CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: tonyto3690 on February 01, 2013, 04:46:57 PM
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Rondo last season ... +196 (second best on team)
Rondo this season ... -56 (second worst on team)
And for what it's worth...
Bass this season ... -125
Who knows why this is. Maybe it's just the lack of floor spacing Ray gave and the instantaneous anywhere, anytime spot up shooting Ray also gave that Lee, Terry and Bradley obviously lack. Maybe the load is just far too heavy on him and effecting his *ahem* defensive intensity.
Rondo has been mediocre this season, we all know it. But I'd like to point out as garbage as he's been for us this season, it's an anomaly, not the norm. He's played way better for us in the past and in the post season is obviously no comparison.
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And Rondo has played most of those minutes with Bass. Who's at "fault" for it? Its hard to tell without doing a heck of a lot more analysis.
Which is why +/- in its raw form isn't very useful. It's very noisy and subject to wide swings even when a player's overall quality of play hasn't changed but his team's or teammates have.
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**affect
Don't worry about it,everyone has off seasons.
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And Rondo has played most of those minutes with Bass. Who's at "fault" for it? Its hard to tell without doing a heck of a lot more analysis.
Which is why +/- in its raw form isn't very useful. It's very noisy and subject to wide swings even when a player's overall quality of play hasn't changed but his team's or teammates have.
Bass is -79 as a starter
Bass is -46 as a bench player
While I agree, +/- is a foolish way to use as a black and white evaluation tool, it's unquestionably a good indicator as long as the team isn't filled with junk around them.
It's not a coincidence that KG is always at the top of the +/- for our team.
It's not a coincidence Rondo was second in +/- last year
It's not a coincidence Pierce is consistently top 3 in +/- for us.
Again, we're not talking about a small drop. We're talking about a massive disaprity. We're talking a triple digit positive number dropping to a double digit negative number. His +/- has dropped over TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY POINTS.
That is completely absurd and completely inexcusable.
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I do think Rondo's defense slipped substantially this year. His opponent PER has gone from 10 to 15. With him on the floor the Celts allow 104 points per 100 possessions this year, compared to 100 last year.
But, it's also true that his net plus/minus benefited last year from the fact that his backups were Dooling, Moore and Bradley (who struggled early in the year).
This year our bench guard rotation is quite a bit stronger.
I think it's a combination of both.
Aside from the data, I definitely felt like something indefinable was missing from Rondo's game this year. He looked good individually, but I never got the sense that he was making the players around him that much better. In years past I thought he was doing that.
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This doesnt surprise me.
I've been saying all year that his play has gone downhill this season, and it seems to coincide with an attitude change once it was declared "this is Rondo's team" by Pierce. It really looks to me that this has gone to his head, and hos play has suffered as a result.
Last year I loved his play, though all his big-stat games were pure effort and a result of hos desire to win, whereas this year I feel it's become all about him getting his numbers and proving he's the "top PG in the league" rather than simply wanting to win.
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I don't think its impossible that Rajon was running around with a partially torn acl all season. It would explain a lot.
Nevertheless I have personally seen enough over the years that I would hold by breath and trade him for as solid a big as I can get. I realize he will then drop a 23-15-10 on us every time we see him. Well, with Bradley around maybe it will only be a 18-13-8 :o
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Rondo last season ... +196 (second best on team)
Rondo this season ... -56 (second worst on team)
And for what it's worth...
Bass this season ... -125
Who knows why this is. Maybe it's just the lack of floor spacing Ray gave and the instantaneous anywhere, anytime spot up shooting Ray also gave that Lee, Terry and Bradley obviously lack. Maybe the load is just far too heavy on him and effecting his *ahem* defensive intensity.
Rondo has been mediocre this season, we all know it. But I'd like to point out as garbage as he's been for us this season, it's an anomaly, not the norm. He's played way better for us in the past and in the post season is obviously no comparison.
+/- is a pretty noisy stat. Consider that almost half of the -56 came from the Kings game when he shouldn't have been on the court because of his bruised hip.
Also, consider our normal substitution patterns. KG starts a half, goes out after 5 minutes, comes in near the quarter break, goes out 3-4 minutes into the 2nd quarter and comes in late in the quarter. Rondo plays most of the first, leaves near the end of the quarter (around the time KG comes back in), comes back in with 6-7 minutes left in the quarter (right after KG comes out) and plays out the half. Rondo's on the court most of the time KG's on the bench and for much of the season we've had seriously poor play from the front court without KG.
Couple that with the games Rondo's played when he wasn't healthy and the generally inconsistent play of the team and you'll see that it's probably much less reflective of Rondo's play than you'd imagine (or many have claimed).
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Up to the point where Rondo got injured, he was not having his best year.
It happens.
It doesn't mean it is a trend.
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I do think Rondo's defense slipped substantially this year. His opponent PER has gone from 10 to 15. With him on the floor the Celts allow 104 points per 100 possessions this year, compared to 100 last year.
Opponent PER is pretty tricky this year because he's spent so much of the year covering shooting guards. His synergy numbers are up a little lately but still not too much worse than last year (like .77 ppp compared to .75 or .74 ppp).
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Up to the point where Rondo got injured, he was not having his best year.
It happens.
It doesn't mean it is a trend.
Actually, I think statistically he WAS having his best year, wasn't he?
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Up to the point where Rondo got injured, he was not having his best year.
It happens.
It doesn't mean it is a trend.
Actually, I think statistically he WAS having his best year, wasn't he?
He shot better.
But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
He was foul rate was up. And other teams PGs were having better luck this season.
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I do think Rondo's defense slipped substantially this year. His opponent PER has gone from 10 to 15. With him on the floor the Celts allow 104 points per 100 possessions this year, compared to 100 last year.
Opponent PER is pretty tricky this year because he's spent so much of the year covering shooting guards. His synergy numbers are up a little lately but still not too much worse than last year (like .77 ppp compared to .75 or .74 ppp).
Just curious, where did you get the Synergy numbers?
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Up to the point where Rondo got injured, he was not having his best year.
It happens.
It doesn't mean it is a trend.
Actually, I think statistically he WAS having his best year, wasn't he?
He shot better.
But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
He was foul rate was up. And other teams PGs were having better luck this season.
Yeah, overall though his improved shooting probably made up for the first two aspects.
The drop off in his defense was more problematic.
Opposing PG production hard to disentangle that from Terry being in the starting line up. Terry would go on the weakest offensive threat the other team had (if they had a Bogans type), or the PG if none really fit the bill.
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Up to the point where Rondo got injured, he was not having his best year.
It happens.
It doesn't mean it is a trend.
Actually, I think statistically he WAS having his best year, wasn't he?
He shot better.
But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
He was foul rate was up. And other teams PGs were having better luck this season.
Yeah, overall though his improved shooting probably made up for the first two aspects.
The drop off in his defense was more problematic.
Opposing PG production hard to disentangle that from Terry being in the starting line up. Terry would go on the weakest offensive threat the other team had (if they had a Bogans type), or the PG if none really fit the bill.
Not true. For example, Terry was the player guarding Monta Ellis.
We usually didn't do any cross matching, Terry stayed with SGs and Rondo with PGs, when logic should've dictated the should've switched assignments most of the time.
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Up to the point where Rondo got injured, he was not having his best year.
It happens.
It doesn't mean it is a trend.
Actually, I think statistically he WAS having his best year, wasn't he?
He shot better.
But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
He was foul rate was up. And other teams PGs were having better luck this season.
Yeah, overall though his improved shooting probably made up for the first two aspects.
The drop off in his defense was more problematic.
Opposing PG production hard to disentangle that from Terry being in the starting line up. Terry would go on the weakest offensive threat the other team had (if they had a Bogans type), or the PG if none really fit the bill.
Not true. For example, Terry was the player guarding Monta Ellis.
We usually didn't do any cross matching, Terry stayed with SGs and Rondo with PGs, when logic should've dictated the should've switched assignments most of the time.
I remember Rondo generally playing the tougher assignment when he was in with Terry. Switching assignments was fairly typical earlier this year (and late this year with Bradley playing).
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Up to the point where Rondo got injured, he was not having his best year.
It happens.
It doesn't mean it is a trend.
Actually, I think statistically he WAS having his best year, wasn't he?
He shot better.
But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
He was foul rate was up. And other teams PGs were having better luck this season.
Yeah, overall though his improved shooting probably made up for the first two aspects.
The drop off in his defense was more problematic.
Opposing PG production hard to disentangle that from Terry being in the starting line up. Terry would go on the weakest offensive threat the other team had (if they had a Bogans type), or the PG if none really fit the bill.
Not true. For example, Terry was the player guarding Monta Ellis.
We usually didn't do any cross matching, Terry stayed with SGs and Rondo with PGs, when logic should've dictated the should've switched assignments most of the time.
I remember Rondo generally playing the tougher assignment when he was in with Terry. Switching assignments was fairly typical earlier this year (and late this year with Bradley playing).
When he was on the floor with Rondo, very rarely did they put Terry on the PG assignment. I really can't recall an instance in which Rondo's assignment was not the PG. I do recall though screaming for Doc to constantly change the assignments as Terry was simply overmatched by SGs, and Doc refused to put Rondo on them.
Of course, a play here and there, a pick is set and they switched in those instances, but I can't recall a game in which Doc assigned Terry to the PG while Rondo was on the floor.
In fact, I give credit to the improvement to Terry's defense specifically to finally him guarding PGs rather than SGs.
Edit: But the Bogans point above is completely true, but nothing to do with Rondo though. That one has more to do with Pierce on Joe Johnson than anything.
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Rondo last season ... +196 (second best on team)
Rondo this season ... -56 (second worst on team)
And for what it's worth...
Bass this season ... -125
Who knows why this is. Maybe it's just the lack of floor spacing Ray gave and the instantaneous anywhere, anytime spot up shooting Ray also gave that Lee, Terry and Bradley obviously lack. Maybe the load is just far too heavy on him and effecting his *ahem* defensive intensity.
Rondo has been mediocre this season, we all know it. But I'd like to point out as garbage as he's been for us this season, it's an anomaly, not the norm. He's played way better for us in the past and in the post season is obviously no comparison.
The team is an overall minus and Rondo probably played the most minutes, so not surprising.
Should probably do the stat as a per minute stat so that it isn't so skewed by MPG.
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ALL stats are fatally flawed, in some way or another, it's just finding how to minimize the flaws.
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Up to the point where Rondo got injured, he was not having his best year.
It happens.
It doesn't mean it is a trend.
Actually, I think statistically he WAS having his best year, wasn't he?
He shot better.
But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
He was foul rate was up. And other teams PGs were having better luck this season.
Yeah, overall though his improved shooting probably made up for the first two aspects.
The drop off in his defense was more problematic.
Opposing PG production hard to disentangle that from Terry being in the starting line up. Terry would go on the weakest offensive threat the other team had (if they had a Bogans type), or the PG if none really fit the bill.
Not true. For example, Terry was the player guarding Monta Ellis.
We usually didn't do any cross matching, Terry stayed with SGs and Rondo with PGs, when logic should've dictated the should've switched assignments most of the time.
I remember Rondo generally playing the tougher assignment when he was in with Terry. Switching assignments was fairly typical earlier this year (and late this year with Bradley playing).
When he was on the floor with Rondo, very rarely did they put Terry on the PG assignment. I really can't recall an instance in which Rondo's assignment was not the PG. I do recall though screaming for Doc to constantly change the assignments as Terry was simply overmatched by SGs, and Doc refused to put Rondo on them.
Of course, a play here and there, a pick is set and they switched in those instances, but I can't recall a game in which Doc assigned Terry to the PG while Rondo was on the floor.
In fact, I give credit to the improvement to Terry's defense specifically to finally him guarding PGs rather than SGs.
Edit: But the Bogans point above is completely true, but nothing to do with Rondo though. That one has more to do with Pierce on Joe Johnson than anything.
Off the top of my head I know Rondo spent much of the opening game guarding Wade. He also spent a lot of time guarding Harden when we were in Houston, he spent much of at least one of the Bucks games on Ellis, he spent much of at least 1 game on Hamilton, he guarded Stuckey a lot instead of Knight.
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I remember during the offseason when Rondo was galavanting all over the world, I asked why he was not working on his game and I was slammed. Owell
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I remember during the offseason when Rondo was galavanting all over the world, I asked why he was not working on his game and I was slammed. Owell
He seems to have improved his jumper quite a bit, I'd wonder how many players on the Celts saw bigger improvements to their game from last year.
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Up to the point where Rondo got injured, he was not having his best year.
It happens.
It doesn't mean it is a trend.
Actually, I think statistically he WAS having his best year, wasn't he?
He shot better.
But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
He was foul rate was up. And other teams PGs were having better luck this season.
Yeah, overall though his improved shooting probably made up for the first two aspects.
The drop off in his defense was more problematic.
Opposing PG production hard to disentangle that from Terry being in the starting line up. Terry would go on the weakest offensive threat the other team had (if they had a Bogans type), or the PG if none really fit the bill.
Not true. For example, Terry was the player guarding Monta Ellis.
We usually didn't do any cross matching, Terry stayed with SGs and Rondo with PGs, when logic should've dictated the should've switched assignments most of the time.
I remember Rondo generally playing the tougher assignment when he was in with Terry. Switching assignments was fairly typical earlier this year (and late this year with Bradley playing).
When he was on the floor with Rondo, very rarely did they put Terry on the PG assignment. I really can't recall an instance in which Rondo's assignment was not the PG. I do recall though screaming for Doc to constantly change the assignments as Terry was simply overmatched by SGs, and Doc refused to put Rondo on them.
Of course, a play here and there, a pick is set and they switched in those instances, but I can't recall a game in which Doc assigned Terry to the PG while Rondo was on the floor.
In fact, I give credit to the improvement to Terry's defense specifically to finally him guarding PGs rather than SGs.
Edit: But the Bogans point above is completely true, but nothing to do with Rondo though. That one has more to do with Pierce on Joe Johnson than anything.
Off the top of my head I know Rondo spent much of the opening game guarding Wade. He also spent a lot of time guarding Harden when we were in Houston, he spent much of at least one of the Bucks games on Ellis, he spent much of at least 1 game on Hamilton, he guarded Stuckey a lot instead of Knight.
I'm pretty sure Wade played plenty of PG minutes in that game, and I think Wade was guarding Rondo in turn.
Houston was one of the few games I didn't manage to watch.
Don't see the point of mentioning Stuckey and Knight, Knight is a better offensive player at the moment, and starting ahead of Stuckey, and having a more succesful season so far. Plus, Stuckey plays PG too.
Hamilton I don't recall the circumstances exactly. He was destroying everyone in the post if I recall correctly, so it could've been just a matter of trying something different.
In any case, the point in all of this is that there was never a plan to put Rondo on the toughest match-up, on the best offensive player. Did he occasionally end up doing so? Sure, but that's true for just about everyone in the league and the team.
It's not like when you put Bradley in there who pretty much automatically either goes to the biggest threat, or goes to the PG to disrupt the offense. That wasn't the dynamic being played when Rondo and Terry were together.
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I remember during the offseason when Rondo was galavanting all over the world, I asked why he was not working on his game and I was slammed. Owell
By gallivanting all over the world you mean organizing team workouts in LA to help the new guys (Lee/Terry) get used to the Celtics system, right?
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You're comparing stats of a full season to a stat of a half season. That doesn't make any sense
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Rondo is ever the enigma.
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Well, without Rondo dominating the ball we are looking much better offensively. Everyone is much more involved, there is much better ball movement, and we've become much harder to defend.
Judging from the comments below, is there any doubt that Zach Lowe's comment about Lee was probably true?
"We're just moving the ball a lot more, getting everybody involved," Courtney Lee said. "Rondo, he was primary play-maker, so he would make plays for everybody else and he would rack up assists. But with the personnel, everybody else's game is more of a move, catch & attack and playing in sets. So that's what we've been able to do.
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Up to the point where Rondo got injured, he was not having his best year.
It happens.
It doesn't mean it is a trend.
Actually, I think statistically he WAS having his best year, wasn't he?
He shot better.
But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
He was foul rate was up. And other teams PGs were having better luck this season.
Yeah, overall though his improved shooting probably made up for the first two aspects.
The drop off in his defense was more problematic.
Opposing PG production hard to disentangle that from Terry being in the starting line up. Terry would go on the weakest offensive threat the other team had (if they had a Bogans type), or the PG if none really fit the bill.
Not true. For example, Terry was the player guarding Monta Ellis.
We usually didn't do any cross matching, Terry stayed with SGs and Rondo with PGs, when logic should've dictated the should've switched assignments most of the time.
I remember Rondo generally playing the tougher assignment when he was in with Terry. Switching assignments was fairly typical earlier this year (and late this year with Bradley playing).
When he was on the floor with Rondo, very rarely did they put Terry on the PG assignment. I really can't recall an instance in which Rondo's assignment was not the PG. I do recall though screaming for Doc to constantly change the assignments as Terry was simply overmatched by SGs, and Doc refused to put Rondo on them.
Of course, a play here and there, a pick is set and they switched in those instances, but I can't recall a game in which Doc assigned Terry to the PG while Rondo was on the floor.
In fact, I give credit to the improvement to Terry's defense specifically to finally him guarding PGs rather than SGs.
Edit: But the Bogans point above is completely true, but nothing to do with Rondo though. That one has more to do with Pierce on Joe Johnson than anything.
Off the top of my head I know Rondo spent much of the opening game guarding Wade. He also spent a lot of time guarding Harden when we were in Houston, he spent much of at least one of the Bucks games on Ellis, he spent much of at least 1 game on Hamilton, he guarded Stuckey a lot instead of Knight.
I'm pretty sure Wade played plenty of PG minutes in that game, and I think Wade was guarding Rondo in turn.
Houston was one of the few games I didn't manage to watch.
Don't see the point of mentioning Stuckey and Knight, Knight is a better offensive player at the moment, and starting ahead of Stuckey, and having a more succesful season so far. Plus, Stuckey plays PG too.
Hamilton I don't recall the circumstances exactly. He was destroying everyone in the post if I recall correctly, so it could've been just a matter of trying something different.
In any case, the point in all of this is that there was never a plan to put Rondo on the toughest match-up, on the best offensive player. Did he occasionally end up doing so? Sure, but that's true for just about everyone in the league and the team.
It's not like when you put Bradley in there who pretty much automatically either goes to the biggest threat, or goes to the PG to disrupt the offense. That wasn't the dynamic being played when Rondo and Terry were together.
Chalmers played 36 minutes opening night. I can remember watching long stretches of plenty of games where we were cross-matching assignments because Rondo was covering the sg and not the pg. There were games where Rondo started out guarding the sg and games where Rondo would switch to cover the hot player.
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Well, without Rondo dominating the ball we are looking much better offensively. Everyone is much more involved, there is much better ball movement, and we've become much harder to defend.
Judging from the comments below, is there any doubt that Zach Lowe's comment about Lee was probably true?
"We're just moving the ball a lot more, getting everybody involved," Courtney Lee said. "Rondo, he was primary play-maker, so he would make plays for everybody else and he would rack up assists. But with the personnel, everybody else's game is more of a move, catch & attack and playing in sets. So that's what we've been able to do.
Until lee can put the team on his back in the playoffs and average a triple double...don't care. I think we're better without sully to because now bass is engaged and playing better, Collins too ::)
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Up to the point where Rondo got injured, he was not having his best year.
It happens.
It doesn't mean it is a trend.
Actually, I think statistically he WAS having his best year, wasn't he?
He shot better.
But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
He was foul rate was up. And other teams PGs were having better luck this season.
Yeah, overall though his improved shooting probably made up for the first two aspects.
The drop off in his defense was more problematic.
Opposing PG production hard to disentangle that from Terry being in the starting line up. Terry would go on the weakest offensive threat the other team had (if they had a Bogans type), or the PG if none really fit the bill.
Not true. For example, Terry was the player guarding Monta Ellis.
We usually didn't do any cross matching, Terry stayed with SGs and Rondo with PGs, when logic should've dictated the should've switched assignments most of the time.
I remember Rondo generally playing the tougher assignment when he was in with Terry. Switching assignments was fairly typical earlier this year (and late this year with Bradley playing).
When he was on the floor with Rondo, very rarely did they put Terry on the PG assignment. I really can't recall an instance in which Rondo's assignment was not the PG. I do recall though screaming for Doc to constantly change the assignments as Terry was simply overmatched by SGs, and Doc refused to put Rondo on them.
Of course, a play here and there, a pick is set and they switched in those instances, but I can't recall a game in which Doc assigned Terry to the PG while Rondo was on the floor.
In fact, I give credit to the improvement to Terry's defense specifically to finally him guarding PGs rather than SGs.
Edit: But the Bogans point above is completely true, but nothing to do with Rondo though. That one has more to do with Pierce on Joe Johnson than anything.
Off the top of my head I know Rondo spent much of the opening game guarding Wade. He also spent a lot of time guarding Harden when we were in Houston, he spent much of at least one of the Bucks games on Ellis, he spent much of at least 1 game on Hamilton, he guarded Stuckey a lot instead of Knight.
I'm pretty sure Wade played plenty of PG minutes in that game, and I think Wade was guarding Rondo in turn.
Houston was one of the few games I didn't manage to watch.
Don't see the point of mentioning Stuckey and Knight, Knight is a better offensive player at the moment, and starting ahead of Stuckey, and having a more succesful season so far. Plus, Stuckey plays PG too.
Hamilton I don't recall the circumstances exactly. He was destroying everyone in the post if I recall correctly, so it could've been just a matter of trying something different.
In any case, the point in all of this is that there was never a plan to put Rondo on the toughest match-up, on the best offensive player. Did he occasionally end up doing so? Sure, but that's true for just about everyone in the league and the team.
It's not like when you put Bradley in there who pretty much automatically either goes to the biggest threat, or goes to the PG to disrupt the offense. That wasn't the dynamic being played when Rondo and Terry were together.
Chalmers played 36 minutes opening night. I can remember watching long stretches of plenty of games where we were cross-matching assignments because Rondo was covering the sg and not the pg. There were games where Rondo started out guarding the sg and games where Rondo would switch to cover the hot player.
Yes, he played 36 minutes, Norris Cole played 6, who took on the rest of the minutes? Well that was Wade.
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Rondo last season ... +196 (second best on team)
Rondo this season ... -56 (second worst on team)
And for what it's worth...
Bass this season ... -125
Who knows why this is. Maybe it's just the lack of floor spacing Ray gave and the instantaneous anywhere, anytime spot up shooting Ray also gave that Lee, Terry and Bradley obviously lack. Maybe the load is just far too heavy on him and effecting his *ahem* defensive intensity.
Rondo has been mediocre this season, we all know it. But I'd like to point out as garbage as he's been for us this season, it's an anomaly, not the norm. He's played way better for us in the past and in the post season is obviously no comparison.
So rondo may be declining... so we MUST trade him for a big
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Up to the point where Rondo got injured, he was not having his best year.
It happens.
It doesn't mean it is a trend.
Actually, I think statistically he WAS having his best year, wasn't he?
He shot better.
But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
He was foul rate was up. And other teams PGs were having better luck this season.
Yeah, overall though his improved shooting probably made up for the first two aspects.
The drop off in his defense was more problematic.
Opposing PG production hard to disentangle that from Terry being in the starting line up. Terry would go on the weakest offensive threat the other team had (if they had a Bogans type), or the PG if none really fit the bill.
Not true. For example, Terry was the player guarding Monta Ellis.
We usually didn't do any cross matching, Terry stayed with SGs and Rondo with PGs, when logic should've dictated the should've switched assignments most of the time.
I remember Rondo generally playing the tougher assignment when he was in with Terry. Switching assignments was fairly typical earlier this year (and late this year with Bradley playing).
When he was on the floor with Rondo, very rarely did they put Terry on the PG assignment. I really can't recall an instance in which Rondo's assignment was not the PG. I do recall though screaming for Doc to constantly change the assignments as Terry was simply overmatched by SGs, and Doc refused to put Rondo on them.
Of course, a play here and there, a pick is set and they switched in those instances, but I can't recall a game in which Doc assigned Terry to the PG while Rondo was on the floor.
In fact, I give credit to the improvement to Terry's defense specifically to finally him guarding PGs rather than SGs.
Edit: But the Bogans point above is completely true, but nothing to do with Rondo though. That one has more to do with Pierce on Joe Johnson than anything.
Off the top of my head I know Rondo spent much of the opening game guarding Wade. He also spent a lot of time guarding Harden when we were in Houston, he spent much of at least one of the Bucks games on Ellis, he spent much of at least 1 game on Hamilton, he guarded Stuckey a lot instead of Knight.
I'm pretty sure Wade played plenty of PG minutes in that game, and I think Wade was guarding Rondo in turn.
Houston was one of the few games I didn't manage to watch.
Don't see the point of mentioning Stuckey and Knight, Knight is a better offensive player at the moment, and starting ahead of Stuckey, and having a more succesful season so far. Plus, Stuckey plays PG too.
Hamilton I don't recall the circumstances exactly. He was destroying everyone in the post if I recall correctly, so it could've been just a matter of trying something different.
In any case, the point in all of this is that there was never a plan to put Rondo on the toughest match-up, on the best offensive player. Did he occasionally end up doing so? Sure, but that's true for just about everyone in the league and the team.
It's not like when you put Bradley in there who pretty much automatically either goes to the biggest threat, or goes to the PG to disrupt the offense. That wasn't the dynamic being played when Rondo and Terry were together.
Chalmers played 36 minutes opening night. I can remember watching long stretches of plenty of games where we were cross-matching assignments because Rondo was covering the sg and not the pg. There were games where Rondo started out guarding the sg and games where Rondo would switch to cover the hot player.
Yes, he played 36 minutes, Norris Cole played 6, who took on the rest of the minutes? Well that was Wade.
I'm unsure why I spent the time checking those 6 minutes but Wade was on the bench for 4 of them.
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But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
Probably at least partially reflective of the poor shooting of his teammates. Consider that Rondo has been on the floor a ton of minutes with Bass, Pierce & Terry (plus a still-getting-back-into-it Avery Bradley) during their prolonged shooting slumps.
This has almost certainly left many a potential assist as just that. Potential.
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Up to the point where Rondo got injured, he was not having his best year.
It happens.
It doesn't mean it is a trend.
Actually, I think statistically he WAS having his best year, wasn't he?
He shot better.
But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
He was foul rate was up. And other teams PGs were having better luck this season.
Yeah, overall though his improved shooting probably made up for the first two aspects.
The drop off in his defense was more problematic.
Opposing PG production hard to disentangle that from Terry being in the starting line up. Terry would go on the weakest offensive threat the other team had (if they had a Bogans type), or the PG if none really fit the bill.
Not true. For example, Terry was the player guarding Monta Ellis.
We usually didn't do any cross matching, Terry stayed with SGs and Rondo with PGs, when logic should've dictated the should've switched assignments most of the time.
I remember Rondo generally playing the tougher assignment when he was in with Terry. Switching assignments was fairly typical earlier this year (and late this year with Bradley playing).
When he was on the floor with Rondo, very rarely did they put Terry on the PG assignment. I really can't recall an instance in which Rondo's assignment was not the PG. I do recall though screaming for Doc to constantly change the assignments as Terry was simply overmatched by SGs, and Doc refused to put Rondo on them.
Of course, a play here and there, a pick is set and they switched in those instances, but I can't recall a game in which Doc assigned Terry to the PG while Rondo was on the floor.
In fact, I give credit to the improvement to Terry's defense specifically to finally him guarding PGs rather than SGs.
Edit: But the Bogans point above is completely true, but nothing to do with Rondo though. That one has more to do with Pierce on Joe Johnson than anything.
Off the top of my head I know Rondo spent much of the opening game guarding Wade. He also spent a lot of time guarding Harden when we were in Houston, he spent much of at least one of the Bucks games on Ellis, he spent much of at least 1 game on Hamilton, he guarded Stuckey a lot instead of Knight.
I'm pretty sure Wade played plenty of PG minutes in that game, and I think Wade was guarding Rondo in turn.
Houston was one of the few games I didn't manage to watch.
Don't see the point of mentioning Stuckey and Knight, Knight is a better offensive player at the moment, and starting ahead of Stuckey, and having a more succesful season so far. Plus, Stuckey plays PG too.
Hamilton I don't recall the circumstances exactly. He was destroying everyone in the post if I recall correctly, so it could've been just a matter of trying something different.
In any case, the point in all of this is that there was never a plan to put Rondo on the toughest match-up, on the best offensive player. Did he occasionally end up doing so? Sure, but that's true for just about everyone in the league and the team.
It's not like when you put Bradley in there who pretty much automatically either goes to the biggest threat, or goes to the PG to disrupt the offense. That wasn't the dynamic being played when Rondo and Terry were together.
Chalmers played 36 minutes opening night. I can remember watching long stretches of plenty of games where we were cross-matching assignments because Rondo was covering the sg and not the pg. There were games where Rondo started out guarding the sg and games where Rondo would switch to cover the hot player.
Yes, he played 36 minutes, Norris Cole played 6, who took on the rest of the minutes? Well that was Wade.
I'm unsure why I spent the time checking those 6 minutes but Wade was on the bench for 4 of them.
Just to add a note on this thread, Rondo's two largest by-minute 5-man units were with the starting front 3 (PP+BB+KG) and either Terry (221 minutes) or Bradley (123 minutes).
Surprisingly, the difference in DRtg of those two units is negligible. Both were very good. With Terry it was .99 points per possession and with Bradley it was .98 points per possesion.
That's 343 minutes in aggregate of Rondo with the more experienced players in this system with a very solid .99 DRtg.
His overall DRtg (1.04) pretty clearly was inflated by all the other, small minute lineups he was in that incorporated other, less experienced teammates still learning the defensive system through the first half of the season.
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But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
Probably at least partially reflective of the poor shooting of his teammates. Consider that Rondo has been on the floor a ton of minutes with Bass, Pierce & Terry (plus a still-getting-back-into-it Avery Bradley) during their prolonged shooting slumps.
This has almost certainly left many a potential assist as just that. Potential.
The number of assists didn't go down. The number of TOs went up.
That's not missed shots.
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But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
Probably at least partially reflective of the poor shooting of his teammates. Consider that Rondo has been on the floor a ton of minutes with Bass, Pierce & Terry (plus a still-getting-back-into-it Avery Bradley) during their prolonged shooting slumps.
This has almost certainly left many a potential assist as just that. Potential.
The number of assists didn't go down. The number of TOs went up.
That's not missed shots.
Missed shots would imply that more passes were needed to get the same number of assists.
Also consider that we usually start the season with a pretty set lineup and rotations and add in players in mid-season. His turnovers IMO tend to go up a little after the trades/buyout signings. This year we've been trying to integrate a lot of new people and we haven't had steady rotations all year.
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But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
Probably at least partially reflective of the poor shooting of his teammates. Consider that Rondo has been on the floor a ton of minutes with Bass, Pierce & Terry (plus a still-getting-back-into-it Avery Bradley) during their prolonged shooting slumps.
This has almost certainly left many a potential assist as just that. Potential.
The number of assists didn't go down. The number of TOs went up.
That's not missed shots.
Missed shots would imply that more passes were needed to get the same number of assists.
Also consider that we usually start the season with a pretty set lineup and rotations and add in players in mid-season. His turnovers IMO tend to go up a little after the trades/buyout signings. This year we've been trying to integrate a lot of new people and we haven't had steady rotations all year.
To me, it looks like he was pressing on offense.
He was having a down year defensively.
He can and should play better when he is healthy.
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somebody mentioned...giving Rondo the keys to the team went to his head...........I think there some truth to this , and Doc got sucked into handing the reins to Rondo an stay out of his way.
BAD. IDEA..........Rondo has screwed up the teams play, and not enough people are contributing when he is on the court.
the power has went to his head some, making him a bit of a diva, lazy on defense and over value of himself to the team. other words he has the BIG HEAD.
This is ok.......tif you are walking the walk.....Rondo an't getting done ., is the problem
for every Magnificent play he makes, this year comes a stupid errant pass, defensive lapse,or other bone head play.
when he recovers. if Doc doesn't get his mind right, I say trade him for a decent big
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But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
Probably at least partially reflective of the poor shooting of his teammates. Consider that Rondo has been on the floor a ton of minutes with Bass, Pierce & Terry (plus a still-getting-back-into-it Avery Bradley) during their prolonged shooting slumps.
This has almost certainly left many a potential assist as just that. Potential.
The number of assists didn't go down. The number of TOs went up.
That's not missed shots.
Well, that's why I qualified it with 'partly'.
His TO's per 40 minutes went up from 4.0 last year to 4.2 this year.
His Assists dropped from 12.7 down to 11.8. A drop of 0.9 assists per 40 minutes.
Where did it go?
Well, as others have mentioned, he has been taking more shots: His FGA went up from 11.7 up to 13.1 - an increase of 1.4.
The ratio of TOs to the total of Assists+FGA went from .164 last year to .169 this year. Hardly a dramatic shift.
I don't know off hand (though others do track this) how many 'assist attempts' he had that did not result in a made shot (solely because the shot missed). It is only logical that it had a small up-tick, though, given the higher miss rates (i.e. lower FG%) that his floor mates had compared to prior seasons.
If we included the number of 'assist attempts' in the denominator of the ratio, I suspect the ratio has hardly changed at all, or possibly gone down.
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But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
Probably at least partially reflective of the poor shooting of his teammates. Consider that Rondo has been on the floor a ton of minutes with Bass, Pierce & Terry (plus a still-getting-back-into-it Avery Bradley) during their prolonged shooting slumps.
This has almost certainly left many a potential assist as just that. Potential.
The number of assists didn't go down. The number of TOs went up.
That's not missed shots.
Missed shots would imply that more passes were needed to get the same number of assists.
Also consider that we usually start the season with a pretty set lineup and rotations and add in players in mid-season. His turnovers IMO tend to go up a little after the trades/buyout signings. This year we've been trying to integrate a lot of new people and we haven't had steady rotations all year.
To me, it looks like he was pressing on offense.
I agree. It looks, to you, like he was pressing on offense.
He was having a down year defensively.
Well, as I pointed out elsewhere, not when he was on the floor with the starters (99 DRtg). His DRtg was only really high in some lineups mixing in new guys.
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But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
Probably at least partially reflective of the poor shooting of his teammates. Consider that Rondo has been on the floor a ton of minutes with Bass, Pierce & Terry (plus a still-getting-back-into-it Avery Bradley) during their prolonged shooting slumps.
This has almost certainly left many a potential assist as just that. Potential.
The number of assists didn't go down. The number of TOs went up.
That's not missed shots.
Missed shots would imply that more passes were needed to get the same number of assists.
Also consider that we usually start the season with a pretty set lineup and rotations and add in players in mid-season. His turnovers IMO tend to go up a little after the trades/buyout signings. This year we've been trying to integrate a lot of new people and we haven't had steady rotations all year.
To me, it looks like he was pressing on offense.
I agree. It looks, to you, like he was pressing on offense.
He was having a down year defensively.
Well, as I pointed out elsewhere, not when he was on the floor with the starters (99 DRtg). His DRtg was only really high in some lineups mixing in new guys.
So you think we were seeing Rondo at his best this year?
I guess I just have a higher opinion on what he is capable and should be doing.
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somebody mentioned...giving Rondo the keys to the team went to his head...........I think there some truth to this , and Doc got sucked into handing the reins to Rondo an stay out of his way.
BAD. IDEA..........Rondo has screwed up the teams play, and not enough people are contributing when he is on the court.
Doc giving Rondo the keys to the team took us from being in a dogfight for the 8th seed to within a game of a trip to the finals. Rondo controlling the ball didn't just start, it's been going on for years and we've enjoyed quite a bit of success during that time.
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Sooner or later this team will stop over compensating for the loss of two players and return to their baseline play that they had the rest of this season. When that happens, we will start losing games.
Sorry people, its going to happen, we aren't going to go 46-0 without Rondo. I can't wait to see how its going to be Rondo's fault for the C's losing then. Wait and see. This winning streak will end and a tough stretch will come. Who's fault will the bad play of this team's be then?
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You're comparing stats of a full season to a stat of a half season. That doesn't make any sense
It does when the OP mention being 2nd best on team versus 2nd worst. It also makes sense when comparing being positive versus being negative. It is the magnitude that doesn't compare well when you decrease the # of games considered, but you could just normalize that by doing the stat as a per game stat.
Like I said before, if a team is being outscored, the player with the most minutes will likely be in the red for +/-. If a team is scoring more that opponents, the player with the most minutes will likely be in the black. So that stats are less surprising than one might think. Per minute +/- would help control for the fact that he was playing so many more minutes than teammates.
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Who's fault will the bad play of this team's be then?
If that happens probably Ainge, though Pierce is the other likely culprit (depending on his play).
Big test the next two weeks. Come on Cs.
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somebody mentioned...giving Rondo the keys to the team went to his head...........I think there some truth to this , and Doc got sucked into handing the reins to Rondo an stay out of his way.
BAD. IDEA..........Rondo has screwed up the teams play, and not enough people are contributing when he is on the court.
Doc giving Rondo the keys to the team took us from being in a dogfight for the 8th seed to within a game of a trip to the finals. Rondo controlling the ball didn't just start, it's been going on for years and we've enjoyed quite a bit of success during that time.
Yup and you could argue he had the keys to the team in 2010 when we were a game from winning the finals...both years I'm sure shaqattack wanted to blow it up and trade rondo early
This team in recent years was at it's best playing with rondo being "the head of the beast" as I've heard peers Lebron, Kobe, wade and others call him...
This year was having mixed results, sure...but shaqattack lives and judges game to game..so obviously by those standards we're better without rondo ::)
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Who's fault will the bad play of this team's be then?
If that happens probably Ainge, though Pierce is the other likely culprit (depending on his play).
Big test the next two weeks. Come on Cs.
Agreed. Btw the Lakers, Nuggets, and Bulls games, we're going to get a much better litmus test of this team going forward.
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Who's fault will the bad play of this team's be then?
If that happens probably Ainge, though Pierce is the other likely culprit (depending on his play).
Big test the next two weeks. Come on Cs.
Agreed. Btw the Lakers, Nuggets, and Bulls games, we're going to get a much better litmus test of this team going forward.
The Nuggs will be very hard, but even one win is good. Two wins is my hope. Three would be stupendous. None would mean a trade
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Who's fault will the bad play of this team's be then?
If that happens probably Ainge, though Pierce is the other likely culprit (depending on his play).
Big test the next two weeks. Come on Cs.
Agreed. Btw the Lakers, Nuggets, and Bulls games, we're going to get a much better litmus test of this team going forward.
The Nuggs will be very hard, but even one win is good. Two wins is my hope. Three would be stupendous. None would mean a trade
I think at this point, record will have very little to do with trades.
The level of offers is going to be the deciding factor.
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But his assist to TO ratio was worse.
Probably at least partially reflective of the poor shooting of his teammates. Consider that Rondo has been on the floor a ton of minutes with Bass, Pierce & Terry (plus a still-getting-back-into-it Avery Bradley) during their prolonged shooting slumps.
This has almost certainly left many a potential assist as just that. Potential.
The number of assists didn't go down. The number of TOs went up.
That's not missed shots.
Missed shots would imply that more passes were needed to get the same number of assists.
Also consider that we usually start the season with a pretty set lineup and rotations and add in players in mid-season. His turnovers IMO tend to go up a little after the trades/buyout signings. This year we've been trying to integrate a lot of new people and we haven't had steady rotations all year.
To me, it looks like he was pressing on offense.
I agree. It looks, to you, like he was pressing on offense.
He was having a down year defensively.
Well, as I pointed out elsewhere, not when he was on the floor with the starters (99 DRtg). His DRtg was only really high in some lineups mixing in new guys.
So you think we were seeing Rondo at his best this year?
I guess I just have a higher opinion on what he is capable and should be doing.
"at his best" is a subjective assessment. All we can have is opinions there.
The problem when trying to assess Rondo 'objectively' is that Rondo's style of play is so tightly intertwined with the rest of the team. His style of defense relies heavily on the help rotations of the bigs behind him. His offense depends on his teammates making shots.
With some diligence, you can pull out some tidbits that indicate that, yeah, Rondo was actually performing at a pretty high level all season. But, given the overall performance of the team in the first half, it is understandable that many fans may not share that view.
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You're comparing stats of a full season to a stat of a half season. That doesn't make any sense
It does when the OP mention being 2nd best on team versus 2nd worst. It also makes sense when comparing being positive versus being negative. It is the magnitude that doesn't compare well when you decrease the # of games considered, but you could just normalize that by doing the stat as a per game stat.
Like I said before, if a team is being outscored, the player with the most minutes will likely be in the red for +/-. If a team is scoring more that opponents, the player with the most minutes will likely be in the black. So that stats are less surprising than one might think. Per minute +/- would help control for the fact that he was playing so many more minutes than teammates.
Yes, as several have pointed out, the raw +/- is not a very useful stat.
A 'normalized' view of individual +/- can be found here:
http://www.82games.com/1213/1213BOS.HTM
where they have normalized per 48 minutes and accounted for on/off.
Given those corrections, Rondo ends up 3rd on the team with a 'Simple Rating' of +1.9 per 48 behind (naturally) Garnett (+4.5) and Pierce (+2.8).
(Varnado is listed as 1st on BOS, but obviously was only here for a cup of coffee)