Poll: Where does Kobe rank among the NBA's greatest players?

[Moranis]

I think all of Kobe's awards were well-earned.

Doesn't make sense - now - to try and discredit them.

Oh, believe me, I was discrediting his awards while he was getting them, not just now.

There is probably a long thread somewhere deep in the archives where most of this blog were openly bemoaning, deservedly so, that KG didn't get that MVP award. Discrediting his awards is not something new, not on this blog, not by me.

I think it is hard to beat those regular season stats from Kobe for that year.

KG was instrumental for BOS that year but from a defensive standpoint. KG did get DPOY, though.

Unfortunately - defensive stalwarts never win MVP awards unless they score a bunch. KG - by his nature - wasn't going to kill you with his offense.

Taking KG and his defensive and winning aside.  One of these players was Kobe, the other was Lebron from that 2008 season.

28.3 p, 6.3 r, 5.4 a, 1.8 s, 0.5 b, 3.1 t, 2.8 f, 49.0% 2PT, 36.1% 3PT, 84.0% FT (57.6 TS%)

30.0 p, 7.9 r, 7.2 a, 1.8 s, 1.1 s, 3.4 r, 2.2 f, 53.1% 2PT, 31.5% 3PT, 71.2% FT (56.8 TS%)

And while Lebron didn't make an All Defense Team, starting the very next year he was a 1st Team All Defense member for the next 5 seasons (with a 2nd Team).  So just like MVP voting, the writers weren't quite ready to give Lebron his due, but Lebron was just flat out better than Kobe that year by virtually every statistical metric (except longer shooting)

Kobe won that award solely because it was his time and he was "due", but KG was more valuable for wins and losses, Lebron was statistically better basically across the board, and Chris Paul was the best combination of KG/Lebron.  I mean Chris Paul lead the Hornets to 56 wins and lead the league in both assists and steals.  In addition, Paul lead the league in WS with 17.8.  Lebron was 2nd with 15.2 followed by Amar'e and then Kobe in 4th (KG was tied for 6th).  Paul actually finished 2nd, KG 3rd, and Lebron 4th in MVP voting that year, but all 3 had better and more valuable seasons than Kobe did.  This was an award given to Kobe because he had been in the league a long time and hadn't yet won one. 

[Somebody]

I think all of Kobe's awards were well-earned.

Doesn't make sense - now - to try and discredit them.

Oh, believe me, I was discrediting his awards while he was getting them, not just now.

There is probably a long thread somewhere deep in the archives where most of this blog were openly bemoaning, deservedly so, that KG didn't get that MVP award. Discrediting his awards is not something new, not on this blog, not by me.

I think it is hard to beat those regular season stats from Kobe for that year.

KG was instrumental for BOS that year but from a defensive standpoint. KG did get DPOY, though.

Unfortunately - defensive stalwarts never win MVP awards unless they score a bunch. KG - by his nature - wasn't going to kill you with his offense.

Which really makes you wonder whether the basketball minds of the 60s were on to something when they kept on correctly naming Russell the MVP a bunch of times throughout the 60s - defence matters A LOT when you dig deep into the numbers, and it jives with the eye test as well.

Yup. KG anchored THE best defensive team of the last 25 to 30 years. KG didn't have the offensive counting stats but he made up for it with ridiculous defense both as an individual and as the anchor to a historically great team defense. That should have counted for so much more than it did in the minds of so many voters that year. People forget. That team started 29-3 and it was all because KG came here, changed the culture and demanded everyone play their best defense every minute on the floor. He was that year's MVP.

I think people are taught to just value other things more in basketball - for example flashy isolation scoring with ball pounding, ball dominant assists and impressive shotblocking/ball-stripping instead of elite frontcourt floor spacing, GOAT level big man complementary passing and GOAT level help defence.

So...SO..true, Nick and Somebody.

THIS guy made sure our Celtics got that kind of Defensive recognition



He ENSURED that The League RECOGNIZED our Celtics Teams for DEFENSIVE efforts...look how many of our guys got DEFENSIVE recognition through the years.

I even remember reading somewhere that the league was upset with Red in the early 2000s because he was insisting that the All Star players played defense, LOL....can't find that info anywhere on Google (yet)..

I can see that happening.

Red would've LOVED KG...I know Russell did.

Great stuff! Now put KG into your top 10 jk

Oh don't worry - he IS, in my heart.

In past Historical drafts on here I've paired KG with Kareem....paired him with Hakeem....wanted to pair him with Shaq this time around.

Kevin Garnett is just as likely to make a clutch DEFENSIVE play as Kobe was to making a clutch OFFENSIVE play.

Offense fills the seats...sells tickets. Nothing wrong with that.

I wanted to pair KG with the Admiral tbh .

[Somebody]

Top 20. I also think several current players are well on pace to overtake him. Which could put him 25ish?

Which players? I have a feeling that we're thinking of the same guys

[Moranis]

Top 20. I also think several current players are well on pace to overtake him. Which could put him 25ish?

Which players? I have a feeling that we're thinking of the same guys

I already have Durant ahead of him (and Lebron obviously), but if you don't have Durant he has to be there.  Curry seems like the next obvious one.  Giannis is most definitely on pace.  Davis has a real chance though his health has to be a concern.  If Harden keeps up this incredible scoring pace for a couple of more seasons, especially if he gets another MVP or finally breaks through on the title, he has a real shot as well.  Kawhi seems to injury prone, but if he gets a title with a 3rd team, he would have to be a possibility.  I don't think anyone else you can really project at that level at this time, though I'm sure a young player or 2 will perform long enough and be good enough to be in the discussion (maybe Doncic, as an example). 

[Celtic Fan Forever]

MJ
LeBron
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Larry
Wilt
Shaq
Duncan
Oscar
Hakeem
Kobe

I have Kobe at 12, and I think any lower than 15 is ridiculous. I know we all have a bias against him, but when you look at his career as a whole and all his accolades it’s hard to put him lower than this.

[Moranis]

MJ
LeBron
Kareem
Magic
Russell
Larry
Wilt
Shaq
Duncan
Oscar
Hakeem
Kobe

I have Kobe at 12, and I think any lower than 15 is ridiculous. I know we all have a bias against him, but when you look at his career as a whole and all his accolades it’s hard to put him lower than this.

I don't have a bias against him and have him at 18.  That is perfectly reasonable for a fairly inefficient scorer.  I mean you have several players with multiple MVP's that you don't have on your list, that played for a long time and have great counting stats.  Why is Kobe better than 3x MVP Moses Malone or 2x MVP Karl Malone (who has better counting stats) or Julius Erving with his 3 ABA MVP's and 1 NBA MVP and over 30k points between the two leagues.  Those 3 alone bump Kobe back to 15 and are perfectly reasonable players to have as better than Kobe.  I also have West, Durant, and Garnett, which I believe are easily defendable and not ridiculous at all.  Thus, I have Kobe at 18 and frankly think you could make legitimate arguments that a handful of players just behind him should be ahead of him i.e. Robinson, Baylor, Barkley, Dirk, and Curry.

Kobe was a very good player for a very long time, but he was never considered the best player in the game.  He scored a lot, but he wasn't very efficient at doing so (compared to other great players).  He was a very good defender, but his elite defensive skill was always more perception than reality (he wasn't someone like Jordan who was just a flat out nasty defender).  Kobe rarely took plays off, had an immense killer instinct, and had an all time work ethic, which elevated his public perception and got him the MJ comparisons as the guy closest to MJ, but he was never anywhere near MJ as a player, which is how many incorrectly perceive him.

[Ilikesports17]

I think it’s kinda hopeless to compare pre and post merger guys so I’ll leave West, Wilt Russell and Robertson out.

Then I have a group of guys certainly above him:

Jordan, Lebron, Kareem, Magic, Bird.

After that I probably also prefer Olajuwon Shaq and Duncan. So I’d put him 9th.

[Somebody]

Top 20. I also think several current players are well on pace to overtake him. Which could put him 25ish?

Which players? I have a feeling that we're thinking of the same guys

I already have Durant ahead of him (and Lebron obviously), but if you don't have Durant he has to be there.  Curry seems like the next obvious one.  Giannis is most definitely on pace.  Davis has a real chance though his health has to be a concern.  If Harden keeps up this incredible scoring pace for a couple of more seasons, especially if he gets another MVP or finally breaks through on the title, he has a real shot as well.  Kawhi seems to injury prone, but if he gets a title with a 3rd team, he would have to be a possibility.  I don't think anyone else you can really project at that level at this time, though I'm sure a young player or 2 will perform long enough and be good enough to be in the discussion (maybe Doncic, as an example).

I actually don't have Durant ahead of Kobe yet, Durant still needs a few more MVP-esque years to overtake Kobe imo, similar case for Curry (although he's slightly closer due to his insane 2015-2017 run). Agree with your other picks, btw I suspect that Harden will have a Malone-esque gas tank due to his game not being that dependent on athleticism (ntm his game has some pretty glaring holes that I see him working on as he ages to keep his offensive value up).

[Somebody]

Also am I the only one here who thinks that KG is a top 10 player of all time?

[Jvalin]

I think all of Kobe's awards were well-earned.

Doesn't make sense - now - to try and discredit them.

Oh, believe me, I was discrediting his awards while he was getting them, not just now.

There is probably a long thread somewhere deep in the archives where most of this blog were openly bemoaning, deservedly so, that KG didn't get that MVP award. Discrediting his awards is not something new, not on this blog, not by me.

I think it is hard to beat those regular season stats from Kobe for that year.

KG was instrumental for BOS that year but from a defensive standpoint. KG did get DPOY, though.

Unfortunately - defensive stalwarts never win MVP awards unless they score a bunch. KG - by his nature - wasn't going to kill you with his offense.

Taking KG and his defensive and winning aside.  One of these players was Kobe, the other was Lebron from that 2008 season.

28.3 p, 6.3 r, 5.4 a, 1.8 s, 0.5 b, 3.1 t, 2.8 f, 49.0% 2PT, 36.1% 3PT, 84.0% FT (57.6 TS%)

30.0 p, 7.9 r, 7.2 a, 1.8 s, 1.1 s, 3.4 r, 2.2 f, 53.1% 2PT, 31.5% 3PT, 71.2% FT (56.8 TS%)

And while Lebron didn't make an All Defense Team, starting the very next year he was a 1st Team All Defense member for the next 5 seasons (with a 2nd Team).  So just like MVP voting, the writers weren't quite ready to give Lebron his due, but Lebron was just flat out better than Kobe that year by virtually every statistical metric (except longer shooting)

Kobe won that award solely because it was his time and he was "due", but KG was more valuable for wins and losses, Lebron was statistically better basically across the board, and Chris Paul was the best combination of KG/Lebron.  I mean Chris Paul lead the Hornets to 56 wins and lead the league in both assists and steals.  In addition, Paul lead the league in WS with 17.8.  Lebron was 2nd with 15.2 followed by Amar'e and then Kobe in 4th (KG was tied for 6th).  Paul actually finished 2nd, KG 3rd, and Lebron 4th in MVP voting that year, but all 3 had better and more valuable seasons than Kobe did.  This was an award given to Kobe because he had been in the league a long time and hadn't yet won one.

The Lakers finished that season at 57-25 (best record in the West).
The Cavs were at 45-37 (4th in the East), 21 wins behind the C's.

It's not just about individual numbers. Team success plays a big part as well.

[Surferdad]

Also am I the only one here who thinks that KG is a top 10 player of all time?

Yes I think you are.  Look at any of the lists posted above and tell me who you would knock out of the top-10 to make room for KG.

[Somebody]

Also am I the only one here who thinks that KG is a top 10 player of all time?

Yes I think you are.  Look at any of the lists posted above and tell me who you would knock out of the top-10 to make room for KG.

I actually posted my top 15 list in this thread earlier on lol.

12-15 range to me. Don't see him cracking the prestigious top 11, but I also don't see him dropping below the likes of West and Doctor J due to his longevity.

This is probably my top 15 list (in order, but I'm open to arguments ranking players in the same range differently):
Tier 1
LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell

Tier 2
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain

Tier 3
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson

Tier 4
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone

Btw awards mean absolutely nothing to me so please don't pull out stuff like Moses' 3 MVPs to pump up a player if you're replying to my list lol (no offence, I just think that awards are absolute crap at evaluating a player's "goodness").

[Moranis]

I think all of Kobe's awards were well-earned.

Doesn't make sense - now - to try and discredit them.

Oh, believe me, I was discrediting his awards while he was getting them, not just now.

There is probably a long thread somewhere deep in the archives where most of this blog were openly bemoaning, deservedly so, that KG didn't get that MVP award. Discrediting his awards is not something new, not on this blog, not by me.

I think it is hard to beat those regular season stats from Kobe for that year.

KG was instrumental for BOS that year but from a defensive standpoint. KG did get DPOY, though.

Unfortunately - defensive stalwarts never win MVP awards unless they score a bunch. KG - by his nature - wasn't going to kill you with his offense.

Taking KG and his defensive and winning aside.  One of these players was Kobe, the other was Lebron from that 2008 season.

28.3 p, 6.3 r, 5.4 a, 1.8 s, 0.5 b, 3.1 t, 2.8 f, 49.0% 2PT, 36.1% 3PT, 84.0% FT (57.6 TS%)

30.0 p, 7.9 r, 7.2 a, 1.8 s, 1.1 s, 3.4 r, 2.2 f, 53.1% 2PT, 31.5% 3PT, 71.2% FT (56.8 TS%)

And while Lebron didn't make an All Defense Team, starting the very next year he was a 1st Team All Defense member for the next 5 seasons (with a 2nd Team).  So just like MVP voting, the writers weren't quite ready to give Lebron his due, but Lebron was just flat out better than Kobe that year by virtually every statistical metric (except longer shooting)

Kobe won that award solely because it was his time and he was "due", but KG was more valuable for wins and losses, Lebron was statistically better basically across the board, and Chris Paul was the best combination of KG/Lebron.  I mean Chris Paul lead the Hornets to 56 wins and lead the league in both assists and steals.  In addition, Paul lead the league in WS with 17.8.  Lebron was 2nd with 15.2 followed by Amar'e and then Kobe in 4th (KG was tied for 6th).  Paul actually finished 2nd, KG 3rd, and Lebron 4th in MVP voting that year, but all 3 had better and more valuable seasons than Kobe did.  This was an award given to Kobe because he had been in the league a long time and hadn't yet won one.

The Lakers finished that season at 57-25 (best record in the West).
The Cavs were at 45-37 (4th in the East), 21 wins behind the C's.

It's not just about individual numbers. Team success plays a big part as well.

Sure, but have you actually looked at that Cavs team.  It was awful.  They would have been lucky to win 15 games without James.  And I know his WS were 15.2, but there is no way that collection of players wins 30 games without Lebron, especially given all of the games missed (Lebron, Big Z, and Devin Brown were the only players with at least 70 games and only Damon Jones played at least 60).  That team was absolutely atrocious, which actually furthers Lebron's brilliance that season.

Also, the Lakers were 22-5 in the games Pau played that year (and one of the losses he played 2 and a half minutes).  So they were 35-20 without Pau and that is with much better health and significantly better players surrounding Kobe.  Without Pau that team would have been a 1st or 2nd round exit type team (even with Kobe).  Pau turned their season around.  He was their most valuable player where wins and losses were concerned.

Kobe winning that award was a shame.  The MVP should have been KG, but if not him Paul or James.  All 3 were just better and more valuable than Kobe that year.

[Moranis]

Also am I the only one here who thinks that KG is a top 10 player of all time?

Yes I think you are.  Look at any of the lists posted above and tell me who you would knock out of the top-10 to make room for KG.

I actually posted my top 15 list in this thread earlier on lol.

12-15 range to me. Don't see him cracking the prestigious top 11, but I also don't see him dropping below the likes of West and Doctor J due to his longevity.

This is probably my top 15 list (in order, but I'm open to arguments ranking players in the same range differently):
Tier 1
LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell

Tier 2
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain

Tier 3
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson

Tier 4
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone

Btw awards mean absolutely nothing to me so please don't pull out stuff like Moses' 3 MVPs to pump up a player if you're replying to my list lol (no offence, I just think that awards are absolute crap at evaluating a player's "goodness").

your disdain for 80's basketball is a bit much.  Garnett is not better than Bird and Magic.  Not even close.  And I already knew you hate Moses Malone for some strange reason.  He was the best player in the world for a 5 year period, playing in a time with 3 other top 10 players all time. 

[nickagneta]

Also am I the only one here who thinks that KG is a top 10 player of all time?

Yes I think you are.  Look at any of the lists posted above and tell me who you would knock out of the top-10 to make room for KG.

I actually posted my top 15 list in this thread earlier on lol.

12-15 range to me. Don't see him cracking the prestigious top 11, but I also don't see him dropping below the likes of West and Doctor J due to his longevity.

This is probably my top 15 list (in order, but I'm open to arguments ranking players in the same range differently):
Tier 1
LeBron James
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell

Tier 2
Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kevin Garnett
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain

Tier 3
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson

Tier 4
Oscar Robertson
David Robinson
Kobe Bryant
Karl Malone

Btw awards mean absolutely nothing to me so please don't pull out stuff like Moses' 3 MVPs to pump up a player if you're replying to my list lol (no offence, I just think that awards are absolute crap at evaluating a player's "goodness").

No offense, but many here probably think using very noisy advanced stats to judge players over different eras is absolute crap in evaluating "goodness" in a player so maybe you should keep that out of your conversations when talking top ten players with people.

Of course, I don't agree with that, but I also don't agree that awards don't matter, that titles don't matter, that winning doesn't matter. They all matter. That stats. The awards. Everything.

So people wanting to bring up awards should do so in their arguments just as you bringing up some noisy advanced stats should bring those up.