CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: heyvik on January 16, 2013, 10:54:03 AM
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I was just wondering - I really do hope that the C's decide to trade Bass. He is really the only real option to trade that still gives the C's players the flexibility to remain in their current roles. I would opt to move Sullinger to the Starting lineup, which I think would be a seamless fit with little disruption.
However, I am concerned when we talk about the backup PF spot with a legit backup of a Timofey Mogov or Marcin Gortat coming in. Would it be Wilcox??? I think may be better at PF than a backup C on the second unit.
Thoughts?
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I think if we trade Bass, it will be for a starting big man. Which means that Sully would remain the primary backup big man, and Wilcox would slide in as the 4th big man.
But, in the playoffs, you would only play 3 big men, unless there is foul trouble anyways.
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I was just wondering - I really do hope that the C's decide to trade Bass. He is really the only real option to trade that still gives the C's players the flexibility to remain in their current roles. I would opt to move Sullinger to the Starting lineup, which I think would be a seamless fit with little disruption.
However, I am concerned when we talk about the backup PF spot with a legit backup of a Timofey Mogov or Marcin Gortat coming in. Would it be Wilcox??? I think may be better at PF than a backup C on the second unit.
Thoughts?
Apparently the perception that Bass is overpaid and useless trumps any actual roster consideration.
That, or people expect you can trade Bass for someone that's as good as him, AND a backup C.
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I think if we trade Bass, it will be for a starting big man. Which means that Sully would remain the primary backup big man, and Wilcox would slide in as the 4th big man.
But, in the playoffs, you would only play 3 big men, unless there is foul trouble anyways.
So you want to trade a starting big man for a starting big man (who should hopefully be a better one). Take a moment to step back and assess how ridiculous the notion that this may happen is.
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Sully.
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I think if we trade Bass, it will be for a starting big man. Which means that Sully would remain the primary backup big man, and Wilcox would slide in as the 4th big man.
But, in the playoffs, you would only play 3 big men, unless there is foul trouble anyways.
So you want to trade a starting big man for a starting big man (who should hopefully be a better one). Take a moment to step back and assess how ridiculous the notion that this may happen is.
You trade him to get someone who's a better fit, particularly with Sully. Don't see a problem with the logic.
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What better fit, isn't just a better player than Bass though?
Plus fitting with Sullinger isn't the issue, the issue is replacing KG's ability to anchor the defense when he's off the court.
How many guys can do that are available for Bass?
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I think if we trade Bass, it will be for a starting big man. Which means that Sully would remain the primary backup big man, and Wilcox would slide in as the 4th big man.
But, in the playoffs, you would only play 3 big men, unless there is foul trouble anyways.
Yeah. If we got Gortat or Lopez they would be starting in my eyes. Sully will be our back up 4 for the remainder of the year.
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I think if we trade Bass, it will be for a starting big man. Which means that Sully would remain the primary backup big man, and Wilcox would slide in as the 4th big man.
But, in the playoffs, you would only play 3 big men, unless there is foul trouble anyways.
So you want to trade a starting big man for a starting big man (who should hopefully be a better one). Take a moment to step back and assess how ridiculous the notion that this may happen is.
You trade him to get someone who's a better fit, particularly with Sully. Don't see a problem with the logic.
Bass is an excellent fit with Garnett. He's a patently bad fit with Sullinger because neither blocks shots, and because both are 6'9 or shorter.
I'd be extremely surprised if someone who fits better with Sullinger, just as well with Garnett, and is starting caliber is available in trade.
And that's before we include any long-term roster considerations.
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I think if we trade Bass, it will be for a starting big man. Which means that Sully would remain the primary backup big man, and Wilcox would slide in as the 4th big man.
But, in the playoffs, you would only play 3 big men, unless there is foul trouble anyways.
So you want to trade a starting big man for a starting big man (who should hopefully be a better one). Take a moment to step back and assess how ridiculous the notion that this may happen is.
You trade him to get someone who's a better fit, particularly with Sully. Don't see a problem with the logic.
Bass is an excellent fit with Garnett. He's a patently bad fit with Sullinger because neither blocks shots, and because both are 6'9 or shorter.
I'd be extremely surprised if someone who fits better with Sullinger, just as well with Garnett, and is starting caliber is available in trade.
And that's before we include any long-term roster considerations.
I hear the Lakers are looking for a bag of beans for Gasol. ;)
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I think if we trade Bass, it will be for a starting big man. Which means that Sully would remain the primary backup big man, and Wilcox would slide in as the 4th big man.
But, in the playoffs, you would only play 3 big men, unless there is foul trouble anyways.
So you want to trade a starting big man for a starting big man (who should hopefully be a better one). Take a moment to step back and assess how ridiculous the notion that this may happen is.
You trade him to get someone who's a better fit, particularly with Sully. Don't see a problem with the logic.
Bass is an excellent fit with Garnett. He's a patently bad fit with Sullinger because neither blocks shots, and because both are 6'9 or shorter.
I'd be extremely surprised if someone who fits better with Sullinger, just as well with Garnett, and is starting caliber is available in trade.
And that's before we include any long-term roster considerations.
Garnett is an excellent fit for just about anyone in the league. I've never been a fan of Bass with our starters regardless. Hurts us as often as he helps us I'd say.
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What better fit, isn't just a better player than Bass though?
Plus fitting with Sullinger isn't the issue, the issue is replacing KG's ability to anchor the defense when he's off the court.
How many guys can do that are available for Bass?
Who says Bass would be traded straight-up to accomplish this? I agree that Bass is the most likely to go, but I think a 1-for-1 deal is not the likelihood.
Looking at these things in a vacuum rarely makes much sense.
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What better fit, isn't just a better player than Bass though?
Plus fitting with Sullinger isn't the issue, the issue is replacing KG's ability to anchor the defense when he's off the court.
How many guys can do that are available for Bass?
Who says Bass would be traded straight-up to accomplish this? I agree that Bass is the most likely to go, but I think a 1-for-1 deal is not the likelihood.
Looking at these things in a vacuum rarely makes much sense.
Bass + pick? Bass + Fab Melo? Bass + Terry?
Upgrading Bass would be great, he's our weakest starter, I just think its difficult to do.
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I think if we trade Bass, it will be for a starting big man. Which means that Sully would remain the primary backup big man, and Wilcox would slide in as the 4th big man.
But, in the playoffs, you would only play 3 big men, unless there is foul trouble anyways.
So you want to trade a starting big man for a starting big man (who should hopefully be a better one). Take a moment to step back and assess how ridiculous the notion that this may happen is.
The only wrong part about this post is the part that mentions Bass as a starting big man. He isn't. That was just out of desperation that Bass is a starter. He is at most on par with Big Baby, who wasn't starting, either.
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What better fit, isn't just a better player than Bass though?
Plus fitting with Sullinger isn't the issue, the issue is replacing KG's ability to anchor the defense when he's off the court.
How many guys can do that are available for Bass?
Who says Bass would be traded straight-up to accomplish this? I agree that Bass is the most likely to go, but I think a 1-for-1 deal is not the likelihood.
Looking at these things in a vacuum rarely makes much sense.
So packaging Bass with Lee/Terry/Green then? What are you going to get to match salaries (that would be $12 million total at least). I don't expect anyone would be duped into giving us anything for Melo's "great upside potential" at this point.
People just have to come to terms with the fact that Bass is one of those players who is, in relative terms, considerably more valuable to our team than to any potential trading partner (skill, positional need, salary and cap situation considered), which makes him very hard to trade without getting fleeced.
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I think if we trade Bass, it will be for a starting big man. Which means that Sully would remain the primary backup big man, and Wilcox would slide in as the 4th big man.
But, in the playoffs, you would only play 3 big men, unless there is foul trouble anyways.
So you want to trade a starting big man for a starting big man (who should hopefully be a better one). Take a moment to step back and assess how ridiculous the notion that this may happen is.
The only wrong part about this post is the part that mentions Bass as a starting big man. He isn't. That was just out of desperation that Bass is a starter. He is at most on part with Big Baby, who wasn't starting, either.
No, it wasn't. It is (and was last season) because that was giving you best chance to win.
Or you can argue that Avery Bradley became a starter from desperation too, just because Ray Allen was no longer fit for the job.
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If Bass was to go it would be for a 6'10" or bigger c/pf. We would have sully, wilcox, kg and green to play pf. And before anyone says Green isn't a pg etc etc he would only be there are end of games which we've seen lately.
Are need is size, if we get a gortat or insert name that would be him, kg, wilcox and collins. good enough rotation
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If Bass was to go it would be for a 6'10" or bigger c/pf. We would have sully, wilcox, kg and green to play pf. And before anyone says Green isn't a pg etc etc he would only be there are end of games which we've seen lately.
Are need is size, if we get a gortat or insert name that would be him, kg, wilcox and collins. good enough rotation
Green definitely isn't a PG.
Garnett is a center.
Wilcox is... pretty worthless at this stage.
Any other questions? :)
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I can't believe how horrible some of you think Bass is. He plays respectable defense. This year his shooting has been down but recently it has definitely been on the way back. When he is on, he is a PF with a top of the line mid range game, athletic and can run, and he hits free throws at 85% or so. He is signed to a three year deal at not unreasonable money. He'd have a lot of value to a lot of teams, especially faster paced teams.
Meanwhile, there are plenty of bigs in the final years of their contract, who's teams have either no shot of making the playoffs or who are stuck behind younger or more talented big men and not getting playing time who have almost no value to their current team.
Now there may not be a lot of situations where teams and players match up 1 for 1, but there are a lot of situations where three teams might match up and you have teams out there like Dallas who are ready and willing to deal.
Heck every year reasonably talented big men, like Diaw last year, get bought out and sent away with the team cutting him getting only a tiny bit of salary relief as compensation.
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No, it wasn't. It is (and was last season) because that was giving you best chance to win.
Or you can argue that Avery Bradley became a starter from desperation too, just because Ray Allen was no longer fit for the job.
We simply didn't have any other PF to play. KG was moved to C, because we simply didn't have any other C to play.
It was our best and also, our sole chance.
Ray moved to the bench to give us a scoring punch and tolerate the dropoff better, so, I don't see a similarity. It's like Kawhi Leonard starting over Manu Ginobili, or Thabo Sefolosha over James Harden.
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If Bass was to go it would be for a 6'10" or bigger c/pf. We would have sully, wilcox, kg and green to play pf. And before anyone says Green isn't a pg etc etc he would only be there are end of games which we've seen lately.
Are need is size, if we get a gortat or insert name that would be him, kg, wilcox and collins. good enough rotation
Green definitely isn't a PG.
Garnett is a center.
Wilcox is... pretty worthless at this stage.
Any other questions? :)
funny, a mistype brings that response ::)
pf=power forward
wilcox at the beginning of season was playing better than all bigs but kg
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wilcox at the beginning of season was playing better than all bigs but kg
Yes, if you define "playing" as "converting wide open dunks and layups". Otherwise that statement is pretty ridiculous, as poor as Bass and Sullinger have been playing.
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Wilcox led the team in rebounds bouncing off his hands on a per minute basis though!
I don't think he's worthless, though he was definitely a one trick offensive backup.
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I don't think he's worthless, though he was definitely a one trick offensive backup.
Yes, I can agree with this. Great for a change of pace plug when you need someone to run up and down with Rondo and give you a couple of loud dunks. A liability when he has to defend someone bigger than him, or when the offense slows down.
Shouldn't be higher than 4th on your big man depth chart -- preferably fifth.
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A mish-mosh of Bass/KG/Sully/Wilcox/Collins would become a mish-mosh of ???/KG/Sully/Wilcox/Collins.
There is NO way Bass gets traded in a one-for-one deal for another PF. Bass fits our squad better than any incoming PF with matching #s and contract. There would be no improvement. The team would simply have to waste time teaching another player.
If Bass gets traded one-for-one (which is still doubtful), it will be for a C.
Depending on the quality of this C, either KG will become the starting PF (with Sully as backup) or the new C will come in as a backup for KG at C, which means we have an issue at PF.
Sully could start at PF based on fit and talent, but we need his energy off the bench and we need to limit his fouls. He's still not ready for 30+ minutes per night. He'll foul out every other game.
Trading Bass straight-up for another PF won't work. Trading him for a starting C works if we move KG to PF. Trading Bass for a backup C throws everything out of whack, as Sully cannot pick up all of Bass' minutes and Wilcox won't be a great backup at PF.
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What better fit, isn't just a better player than Bass though?
Plus fitting with Sullinger isn't the issue, the issue is replacing KG's ability to anchor the defense when he's off the court.
How many guys can do that are available for Bass?
Who says Bass would be traded straight-up to accomplish this? I agree that Bass is the most likely to go, but I think a 1-for-1 deal is not the likelihood.
Looking at these things in a vacuum rarely makes much sense.
Bass + pick? Bass + Fab Melo? Bass + Terry?
Upgrading Bass would be great, he's our weakest starter, I just think its difficult to do.
All possibilities. Or combinations thereof. I could certainly see the Cs combining Bass with a guard (likely Terry) and a pick for a player or players totaling $10-12mil.
Could also be that we take back a player a team wants out of to get one who is a better defender or fit at the 4 or 5.
Just saying this notion of trading Bass for a better Bass straight up is generally absurd. It would need to be a larger deal or include incentives. Ainge has proven to be pretty creative before, I'd imagine he'll have to be again to shed Bass anyway.
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I don't expect Bass to be traded. His contract makes things pretty difficult.
I think the C's best chance at moving Bass is to a team that is desperate for a big man (of any ilk). Someone who will probably be offering a perimeter player rather someone who will offer a center or kind for kind power forward. Since Boston isn't in the market for a perimeter player, I think their options will be extremely limited in trying to trade Bass. Hence, the low to non-existent expectations.
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The best possible outcome of trading Bass would be aquiring Milsap.
Bass, Melo and picks for Milsap?
I highly doubt Bass has anywhere near enough value to net us a center who is capable of starting. At this point, I'd prefer to keep our guard rotation as is.
I'd also prefer to keep Sully in his bench role. Starting him might be detrimental, given his propensity to foul.
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Sullinger, I would guess. Bass will be traded for a big if he is traded.
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I think if we trade Bass, it will be for a starting big man. Which means that Sully would remain the primary backup big man, and Wilcox would slide in as the 4th big man.
But, in the playoffs, you would only play 3 big men, unless there is foul trouble anyways.
I agree. A player such as Mozgov or Gortat would likely start at center, moving KG to the starting power forward, with Sully still coming off the bench at PF, and Wilcox off the bench at C. Then we'd still have Collins as an emergency/situational big (unless he's part of any trade), and the Cs may also end up with another big, either a free agent or buyout guy, or as an extra man in a trade (example: a trade for Mozgov could also net the Cs Anthony Randolph). Either way, we end up with a solid top 4 bigs, with one or two "break in case of emergency" guys.
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If Bass goes out, it's likely for a center that allows KG to slide back to starting PF. I'd think that Sully would remain the backup PF with Wilcox/Collins backing up center.
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I think if we trade Bass, it will be for a starting big man. Which means that Sully would remain the primary backup big man, and Wilcox would slide in as the 4th big man.
But, in the playoffs, you would only play 3 big men, unless there is foul trouble anyways.
So you want to trade a starting big man for a starting big man (who should hopefully be a better one). Take a moment to step back and assess how ridiculous the notion that this may happen is.
Wait what? No one said it would be a straight up trade. The C's would have to send more assets, whether it is young players, draft picks, or maybe one of their guards.
Of course no one is going to trade a better player for a lesser one, but that is why there are multi-player trades in the NBA.
I think the insane trade ideas might be getting to you.
edit: not to mention, I never said it was likely Bass would be traded. I was just responding to the scenario laid forth by the OP, that he WAS traded. And I think if he is traded, it will only be as part of a package for an upgrade up front.
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I think if we trade Bass, it will be for a starting big man. Which means that Sully would remain the primary backup big man, and Wilcox would slide in as the 4th big man.
But, in the playoffs, you would only play 3 big men, unless there is foul trouble anyways.
I agree. A player such as Mozgov or Gortat would likely start at center, moving KG to the starting power forward, with Sully still coming off the bench at PF, and Wilcox off the bench at C. Then we'd still have Collins as an emergency/situational big (unless he's part of any trade), and the Cs may also end up with another big, either a free agent or buyout guy, or as an extra man in a trade (example: a trade for Mozgov could also net the Cs Anthony Randolph). Either way, we end up with a solid top 4 bigs, with one or two "break in case of emergency" guys.
Starting Mozgov, you must be kidding. That, coupled with KG move to PF would be a rarely spectacular loss-loss move.
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I don't think he's worthless, though he was definitely a one trick offensive backup.
Yes, I can agree with this. Great for a change of pace plug when you need someone to run up and down with Rondo and give you a couple of loud dunks. A liability when he has to defend someone bigger than him, or when the offense slows down.
Shouldn't be higher than 4th on your big man depth chart -- preferably fifth.
I'm happy with wilcox running the floor, if he can tire one starter a bit for end of a game its a plus, set good screens and defend as best he can. Our lower chart guys you can't ask for much, we have such depth I'd like to see our main guys get rest while other teams works against our bench. Come 4th quarter we have a rested rr, kg, pp etc
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wilcox at the beginning of season was playing better than all bigs but kg
Yes, if you define "playing" as "converting wide open dunks and layups". Otherwise that statement is pretty ridiculous, as poor as Bass and Sullinger have been playing.
Don't you have to give him credit for running the floor and creating those wide open dunks and lay ups? If it wasn't a legit skill you would see Bass with a lot more open opportunities than he got.
For those of you that like advanced statistics Wilcox leads the team in points per 100 possessions on offense accord to basketball reference.
As far as trading Bass, the only way I do that is for a starting center like Gortat, Jefferson, Cousins or Nene ( think I'm missing someone but I can't figure it out now). Any deal in which Bass gets sent out for one of these guys will probably include Terry or Lee though.
With how we are playing now and the pieces we have in place for the future, I think it would be foolish to make any trade that has us giving up a rotation player, for someone who isn't an upgrade.
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wilcox at the beginning of season was playing better than all bigs but kg
Yes, if you define "playing" as "converting wide open dunks and layups". Otherwise that statement is pretty ridiculous, as poor as Bass and Sullinger have been playing.
Don't you have to give him credit for running the floor and creating those wide open dunks and lay ups? If it wasn't a legit skill you would see Bass with a lot more open opportunities than he got.
It's a legit skill. But it's also one skill, and in the grand scheme of things not a very important one at all. I'd rank rebounding, interior defense, shot blocking, post-up game, and even midrange jump shot higher than running the floor.
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wilcox at the beginning of season was playing better than all bigs but kg
Yes, if you define "playing" as "converting wide open dunks and layups". Otherwise that statement is pretty ridiculous, as poor as Bass and Sullinger have been playing.
Don't you have to give him credit for running the floor and creating those wide open dunks and lay ups? If it wasn't a legit skill you would see Bass with a lot more open opportunities than he got.
It's a legit skill. But it's also one skill, and in the grand scheme of things not a very important one at all. I'd rank rebounding, interior defense, shot blocking, post-up game, and even midrange jump shot higher than running the floor.
agreed which is why collins :-\ is last on depth chart
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I believe that if Bass is traded the Cs will be bringing in another big who fits better with Sully. KG, Sully will each probably play around 30 min a game with new guy getting around 25 and Wilcox/Collins getting the remaining 13 depending on matchups.
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I think if we trade Bass, it will be for a starting big man. Which means that Sully would remain the primary backup big man, and Wilcox would slide in as the 4th big man.
But, in the playoffs, you would only play 3 big men, unless there is foul trouble anyways.
This. Didn't read OP's post.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qasThpowayo/UKAjzpgYepI/AAAAAAAABWk/f-kv8IdatCo/s1600/didn%2527t+read+lol+19.gif)
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Business as usual. Fans willing to trade a guy they don't like for someone they do like. And always wanting to trade only expendable guys. Too bad the other teams are not in on it just to help the Celtics.
Right now, Bass is okay but as said, if you want to trade him for a bigger player, then expect to get a worser bigger player. Someone like a Ryan Hollins for example. Size is at a premium and if you trade smaller for bigger, you should expect less talented as well.
In terms of Terry, Melo (and others mentioned), really difficult to tell if they have much of any value at all right now.
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wilcox at the beginning of season was playing better than all bigs but kg
Yes, if you define "playing" as "converting wide open dunks and layups". Otherwise that statement is pretty ridiculous, as poor as Bass and Sullinger have been playing.
Don't you have to give him credit for running the floor and creating those wide open dunks and lay ups? If it wasn't a legit skill you would see Bass with a lot more open opportunities than he got.
It's a legit skill. But it's also one skill, and in the grand scheme of things not a very important one at all. I'd rank rebounding, interior defense, shot blocking, post-up game, and even midrange jump shot higher than running the floor.
Doesn't it matter the degree to which he's better than others at running the floor? Collins is a better, rebounder, interrior defender, and shot blocker than Wilcox but I think Wilcox is a huge upgrade in the grand scheme of things.
With Wilcox on the court the Celtics are scoring 125 points per 100 possessions!
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wilcox at the beginning of season was playing better than all bigs but kg
Yes, if you define "playing" as "converting wide open dunks and layups". Otherwise that statement is pretty ridiculous, as poor as Bass and Sullinger have been playing.
Don't you have to give him credit for running the floor and creating those wide open dunks and lay ups? If it wasn't a legit skill you would see Bass with a lot more open opportunities than he got.
It's a legit skill. But it's also one skill, and in the grand scheme of things not a very important one at all. I'd rank rebounding, interior defense, shot blocking, post-up game, and even midrange jump shot higher than running the floor.
Doesn't it matter the degree to which he's better than others at running the floor? Collins is a better, rebounder, interrior defender, and shot blocker than Wilcox but I think Wilcox is a huge upgrade in the grand scheme of things.
With Wilcox on the court the Celtics are scoring 125 points per 100 possessions!
Yes, and you should also know that Jarvis Varnado leads the team in net production difference (own vs opp). Stats do you very little good when you don't know how to use them (in case you missed the point: Wilcox has played too little for any sort of reasonable assessment to be made; not to mention that your assertion doesn't seem to be true -- with Wilcox we're scoring 108 points per 100 possessions).
Also, you don't seem to quite know our players very well. Collins is not a better rebounder or shot blocker than Wilcox, as poor as Wilcox is. He may be a better team and inferior defender, but I'm not advocating playing Collins over Wilcox. In fact, if Wilcox is fifth in the depth chart, Collins should probably be sixth.