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Around the League => Around the NBA => Topic started by: KGs Knee on November 01, 2012, 12:15:34 PM

Title: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: KGs Knee on November 01, 2012, 12:15:34 PM
I would have preferred OKC to have paid up.  When you have those talented players, buck up and spend.  Ownership like this bothers me.  Glad Bostons is not.

That said, I wonder if OKC having to trade someone, if they would have been better off trading Westbrook?

Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Rondo2287 on November 01, 2012, 12:19:59 PM
I would have preferred OKC to have paid up.  When you have those talented players, buck up and spend.  Ownership like this bothers me.  Glad Bostons is not.

That said, I wonder if OKC having to trade someone, if they would have been better off trading Westbrook?

I don't think this wsa as much an ownership decision as it was a management decision
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: KGs Knee on November 01, 2012, 12:23:15 PM
I'm pretty sure I heard somewhere ownership has stated they refuse to go way into the tax.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: AshyLarry on November 01, 2012, 12:23:21 PM
Matters what PG they could have gotten back. If not, Eric Maynor and Harden starting wouldn't be too grand.

Harden still hasn't been able to show all he's got in that 6th man role in OKC. He's still growing, and he's already a better pg than Westbrook, when it comes to being a floor general.

He may be a better scorer, or more of a "franchise player," you never know. But at this point, Westbrook was already signed, and he didn't stink it up in the finals, at least as much as Harden.

Biggest factor, though, is the need for an athletic, all star pg in the league as of now.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: scaryjerry on November 01, 2012, 12:25:03 PM
They would've been better off trading us harden instead of green a few years back...mua haha  ;D..but in all seriousness I think they made the right decision for them locking up westbrook over harden even if I was starting a franchise it'd be close
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: KGs Knee on November 01, 2012, 12:26:58 PM
I believe OKC would be better off with a solid but not spectacular passing PG with Harden and Durant running the wings.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: kozlodoev on November 01, 2012, 12:32:32 PM
I would have preferred OKC to have paid up.  When you have those talented players, buck up and spend.  Ownership like this bothers me.  Glad Bostons is not.
Well, that's what happens with teams in the middle of nowhere. Consider yourself lucky you live in a major sports hub.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: KGs Knee on November 01, 2012, 12:46:34 PM
Clay Bennett has money.  He could easily afford to pay for an expensive roster when he has the players to justify it.

Have to pick and choose your spots to spend, as a small market team.  This would have been one of those spots.

When owners choose profits over talent, I lose respect for them.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 01, 2012, 12:48:35 PM
I thought of this , and from a distance as a casual watcher , I would have kept Hardin and dumped westbrook 

Best I remember  Westbrook was horrible against the HEAT I think? OKC needed a real point guard in that series, westbrook is too run and gun for me.

just not a westbrook fan at all. 
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Who on November 01, 2012, 01:16:32 PM
Who could they have gotten for Westbrook in a trade?

Dwight Howard seems the obvious choice. Same problem, even more so since Dwight earns more than Westbrook, in keeping Ibaka + Harden though.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: CelticG1 on November 01, 2012, 01:20:32 PM
I thought of this , and from a distance as a casual watcher , I would have kept Hardin and dumped westbrook 

Best I remember  Westbrook was horrible against the HEAT I think? OKC needed a real point guard in that series, westbrook is too run and gun for me.

just not a westbrook fan at all.

I thought it was Harden who struggled mightily and couldn't stay out of foul trouble?
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Moranis on November 01, 2012, 01:39:13 PM
Westbrook is a borderline top ten player in the league.  Harden is a borderline top thirty player in the league.  The correct decision was made.  Period.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Moranis on November 01, 2012, 01:41:47 PM
I would have preferred OKC to have paid up.  When you have those talented players, buck up and spend.  Ownership like this bothers me.  Glad Bostons is not.

That said, I wonder if OKC having to trade someone, if they would have been better off trading Westbrook?
You do realize that Oklahoma City's total payroll is as much as Boston's is this year and pretty much every year going forward.  Thus, I'm confused by your statements.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Rondo2287 on November 01, 2012, 01:43:01 PM
I would have preferred OKC to have paid up.  When you have those talented players, buck up and spend.  Ownership like this bothers me.  Glad Bostons is not.

That said, I wonder if OKC having to trade someone, if they would have been better off trading Westbrook?
You do realize that Oklahoma City's total payroll is as much as Boston's is this year and pretty much every year going forward.  Thus, I'm confused by your statements.

Exactly, thats why i said before, if anything he should be mad at management for cap issues, not at ownership for not paying. 
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Yoki_IsTheName on November 01, 2012, 02:43:21 PM
I would have preferred OKC to have paid up.  When you have those talented players, buck up and spend.  Ownership like this bothers me.  Glad Bostons is not.

That said, I wonder if OKC having to trade someone, if they would have been better off trading Westbrook?
You do realize that Oklahoma City's total payroll is as much as Boston's is this year and pretty much every year going forward.  Thus, I'm confused by your statements.

Exactly, thats why i said before, if anything he should be mad at management for cap issues, not at ownership for not paying.

I don't think it's the cap issues at all this is all about money.

OKC is still a small market team. Their revenue is not as much as what Boston makes, and that's why they could not pay (or chose not) the luxury tax.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: celtsfan84 on November 01, 2012, 03:02:27 PM
I would have preferred OKC to have paid up.  When you have those talented players, buck up and spend.  Ownership like this bothers me.  Glad Bostons is not.

That said, I wonder if OKC having to trade someone, if they would have been better off trading Westbrook?
You do realize that Oklahoma City's total payroll is as much as Boston's is this year and pretty much every year going forward.  Thus, I'm confused by your statements.

Exactly, thats why i said before, if anything he should be mad at management for cap issues, not at ownership for not paying.

I don't think it's the cap issues at all this is all about money.

OKC is still a small market team. Their revenue is not as much as what Boston makes, and that's why they could not pay (or chose not) the luxury tax.

Which makes sense until you realize 1) they posted higher operating income than the Celtics each of the last two years and similar three years ago (according to Forbes), 2) the small market Spurs have paid the tax before to build a contender, and 3) the team was hijacked from a market roughly the same size as Boston.

It is just a case of the ownership valuing profits over winning.  They'll still sell out the building and get the same sponsorships etc... without paying Harden big money.

I thought of this , and from a distance as a casual watcher , I would have kept Hardin and dumped westbrook 

Best I remember  Westbrook was horrible against the HEAT I think? OKC needed a real point guard in that series, westbrook is too run and gun for me.

just not a westbrook fan at all. 

Couldn't be more wrong.  Westbrook played great against the HEAT last year, Harden stunk.  I wouldn't base the future of my franchise on decisions based off of one series, but it is worth pointing it that this couldn't be more wrong.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Moranis on November 01, 2012, 03:07:03 PM
I would have preferred OKC to have paid up.  When you have those talented players, buck up and spend.  Ownership like this bothers me.  Glad Bostons is not.

That said, I wonder if OKC having to trade someone, if they would have been better off trading Westbrook?
You do realize that Oklahoma City's total payroll is as much as Boston's is this year and pretty much every year going forward.  Thus, I'm confused by your statements.

Exactly, thats why i said before, if anything he should be mad at management for cap issues, not at ownership for not paying.

I don't think it's the cap issues at all this is all about money.

OKC is still a small market team. Their revenue is not as much as what Boston makes, and that's why they could not pay (or chose not) the luxury tax.

Which makes sense until you realize 1) they posted higher operating income than the Celtics each of the last two years and similar three years ago (according to Forbes), 2) the small market Spurs have paid the tax before to build a contender, and 3) the team was hijacked from a market roughly the same size as Boston.

It is just a case of the ownership valuing profits over winning.  They'll still sell out the building and get the same sponsorships etc... without paying Harden big money.

I thought of this , and from a distance as a casual watcher , I would have kept Hardin and dumped westbrook 

Best I remember  Westbrook was horrible against the HEAT I think? OKC needed a real point guard in that series, westbrook is too run and gun for me.

just not a westbrook fan at all. 

Couldn't be more wrong.  Westbrook played great against the HEAT last year, Harden stunk.  I wouldn't base the future of my franchise on decisions based off of one series, but it is worth pointing it that this couldn't be more wrong.
But your premise is wrong.  Oklahoma City has a higher payroll than Boston.  This isn't a case about OKC not spending money or refusing to spend money, this is a case of OKC not spending money like the Lakers or Knicks, the only two teams in the league that can actually spend money like they do. 
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Fafnir on November 01, 2012, 03:10:01 PM
Who could they have gotten for Westbrook in a trade?

Dwight Howard seems the obvious choice. Same problem, even more so since Dwight earns more than Westbrook, in keeping Ibaka + Harden though.
Howards' the only guy who'd get OKC to pull the trigger to move Westbrook.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: celtsfan84 on November 01, 2012, 03:10:39 PM
I would have preferred OKC to have paid up.  When you have those talented players, buck up and spend.  Ownership like this bothers me.  Glad Bostons is not.

That said, I wonder if OKC having to trade someone, if they would have been better off trading Westbrook?
You do realize that Oklahoma City's total payroll is as much as Boston's is this year and pretty much every year going forward.  Thus, I'm confused by your statements.

Exactly, thats why i said before, if anything he should be mad at management for cap issues, not at ownership for not paying.

I don't think it's the cap issues at all this is all about money.

OKC is still a small market team. Their revenue is not as much as what Boston makes, and that's why they could not pay (or chose not) the luxury tax.

Which makes sense until you realize 1) they posted higher operating income than the Celtics each of the last two years and similar three years ago (according to Forbes), 2) the small market Spurs have paid the tax before to build a contender, and 3) the team was hijacked from a market roughly the same size as Boston.

It is just a case of the ownership valuing profits over winning.  They'll still sell out the building and get the same sponsorships etc... without paying Harden big money.

I thought of this , and from a distance as a casual watcher , I would have kept Hardin and dumped westbrook 

Best I remember  Westbrook was horrible against the HEAT I think? OKC needed a real point guard in that series, westbrook is too run and gun for me.

just not a westbrook fan at all. 

Couldn't be more wrong.  Westbrook played great against the HEAT last year, Harden stunk.  I wouldn't base the future of my franchise on decisions based off of one series, but it is worth pointing it that this couldn't be more wrong.
But your premise is wrong.  Oklahoma City has a higher payroll than Boston.  This isn't a case about OKC not spending money or refusing to spend money, this is a case of OKC not spending money like the Lakers or Knicks, the only two teams in the league that can actually spend money like they do.

Your conclusion from my premise is wrong.  There were multiple remedies to avoid having a payroll like the Lakers.  Saying the Lakers and Knicks are the only two teams that can heavily spend is factually inaccurate, and that wasn't my conclusion anyway.  Look at the payroll commitments of the Nets and HEAT.

Regardless, they've saved boatloads of cash on salaries pretty much since Durant was drafted.  Paying the piper for a couple of years to keep together a contender would've impoverished nobody.  What were their salary commitments in 2008? 2009? 2010? I'm not crying a river for OKC's finances.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: snively on November 01, 2012, 03:18:33 PM
Who could they have gotten for Westbrook in a trade?

Dwight Howard seems the obvious choice. Same problem, even more so since Dwight earns more than Westbrook, in keeping Ibaka + Harden though.

How about something like Westbrook for Mo Williams, Alec Burks, Enes Kanter and the picks Utah owns (their own and Golden State's)? Or maybe Minnesota for Rubio, Ridnour, Derrick Williams and future picks?  Or Charlotte with Ben Gordon, MKG?  Or Toronto, pre-Lowry, for Calderon, Jonas V and their lotto pick?

If I were in their shoes, I would have preferred to move Westbrook than Harden.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Roy H. on November 01, 2012, 03:29:43 PM
I think they would have been better off amnestying Perk and/or re-signing Harden over Ibaka.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: angryguy77 on November 01, 2012, 03:31:56 PM
Why? He played a significant part during their run to the finals. Trading him wouldn't make sense unless they were to get a top tier pg.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: xmuscularghandix on November 01, 2012, 04:16:44 PM
Yes. Durant would be better off alongside Harden AND a pass first PG with a consistent outside shot.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: SHAQATTACK on November 01, 2012, 04:34:51 PM
I thought of this , and from a distance as a casual watcher , I would have kept Hardin and dumped westbrook 

Best I remember  Westbrook was horrible against the HEAT I think? OKC needed a real point guard in that series, westbrook is too run and gun for me.

just not a westbrook fan at all.

I thought it was Harden who struggled mightily and couldn't stay out of foul trouble?

Yup ...could have been, I thought Westbrook was in the first game at Miami ??? , I don't remeber OKC looking like OKC at all in that series. Now I'm confused . ;D
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Moranis on November 01, 2012, 04:50:58 PM
I thought of this , and from a distance as a casual watcher , I would have kept Hardin and dumped westbrook 

Best I remember  Westbrook was horrible against the HEAT I think? OKC needed a real point guard in that series, westbrook is too run and gun for me.

just not a westbrook fan at all.

I thought it was Harden who struggled mightily and couldn't stay out of foul trouble?

Yup ...could have been, I thought Westbrook was in the first game at Miami ??? , I don't remeber OKC looking like OKC at all in that series. Now I'm confused . ;D
Westbrook NBA Finals lines
game 1 - 27p, 11a, 8r
game 2 - 27, 7, 8 (bad shooting night)
game 3 - 19, 4, 5
game 4 - 43, 5, 7
game 5 - 19, 6, 4 (terrible shooting night)

Pretty solid series overall for Westbrook.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: CelticSooner on November 01, 2012, 05:17:27 PM
No.

They need Westbrook but they also need Harden. Should have bitten the bullet for a few years while the iron is hot. Harden's value would have only gotten higher. Never a fan of owners going cheap.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: pearljammer10 on November 01, 2012, 05:48:46 PM
I guess it depends on what could have been given in return. However, Westbrook is much more important to the team than Harden. Im not saying Harden is replaceable but couldn't Kevin Martin fill the void that Harden leaves behind easier than someone could fill in for Westbrook at point guard? I think so.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: action781 on November 01, 2012, 07:03:13 PM
Who could they have gotten for Westbrook in a trade?

Dwight Howard seems the obvious choice. Same problem, even more so since Dwight earns more than Westbrook, in keeping Ibaka + Harden though.
Howards' the only guy who'd get OKC to pull the trigger to move Westbrook.

Nelson + Howard for Westbrook + Perkins?

Orlando would take it.  OKC would need an extension from Dwight.  Nelson, Thabo, Durant, Ibaka, and Howard with Harden off the bench would make a nasty team.

OKC is paying tax, but they are winning titles.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: nostar on November 01, 2012, 07:11:17 PM
No.

They need Westbrook but they also need Harden. Should have bitten the bullet for a few years while the iron is hot. Harden's value would have only gotten higher. Never a fan of owners going cheap.

I'm honestly not sure they would have traded Harden except they got exceptional value from him.


Pick-wise that is almost exactly what the Rams got from the Redskins for RG3. I think these scenarios are pretty similar. Both teams got really good deals. Obviously Harden is a better player but (including Lamb) 3 first rounders, a 2nd rounder and Kevin Martin is awfully good value for a guy who wants 16M at the conclusion of the season.

I personally think Houston overpaid for Harden despite his monster performance against the Pistons the other night. Houston has been overpaying guys so their fan base doesn't leave; see Lin and Asik. People forget Houston is the 4th largest city in America and they have a really great market for endorsement deals. I'm kind of surprised Dwight didn't push to go there as much as they wanted him.

How about something like Westbrook for Mo Williams, Alec Burks, Enes Kanter and the picks Utah owns (their own and Golden State's)?

Mo is on his way down and the other guys are unproven. Westbrook is a top 5 player by his stats last season.

Quote
Or maybe Minnesota for Rubio, Ridnour, Derrick Williams and future picks?
That is a really interesting trade for both teams but I doubt Minny lets Rubio go before his rookie deal is over. Maybe if he's an injury mess.

Quote
Or Charlotte with Ben Gordon, MKG?

You would have to pay for a team to take on Ben Gorden, no way he goes in a deal for Westbrook. If MKG starts looking like MJ then maybe...then again you'd think MJ would notice that :)

Quote
Or Toronto, pre-Lowry, for Calderon, Jonas V and their lotto pick?
Still not value for Westbrook. I'm not even sure they would trade Westbrook for Rondo at this point. I know they didn't a year or so ago and since then Rondo has gotten better. I think OKC is so high on Westbrook that it would take a top 20 player on a smaller contract to get them to budge. Think John Wall or Kyrie Irving types.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: KGs Knee on November 01, 2012, 07:54:46 PM
Bottom line for me is I just think Durant/Harden>Durant/Westbrook.  Better fit, and Harden is more efficient and a better defender.

That, and I just think Westbrook is wildly overrated.  Wouldn't want him anywhere near the C's.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: pearljammer10 on November 02, 2012, 01:03:50 AM
After watching tonights thunder opener against the spurs I can safely agree with you. Yes its one game but Westbrook is a knuckle head. He has such mental lapse that hurt the team so much that its unbearable to watch. The last play of the game with 5 seconds left he was left guarding ABSOLUTELY NOBODY, while his man, Parker, hit a wide open jump shot to win it. I mean there is no exaggeration, he little got juked to guard absolutely no one. Same thing happened on Parkers shot before to tie the game, his defense was terrible.

The guys on Inside the NBA made some great points tonight. Westbrook doesnt make the players on his team better. He is very selfish and turns the ball over at an incredibly high rate. His shot selection is downright awful. If your Westbrook and you have the ball at the three with Durant posting up on your block...10 times out of 10 you give it to Durant in the block not take a fade away three. He forces too much and gets mad at the refs which takes himself out of the game. He really isnt a playmaker. Harden used to give them that. Harden was a guy who could make plays, now they are left with a bunch of one on one individual players who dont like to make their teamates better. Could be a long season in OKC.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: nostar on November 02, 2012, 05:26:03 AM
Let's try to be realistic. Yes, Westbrook makes some dumb decisions. On the other hand he averaged 23-5-5 last season on 45% FG and 82% FT in 35 minutes per game. That is pretty good.

I agree he has some things to work on, mental errors are tough to swallow. Then again there are only a couple of guards in the league with out glaring flaws. Our own beloved point guard has a hot temper, can be moody and can't shoot very well. Just to be clear Rondo is my second favorite player behind KG. He's just not perfect.

Oh and about the defensive lapses. Westbrook gambles a lot on defense. Sound familiar? I will say that sometimes he does it at inopportune times but he also comes close to averaging 2 steals a game. It's a trade off but
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: BballTim on November 02, 2012, 08:03:28 AM
Oh and about the defensive lapses. Westbrook gambles a lot on defense. Sound familiar? I will say that sometimes he does it at inopportune times but he also comes close to averaging 2 steals a game. It's a trade off but

  The fact that Westbrook and Rondo both gamble at times in no way implies that Westbrook defends anywhere near as well as Rondo.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Moranis on November 02, 2012, 08:45:18 AM
Oh and about the defensive lapses. Westbrook gambles a lot on defense. Sound familiar? I will say that sometimes he does it at inopportune times but he also comes close to averaging 2 steals a game. It's a trade off but

  The fact that Westbrook and Rondo both gamble at times in no way implies that Westbrook defends anywhere near as well as Rondo.
yeah I found that quite funny.  Westbrook is more in the Iverson mold of defense than the Rondo mold i.e. lots of steals, but not very strong defense on the whole.  Rondo gambles a lot, but is also a superb man to man defender.  He and Chris Paul are pretty similar in that regard and Westbrook is no where near either of them.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Fafnir on November 02, 2012, 08:51:25 AM
Oh and about the defensive lapses. Westbrook gambles a lot on defense. Sound familiar? I will say that sometimes he does it at inopportune times but he also comes close to averaging 2 steals a game. It's a trade off but

  The fact that Westbrook and Rondo both gamble at times in no way implies that Westbrook defends anywhere near as well as Rondo.
yeah I found that quite funny.  Westbrook is more in the Iverson mold of defense than the Rondo mold i.e. lots of steals, but not very strong defense on the whole.  Rondo gambles a lot, but is also a superb man to man defender.  He and Chris Paul are pretty similar in that regard and Westbrook is no where near either of them.
Which is a shame because physically he could be absolutely dominant.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Fafnir on November 02, 2012, 08:52:39 AM
I didn't like what I saw from Westbrook last night, an awful lot of pouting about calls after barreling into defenders.

He's reminding me more and more of Wade. Which is good and bad I guess.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Fafnir on November 02, 2012, 08:53:51 AM
Oh and Durant had the absolutely idiotic goal tend of a ball that was very likely and "and-1" for Westbrook late in the fourth.

That play still sticks out in my mind.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Snakehead on November 02, 2012, 08:57:54 AM
Which is a shame because physically he could be absolutely dominant.

This is kind of the story of Westbrook.

I told my friend a while back that Westbrook is a player that may actually improve through injury or something if he lost some of his athleticism.  Because he can pull up for a jumper so quickly at virtually any moment he just takes the worst shots.

To address the OP, I was a big Westbrook fan out of college but his game has not matured how I hoped it would.  I would've rather had Harden.  I think he is a better PG in a lot of ways.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Fan from VT on November 02, 2012, 10:28:21 PM
I tend to think that Westbrook is just slightly a better player than Harden, but that Westbrook's "cache" is more better than Harden's, such that "Westbrook + Harden's-trade-return" is not as good as "Harden + Westbrook's-trade-return." Not sure if that makes sense.

Let's try this analogy: Say that as a player, Westbrook is a $.95 player and Harden is a %.92 player, but Westbrook around the league could fetch $.98 value and Harden could fetch $.88 value.

So Harden + Westrook is like $1.87. Harden + Westbrook's value is $1.90 and but Westbrook + Harden's return (Martin, Lamb, couple of variably protected 1sts) is like $1.83.

This may be completely wrong, but I could imagine a scenario where, despite Westbrook being better than Harden, OKC would be better by trading Westbrook instead of Harden because the proportional return would be greater due the reputation and recognition.

We know Harden fetched Martin, Lamb, and 2 1sts of variable protection.

What would westbrook have fetched this summer? (post his salary/pre recent extensions).

Would Detroit have done Stuckey/Monroe/knight or other?

Would Philly have done Jrue Holiday/Thadeus Young/Moultrie?

Would Toronto have done Lowry/Calderon/Valencuinas for Westbrook/Perk?

Would Memphis do Conley/Wroten/Gasol for Westbrook/Perkins?

Rubio/Pekovic/Ridnour from Minny?


Basically, we know that Westbrook+Harden+Durant+Ibaka+Collison/perkins was a title contender.

So accepting that they had to keep only 2 of Westbrook-Harden-Durant, I think there were ways they could have turned Westbrook into a PG that can shoot, share, defend as well as a legit center for greater roster balance and maybe at the same time ditch the Perk contract.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: nostar on November 02, 2012, 10:55:45 PM
I'm hearing a lot of "not a very good comparison" stuff. Guys Rondo is 3 years older than Westbrook and has 2 full NBA season on him, also a much better coach and defesive system to play in. For young guys those differences are huge. Rondo had issues staying on his man a couple of season ago too. My main point is that Westbrook is not the chopped liver some people in this thread are making him out to be. He's a top NBA talent plain and simple. He's also young.

I also want to say that the point people are responding to is one of my lesser points and in no way did I say that Westbrook is as good a defender as Rondo. I don't think that. I do think they have similar tendencies, but I also think Rondo is a smarter player than Westbrook and gambles better.

Saying that Oklahoma City would be better with Harden than Westbrook is silly to me. It would all depend on what point guard they got back for Russ. If they get back Rondo then yeah they are better. They have tons of scoring and a smarter PG. If they get back Kyle Lowry then I'm not sure sure they are better. It's less about Harden vs Westbrook to me and more about Kevin Martin vs ??. Oh and don't forget the 3 picks and Jeremy Lamb.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: action781 on November 08, 2012, 10:14:41 PM
What could have been in the OKC/Houston trade...

OKC acquired the Toronto pick acquired from Kyle Lowry in the deal.  So from Houston's point of view, they certainly would have sent Lowry to OKC instead of that pick if they still had him.

Would OKC prefer Lowry than the pick?  Likely, but they already have a PG in Westbrook.  BUT, if Lowry was on the table, they could have traded away Westbrook instead of Harden.  Before the season started, Houston would take that in a minute.

OKC's back court would be Lowry and Thabo/Harden instead of Westbrook and Thabo/Martin.

I think this would be a better team with Lowry+Harden instead of Westbrook+Martin.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: pearljammer10 on November 09, 2012, 12:32:40 AM
Someone's goTta tell Westbrook to stop shooting so much. I mean game after game he is putting up more shots then the games best scorer and scoring champ. Last night he was 7 for 22 with 16 points while Durant was 11/19 with 24 points. When the games best scorer and scoring that efficiently you need to get him the ball. Until Westbrook learns he is a second banana to Durant I don't think OKC can win a title.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Mazingerz on November 09, 2012, 01:20:00 AM
Short Answer: yes.

Long Answer: POSITIVE.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: jdz101 on November 09, 2012, 07:15:25 AM
I'm not so sure I would say yes to this.

Russ performed like he embraced the challenge in the finals. Harden was downright pathetic.

Westbrook gets more shots because he starts with the ball and he's one of the more confident guys in the league. For good reason aswell.

If KD and OKC wanted Russ to go to into his shell more and take less offensive opportunities, they would have told him by now.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: BballTim on November 09, 2012, 07:26:43 AM
I'm not so sure I would say yes to this.

Russ performed like he embraced the challenge in the finals. Harden was downright pathetic.

Westbrook gets more shots because he starts with the ball and he's one of the more confident guys in the league. For good reason aswell.

If KD and OKC wanted Russ to go to into his shell more and take less offensive opportunities, they would have told him by now.

  Not sure I buy the argument that OKC want Russell taking more shots than KD.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: CelticG1 on November 09, 2012, 08:30:50 AM
Someone's goTta tell Westbrook to stop shooting so much. I mean game after game he is putting up more shots then the games best scorer and scoring champ. Last night he was 7 for 22 with 16 points while Durant was 11/19 with 24 points. When the games best scorer and scoring that efficiently you need to get him the ball. Until Westbrook learns he is a second banana to Durant I don't think OKC can win a title.

During the game is he deliberately not passing to KD?

Over the last few years has he averaged more shots than KD?

He is going to shoot a lot other wise KD would be taking 40 shots a game
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: pearljammer10 on November 09, 2012, 10:05:09 AM
Someone's goTta tell Westbrook to stop shooting so much. I mean game after game he is putting up more shots then the games best scorer and scoring champ. Last night he was 7 for 22 with 16 points while Durant was 11/19 with 24 points. When the games best scorer and scoring that efficiently you need to get him the ball. Until Westbrook learns he is a second banana to Durant I don't think OKC can win a title.

During the game is he deliberately not passing to KD?

Over the last few years has he averaged more shots than KD?

He is going to shoot a lot other wise KD would be taking 40 shots a game

Sometimes it seems that way.

No, durant has always gotten more shots. until Last year when they both had 19 shots per game Durant still averaged almost 6 more points a game then Durant.

This year however Westbrook is averaging 5 more shots a game than Durant. Westbrook is averaging 2 points less then Durant while still taking five more shots. Durant is averaging 8 for 16 from the floor shooting 48% while Westbrook is shooting a putrid 7 out of 20! For just 37%.

You're going to try and say those extra 5 shots, which would probably smarter shots anyway, should stay with Westbrook and not go to the best scorer in the league? Especially when he is making more shots then Westbrook on 5 less attempts? Westbrook has terrible shot selection and until he starts making smarter decisions and realizing he is number two to Durant then OKC is not going to be as dangerous.

Heck, I would almost much rather have Durant take those 40 shots a game you speak of.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: pearljammer10 on November 09, 2012, 10:08:02 AM
Westbrook is just not the smarter player either
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Kane3387 on November 09, 2012, 10:14:49 AM
Oh and about the defensive lapses. Westbrook gambles a lot on defense. Sound familiar? I will say that sometimes he does it at inopportune times but he also comes close to averaging 2 steals a game. It's a trade off but

  The fact that Westbrook and Rondo both gamble at times in no way implies that Westbrook defends anywhere near as well as Rondo.
yeah I found that quite funny.  Westbrook is more in the Iverson mold of defense than the Rondo mold i.e. lots of steals, but not very strong defense on the whole.  Rondo gambles a lot, but is also a superb man to man defender.  He and Chris Paul are pretty similar in that regard and Westbrook is no where near either of them.

I think Rondo's Man to Man Defense has slipped the last few years. He is asked to do more overall then in the past and I think he conserves himself more on that end.

This is an article via ESPN Insider. It mentions Kobe Bryant, Aaron Afflalo, Joakim Noah, and Tayshaun Prince along with Rondo as the 5 most overrated Defenders in the NBA. Below is Rondo.

Quote
Rajon Rondo | Boston Celtics

Rondo
Rondo is known for his long arms and massive hands, both of which have helped him pile up 843 career steals going into the 2012-13 season (which ranks second only to Chris Paul over the same six-year period). While those steals-related stats are impressive, there's evidence that Rondo's overall defensive impact hasn't lived up to his All-Defense reputation for several years.

Rondo's career counterpart PER of 15.6 doesn't tell the tale of an elite on-ball defender, and plus/minus data show a decline in performance within the team concept as well. Over Rondo's first four NBA seasons, the Celtics were 2.2 points of defensive rating better with him on the floor, including an incredible 8.3-point difference during Rondo's rookie season of 2006-07. Since the start of the 2010-11 season, however, that number has been flipped; over the past two seasons, Boston was actually 2.1 points per 100 possessions better when Rondo wasn't in the game.

The emergence of backup point guard Avery Bradley -- who posted a young-Rondo-esque minus-4.4 on/off defensive differential last year -- is certainly a mitigating circumstance, but like Noah, Rondo's plus/minus numbers aren't impressive even after accounting for the "good defensive backup" factor. According to regularized adjusted plus/minus, Rondo ranked tied for No. 46 among guards last season (in terms of defense), a far fall from the second-place ranking he held early in his career.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8595253/nba-kobe-bryant-joakim-noah-overrated-defenders
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: wdleehi on November 09, 2012, 10:18:37 AM
I still think they could be better if they got a PG good enough to shift him to SG. 


Someone that can help get him some easy shots as well as going a better job of making sure Durrant gets enough touches. 
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Chris on November 09, 2012, 10:20:09 AM
I still think they could be better if they got a PG good enough to shift him to SG. 


Someone that can help get him some easy shots as well as going a better job of making sure Durrant gets enough touches.

While I agree with this to a point, I just am not sure Westbrook is nearly as effective playing off the ball.  I just think he needs his own team.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: CelticG1 on November 09, 2012, 10:44:54 AM
Someone's goTta tell Westbrook to stop shooting so much. I mean game after game he is putting up more shots then the games best scorer and scoring champ. Last night he was 7 for 22 with 16 points while Durant was 11/19 with 24 points. When the games best scorer and scoring that efficiently you need to get him the ball. Until Westbrook learns he is a second banana to Durant I don't think OKC can win a title.

During the game is he deliberately not passing to KD?

Over the last few years has he averaged more shots than KD?

He is going to shoot a lot other wise KD would be taking 40 shots a game

Sometimes it seems that way.

No, durant has always gotten more shots. until Last year when they both had 19 shots per game Durant still averaged almost 6 more points a game then Durant.

This year however Westbrook is averaging 5 more shots a game than Durant. Westbrook is averaging 2 points less then Durant while still taking five more shots. Durant is averaging 8 for 16 from the floor shooting 48% while Westbrook is shooting a putrid 7 out of 20! For just 37%.

You're going to try and say those extra 5 shots, which would probably smarter shots anyway, should stay with Westbrook and not go to the best scorer in the league? Especially when he is making more shots then Westbrook on 5 less attempts? Westbrook has terrible shot selection and until he starts making smarter decisions and realizing he is number two to Durant then OKC is not going to be as dangerous.

Heck, I would almost much rather have Durant take those 40 shots a game you speak of.

Basketball is so situational though that unless you analyze even single pass/play with KD and Westbrook on the court its hard tonjust conclude that Westbrook needs to take less shots or whatever.

Too many factors play into this, coaches calls, shot clock, defense on Westbrook, defense on KD, referees, opponents etc.

Especially with such a small sample size and playing with out a key member of your team from the past few years. It just seems a little pre mature to point this out now unless you have analyzed these games thoroughly and have concluded that Westbrook is looking off of Durant more, not putting an effort to get him shots, not running the correct plays.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: BballTim on November 09, 2012, 10:55:29 AM
Oh and about the defensive lapses. Westbrook gambles a lot on defense. Sound familiar? I will say that sometimes he does it at inopportune times but he also comes close to averaging 2 steals a game. It's a trade off but

  The fact that Westbrook and Rondo both gamble at times in no way implies that Westbrook defends anywhere near as well as Rondo.
yeah I found that quite funny.  Westbrook is more in the Iverson mold of defense than the Rondo mold i.e. lots of steals, but not very strong defense on the whole.  Rondo gambles a lot, but is also a superb man to man defender.  He and Chris Paul are pretty similar in that regard and Westbrook is no where near either of them.

I think Rondo's Man to Man Defense has slipped the last few years. He is asked to do more overall then in the past and I think he conserves himself more on that end.

This is an article via ESPN Insider. It mentions Kobe Bryant, Aaron Afflalo, Joakim Noah, and Tayshaun Prince along with Rondo as the 5 most overrated Defenders in the NBA. Below is Rondo.

Quote
Rajon Rondo | Boston Celtics

Rondo
Rondo is known for his long arms and massive hands, both of which have helped him pile up 843 career steals going into the 2012-13 season (which ranks second only to Chris Paul over the same six-year period). While those steals-related stats are impressive, there's evidence that Rondo's overall defensive impact hasn't lived up to his All-Defense reputation for several years.

Rondo's career counterpart PER of 15.6 doesn't tell the tale of an elite on-ball defender, and plus/minus data show a decline in performance within the team concept as well. Over Rondo's first four NBA seasons, the Celtics were 2.2 points of defensive rating better with him on the floor, including an incredible 8.3-point difference during Rondo's rookie season of 2006-07. Since the start of the 2010-11 season, however, that number has been flipped; over the past two seasons, Boston was actually 2.1 points per 100 possessions better when Rondo wasn't in the game.

The emergence of backup point guard Avery Bradley -- who posted a young-Rondo-esque minus-4.4 on/off defensive differential last year -- is certainly a mitigating circumstance, but like Noah, Rondo's plus/minus numbers aren't impressive even after accounting for the "good defensive backup" factor. According to regularized adjusted plus/minus, Rondo ranked tied for No. 46 among guards last season (in terms of defense), a far fall from the second-place ranking he held early in his career.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8595253/nba-kobe-bryant-joakim-noah-overrated-defenders

  Rondo's defensive numbers, whether you look at 82games or synergy sports, are certainly elite. I think that his +/- numbers last year were skewed quite a bit by the overall team performance. Rondo played big minutes when PP and (especially) KG were playing poorly and the team's defense was bad, and missed 10 or so games when the defense was good. When the team was playing poorly Rondo had a pretty good +/- defensively, but even though the defense was better with Rondo in it was much worse than the defense later in the season.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Brendan on November 09, 2012, 11:43:56 AM
To the thread's question: I'd say yes.

I think they could get a better player to go with Harden (fit wise and quality wise). I think a SG like Harden gives you more options at PG.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: snively on November 09, 2012, 11:50:46 AM
Westbrook could be a lot more efficient if he cut down on some of those pull-up Js, especially from 3, and drove all the way to the basket.  He's taken almost as many 3s as free throws this year.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Who on November 09, 2012, 12:44:37 PM
Trade Idea: Russell Westbrook for Marc Gasol and Mike Conley?

PG: Conley, Maynor
SG: Harden
SF: Durant, Thabo
PF: Ibaka
C:  M.Gasol, Collison

That would be a pretty nasty Oklahoma team. I'd love to see a Marc Gasol + Serge Ibaka combination up front. A nice pass first PG who can spread the floor for Harden and Durant to work with.

PG: Westbrook, Bayless
SG: (shooter), TA
SF: Gay
PF: Z-Bo, D.Arthur
C:  (new addition),

More holes than solutions for Memphis. Not sure it's worth it for them. Three shot-happy stars to build around. Big hole in the middle. Probably some problems making TA work with Westbrook, Z-Bo and Gay. Especially without Marc Gasol's high post offense.

I think it would be more of a retooling trade for Memphis. Discard Gasol for a superior long term building block in Westbrook. Use Westbrook and Gay as your foundation for the future. Trade Z-Bo to pickup another piece. Try to have a Championship Contender in 2-3 years time ... with the belief that this current group (with M.Gasol) isn't going to be good enough to give them a title-shot.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: Who on November 09, 2012, 12:54:49 PM
Would Portland have traded LaMarcus Aldridge for Russell Westbrook?

I think they might have prior to the draft but they seem very high on Damian Lillard and the prospect of Lillard and Aldridge together as a 1-2 punch. Not sure they'd make that deal in training camp.

Aldridge would have been fantastic alongside Ibaka, Durant and Harden.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: D.o.s. on November 14, 2012, 01:34:13 PM
Per Hardwood Paroxysm:

Russell Westbrook has never missed a game in his four-year NBA career. In those four years, he is the only player in the league to appear in every single game.

Russell Westbrook has improved his field goal percentage in every season he has been in the league. Its gone from 39.8% to 41.8% to 44.2% to 45.7%.

Russell Westbrook has decreased his turnover percentage in every season he has been in the league. Its gone from 17.6% to 16.6% to 15.9% to 14.2%.

In his first four seasons, Russell Westbrook has scored 5,929 points, grabbed 1,480 rebounds, and dished out 2,119 assists. Only one other player in NBA history has accumulated those numbers through four seasons. His name is Oscar Robertson.

Through his first four seasons, Russell Westbrook has averaged 19.0 points, 4.7 rebounds, and 6.8 assists per game. Only two other players in NBA history have averaged those numbers through four seasons. Their names are Chris Paul and Oscar Robertson.

Through his first four seasons, Russell Westbrook has averaged 20.0 points, 5.0 rebounds and 7.2 assists per-36 minutes. Only one other player in NBA history has averaged those numbers through four seasons. His name is you guessed it Oscar Robertson.

People can rag on Russell Westbrook for not being a point guard all they want. I say we just #LetWestbrookBeWestbrook. After all, hes already well on his way to having one of the best point guard careers of all time.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: indeedproceed on November 14, 2012, 01:36:55 PM
Per Hardwood Paroxysm:

Russell Westbrook has never missed a game in his four-year NBA career. In those four years, he is the only player in the league to appear in every single game.

Russell Westbrook has improved his field goal percentage in every season he has been in the league. Its gone from 39.8% to 41.8% to 44.2% to 45.7%.

Russell Westbrook has decreased his turnover percentage in every season he has been in the league. Its gone from 17.6% to 16.6% to 15.9% to 14.2%.

In his first four seasons, Russell Westbrook has scored 5,929 points, grabbed 1,480 rebounds, and dished out 2,119 assists. Only one other player in NBA history has accumulated those numbers through four seasons. His name is Oscar Robertson.

Through his first four seasons, Russell Westbrook has averaged 19.0 points, 4.7 rebounds, and 6.8 assists per game. Only two other players in NBA history have averaged those numbers through four seasons. Their names are Chris Paul and Oscar Robertson.

Through his first four seasons, Russell Westbrook has averaged 20.0 points, 5.0 rebounds and 7.2 assists per-36 minutes. Only one other player in NBA history has averaged those numbers through four seasons. His name is you guessed it Oscar Robertson.

People can rag on Russell Westbrook for not being a point guard all they want. I say we just #LetWestbrookBeWestbrook. After all, hes already well on his way to having one of the best point guard careers of all time.

I don't think that Russell WEstbrook is as historically good as those numbers indicate. The rule changes, especially hand-check rule changes, are going to skew numbers towards perimeter slashers and scorers until (if its ever) adjusted.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: D.o.s. on November 14, 2012, 01:42:40 PM
That's probably true.

I think Westbrook's battling a zero-sum game on the thunder, though, since everyone in the basketball world has been riding Durant's wave since he showed up on our radar screens at the college level.

You can't blame Saint Kevin for anything, so any problems with the Thunder are falling, will continue to fall, and will forever fall square on Westbrook's head.

"But he can pass the ball to Durant!"

Because it's not like the other team doesn't know that Durant is a beast of a scorer, or anything. The thunder are operating at the best level when Westbrook is going off, which allows Durant to get better looks.

You swap him out with Harden, and that doesn't work as well, because Harden's a great PnR guy, not a nearly-unstoppable explosive slasher.

Just sayin'.
Title: Re: Would OKC been better off trading Westbrook?
Post by: snively on November 14, 2012, 02:05:20 PM
That's probably true.

I think Westbrook's battling a zero-sum game on the thunder, though, since everyone in the basketball world has been riding Durant's wave since he showed up on our radar screens at the college level.

You can't blame Saint Kevin for anything, so any problems with the Thunder are falling, will continue to fall, and will forever fall square on Westbrook's head.


Westbrook deserves much of the criticism he gets - he was the least efficient of the Thunder hydra last year, clocking in 5+% in TS% behind Durant and Harden, but he still used up more possessions/shots than them.  He regularly called his own number instead of getting a higher % look for a teammate.  He was also a big reason why they were one of the league's worst turnover teams.

That's not to say he isn't awesome in other categories - a fantastic rebounder, a one man fast break, a devastating slasher, an improved mid-range shooter, and a lock-down man defender when he's on his game.

He's a great player but flawed, and his flaws can often be quite detrimental to his team.  That's why he gets more criticism than guys like Durant and Harden, who generally do less that hurts their team.