Poll: Where does Kobe rank among the NBA's greatest players?

[Jvalin]

Basketball reference currently has Kobe at 10.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html

It ALSO has Larry at 9, so............

They got LeBron at #31!

(click on image to enlarge)



Is this for real?

That list was put together nearly a decade ago.  2011.

It clearly says from 2004 to 2020 next to LeBron's name.

edit: My bad. Just saw the comment at the top of the page.

[Donoghus]

Basketball reference currently has Kobe at 10.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html

It ALSO has Larry at 9, so............

They got LeBron at #31!

(click on image to enlarge)



Is this for real?

That list was put together nearly a decade ago.  2011.

It clearly says from 2004 to 2020 next to LeBron's name.

Look above the list.   The stuff in the list is probably pulling from live to date.

[Jvalin]

Basketball reference currently has Kobe at 10.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html

It ALSO has Larry at 9, so............

They got LeBron at #31!

(click on image to enlarge)



Is this for real?

That list was put together nearly a decade ago.  2011.

It clearly says from 2004 to 2020 next to LeBron's name.

Look above the list.   The stuff in the list is probably pulling from live to date.

Oh OK, my bad. Just saw it.

[GreenFaith1819]

Basketball reference currently has Kobe at 10.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/slam_500_greatest.html

It ALSO has Larry at 9, so............

They got LeBron at #31!

(click on image to enlarge)



Is this for real?

That list was put together nearly a decade ago.  2011.

My bad good catch

[Moranis]

Slame redid their top 100 in 2018 and had Kobe all the way up to 5 behind only Michael, Lebron, Magic, and Kareem.  Must have been totally different people because their top 5 in 2011 was Michael, Wilt, Bill, Shaq, Oscar.  I have no idea how in 7 years where almost no one played a game, they had such crazy movement in their lists. 

[mmmmm]

Mount Olympus
Russell
Wilt

Mount Rushmore
Jordon
Lebron
Bird
Magic
Lebron
Kareem

Empire State Building
Duncan
Olajuwan
West
Shaq
Oscar

Best of the Rest (in "rough" order)
Garnett
Moses
Julius
Curry
Havlicek
Cousy
Dirk
Baylor
The Admiral
Kobe
Durant
Barkley
McHale
Karl Malone
Heinson
Harden
Pippen
Gary Payton
Bill Walton

Probably will be up there:  Giannis, Harden, Doncic, Klay

If my list seems Celtic-heavy, that's for a reason.   They won all those titles by having some of the greatest players of all time.  The Lakers have pretty good representation on this list as well for the same reason.

There are a lot of guys I consider greats that I can understand arguments for bumping up into that Best of the Rest group.   Does Heinson deserve to be their over Pierce?  Does Harden deserve to be higher based on raw scoring volume?  Karl Malone is probably underrated in my list.  Heck, so is probably David Robinson.  Tony Parker and Chris Paul probably deserve some love.   Jeeze, where do you put George Mikan?   Walton deserves to be higher if you consider his college career as well.

But ultimately without getting too caught up in exact order, it's pretty clear to me that I would have a hard time putting Kobe into the top 20 and definitely not in the top 15.   It was just too easy to spit out a lot of names before I got to his.

[Tr1boy]

For me yes. 1st 3 with Shaq. But last 2 he was the only big name.

In no order

1st tier
Kareem
Russell
Jordan
Bryant
Duncan
Magic

a notch below
Lebron
Dwade
Shaq
Hakeem the dream
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
Bird
Mchale

Lucky charms
Horace Grant
Rober Horry
Steve Kerr
Derek Fisher
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker
60s Celtics

Kobe ahead of Bird, Bron & Shaq is blasphemy!

Why?

Kobe won more championships. And it wasn't only one or teaming up with another megastar(s) at the prime of their careers.

End of the day championships is the highest level accomplishment as long there is career stat totals to accompany it imo

[Emmette Bryant]

Mount Olympus
Russell
Wilt

Mount Rushmore
Jordon
Lebron
Bird
Magic
Lebron
Kareem

Empire State Building
Duncan
Olajuwan
West
Shaq
Oscar

Best of the Rest (in "rough" order)
Garnett
Moses
Julius
Curry
Havlicek
Cousy
Dirk
Baylor
The Admiral
Kobe
Durant
Barkley
McHale
Karl Malone
Heinson
Harden
Pippen
Gary Payton
Bill Walton

Probably will be up there:  Giannis, Harden, Doncic, Klay

If my list seems Celtic-heavy, that's for a reason.   They won all those titles by having some of the greatest players of all time.  The Lakers have pretty good representation on this list as well for the same reason.

There are a lot of guys I consider greats that I can understand arguments for bumping up into that Best of the Rest group.   Does Heinson deserve to be their over Pierce?  Does Harden deserve to be higher based on raw scoring volume?  Karl Malone is probably underrated in my list.  Heck, so is probably David Robinson.  Tony Parker and Chris Paul probably deserve some love.   Jeeze, where do you put George Mikan?   Walton deserves to be higher if you consider his college career as well.

But ultimately without getting too caught up in exact order, it's pretty clear to me that I would have a hard time putting Kobe into the top 20 and definitely not in the top 15.   It was just too easy to spit out a lot of names before I got to his.

This is a pretty good list TP.  I like where you put Kobe, right around the level of John Havlicek.

[Somebody]

Also am I the only one here who thinks that KG is a top 10 player of all time?

Yes I think you are.  Look at any of the lists posted above and tell me who you would knock out of the top-10 to make room for KG.

I actually posted my top 15 list in this thread earlier on lol.

12-15 range to me. Don't see him cracking the prestigious top 11, but I also don't see him dropping below the likes of West and Doctor J due to his longevity.

This is probably my top 15 list (in order, but I'm open to arguments ranking players in the same range differently):
Tier 1
LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell

Tier 2
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain

Tier 3
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson

Tier 4
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone

Btw awards mean absolutely nothing to me so please don't pull out stuff like Moses' 3 MVPs to pump up a player if you're replying to my list lol (no offence, I just think that awards are absolute crap at evaluating a player's "goodness").

your disdain for 80's basketball is a bit much.  Garnett is not better than Bird and Magic.  Not even close.  And I already knew you hate Moses Malone for some strange reason.  He was the best player in the world for a 5 year period, playing in a time with 3 other top 10 players all time.

Disdain for 80s basketball? Is that why Jordan and Kareem are in my top 4? FWIW Bird and Magic would've joined the top 4 if they didn't have injury/HIV problems and played until the mid 90s at a high level. I've been pretty clear with how their longevity hamstrung them in my list, not because they didn't peak high enough.

And maybe you love Moses Malone for some strange reason, saying that he was the best player in the world in a 5 year period doesn't sound convincing at all when Kareem and Bird played during that stretch.

Jordan made his business in the 90's and Kareem in the 70's.  Those are the decades of their true prime years. 

Jordan played 930 games in Chicago (added 142 in Washington).  Bird played in 897 games (and was 35 when he retired) and Magic played in 906 (874 without the last year in 96).  Unless you are really relying on Jordan's 2 Washington seasons it seems strange to view the longevity that much differently.  Also, Russell only had 963.  It just seems like a strange place to draw the line. 

You can disagree all you want, but Moses Malone was in fact the best player in the world over a 5 year period.  I know you hate awards, but the writers were not wrong in giving Moses the 3 MVP's during that stretch.  He was that good and that dominant over that stretch.  Every bit as good as Kareem, Bird, and Magic during that stretch (a couple of seasons pre-dated Larry and Magic).

Kareem actually had a really valuable "career" in the 80s though, and Jordan had a peak year in the 80s. Btw Jordan also has longevity issues that prevent him from being the GOAT in my list, it was his insane peak and consistent prime that separates him from Magic and Larry.

I'm also looking at longevity in era - Russell didn't play a ton of games when he's compared with players in the 80s and 90s, but his longevity was actually quite strong in the 60s (you didn't have as many players who played well into their 30s, and most players also started pretty late). It's not a strange place to draw the line when you're measuring a player's impact in his own era, you can't fault them for playing against the competition that was available at the time.

And you can defend those awards all you want, but Moses was not the best player in the world during that 5 year stretch. The writers were very wrong in giving him the '79 MVP (it looks stranger and stranger over time the more people look at it) and overlooked Bird when Moses got two more in '82 and '83. I wouldn't disagree with the argument that he was close to Bird and Kareem in the early 80s (I think he was clearly better than Kareem in '83 FWIW), but even a young Bird was a bit better than him throughout his best years, and '79 Kareem dwarfed '79 Malone. A 5 year stretch where you're a top 5 player with some years as the 2nd best player on the planet is nothing to sneeze at, it doesn't take away too much from him unless you actually think of him as a top 15 player of all time (I have him in the 20-25 range).

[Somebody]

Also am I the only one here who thinks that KG is a top 10 player of all time?

Yes I think you are.  Look at any of the lists posted above and tell me who you would knock out of the top-10 to make room for KG.

I actually posted my top 15 list in this thread earlier on lol.

12-15 range to me. Don't see him cracking the prestigious top 11, but I also don't see him dropping below the likes of West and Doctor J due to his longevity.

This is probably my top 15 list (in order, but I'm open to arguments ranking players in the same range differently):
Tier 1
LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell

Tier 2
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain

Tier 3
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson

Tier 4
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone

Btw awards mean absolutely nothing to me so please don't pull out stuff like Moses' 3 MVPs to pump up a player if you're replying to my list lol (no offence, I just think that awards are absolute crap at evaluating a player's "goodness").

your disdain for 80's basketball is a bit much.  Garnett is not better than Bird and Magic.  Not even close.  And I already knew you hate Moses Malone for some strange reason.  He was the best player in the world for a 5 year period, playing in a time with 3 other top 10 players all time.

Disdain for 80s basketball? Is that why Jordan and Kareem are in my top 4? FWIW Bird and Magic would've joined the top 4 if they didn't have injury/HIV problems and played until the mid 90s at a high level. I've been pretty clear with how their longevity hamstrung them in my list, not because they didn't peak high enough.

And maybe you love Moses Malone for some strange reason, saying that he was the best player in the world in a 5 year period doesn't sound convincing at all when Kareem and Bird played during that stretch.

Jordan made his business in the 90's and Kareem in the 70's.  Those are the decades of their true prime years. 

Jordan played 930 games in Chicago (added 142 in Washington).  Bird played in 897 games (and was 35 when he retired) and Magic played in 906 (874 without the last year in 96).  Unless you are really relying on Jordan's 2 Washington seasons it seems strange to view the longevity that much differently.  Also, Russell only had 963.  It just seems like a strange place to draw the line. 

You can disagree all you want, but Moses Malone was in fact the best player in the world over a 5 year period.  I know you hate awards, but the writers were not wrong in giving Moses the 3 MVP's during that stretch.  He was that good and that dominant over that stretch.  Every bit as good as Kareem, Bird, and Magic during that stretch (a couple of seasons pre-dated Larry and Magic).

Agree completely on Moses. During that '79-'85 run, Moses was dominant and he was clearly the best big during that time and either the best or 2nd best player in the world during those years and deserving of those MVP awards. He carried that Houston team to the Finals and was THE difference between Philly and everyone else in '83 because no one could stop him down low, much like no one could for the 3-4 years before that.

Are you sure about '79 and '80? Kareem was still in the tail end of his prime and was a great two way anchor, the team results also like him in those final prime years as the lead dog before Magic hit his stride (strong team numbers on offence and defence, excellent point differential, deep playoff runs with one championship). He was also the best player in the '80 finals. I understand Moses being around the same level in '81 and '82 and then separating himself in '83 due to Kareem's age, but I do find it quite baffling that he was considered to be better than Kareem in '79 and '80.

[Somebody]

I think it makes the most sense to think of the NBA greats in terms of eras.


50s and earlier --

60s - Bill Russell and the Celts owned this era ... Wilt was a frequent nemesis

70s - Jerry West, Kareem, Oscar Robertson and later Doctor J

80s - Bird vs Magic ... Isiah Thomas on the tail end

90s - Jordan, with a bit of Hakeem, Ewing, and David Robinson

00s - Kobe & Shaq vs Duncan and Nash ... Garnett and Dirk on the tail end.  To me Duncan is the signature player here.

10s - LeBron is the signature player here, with Curry's Warriors also a headliner ... Harden and Durant deserve mention



When I look at it this way, Kobe is clearly one of the "signature names" when you're talking about the history of the NBA.  But during his era, he was just one of a half dozen or so guys who defined the league.

Within his own era, Kobe was beloved / hated and had an enormous cultural impact.  However I would argue that his impact on the court was less than Shaq and Duncan.  I think you could also argue that Nash (with D'Antoni) had a greater hand in influencing where the style of play leaguewide was headed.  Kobe was more of a holdover of the older 90s era style of play.



I tend to think that any of the guys who defined their era -- Russell, Kareem, Bird & Magic, Jordan, Duncan, and LeBron -- has an argument for a spot near the top of the list, if not the very top.  In some ways it's kind of silly to argue differences between them.  The game and the league has changed a great deal over the years, and continues to change.


I don't think Kobe belongs in the same conversation as those guys, though.  He's a step above guys like Isiah, Malone, Garnett, Dirk, and Nash, probably a step below Shaq, Wilt, and Hakeem.


Lots of book left to be written on Curry, Durant, Harden, Giannis.

The 50s had Pettit as their only megastar after the shot clock (imo a good cut-off point from prehistoric and modern basketball). Top 40 player of all time to me

[gouki88]

For me yes. 1st 3 with Shaq. But last 2 he was the only big name.

In no order

1st tier
Kareem
Russell
Jordan
Bryant
Duncan
Magic

a notch below
Lebron
Dwade
Shaq
Hakeem the dream
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
Bird
Mchale

Lucky charms
Horace Grant
Rober Horry
Steve Kerr
Derek Fisher
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker
60s Celtics

Kobe ahead of Bird, Bron & Shaq is blasphemy!

Why?

Kobe won more championships. And it wasn't only one or teaming up with another megastar(s) at the prime of their careers.

End of the day championships is the highest level accomplishment as long there is career stat totals to accompany it imo

If your essential be-all and end-all of this discussion is rings then I don’t really have anything to respond with.

[Somebody]

For me yes. 1st 3 with Shaq. But last 2 he was the only big name.

In no order

1st tier
Kareem
Russell
Jordan
Bryant
Duncan
Magic

a notch below
Lebron
Dwade
Shaq
Hakeem the dream
Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
Bird
Mchale

Lucky charms
Horace Grant
Rober Horry
Steve Kerr
Derek Fisher
Manu Ginobili
Tony Parker
60s Celtics

Kobe ahead of Bird, Bron & Shaq is blasphemy!

Why?

Kobe won more championships. And it wasn't only one or teaming up with another megastar(s) at the prime of their careers.

End of the day championships is the highest level accomplishment as long there is career stat totals to accompany it imo

If your essential be-all and end-all of this discussion is rings then I don’t really have anything to respond with.

Ringz, Erneh!

[Rondo9]

If Rings mattered then why isn't Bill Russell on top?

[Jvalin]

If Rings mattered then why isn't Bill Russell on top?

The way I see it, rings matter when comparing guys from the same tier. For instance, I'd rank Dirk and KG above Malone and Barkley, simply because they got 1 ring.

Rings don't matter when comparing guys from different tiers. For instance, Kobe got more rings than Bird/Oscar/Wilt/Shaq/Dream, but imo all these guys were clearly better than Kobe.