The unspoken "real" issue with these celtics...

[Moranis]

Brown deserved his 2nd team appearance, but that doesn't mean he is a top 10 player.  Top 10 season, sure, player, nope.  Those are no where near the same thing. 

On June 14, the Ringer put out a list of the top 125 for the up coming season, and Brown was not in the top 20.  He was 22. They had Tatum at 6 (he was ahead of Luka who was 7, but the other 5 I had they had though a different order).  Brown was  between Bam and Trae with Edwards and George rounding out the top 25.  They had Towns outside the top 30 at 31.  Irving came in at 40 (which seems low even for me).  Porzingis was the next Celtic at 61 (listed as a wizard). Horford was 67, White 68, Rob 70 (Smart was 71), and Brogdon was 87.

So that list says what I've been saying, the Celtics are very good in the 4-7 range of the roster, but lack a lot of the top end talent that traditionally wins post season series.  And for as good as Tatum is, he isn't in that first class of player (at least not yet , if ever).

Tatum isn't in that first class of plaers yet Embiid is? The guy who hasn't made it past the 2nd round?

If he's not he's om the cusp of it. I think the majority of the league would disagree with you and take Tatum in a heartbeat. Only Celtic to average over 30ppg. Yet he's not on a path to be a great player...

I never said Embiid was either.  You are doing an awful lot of projecting and not actually reading.

[Vermont Green]

Brown deserved his 2nd team appearance, but that doesn't mean he is a top 10 player.  Top 10 season, sure, player, nope.  Those are no where near the same thing. 

On June 14, the Ringer put out a list of the top 125 for the up coming season, and Brown was not in the top 20.  He was 22. They had Tatum at 6 (he was ahead of Luka who was 7, but the other 5 I had they had though a different order).  Brown was  between Bam and Trae with Edwards and George rounding out the top 25.  They had Towns outside the top 30 at 31.  Irving came in at 40 (which seems low even for me).  Porzingis was the next Celtic at 61 (listed as a wizard). Horford was 67, White 68, Rob 70 (Smart was 71), and Brogdon was 87.

So that list says what I've been saying, the Celtics are very good in the 4-7 range of the roster, but lack a lot of the top end talent that traditionally wins post season series.  And for as good as Tatum is, he isn't in that first class of player (at least not yet , if ever).

So Tatum at 6 and Brown at 22.  That isn't unreasonable.  For Tatum, I am not sure Durant is still better than him, but that is fine.  Tatum is 5 to 7 on most bingo cards.  That seems fair.

It gets harder to rank say 15-30, there is a lot of parity.  I think they did a pretty good job.  Brown could easily end up top 20, but call it top 25.  How different really is top 20 vs. top 25.  Overall, I think they have some of the older players (Kawhi, Durant, Harden, George) all ranked a little high.  Maybe Davis and LeBron too.  But Brown at 22 is fair enough.

And I am going to make a bold prediction that Porzingis (61) is going to end up closer to Sabonis (20) or Markkanen (28) or even Adebayo (21) than he is to Nic Claxton (59) or Jarrett Allen (63).  I understand that he is hard to rank but even if he cracks the top 50, that is still pretty good for your 3rd best player.

[kraidstar]

Boston lost series the last 2 seasons it could (maybe should) have won, however Boston also won series in each of those playoffs where the best player on the floor was on the other team and who arguably were also more talented in the top 5 or 6 players. And the Warriors also had the best player in that series.

This board has fallen hard on the false media narrative that the Celts are the deepest and most talented team in the sport.  It is nonsense and always has been.

The Celtics have been to the conference title 5 times since drafting Jaylen Brown. We've beaten Giannis twice. We've beaten Embiid three times. It is reasonable to start questioning why they keep getting to the goal line but can't punch it in.

without a top 5 player and just 1 top 20 player, that is pretty good.  Actually that is overachieving.  Significantly overachieving.

Hahahaha. They must love you in the lawyer world. The bs spin just flows so shamelessly

[Moranis]

Brown deserved his 2nd team appearance, but that doesn't mean he is a top 10 player.  Top 10 season, sure, player, nope.  Those are no where near the same thing. 

On June 14, the Ringer put out a list of the top 125 for the up coming season, and Brown was not in the top 20.  He was 22. They had Tatum at 6 (he was ahead of Luka who was 7, but the other 5 I had they had though a different order).  Brown was  between Bam and Trae with Edwards and George rounding out the top 25.  They had Towns outside the top 30 at 31.  Irving came in at 40 (which seems low even for me).  Porzingis was the next Celtic at 61 (listed as a wizard). Horford was 67, White 68, Rob 70 (Smart was 71), and Brogdon was 87.

So that list says what I've been saying, the Celtics are very good in the 4-7 range of the roster, but lack a lot of the top end talent that traditionally wins post season series.  And for as good as Tatum is, he isn't in that first class of player (at least not yet , if ever).

So Tatum at 6 and Brown at 22.  That isn't unreasonable.  For Tatum, I am not sure Durant is still better than him, but that is fine.  Tatum is 5 to 7 on most bingo cards.  That seems fair.

It gets harder to rank say 15-30, there is a lot of parity.  I think they did a pretty good job.  Brown could easily end up top 20, but call it top 25.  How different really is top 20 vs. top 25.  Overall, I think they have some of the older players (Kawhi, Durant, Harden, George) all ranked a little high.  Maybe Davis and LeBron too.  But Brown at 22 is fair enough.

And I am going to make a bold prediction that Porzingis (61) is going to end up closer to Sabonis (20) or Markkanen (28) or even Adebayo (21) than he is to Nic Claxton (59) or Jarrett Allen (63).  I understand that he is hard to rank but even if he cracks the top 50, that is still pretty good for your 3rd best player.

It is fine, but here are the rankings of other top teams (I went through top 66 - so higher than Al)

Top contenders
Den - 1, 16, 45, 62
GS - 2, 34, 46, 48, 56
Mil - 3, 38, 49, 54
Pho - 4, 10, 42, 66
Phi - 5, 19, 55
Bos - 6, 22, 62

If healthy could easily win a title based on top 2
LAC - 8, 25
Mia - 9, 21
LAL - 11, 12

Probably 1 piece away (or need a young guy to take a leap)
Dal - 7, 40
Cle - 15, 35, 36, 64
Sac - 17, 20
Mem - 18, 33, 39
Min - 24, 31, 52
NYC - 26, 43
NO - 29, 30

All of the top contenders have a player ranked higher than Tatum, many have a different player ranked higher than Brown, and all have at least their 3rd player ranked higher than Zinger.  And this is the highest Tatum has been ranked and Brown has been in that range for a season or two. So the fact that Boston has over achieved (while a team like the Sixers has under achieved) has clouded judgment on the Celtics nationally. 

[mobilija]

Brown deserved his 2nd team appearance, but that doesn't mean he is a top 10 player.  Top 10 season, sure, player, nope.  Those are no where near the same thing. 

On June 14, the Ringer put out a list of the top 125 for the up coming season, and Brown was not in the top 20.  He was 22. They had Tatum at 6 (he was ahead of Luka who was 7, but the other 5 I had they had though a different order).  Brown was  between Bam and Trae with Edwards and George rounding out the top 25.  They had Towns outside the top 30 at 31.  Irving came in at 40 (which seems low even for me).  Porzingis was the next Celtic at 61 (listed as a wizard). Horford was 67, White 68, Rob 70 (Smart was 71), and Brogdon was 87.

So that list says what I've been saying, the Celtics are very good in the 4-7 range of the roster, but lack a lot of the top end talent that traditionally wins post season series.  And for as good as Tatum is, he isn't in that first class of player (at least not yet , if ever).

So Tatum at 6 and Brown at 22.  That isn't unreasonable.  For Tatum, I am not sure Durant is still better than him, but that is fine.  Tatum is 5 to 7 on most bingo cards.  That seems fair.

It gets harder to rank say 15-30, there is a lot of parity.  I think they did a pretty good job.  Brown could easily end up top 20, but call it top 25.  How different really is top 20 vs. top 25.  Overall, I think they have some of the older players (Kawhi, Durant, Harden, George) all ranked a little high.  Maybe Davis and LeBron too.  But Brown at 22 is fair enough.

And I am going to make a bold prediction that Porzingis (61) is going to end up closer to Sabonis (20) or Markkanen (28) or even Adebayo (21) than he is to Nic Claxton (59) or Jarrett Allen (63).  I understand that he is hard to rank but even if he cracks the top 50, that is still pretty good for your 3rd best player.

It is fine, but here are the rankings of other top teams (I went through top 66 - so higher than Al)

Top contenders
Den - 1, 16, 45, 62
GS - 2, 34, 46, 48, 56
Mil - 3, 38, 49, 54
Pho - 4, 10, 42, 66
Phi - 5, 19, 55
Bos - 6, 22, 62

If healthy could easily win a title based on top 2
LAC - 8, 25
Mia - 9, 21
LAL - 11, 12

Probably 1 piece away (or need a young guy to take a leap)
Dal - 7, 40
Cle - 15, 35, 36, 64
Sac - 17, 20
Mem - 18, 33, 39
Min - 24, 31, 52
NYC - 26, 43
NO - 29, 30

All of the top contenders have a player ranked higher than Tatum, many have a different player ranked higher than Brown, and all have at least their 3rd player ranked higher than Zinger.  And this is the highest Tatum has been ranked and Brown has been in that range for a season or two. So the fact that Boston has over achieved (while a team like the Sixers has under achieved) has clouded judgment on the Celtics nationally.

Some things:

You have 62 on 2 different teams.

Do you really think Maxey is better than Porzingis, as the rankings suggest? Who would u start a team with?

At some point don't you believe that Philly isn't underachieving and Boston isn't overachieving, that despite what your calculus says, Boston is just better?

Bottom line, u rely waaaay too much on these subjective numbers. Basketball isn't won doing Math.

[gouki88]

I have Tatum at 7th in my list (behind Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Durant, Embiid, and Luka).  He could get up to 3 depending on the season and health of others, but I suspect he will be around that spot all year (and if guys like Kawhi, Davis, etc. somehow stay healthy they could move ahead of him). I have been one of the biggest Tatum supporters on this blog.  I've said for years, the team needs to build around him and play to his strengths as the team goes as he goes.  Tatum drives the wins and losses and has since his rookie year.  All that said, he isn't a top 5 player and only recently became a top 10 player.  The team having the level of sustained success it has had is a testament to coaching and overachieving players, as this team has pretty consistently defied historical precedent in the playoffs (i.e. winning series when the best player was on the other team).

When Embiid stops being one of the worst playoff chokers we've ever seen from an MVP, then I might be more comfortable locking him in the top 3.

His last 4 playoff series (which is 2 years, because he never gets far) he has stunk it up. Long may it continue.

[Celtics2021]

I have Tatum at 7th in my list (behind Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Durant, Embiid, and Luka).  He could get up to 3 depending on the season and health of others, but I suspect he will be around that spot all year (and if guys like Kawhi, Davis, etc. somehow stay healthy they could move ahead of him). I have been one of the biggest Tatum supporters on this blog.  I've said for years, the team needs to build around him and play to his strengths as the team goes as he goes.  Tatum drives the wins and losses and has since his rookie year.  All that said, he isn't a top 5 player and only recently became a top 10 player.  The team having the level of sustained success it has had is a testament to coaching and overachieving players, as this team has pretty consistently defied historical precedent in the playoffs (i.e. winning series when the best player was on the other team).

When Embiid stops being one of the worst playoff chokers we've ever seen from an MVP, then I might be more comfortable locking him in the top 3.

His last 4 playoff series (which is 2 years, because he never gets far) he has stunk it up. Long may it continue.

It’s pretty crazy that the last time the Sixers went to the conference finals was in 2001.

[gouki88]

I have Tatum at 7th in my list (behind Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Durant, Embiid, and Luka).  He could get up to 3 depending on the season and health of others, but I suspect he will be around that spot all year (and if guys like Kawhi, Davis, etc. somehow stay healthy they could move ahead of him). I have been one of the biggest Tatum supporters on this blog.  I've said for years, the team needs to build around him and play to his strengths as the team goes as he goes.  Tatum drives the wins and losses and has since his rookie year.  All that said, he isn't a top 5 player and only recently became a top 10 player.  The team having the level of sustained success it has had is a testament to coaching and overachieving players, as this team has pretty consistently defied historical precedent in the playoffs (i.e. winning series when the best player was on the other team).

When Embiid stops being one of the worst playoff chokers we've ever seen from an MVP, then I might be more comfortable locking him in the top 3.

His last 4 playoff series (which is 2 years, because he never gets far) he has stunk it up. Long may it continue.

It’s pretty crazy that the last time the Sixers went to the conference finals was in 2001.

It's absurd, especially when you look at the talent differential between those AI squads vs some of their teams under Doc

[Donoghus]

I have Tatum at 7th in my list (behind Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Durant, Embiid, and Luka).  He could get up to 3 depending on the season and health of others, but I suspect he will be around that spot all year (and if guys like Kawhi, Davis, etc. somehow stay healthy they could move ahead of him). I have been one of the biggest Tatum supporters on this blog.  I've said for years, the team needs to build around him and play to his strengths as the team goes as he goes.  Tatum drives the wins and losses and has since his rookie year.  All that said, he isn't a top 5 player and only recently became a top 10 player.  The team having the level of sustained success it has had is a testament to coaching and overachieving players, as this team has pretty consistently defied historical precedent in the playoffs (i.e. winning series when the best player was on the other team).

When Embiid stops being one of the worst playoff chokers we've ever seen from an MVP, then I might be more comfortable locking him in the top 3.

His last 4 playoff series (which is 2 years, because he never gets far) he has stunk it up. Long may it continue.

It’s pretty crazy that the last time the Sixers went to the conference finals was in 2001.

It's absurd, especially when you look at the talent differential between those AI squads vs some of their teams under Doc

Underachievers. 

[cman88]

This take that Celtics are just winning on pure grit and great coaching from Joe while having a talent discrepancy is just baffling to me 

Are we back in the IT4 era?

Why change the coaching staff or trade smart away? Celtics are just massive overachievers who don't belong. We should be happy as the 2nd best record we took it to 7 games against a play in team.
 

[gouki88]

I have Tatum at 7th in my list (behind Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Durant, Embiid, and Luka).  He could get up to 3 depending on the season and health of others, but I suspect he will be around that spot all year (and if guys like Kawhi, Davis, etc. somehow stay healthy they could move ahead of him). I have been one of the biggest Tatum supporters on this blog.  I've said for years, the team needs to build around him and play to his strengths as the team goes as he goes.  Tatum drives the wins and losses and has since his rookie year.  All that said, he isn't a top 5 player and only recently became a top 10 player.  The team having the level of sustained success it has had is a testament to coaching and overachieving players, as this team has pretty consistently defied historical precedent in the playoffs (i.e. winning series when the best player was on the other team).

When Embiid stops being one of the worst playoff chokers we've ever seen from an MVP, then I might be more comfortable locking him in the top 3.

His last 4 playoff series (which is 2 years, because he never gets far) he has stunk it up. Long may it continue.

It’s pretty crazy that the last time the Sixers went to the conference finals was in 2001.

It's absurd, especially when you look at the talent differential between those AI squads vs some of their teams under Doc

Underachievers. 

Led by the Underachiever in chief

[Moranis]

I have Tatum at 7th in my list (behind Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Durant, Embiid, and Luka).  He could get up to 3 depending on the season and health of others, but I suspect he will be around that spot all year (and if guys like Kawhi, Davis, etc. somehow stay healthy they could move ahead of him). I have been one of the biggest Tatum supporters on this blog.  I've said for years, the team needs to build around him and play to his strengths as the team goes as he goes.  Tatum drives the wins and losses and has since his rookie year.  All that said, he isn't a top 5 player and only recently became a top 10 player.  The team having the level of sustained success it has had is a testament to coaching and overachieving players, as this team has pretty consistently defied historical precedent in the playoffs (i.e. winning series when the best player was on the other team).

When Embiid stops being one of the worst playoff chokers we've ever seen from an MVP, then I might be more comfortable locking him in the top 3.

His last 4 playoff series (which is 2 years, because he never gets far) he has stunk it up. Long may it continue.

my guys were in order i.e. Embiid not top 3.  Not sure why you responded in that manner.

[gouki88]

I have Tatum at 7th in my list (behind Jokic, Giannis, Curry, Durant, Embiid, and Luka).  He could get up to 3 depending on the season and health of others, but I suspect he will be around that spot all year (and if guys like Kawhi, Davis, etc. somehow stay healthy they could move ahead of him). I have been one of the biggest Tatum supporters on this blog.  I've said for years, the team needs to build around him and play to his strengths as the team goes as he goes.  Tatum drives the wins and losses and has since his rookie year.  All that said, he isn't a top 5 player and only recently became a top 10 player.  The team having the level of sustained success it has had is a testament to coaching and overachieving players, as this team has pretty consistently defied historical precedent in the playoffs (i.e. winning series when the best player was on the other team).

When Embiid stops being one of the worst playoff chokers we've ever seen from an MVP, then I might be more comfortable locking him in the top 3.

His last 4 playoff series (which is 2 years, because he never gets far) he has stunk it up. Long may it continue.

my guys were in order i.e. Embiid not top 3.  Not sure why you responded in that manner.

I misread, but it doesn't matter, as the point still stands regardless of someone putting him in the top 3 or top 5

[Moranis]

Brown deserved his 2nd team appearance, but that doesn't mean he is a top 10 player.  Top 10 season, sure, player, nope.  Those are no where near the same thing. 

On June 14, the Ringer put out a list of the top 125 for the up coming season, and Brown was not in the top 20.  He was 22. They had Tatum at 6 (he was ahead of Luka who was 7, but the other 5 I had they had though a different order).  Brown was  between Bam and Trae with Edwards and George rounding out the top 25.  They had Towns outside the top 30 at 31.  Irving came in at 40 (which seems low even for me).  Porzingis was the next Celtic at 61 (listed as a wizard). Horford was 67, White 68, Rob 70 (Smart was 71), and Brogdon was 87.

So that list says what I've been saying, the Celtics are very good in the 4-7 range of the roster, but lack a lot of the top end talent that traditionally wins post season series.  And for as good as Tatum is, he isn't in that first class of player (at least not yet , if ever).

So Tatum at 6 and Brown at 22.  That isn't unreasonable.  For Tatum, I am not sure Durant is still better than him, but that is fine.  Tatum is 5 to 7 on most bingo cards.  That seems fair.

It gets harder to rank say 15-30, there is a lot of parity.  I think they did a pretty good job.  Brown could easily end up top 20, but call it top 25.  How different really is top 20 vs. top 25.  Overall, I think they have some of the older players (Kawhi, Durant, Harden, George) all ranked a little high.  Maybe Davis and LeBron too.  But Brown at 22 is fair enough.

And I am going to make a bold prediction that Porzingis (61) is going to end up closer to Sabonis (20) or Markkanen (28) or even Adebayo (21) than he is to Nic Claxton (59) or Jarrett Allen (63).  I understand that he is hard to rank but even if he cracks the top 50, that is still pretty good for your 3rd best player.

It is fine, but here are the rankings of other top teams (I went through top 66 - so higher than Al)

Top contenders
Den - 1, 16, 45, 62
GS - 2, 34, 46, 48, 56
Mil - 3, 38, 49, 54
Pho - 4, 10, 42, 66
Phi - 5, 19, 55
Bos - 6, 22, 62

If healthy could easily win a title based on top 2
LAC - 8, 25
Mia - 9, 21
LAL - 11, 12

Probably 1 piece away (or need a young guy to take a leap)
Dal - 7, 40
Cle - 15, 35, 36, 64
Sac - 17, 20
Mem - 18, 33, 39
Min - 24, 31, 52
NYC - 26, 43
NO - 29, 30

All of the top contenders have a player ranked higher than Tatum, many have a different player ranked higher than Brown, and all have at least their 3rd player ranked higher than Zinger.  And this is the highest Tatum has been ranked and Brown has been in that range for a season or two. So the fact that Boston has over achieved (while a team like the Sixers has under achieved) has clouded judgment on the Celtics nationally.

Some things:

You have 62 on 2 different teams.

Do you really think Maxey is better than Porzingis, as the rankings suggest? Who would u start a team with?

At some point don't you believe that Philly isn't underachieving and Boston isn't overachieving, that despite what your calculus says, Boston is just better?

Bottom line, u rely waaaay too much on these subjective numbers. Basketball isn't won doing Math.

Zinger is 61 not 62 (I mistyped it as I had mentioned that earlier). 

And yes I think Maxey is better than Porzingis and still has a ways to go.  I think he will top out in the top 25 range, especially when he gets more control of the offense (i.e. away from Harden).  Very smooth scorer, solid ball handler, improving passer, etc.

[gouki88]

Brown deserved his 2nd team appearance, but that doesn't mean he is a top 10 player.  Top 10 season, sure, player, nope.  Those are no where near the same thing. 

On June 14, the Ringer put out a list of the top 125 for the up coming season, and Brown was not in the top 20.  He was 22. They had Tatum at 6 (he was ahead of Luka who was 7, but the other 5 I had they had though a different order).  Brown was  between Bam and Trae with Edwards and George rounding out the top 25.  They had Towns outside the top 30 at 31.  Irving came in at 40 (which seems low even for me).  Porzingis was the next Celtic at 61 (listed as a wizard). Horford was 67, White 68, Rob 70 (Smart was 71), and Brogdon was 87.

So that list says what I've been saying, the Celtics are very good in the 4-7 range of the roster, but lack a lot of the top end talent that traditionally wins post season series.  And for as good as Tatum is, he isn't in that first class of player (at least not yet , if ever).

So Tatum at 6 and Brown at 22.  That isn't unreasonable.  For Tatum, I am not sure Durant is still better than him, but that is fine.  Tatum is 5 to 7 on most bingo cards.  That seems fair.

It gets harder to rank say 15-30, there is a lot of parity.  I think they did a pretty good job.  Brown could easily end up top 20, but call it top 25.  How different really is top 20 vs. top 25.  Overall, I think they have some of the older players (Kawhi, Durant, Harden, George) all ranked a little high.  Maybe Davis and LeBron too.  But Brown at 22 is fair enough.

And I am going to make a bold prediction that Porzingis (61) is going to end up closer to Sabonis (20) or Markkanen (28) or even Adebayo (21) than he is to Nic Claxton (59) or Jarrett Allen (63).  I understand that he is hard to rank but even if he cracks the top 50, that is still pretty good for your 3rd best player.

It is fine, but here are the rankings of other top teams (I went through top 66 - so higher than Al)

Top contenders
Den - 1, 16, 45, 62
GS - 2, 34, 46, 48, 56
Mil - 3, 38, 49, 54
Pho - 4, 10, 42, 66
Phi - 5, 19, 55
Bos - 6, 22, 62

If healthy could easily win a title based on top 2
LAC - 8, 25
Mia - 9, 21
LAL - 11, 12

Probably 1 piece away (or need a young guy to take a leap)
Dal - 7, 40
Cle - 15, 35, 36, 64
Sac - 17, 20
Mem - 18, 33, 39
Min - 24, 31, 52
NYC - 26, 43
NO - 29, 30

All of the top contenders have a player ranked higher than Tatum, many have a different player ranked higher than Brown, and all have at least their 3rd player ranked higher than Zinger.  And this is the highest Tatum has been ranked and Brown has been in that range for a season or two. So the fact that Boston has over achieved (while a team like the Sixers has under achieved) has clouded judgment on the Celtics nationally.

Some things:

You have 62 on 2 different teams.

Do you really think Maxey is better than Porzingis, as the rankings suggest? Who would u start a team with?

At some point don't you believe that Philly isn't underachieving and Boston isn't overachieving, that despite what your calculus says, Boston is just better?

Bottom line, u rely waaaay too much on these subjective numbers. Basketball isn't won doing Math.

Zinger is 61 not 62 (I mistyped it as I had mentioned that earlier). 

And yes I think Maxey is better than Porzingis and still has a ways to go.  I think he will top out in the top 25 range, especially when he gets more control of the offense (i.e. away from Harden).  Very smooth scorer, solid ball handler, improving passer, etc.

Maxey over Porzingis is just hilarious