Rick Barry - Jays have "Westbrook Disease"

[Neurotic Guy]

I think that statement is much more applicable to Brown than it is to Tatum.  Brown does tend to play hero ball too much given he is a poor passer.  He isn't Westbrook, that part is over the top, but Brown should scale that back some.  I'm mostly fine with how Tatum plays as the #1 option.  Gets to the line ok, decent passer, and generally takes care of the ball.  Sure there are times when all players get a bit too selfish, but I'm ok with Tatum doing that on occasion. 

Smart was the guy most like Westbrook offensively though.  Terrible shooter that just keeps shooting. It was so frustrating watching Smart. Glad we don't have to do that any more.

Agree with this entire post.

[BitterJim]

I think that statement is much more applicable to Brown than it is to Tatum.  Brown does tend to play hero ball too much given he is a poor passer.  He isn't Westbrook, that part is over the top, but Brown should scale that back some.  I'm mostly fine with how Tatum plays as the #1 option.  Gets to the line ok, decent passer, and generally takes care of the ball.  Sure there are times when all players get a bit too selfish, but I'm ok with Tatum doing that on occasion. 

Smart was the guy most like Westbrook offensively though.  Terrible shooter that just keeps shooting. It was so frustrating watching Smart. Glad we don't have to do that any more.

If you ignore what Westbrook actually was then, sure, I guess. But Smart never went above a 19.4% usage rate, while Westbrook has never dropped below 25.7% for a full season (and that was his sophomore season, he's been over 30% for 11 of his 15 seasons including the NBA/ABA record of 41.7% the year he won MVP, which is just absurd. Wilt no doubt beats him, but usage rate wasn't tracked back then). Even the Jays' highest usage rates can't compete with how much Westbrook has dominated the ball (7/15 seasons higher than Tatum's career high of 32.7% and 9/15 seasons above Brown's high of 31.4%). Comparing Smart (17.6% career usage rate) to Westbrook (31.9% career) is way downplaying how much of a black hole Westbrook was (and exaggerating how much Smart actually shoots).

In a fun bit of trivia, Westbrook's average missed FG per season (749.5) is basically exactly at Smart's career high for shots attempted (749). Smart shot too much for his percentages, but he doesn't hold a candle to Westbrook.

[Who]

In a fun bit of trivia, Westbrook's average missed FG per season (749.5) is basically exactly at Smart's career high for shots attempted (749).

That is awesome.

[green_bballers13]

Newsflash: out of touch old man talks smack about youngsters.

Jaylen and JB will benefit from having a healthy Porzingis, Brogdon, and Horford setting up for an open 3.

[Celtics4ever]

This is just  who Rick is as guy.  Vain, egotistical, and often offensive.  He is probably jealous of that money

"1. Rick Barry


    And then there’s Rick Barry.

    As a player, he was despised by his contemporaries for his arrogant demeanor. In the 1974-75 season, Barry averaged 30.6 points per game and led the Golden State Warriors to a championship, finishing just fourth in the MVP race (it was a player vote at the time [via Sports Illustrated]).

    As an analyst, he was overly critical and, in some instances, boorish. Once, while working a telecast during the 1980-81 season, he described Bill Russell, who was seated beside him, as having a "XXXXFRUITXX grin."

    And then there was the way he scolded Warriors fans at Chris Mullin’s jersey retirement ceremony this spring. Whether or not you agree that the fans had picked an appropriate time to protest owner Joe Lacob’s management of the team, Barry’s condescension was a page out of the book that his ego had spent nearly seven decades writing."

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1335425-the-10-most-egotistical-players-in-nba-history

Rick was a great player though.

[terra haute]

Newsflash: out of touch old man talks smack about youngsters.

Jaylen and JB will benefit from having a healthy Porzingis, Brogdon, and Horford setting up for an open 3.

How many yrs played and championships won do you have in the NBA?

[Vermont Green]

Newsflash: out of touch old man talks smack about youngsters.

Jaylen and JB will benefit from having a healthy Porzingis, Brogdon, and Horford setting up for an open 3.

How many yrs played and championships won do you have in the NBA?

Ouch...

And this isn't all about individual players.  It is a scheme thing too.  Porzingis should allow for a more diverse scheme that should lead to less pressure on Tatum and Brown to force the ball.  But if all we do is high pick and roll with everyone else standing around, you are still going to see some individual shot forcing.

[Kernewek]

Newsflash: out of touch old man talks smack about youngsters.

Jaylen and JB will benefit from having a healthy Porzingis, Brogdon, and Horford setting up for an open 3.

How many yrs played and championships won do you have in the NBA?

kids today don’t know about basketball’s unwritten rules - no one is ever allowed to point out the stupidity of someone else’s statements unless they shoot free throws underhanded and are universally regarded as unpleasant.

[86MaxwellSmart]

Maybe Rick is using tough love and the J's can use it for motivation.

[Moranis]

I think that statement is much more applicable to Brown than it is to Tatum.  Brown does tend to play hero ball too much given he is a poor passer.  He isn't Westbrook, that part is over the top, but Brown should scale that back some.  I'm mostly fine with how Tatum plays as the #1 option.  Gets to the line ok, decent passer, and generally takes care of the ball.  Sure there are times when all players get a bit too selfish, but I'm ok with Tatum doing that on occasion. 

Smart was the guy most like Westbrook offensively though.  Terrible shooter that just keeps shooting. It was so frustrating watching Smart. Glad we don't have to do that any more.

If you ignore what Westbrook actually was then, sure, I guess. But Smart never went above a 19.4% usage rate, while Westbrook has never dropped below 25.7% for a full season (and that was his sophomore season, he's been over 30% for 11 of his 15 seasons including the NBA/ABA record of 41.7% the year he won MVP, which is just absurd. Wilt no doubt beats him, but usage rate wasn't tracked back then). Even the Jays' highest usage rates can't compete with how much Westbrook has dominated the ball (7/15 seasons higher than Tatum's career high of 32.7% and 9/15 seasons above Brown's high of 31.4%). Comparing Smart (17.6% career usage rate) to Westbrook (31.9% career) is way downplaying how much of a black hole Westbrook was (and exaggerating how much Smart actually shoots).

In a fun bit of trivia, Westbrook's average missed FG per season (749.5) is basically exactly at Smart's career high for shots attempted (749). Smart shot too much for his percentages, but he doesn't hold a candle to Westbrook.

Smart is a career 38.6% shooter from the field.  He is one of the worst shooters in league history.  Literally every shot he takes (that isn't at the rim) is a bad shot.  And Smart has actually taken significantly more 3 pointers than Westbrook per game at 4.9 vs. 3.7.  Westbrook is a much better player than Smart over their careers, but Smart was absolutely the player on the Celtics that most closely resembled Westbrook offensively.  A worse not as good version, but still the closest match.

[ozgod]

“Both (Jaylen) Brown and (Jayson) Tatum suffer from what I call….(Russell) Westbrook syndrome. Westbrook is an incredible talent. I love how hard he plays, but he tries to force things. In the game of basketball, you should always be taking what the defense gives you… Both Jaylen and Jayson….they have a tendency to force things and end up getting a lot of turnovers,” Barry exclaimed.

Yes I looked at this because a friend of mine brought up Rick's comments to me a couple of weeks ago. Rick has actually had a higher turnover ratio (% of a player's possessions that end in a turnover) over his career than the Jays. Over his career (keeping in mind that there was a gap between 1972 to 1976 in which turnover stats were not available from the NBA) Rick had a career turnover ratio of 12.2%, vs Jaylen 11.4 and Jayson 10.4.




But the Jays aren't competing with Rick who played 50 years ago, so I looked at where they sat last season in terms of turnover ratio in the league. When you look at the list of players ranked by their turnover ratio last season, in descending order, the Jays aren't even in the top 50. They aren't even on the first page (which I couldn't even fully fit in my screenshot below). Westbrick is there at No8 with 13.2%, Jaylen is No.61 at 10.1%, just behind Steph Curry, while Jayson is at 93rd at 9.0, just behind Desmond Bane. Smartacus, who was mentioned earlier, is No14 at 12.1%, just around Barry's career turnover ratio.

The obvious caveat here is we don't know when these turnovers took place, or how impactful they are - for us as fans, because we're invested in the team, we will remember every turnover, probably much more so than the solid plays they made. Like Jaylen's eight turnovers in the decider against Miami, none of us will ever forget any of them, for years. The same with JT's turnovers against GS last Finals. It's just human nature...but it would be interesting to know the impact of each turnover. How many were in high pressure situations? How many ended up being big contributors to losses? Jaylen's eight obviously cost us a Finals spot, we know that much. But just looking at the data in aggregate, I wouldn't say they are turnover machines, certainly not at Westbrick's level.



The full list is here at https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced?CF=GP*GE*50:MIN*GE*25&dir=D&sort=TM_TOV_PCT

[timpiker]

Do they J's sometimes force it?  Hell yes.  JB never saw 5 players he didn't think he could dribble through.

[Roy H.]

Do they J's sometimes force it?  Hell yes.  JB never saw 5 players he didn't think he could dribble through.

They do, sure.  But, most players force it occasionally, particularly when their teammates are shooting terribly.