CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: Lightskinsmurf on January 10, 2013, 11:48:21 AM
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That i happen to agree with. "Great coaches adjust their system to the players they have on the roster, not the other way around." I instantly thought of doc *And other average to bad coaches* when i read this, thoughts?
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The thing is, Doc is a guy who adjusts to the players. The problem (and benefit) with Doc is that he is excessively patient. He has very little sense of urgency when it comes to working players in. He believes in letting things slowly evolve, and having the players and the system meet in the middle.
That is what we are seeing right now.
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What's Doc's system, anyway? The team seems to be playing pretty standard basketball, people know their roles, and it seems to fit well. Sole exception I can think of is maybe JET, who is playing the poor man's Judas even though he has other strengths.
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What I'm seeing now is doc using terry like ray allen and not utilizing his strengths enough. Its driving me crazy. I don't think doc is bad but i don't think hes great either.
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Not sure whether you are being critical or praiseworthy of Doc.
Doc has definitely adjusted his system over the years depending upon personnel.
He was never a small ball type coach back in Orlando or even in most of his time here. But given the personnel Danny has brought in and the tendencies around the league, he plays a lot of small ball now.
He has an older core and because of that he preferred a half court offense with the occasional fast break. He professes he prefers a fast break system but that he has never had the players to run that system, so once again he has adapted to which players he has.
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The thing is, Doc is a guy who adjusts to the players. The problem (and benefit) with Doc is that he is excessively patient. He has very little sense of urgency when it comes to working players in. He believes in letting things slowly evolve, and having the players and the system meet in the middle.
That is what we are seeing right now.
I totally agree with this. While his patience has a tendency to frustrate fans, it has a proven track record of working out very well.
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The thing is, Doc is a guy who adjusts to the players. The problem (and benefit) with Doc is that he is excessively patient. He has very little sense of urgency when it comes to working players in. He believes in letting things slowly evolve, and having the players and the system meet in the middle.
That is what we are seeing right now.
I still believe Doc prefers mediocre vets to rookies. It didn't take most of us long to realize Sully needed big minutes( as long as he could stay out of foul trouble). Took Doc about 3 months. Which goes back to your slowly evolving point.
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The JET thing is a little excusable because of the guard problems we've had, what with Lee playing like garbage (offensively), and Bradley being out. Now that AB is back and Lee found his mojo, perhaps JET will be able to lead the bench like he was supposed to, and we'll see more variety. He shouldn't be on the floor at the same time as Rondo, imo, which is what causes those endless screens.
Remember that Ainge picked up Terry partly as a response to Doc's request that he be given some personnel that could create. Last year we just had Rondo and Pierce. This year we have Rondo, Pierce, JET, Green, Barbosa, maybe Lee as well. So you have to believe that Doc was just waiting for the right pieces to come together.
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What I'm seeing now is doc using terry like ray allen and not utilizing his strengths enough. Its driving me crazy. I don't think doc is bad but i don't think hes great either.
I think he was early in the season (and that was driving me crazy too). Over the last few weeks, that has stopped.
And while I agree that Doc isn't great, I am not sure any coach is that great. I believe in players more than coaches. But Doc has been tremendously successful, and is one of the most respected coaches in the league, who is as much a recruiter as he is a coach.
He has his flaws, just like every coach (including Popovic who is the most overrated coach on the planet...all due respect to Belichick).
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The thing is, Doc is a guy who adjusts to the players. The problem (and benefit) with Doc is that he is excessively patient. He has very little sense of urgency when it comes to working players in. He believes in letting things slowly evolve, and having the players and the system meet in the middle.
That is what we are seeing right now.
I totally agree with. While his patience has a tendency to frustrate fans, it has a proven track record of working out very well.
Patience is fine. I only have issues when i feel doc isn't putting his players in the best possible situation to succeed.
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The thing is, Doc is a guy who adjusts to the players. The problem (and benefit) with Doc is that he is excessively patient. He has very little sense of urgency when it comes to working players in. He believes in letting things slowly evolve, and having the players and the system meet in the middle.
That is what we are seeing right now.
I totally agree with. While his patience has a tendency to frustrate fans, it has a proven track record of working out very well.
Patience is fine. I only have issues when i feel doc isn't putting his players in the best possible situation to succeed.
Right, but this is a problem of perception in my opinion. Because by being patient, and trying to integrate players into the system that is already in place, but then flexing as he learns more about their tendencies, I think he is putting them and the team in a position to succeed in the longrun. Its just a painful process to watch sometimes.
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The thing is, Doc is a guy who adjusts to the players. The problem (and benefit) with Doc is that he is excessively patient. He has very little sense of urgency when it comes to working players in. He believes in letting things slowly evolve, and having the players and the system meet in the middle.
That is what we are seeing right now.
I still believe Doc prefers mediocre vets to rookies. It didn't take most of us long to realize Sully needed big minutes( as long as he could stay out of foul trouble). Took Doc about 3 months. Which goes back to your slowly evolving point.
Which reminds me, anyone know why AB only got 18 mins the other night?
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As much as we don't like to admit it, Phil Jackson is probably the first person that comes to mind when most basketball fans think great coach.
Did he ever adjust his system? He ran the triangle no matter what, with both the Lakers and Bulls, right?
How often does Jim Boeheim go away from the 2-3 zone?
I'm not from the old days, but how often did Red or Wooden adjust their systems?
I don't know how much the statement is really true. I do think it's a strength to be able to adjust your system to the personnel, but I don't think it's necessarily a quality in great coaches.
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I've noticed that the ball is is starting to be in Terry's hands with more frequency when he's out there with the second unit. Like somebody already mentioned, now that Bradley's back and Jet's back to his bench role, it means more opportunity for him to be the best shot creator on the floor. Obviously, when he's sharing the court with Pierce and Rondo that's not the case.
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These threads criticizing Doc seem too much like people won't know what they have until it's gone. I mean he is universally considered a top coach with popovich.
The fact that his players would take a bullet for him is good enough for me. Phil Jackson is considered one of the greatest coaches ever and he got embarrassed by Doc in 2008.
Doc was masterful in 2010. If not for injuries he probably has three rings.
He was great for the most part in Orlando where they had no one outside of T-Mac because all their money was invested in Grant Hill.
He's a fantastic coach and a true leader of men, plain and simple.
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The thing is, Doc is a guy who adjusts to the players. The problem (and benefit) with Doc is that he is excessively patient. He has very little sense of urgency when it comes to working players in. He believes in letting things slowly evolve, and having the players and the system meet in the middle.
That is what we are seeing right now.
I still believe Doc prefers mediocre vets to rookies. It didn't take most of us long to realize Sully needed big minutes( as long as he could stay out of foul trouble). Took Doc about 3 months. Which goes back to your slowly evolving point.
Which reminds me, anyone know why AB only got 18 mins the other night?
I think they are taking it slow with him. He looked tired later in the game, with his shot, which isn't surprising, and they are still trying not to put too much stress on his shoulders too quickly. I think you will see a slow buildup of his minutes over the next month or so.
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These threads criticizing Doc seem too much like people won't know what they have until it's gone. I mean he is universally considered a top coach with popovich.
The fact that his players would take a bullet for him is good enough for me. Phil Jackson is considered one of the greatest coaches ever and he got embarrassed by Doc in 2008.
Doc was masterful in 2010. If not for injuries he probably has three rings.
He was great for the most part in Orlando where they had no one outside of T-Mac because all their money was invested in Grant Hill.
He's a fantastic coach and a true leader of men, plain and simple.
I disagree
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These threads criticizing Doc seem too much like people won't know what they have until it's gone. I mean he is universally considered a top coach with popovich.
The fact that his players would take a bullet for him is good enough for me. Phil Jackson is considered one of the greatest coaches ever and he got embarrassed by Doc in 2008.
Doc was masterful in 2010. If not for injuries he probably has three rings.
He was great for the most part in Orlando where they had no one outside of T-Mac because all their money was invested in Grant Hill.
He's a fantastic coach and a true leader of men, plain and simple.
I disagree
Sure, it's your constitutional right :P
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These threads criticizing Doc seem too much like people won't know what they have until it's gone. I mean he is universally considered a top coach with popovich.
The fact that his players would take a bullet for him is good enough for me. Phil Jackson is considered one of the greatest coaches ever and he got embarrassed by Doc in 2008.
Doc was masterful in 2010. If not for injuries he probably has three rings.
He was great for the most part in Orlando where they had no one outside of T-Mac because all their money was invested in Grant Hill.
He's a fantastic coach and a true leader of men, plain and simple.
I disagree
K
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I think they are taking it slow with him. He looked tired later in the game, with his shot, which isn't surprising, and they are still trying not to put too much stress on his shoulders too quickly. I think you will see a slow buildup of his minutes over the next month or so.
This. AB was front-rimming everything yesterday.
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I think they are taking it slow with him. He looked tired later in the game, with his shot, which isn't surprising, and they are still trying not to put too much stress on his shoulders too quickly. I think you will see a slow buildup of his minutes over the next month or so.
This. AB was front-rimming everything yesterday.
Fair enough, every time AB shoots i cringe. Still, that defense is filthy.
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The thing is, Doc is a guy who adjusts to the players. The problem (and benefit) with Doc is that he is excessively patient. He has very little sense of urgency when it comes to working players in. He believes in letting things slowly evolve, and having the players and the system meet in the middle.
That is what we are seeing right now.
I still believe Doc prefers mediocre vets to rookies. It didn't take most of us long to realize Sully needed big minutes( as long as he could stay out of foul trouble). Took Doc about 3 months. Which goes back to your slowly evolving point.
Which reminds me, anyone know why AB only got 18 mins the other night?
Because Jet and Lee were playing really well. If he'd gotten twenty-five minutes, you'd be complaining about one of those guys' minutes.
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The thing is, Doc is a guy who adjusts to the players. The problem (and benefit) with Doc is that he is excessively patient. He has very little sense of urgency when it comes to working players in. He believes in letting things slowly evolve, and having the players and the system meet in the middle.
That is what we are seeing right now.
Nailed it here.
Doc is the ultimate player coach. He is almost excessively patient with players. It's why they love him but it can be frustrating at times.
I think they are taking it slow with him. He looked tired later in the game, with his shot, which isn't surprising, and they are still trying not to put too much stress on his shoulders too quickly. I think you will see a slow buildup of his minutes over the next month or so.
This. AB was front-rimming everything yesterday.
Fair enough, every time AB shoots i cringe. Still, that defense is filthy.
It'll get there. Started slow last year too but his shooting numbers by the end of the season were good.
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Fair enough, every time AB shoots i cringe. Still, that defense is filthy.
I think that if the game was closer, and we needed defensive stops, AB would go back out there. But playing tired is how injuries happen, and we didn't need the badger after recovering from that silly 17-2 run.
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As much as we don't like to admit it, Phil Jackson is probably the first person that comes to mind when most basketball fans think great coach.
Did he ever adjust his system? He ran the triangle no matter what, with both the Lakers and Bulls, right?
Phil Jackson changed the Triangle offense to accommodate Shaquille O'Neal despite strong disagreement from Tex Winters.
In the Triangle, the center is often asked to come up to the elbow and act as a passer + screener / facilitator for the offense. As Luc Longley and Bill Cartwright did in Chicago and Pau Gasol did in LA years later. Phil Jackson removed many of those sequences from the Lakers offense and instead allowed Shaq to remain rooted to the low post to better take advantage of Shaq's specific strengths and weaknesses.
Tex Winters was very unhappy with this. Didn't want the integrity of the offense altered to suit a single player no matter who that player was. Phil Jackson did it anyway and it helped lead the Lakers to 3 Championships.
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I think they are taking it slow with him. He looked tired later in the game, with his shot, which isn't surprising, and they are still trying not to put too much stress on his shoulders too quickly. I think you will see a slow buildup of his minutes over the next month or so.
This. AB was front-rimming everything yesterday.
Fair enough, every time AB shoots i cringe. Still, that defense is filthy.
Right, but it was more about preservation of a guy returning from injury and still getting in game shape, than punishing him for not being able to shoot.
The shooting was just a signal that he needed to rest a bit, as he has pushed pretty hard after being out for so long. Its just taking the longview, and trying to avoid burning him out, or getting him hurt again.
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The thing is, Doc is a guy who adjusts to the players. The problem (and benefit) with Doc is that he is excessively patient. He has very little sense of urgency when it comes to working players in. He believes in letting things slowly evolve, and having the players and the system meet in the middle.
That is what we are seeing right now.
This was my exact thought watching the Suns game last night. I was asking myself how can Doc be so patient? And how can he not change plays and the system to fit players and get more immediate results than what he is getting. But hey, if it works for us, then it is what it is.
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The only real complaint I've had with Doc over the years is I always thought our offense was too complicated. Just keep it simple and go to what works, instead of endless plays with screens and picks.
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As much as we don't like to admit it, Phil Jackson is probably the first person that comes to mind when most basketball fans think great coach.
Did he ever adjust his system? He ran the triangle no matter what, with both the Lakers and Bulls, right?
Phil Jackson changed the Triangle offense to accommodate Shaquille O'Neal despite strong disagreement from Tex Winters.
In the Triangle, the center is often asked to come up to the elbow and act as a passer + screener / facilitator for the offense. As Luc Longley and Bill Cartwright did in Chicago and Pau Gasol did in LA years later. Phil Jackson removed many of those sequences from the Lakers offense and instead allowed Shaq to remain rooted to the low post to better take advantage of Shaq's specific strengths and weaknesses.
Tex Winters was very unhappy with this. Didn't want the integrity of the offense altered to suit a single player no matter who that player was. Phil Jackson did it anyway and it helped lead the Lakers to 3 Championships.
Deciding to take advantage of Shaq's strengths was no great feat. Any amatuer could figure that out (except, apparently Tex Winter).
Blending player's personalities and egos was always Jacksons' biggest strength. Doc is very similar in this regard.
I doubt Doc wouldn't have just as many titles as Phil if he had MJ, Pippen, Shaq & Kobe.
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Fair enough, every time AB shoots i cringe. Still, that defense is filthy.
Not sure why you would cringe. His shooting form is pretty sweet. I watch Shawn Marion, Kevin Martin and Joakim Noah take shots and I cringe. I watch Shaq and DH12 and some others take free throws, and I cringe. But Bradley, never. I just wait for them to drop because the form looks extremely good.
He is definitely rusty and not in the type of NBA shape he would like to be at his peak, so his shot is off. But if anything, last year proved when he is comfortable and not injured, his shot and shot efficiency is way above average.
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Fair enough, every time AB shoots i cringe. Still, that defense is filthy.
Not sure why you would cringe. His shooting form is pretty sweet. I watch Shawn Marion, Kevin Martin and Joakim Noah take shots and I cringe. I watch Shaq and DH12 and some others take free throws, and I cringe. But Bradley, never. I just wait for them to drop because the form looks extremely good.
He is definitely rusty and not in the type of NBA shape he would like to be at his peak, so his shot is off. But if anything, last year proved when he is comfortable and not injured, his shot and shot efficiency is way above average.
I thought he was jumping backwards a bit in the first few games, not confident when he was shooting. He seems to be over that. Next step will be the occasional "Jeff Green" type of drive.
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AB shot 4/9 last night 44%... 3 of his missed shots were from 3, he was 1-4 from 3 and 3/5 from 2... not that bad.
AB shooting this season in his short time back:
Against NYK he was 6/11 54%
Against ATL he was 3/9 33%
Against IND he was 3/11 27%
Against Mem he was 2/6 33%
While he isn't at his best yet, he is getting better/solid as he plays more games! In his 5 games back he is at a bad 39% overall but his last 2 games he is shooting 50% (and 45% last 3 games)... that's just his 4th and 5th game from playing no real basketball since the second round of the playoffs last season!
His shot is coming around, you guys need to give him a break... at least he is confident enough to take them, that was his problem early last season, he had no confidence so he was missing everything but if you noticed so far this season and the end of last season he isn't hesitating and when he gets a rhythm he makes the shots. He's much like Bass, when they have confidence, they make MOST of their shots (as I said in another thread Bass has been less hesitant on his shots and he's starting to make them again).
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These threads criticizing Doc seem too much like people won't know what they have until it's gone. I mean he is universally considered a top coach with popovich.
The fact that his players would take a bullet for him is good enough for me. Phil Jackson is considered one of the greatest coaches ever and he got embarrassed by Doc in 2008.
Doc was masterful in 2010. If not for injuries he probably has three rings.
He was great for the most part in Orlando where they had no one outside of T-Mac because all their money was invested in Grant Hill.
He's a fantastic coach and a true leader of men, plain and simple.
TP couldnt have said it better myself.
Would we rather have a coach like gentry that calls 20 second time outs with 6 seconds left when the game is already over..........