't think Kawhi Leonard is on that level. That level being an All-League defender. I think he will get there in time. In another year or two. But I don't think he is there yet. A notch below those other guys.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 13, 2013, 05:02:00 PM
Lawson 14-18
Horford 12-16
Garnett 12-16
Landry 6-12
Crawford 6-12
Wallace 6-10
Allen 6-10

Those are some pretty modest predictions. I have at least 2ppg more for most of these guys.

Bradley/Ellis/Chalmers on Lawson is a matchup that is in my favor.

And I disagree here. Bradley gets feasted upon by Lawson. Haven't looked up Ellis/Chalmers numbers, but I'm a little wiped after 40+ posts in this thread.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 13, 2013, 06:51:07 PM
Am I wrong to have more faith in Jamal Crawford scoring 15 a night within the flow of the game (read: not to the detriment of his team's offense) than I do in Monta Ellis?
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: dark_lord on September 13, 2013, 06:51:51 PM


Argument:  There's no such thing as a "wrong" opinion.

Reality:  (Biting my tongue.)

continuing to harp on such things will only make people not want to engage in conversation or debate.  i know it has for me.  i voted minny and dont even feel like attempting to justify it. i would only be labeled or potentially made to feel i would be "wrong" in a few people's opinion.


congrats to both teams for making it thus far. i will only observe from here on out until the results are posted.  to all gm's, congrats on making this draft a good one.  with no consensus favorite, it shows the balance in the draft this year....kudos.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 13, 2013, 07:00:49 PM


Argument:  There's no such thing as a "wrong" opinion.

Reality:  (Biting my tongue.)

continuing to harp on such things will only make people not want to engage in conversation or debate.  i know it has for me.  i voted minny and dont even feel like attempting to justify it. i would only be labeled or potentially made to feel i would be "wrong" in a few people's opinion.


congrats to both teams for making it thus far. i will only observe from here on out until the results are posted.  to all gm's, congrats on making this draft a good one.  with no consensus favorite, it shows the balance in the draft this year....kudos.

That wasn't for you, it was meant as a joke where Roy is making fun of his own 'I'm right and you're wrong' persona. Kind of like when he said to KGs knee 'we can't all be right'
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 13, 2013, 07:03:08 PM
Although Im not saying he doesn't think you're wrong. It's a really meta joke.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 13, 2013, 07:20:41 PM
Although Im not saying he doesn't think you're wrong. It's a really meta joke.

(http://blogs.kcrw.com/whichwayla/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/MWP.jpg)
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 13, 2013, 07:42:31 PM
Everyone, what Lucky did right there is awesome.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 13, 2013, 07:47:49 PM
Everyone, what Lucky did right there is awesome.

Just trying to end the work week strong, man. Give 110%, 110% of the time.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 13, 2013, 09:25:42 PM
Am I wrong to have more faith in Jamal Crawford scoring 15 a night within the flow of the game (read: not to the detriment of his team's offense) than I do in Monta Ellis?

I don't think you're wrong ;)
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: McHales Pits on September 13, 2013, 09:57:04 PM
Yeah I've pretty much stopped responding to Roy's posts regarding Monta, my team's scoring issues, and all of the other reasons why he thought I should have lost long ago. He has been the VP of the Anti-Minnesota club - which is cool and completely fine. But yeah - not everyone will agree with him or with me...it's just time to let people form their own opinions and vote and see who comes out on top.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 13, 2013, 09:59:44 PM
Yeah I've pretty much stopped responding to Roy's posts regarding Monta, my team's scoring issues, and all of the other reasons why he thought I should have lost long ago. He has been the VP of the Anti-Minnesota club - which is cool and completely fine. But yeah - not everyone will agree with him or with me...it's just time to let people form their own opinions and vote and see who comes out on top.

It's an interesting strategy, not responding to a single criticism of your team no matter how legitimate.  Three posts in the entire Finals thread is a bit disappointing, but what can you do?

I disagreed with nick pretty vehemently that anybody would willingly adopt a "say nothing" strategy, but I was wrong.  It goes against the very premise of the CB Draft, which is based upon defending one's team and vigorous debate.  But, it looks like it will work out for you. Congrats on the championship.

nick has been petitioning for rules changes for next year's draft, and it looks like he's going to get them.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: ronaldo943 on September 13, 2013, 10:52:32 PM
Congrats to AB and air for winning the championship. (At least from what I read seems like you guys will win) You guys built a very nice team and clearly you 2 have chemistry as this is not the first time you guys have a built a very good team. (DKC)
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: McHales Pits on September 13, 2013, 11:09:53 PM
It's not that I was willingly choosing to not respond. Work has been crazy and I have been traveling and posting from my iPhone.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: fairweatherfan on September 14, 2013, 12:09:55 AM
Good luck to both teams!  And a TP to nick for keeping this whole monstrosity running so smoothly.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 14, 2013, 12:13:32 AM
I thought the teams pretty much even.

So I devised a system.

I gave Min a off score of 18 and a defensive score of 18
I gave CLE a OFF Score of 16, a defensive score of 20

I gave each team 3 specials I used twice a piece

Min:
+6 ATK (huge game from Lebron)
+3 ATK (big game from Monta)
+4 Def (big game from Ibaka)

CLE
+3 ATk/+3 DEF (Vintage KG game, and they get -1/-1 in the next contest)
+3 ATK Big game from Ty Lawson
+1 ATK/+3 DEF 'Treat' Tony Allen

Each home game got a +2 DEF for the home team

For ATK score I rolled a d20, for def a d10

Game 1: Huge game from Lebron James, too big in fact for CLE to counter, despite a vintage game from KG. MIN

Game 2: KG looks sluggish, defense suffers, MIN wins in a landslide

Game 3: Huge game for Lebron in first away contest, but bigger game from KG, CLE impresses home crowd. CLE

Game 4: Monta Ellis brings his A game, again KG looks sluggish, the defense tries to make a good showing, but despite a big game from Ty Lawson, just can't pull through. MIN

Game 5: A defensive clinic, Serge Ibaka blocks shots without remorse, but Tony Allen is a problem, causing nearly as many turnovers and even spending some time on LeBron. The home team wins in a squeaker. CLE

Game 6: ANOTHER huge game from Monta, and it looks to be enough, but Minny's defense otherwise is sound, and Ty Lawson pours on a 30 point performance. CLE

GAME 7: Both teams came ready to play. Serge Ibaka again looks to be the stud his second round pick warranted. Tony Allen is EVERYWHERE on the court at once. Neither team can seem to find a rhythm offensively, and the most efficient offense comes from broken plays and turnovers. It heads to overtime. Cleveland finds another gear. CLE WINS! CLE WINS!

Seriously, a tie in game 7. Who says the dice don't have a flair for the dramatic?
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 14, 2013, 12:28:21 AM
I'm disappointed that we were using a d20 system. Not fine-tuned enough for me.

I would have preferred a 10d10 system. Get right down to the percentile level, you know?

Anyhoo, Schooner Exact is now batting 3 for 3 with me. Probably doesn't mean much if you're not within driving distance of the Cascades, but I've got to speak the truth.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 14, 2013, 12:31:49 AM
I'm disappointed that we were using a d20 system. Not fine-tuned enough for me.

I would have preferred a 10d10 system. Get right down to the percentile level, you know?

Anyhoo, Schooner Exact is now batting 3 for 3 with me. Probably doesn't mean much if you're not within driving distance of the Cascades, but I've got to speak the truth.

Haha, well Im a traditionialist. A creature of habit.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 14, 2013, 12:36:04 AM
FTR, it's Flying Dog's Raging Explitive for me. Belgian White IPA, that doesn't have a whole lot going for it besides the hops in the front, and the 7% kick.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 14, 2013, 12:37:17 AM
I'm disappointed that we were using a d20 system. Not fine-tuned enough for me.

I would have preferred a 10d10 system. Get right down to the percentile level, you know?

Anyhoo, Schooner Exact is now batting 3 for 3 with me. Probably doesn't mean much if you're not within driving distance of the Cascades, but I've got to speak the truth.

Haha, well Im a traditionialist. A creature of habit.

Well, I'm sure there's a school of thought that an 8d12 system might have been just as reflective of the nuances at play in this particular scenario.

But who's got those dice on hand? d12? Please, this is America. Rebus knows what I mean.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Lucky17 on September 14, 2013, 12:38:58 AM
FTR, it's Flying Dog's Raging Explitive for me. Belgian White IPA, that doesn't have a whole lot going for it besides the hops in the front, and the 7% kick.

Ironically, Schooner Exact's Porter is called Profanity Hill.

Blue language + beer = win.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: fairweatherfan on September 14, 2013, 12:57:43 AM
St. Bernardus Tripel over here. 

Congrats to Minnesota on the win, and to Cleveland for the tie. 
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: The Walker Wiggle on September 14, 2013, 01:00:53 AM
I'm disappointed that we were using a d20 system. Not fine-tuned enough for me.

I would have preferred a 10d10 system. Get right down to the percentile level, you know?

Anyhoo, Schooner Exact is now batting 3 for 3 with me. Probably doesn't mean much if you're not within driving distance of the Cascades, but I've got to speak the truth.

Haha, well Im a traditionialist. A creature of habit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnYKVeb5v60
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: indeedproceed on September 14, 2013, 01:09:24 AM
I'm disappointed that we were using a d20 system. Not fine-tuned enough for me.

I would have preferred a 10d10 system. Get right down to the percentile level, you know?

Anyhoo, Schooner Exact is now batting 3 for 3 with me. Probably doesn't mean much if you're not within driving distance of the Cascades, but I've got to speak the truth.

Haha, well Im a traditionialist. A creature of habit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnYKVeb5v60

That was impressive.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Kane3387 on September 14, 2013, 05:58:38 AM
Congrats minny
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 14, 2013, 09:53:58 AM
Argument:  Lebron can't lose unless he's got a small forward on him who can both score and play elite defense.

Reality:  Lebron lost in the 2010 Finals, despite playing against Shawn Marion.  He also lost against Hedo Turkuglu / Rashard Lewis.

I did actually want to address this point yesterday, but got distracted.

1st, I did say that Marion was on my "longer" list back in 2010.  He was, at that point, still a good enough defenders to bother LeBron, and was hitting his 3's.  Very comparable to Kawhi Leonard of 2013.  However, Marion had Dirk, who was still an elite scorer and extremely difficult to defend.

The most important difference between LeBron 2010 and Lebron 2012 and on, however, is that he is no longer is burdened by his "choking" ways.  Prior to winning his 1st title, he seemed to crumble a bit, at times, under the pressure.  If you watch him now, particularly his mannerisms on the court, it is easy to see he fears nothing anymore.

So, my point is that using the Dallas series, or any other series prior to that, isn't necessarily a valid comparison.  I truly believe he has become a different player, primarily due to his being able to shed the proverbial monkey on his back.

You need to be that much better now.  The IRL Spurs fit the definition.  They had Kawhi Leonard, an additionally were better in many other areas (hint hint-Tony Parker).  Still, they couldn't beat Miami, although that can be attributed to Ray Allen and his dagger three.  IRL Miami (IRL Spurs too) would have outclassed any, and every, team in the CB Draft.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 14, 2013, 10:54:02 AM
Congrats to McHP on the title, especially in his first go-around.

The HCA tiebreaker might sting a bit, but I'm still very proud of what I was able to do. Looking forward to participating again next year.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 14, 2013, 11:17:28 AM
I'm still very proud of what I was able to do. Looking forward to participating again next year.

Congrats, AB.  For whatever it's worth, I consider you to be co-champion this year.  Excellent job building your team.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: McHales Pits on September 14, 2013, 12:43:09 PM
Same for me...a tie is a tie. Job well done, sirs.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 14, 2013, 01:12:18 PM
Same for me...a tie is a tie. Job well done, sirs.

Very magnanimous, MP.  Congrats to you, too.  Even though I didn't love parts of your team, having Lebron + a fantastic team defense goes a long way.  And, you did the impossible:  you got Monta Ellis a ring.

Since the rules are a little ambiguous about ties in the Finals (i.e., the rules only talk about tie-breakers for teams to "advance"), and based upon input from the rest of the Mod Staff, I propose we officially crown you both Co-Champions.

I think there's a lot of wisdom in acknowledging that there doesn't have to be an Ultimate Champion, when both teams excelled through some very tough playoff opponents.  It's the ultimate recognition of the parity we had this year.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KCattheStripe on September 14, 2013, 01:48:29 PM
Personally, I think the idea of co champs is a little ridiculous and I like the AB brothers, but McH put together a team that earned HCA, it would never have dawned on me that the word " advance" would exclude a team from winning a championship, nor do I think it should. McHP put together a team that won by the rules we have, if we want to talk about it for next year, that's cool. But the TWolves advanced to from the Finals to the Trophy podium.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 14, 2013, 02:09:08 PM
Personally, I think the idea of co champs is a little ridiculous and I like the AB brothers, but McH put together a team that earned HCA, it would never have dawned on me that the word " advance" would exclude a team from winning a championship, nor do I think it should. McHP put together a team that won by the rules we have, if we want to talk about it for next year, that's cool. But the TWolves advanced to from the Finals to the Trophy podium.

I suggested it because MP called it a tie.  If he's fine with co-champions, why shouldn't anybody else be?

I think that losing the CB Draft based upon a technicality has got to be a huge stomach punch.  If all of those involved are fine with co-champions, then I think that's cool.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 14, 2013, 02:10:00 PM
Personally, I think the idea of co champs is a little ridiculous and I like the AB brothers, but McH put together a team that earned HCA, it would never have dawned on me that the word " advance" would exclude a team from winning a championship, nor do I think it should. McHP put together a team that won by the rules we have, if we want to talk about it for next year, that's cool. But the TWolves advanced to from the Finals to the Trophy podium.

I agree

I mean, it seems a little unfair to change the rules after the fact based on a perceived ambiguity, real or imagined.  I can't imagine anyone participating didn't realize a tie in the Finals would be broken in the same manner as other rounds.

Someone had to win, and I can't think of a better way to break the tie (suggestions???).  The end result, while brutal for the Cavs, seems fair.

But I don't make or enforce the rules, so whoever does, do as you please.  If I don't like the changes, I just will simply not play again.  No hard feelings.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 14, 2013, 02:11:28 PM

I mean, it seems a little unfair to change the rules after the fact based on a perceived ambiguity, real or imagined.

The rules aren't clear about what happens for a tie-breaker in the Finals, and it's not really "unfair" since MP agrees with the result.

I mean, it's an internet contest.  After weeks of often vigorous debate, the two top teams got the same number of votes.  Head-2-head, it was a tie.

Early in the playoffs, it's necessary for a team to "advance".  Here, it's not.  Co-Champions makes sense.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: fairweatherfan on September 14, 2013, 02:15:45 PM
Personally, I think the idea of co champs is a little ridiculous and I like the AB brothers, but McH put together a team that earned HCA, it would never have dawned on me that the word " advance" would exclude a team from winning a championship, nor do I think it should. McHP put together a team that won by the rules we have, if we want to talk about it for next year, that's cool. But the TWolves advanced to from the Finals to the Trophy podium.

I agree - advance doesn't seem ambiguous at all, it refers to winning the series.  I think it's really cool that we had a tie in the voting, and it reflected how closely matched the series was, but fudging the rules at the last second doesn't seem appropriate.  And that's speaking as someone who voted for Cleveland.

Also, I might be a little confused, but I was under the impression that the commissioner was in charge of interpreting and applying the rules of the draft, not the moderating staff.  Maybe the mods have some kind of veto power? 
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KGs Knee on September 14, 2013, 02:17:01 PM

I mean, it seems a little unfair to change the rules after the fact based on a perceived ambiguity, real or imagined.

The rules aren't clear about what happens for a tie-breaker in the Finals, and it's not really "unfair" since MP agrees with the result.

Maybe, but who wants to be the winner who wasn't gracious?  Kind of puts him a tough spot.

I see no such ambiguity in the rules.  "Advancing" in this context is tantamount to "winning".
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 14, 2013, 02:17:25 PM
Someone had to win, and I can't think of a better way to break the tie (suggestions???).  The end result, while brutal for the Cavs, seems fair.

Number of posts in the finals thread? ;)

Kidding of course. I'm perfectly okay getting to call myself the EC champ. If the mods do want to change things, I won't stop them, but I'm fine where I am.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: KCattheStripe on September 14, 2013, 02:18:50 PM

I mean, it seems a little unfair to change the rules after the fact based on a perceived ambiguity, real or imagined.

The rules aren't clear about what happens for a tie-breaker in the Finals

It's really only unclear if you work at making it unclear.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: nickagneta on September 14, 2013, 02:22:32 PM
I declared Minnesota the winner because I understood that HCA was the deciding factor in all ties in the playoffs. So I believe according to the rules in place, Minnesota won.

That being said, if MP wants to share his trophy and the people who makes the rules want to declare co-champions based on MP's suggestion to share the title, I have no problem with that. I find it to be quite a magnanimous gesture on the part of MP and should be applauded.

TP for MP for even saying it and give the man more TP's for actually meaning it. That is pretty dang cool, IMHO!!!! I think that type of sportsmanship should be commended.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 14, 2013, 02:22:39 PM
Also, I might be a little confused, but I was under the impression that the commissioner was in charge of interpreting and applying the rules of the draft, not the moderating staff.  Maybe the mods have some kind of veto power?

The mods do indeed have veto power, but it would never be exercised in a situation like this.  Rather, tis was advanced as a suggestion, based upon what MP said.  It's not a directive, just what I think is a nice idea based upon MP being gracious.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Roy H. on September 14, 2013, 02:24:31 PM
TP for MP for even saying it and give the man more TP's for actually meaning it. That is pretty dang cool, IMHO!!!! I think that type of sportsmanship should be commended.

I definitely agree with that.  There would be no shame in saying "I won, and congrats to my runner-up".  To announce that a tie is a tie is extraordinarily gracious, and probably not something many of us over-competitive souls would have done.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on September 14, 2013, 02:39:14 PM
TP for MP for even saying it and give the man more TP's for actually meaning it. That is pretty dang cool, IMHO!!!! I think that type of sportsmanship should be commended.

Agreed. TP given MP. Thanks for saying that!

That's a classy winner right there.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: fitzhickey on September 14, 2013, 07:37:59 PM
what a sportsman like move!
good on you MP and AB
both teams were excellent
TP's to both of y'all
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: McHales Pits on April 30, 2014, 11:33:40 AM
Sorry to dig this up from the past, but since my DKC team is deep in the lottery this is my only past success to cling to. I thought I would revisit my roster and my opponents' roster to see if my opinions changed on any of the players involved after playing the 2013-14 season.

Looks like I was right about Monta and DeAndre. Monta collected the same counting stats with much more efficient percentages. DeAndre broke out in a big way. Avery showed improved shooting this season. Ibaka and Korver as expected. LeBron is LeBron.

 ;D
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: Kane3387 on April 30, 2014, 11:37:35 AM
Sorry to dig this up from the past, but since my DKC team is deep in the lottery this is my only past success to cling to. I thought I would revisit my roster and my opponents' roster to see if my opinions changed on any of the players involved after playing the 2013-14 season.

Looks like I was right about Monta and DeAndre. Monta collected the same counting stats with much more efficient percentages. DeAndre broke out in a big way. Avery showed improved shooting this season. Ibaka and Korver as expected. LeBron is LeBron.

 ;D

Should have never made it passed the semis.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: McHales Pits on April 30, 2014, 11:41:51 AM
How's Derrick's knee doing?
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: BigAlTheFuture on April 30, 2014, 01:53:08 PM
No way Cleveland should have made the finals in hindsight. Even back then, I was surprised to see them advance so far.
Title: Re: 2013 CB Draft Finals: Minnesota(1) vs Cleveland(3)
Post by: AB_Celtic on April 30, 2014, 02:49:20 PM
No way Cleveland should have made the finals in hindsight. Even back then, I was surprised to see them advance so far.

(http://www.sectalk.com/board/public/imported_images/i297.photobucket.com/Kobe-U-Mad.jpg)