CelticsStrong
Beyond the Association => College Basketball => Topic started by: quikblink on July 08, 2008, 11:47:43 PM
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One of the highest rated HS players (Brandon Jennings) is going to play in Europe rather than attend college (U of Arizona). He will most likely enter the draft after next season when NBA rules say he can. I wonder if this will be a new trend after seeing what has happened to someone like Bill Walker?
I am torn on the NBA's rule on the draft. I feel like that both the NBA's and NCAA's product is better when the players are more mature and actual basketball players rather than athletic potential. On the flip side you look at Bill Walker. He would have gone in the first round out of HS, but now is a 2nd round pick. He lost a lot of money.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=3479195
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It'll be very interesting to see how this plays out. What type of interest he generates, what level of pay he receives, what type of role does he play. Lots of interesting pieces to this puzzle.
Should be good, hopefully it works out for him.
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did he pass the entrance exams? (acts/sats) thats what caused kg to declare for the draft verses go to college.
i think the rule is good, but not strict enough. i say at least 2 years in college would be better. it gives ncaa teams more stability and it gives players more time to mentally mature. high school to the nba is a big jump.
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Yes, it will be very interesting. I can't really figure out where he's going to play. At a higher level, he'll need a very open minded coach to have minutes. If he wants to go to a good team who can pay him an expensive salary and offer Euroleague exposition, I really don't see where he can play. If he gets a sponsorship deal and doesn't demand a big salary, some middle-of-the-pack-not-Euroleague may very well be interested and give him minutes, just because of the exposure. I'm also curious to see how well he'll perform - if he makes an impact, it may very well open a Pandora's Box. Or maybe he can come to Os Belenenses to be the go to guy and League MVP :P
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did he pass the entrance exams? (acts/sats) thats what caused kg to declare for the draft verses go to college.
i think the rule is good, but not strict enough. i say at least 2 years in college would be better. it gives ncaa teams more stability and it gives players more time to mentally mature. high school to the nba is a big jump.
i'm pretty certain he failed to meet the SAT minimum requirement to go to Arizona, so rather than play for free at a junior college he's going to earn some money overseas.
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I see no reason a kid who isnt cut out for college should suffer through a year before being able to jump to the NBA. If basketball is his best shot and his calling, more power to him for starting early abroad. Im actually amazed that this hasnt come up sooner. While I fully support the current rule, this is a fine alternative.
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I heard a radio interview with him and he stated that he intended to go to college once he recieved a passing score from sat/act (I believe it was the sat's he was taking), so I'm guessing that he did not pass.
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Brandon Jennings found a glitch in the matrix! He's going to be a great player in the L.
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All I know (and all I need to know) is that I saw a picture of him on ESPN and he has the most glorious high top fade I've seen since House Party 2.
Oh...why here it is...
(http://commotionmag.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/brandonjenning[color=green]Edited. Profanity and masked profanity are against forum rules and may result in discipline.[/color]op.jpg)
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it takes alot of you know whats to try to pull that off haha
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Good for him.
An 18 year old should be free to work wherever he wants to.
The NBA rule is foolish, and it benefits the corrupt NCAA and saves the NBA owners some draft mistakes.
I don't think 99% of high schoolers are ready for the NBA either, but so what? It is supposed to be a free country.
By what bizarre reasoning does playing professional basketball require going to college for a year? Golfers, tennis players, baseball players don't seem to require it.
Let the NBA institute a minor league system if they want to "develop" players. Don't make them go to college so some sleazeball coach at some big-time college can make two or three million dollars a year.
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Good for him.
An 18 year old should be free to work wherever he wants to.
The NBA rule is foolish, and it benefits the corrupt NCAA and saves the NBA owners some draft mistakes.
I don't think 99% of high schoolers are ready for the NBA either, but so what? It is supposed to be a free country.
By what bizarre reasoning does playing professional basketball require going to college for a year? Golfers, tennis players, baseball players don't seem to require it.
Let the NBA institute a minor league system if they want to "develop" players. Don't make them go to college so some sleazeball coach at some big-time college can make two or three million dollars a year.
So why do we have the draft then? Everyone should be able to work wherever they want, right? Therefore, players should be able to sign with whomever they want.
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Is he going to get playing time abroad? I know that many of the Euro leagues are notoriously slow about giving young kids minutes. That's a broad generalization, but before making a commitment like this, I'd want a firm guarantee that I was getting at least 30 minutes per game.
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Is he going to get playing time abroad? I know that many of the Euro leagues are notoriously slow about giving young kids minutes. That's a broad generalization, but before making a commitment like this, I'd want a firm guarantee that I was getting at least 30 minutes per game.
No, actually it's exactly the opposite, plenty of 17-18 kids have pro experience, mostly since there is no college basketball to speak of. So if you're skilled enough, you play. I don't think though that any team that's trying to win anything in Europe will give a minute guarantee to an unproven US high-school kid.
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Is he going to get playing time abroad? I know that many of the Euro leagues are notoriously slow about giving young kids minutes. That's a broad generalization, but before making a commitment like this, I'd want a firm guarantee that I was getting at least 30 minutes per game.
No, actually it's exactly the opposite, plenty of 17-18 kids have pro experience, mostly since there is no college basketball to speak of. So if you're skilled enough, you play. I don't think though that any team that's trying to win anything in Europe will give a minute guarantee to an unproven US high-school kid.
It's my understanding that these kids are signed to professional contracts, but their floor time is inconsistent.
Draftexpress seems to confirm this view, as almost all of their top young international prospects are averaging less than 20 minutes per game. Even Ricky Rubio, the phenom, averaged right around 20 minutes last season. This is a kid projected to go top-five in the draft.
Based on that, I think it's still going to make sense for most good college prospects to attend a major NCAA program, where they get top coaching, exposure, and minutes.
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As long as he gets the chance to learn from a high end competition, the rule is working for the NBA. I do hope they work it so it covers another years soon.
He is not going to get the attention in this country this year like the other 'Freshmen'. Most fans in this country do not watch foreign leagues. He is going to hurt his marketability (and possible non-basketball contracts) when he does enter the league.
If I was a foreign team, I would make these guys sign multiple year teams with expensive buy outs. What's the point for them if they only come for one year?
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God bless him. I am surprised it took this long. Jennings was waiting for the score on his 3rd try -- basically decided to avoid the suspense and just went to Europe. I hope he succeeds, because the draft age limit was an incredibly cynical move that the nba put in only so they could get the free marketing that college basketball provides.
College basketball has benefitted having better players for a short time, but as the USC scandal surrounding OJ Mayo shows -- college is required to perpetuate the sham of "student athlete" because of the age limit. If a kid has zero intention of going to college, why should the league force him to? It just further corrupts an already pretty corrupt sport.
The playing time he will get in Europe will be modest if he is good, but on the other hand, the Euroleague is WAY WAY better than any college basketball conference in this country. Remember, Euroleague teams face NBA teams in preseason games and occasionally beat them. The competition he will face in practice and on the other end of the floor will be vastly superior to what american college basketball can offer.
The real interesting thing will be if a European club will create an offer for a guy who wants to play in the US eventually, with less oppressive buyouts and stuff. What incentive is there for a Maccabi Tel Aviv to sign Jennings for just one year and have him walk away to an NBA team? Why should they accomodate him? But it is an interesting idea, and hopefully he succeeds so more kids like him go off and do this.
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It's my understanding that these kids are signed to professional contracts, but their floor time is inconsistent.
Draftexpress seems to confirm this view, as almost all of their top young international prospects are averaging less than 20 minutes per game. Even Ricky Rubio, the phenom, averaged right around 20 minutes last season. This is a kid projected to go top-five in the draft.
Based on that, I think it's still going to make sense for most good college prospects to attend a major NCAA program, where they get top coaching, exposure, and minutes.
There are some coaches who have a tendency of playing with their lineup a bit too much in European basketball. One of them is Aito Garcia Reneses -Spains's newly appointed National Team Coach-, the same guy who coached Gasol in Barcelona before he entered the draft and the same guy who coached Rubio these last seasons...
Other young guys actually get a chance to play consistently despite their age. Rudy Fernandez (Portland) being an example, he played an average of 30 minutes per game even when he was 19 years old...
It also depends on what leagues we are talking about. As the current laws allow players to quite easily from one team to another all across Europe, teams with less money than those ones in the elite leagues (Italy, Spain, Russia, Greece, Turkey...) often are forced to field very young players, in order to compensate for the loss of their young stars...
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Good. As someone else already said, college basketball is a sham. Most of these kids aren't getting a good education and aren't getting any money out of it. Thus, it's just the colleges that are benefiting from it.
Plus, no one blinks an eye when baseball and hockey players skip college to go to the minor leagues.
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Good. As someone else already said, college basketball is a sham. Most of these kids aren't getting a good education and aren't getting any money out of it. Thus, it's just the colleges that are benefiting from it.
Plus, no one blinks an eye when baseball and hockey players skip college to go to the minor leagues.
Because there is a real minor league that doesn't impact the major team.
If the NBA had a real minor league system, then it would be fine.
They need to add another year. This has never really been about the NCAA. It has been about allowing teams a chance to actually scout a player against good talent so there are less major mistakes in the Drafts.
If the players are better known, even better for the NBA.
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I think this is a trend that will continue. The NCAA's slave system is collapsing. And if the NBA raises its draft age to 20 (a change that has been rumored) even more top HS players will go to Europe.
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I see no reason a kid who isnt cut out for college should suffer through a year before being able to jump to the NBA. If basketball is his best shot and his calling, more power to him for starting early abroad. Im actually amazed that this hasnt come up sooner. While I fully support the current rule, this is a fine alternative.
well quite frankly, i would rather our society support brighter, well educated players. the nba needs cerebral players, not the stupid high schoolers who can't even spell or know where the continent of the north america is. (gerald green would be an example of this) for them to pass the standardized tests to get into college is not a big deal. its not like colleges are asking for amazing test scores. all you need is around 400 in each of the SAT parts and your golden. thats not asking too much. thats like getting a 50 on a test.
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Spoken like someone who has no clue what goes on in collegiate athletics. checkout the graduation rates of top programs and the courses taken; factor in that you can go three years taking random classes that have nothing to do with a major. What do you get a sham student athlete hype machine. The reason so many of these guys are taking money is the same reason other goods/services that have their trade artificially restricted go on black markets: nature abhors a vacuum and the market is natural.
If the NCAA wanted to cleanup its programs it would allow better scholarships, allow entering the draft and getting drafted (including signing with an agent) and then returning to school, and it would revise eligibility requirements - giving more leeway to schools that show a history of success at graduation rates, and less to perpetual offenders. Instead it wants clear rules that give the appearance of uprightness, while at the same time letting all the filth fester and stink.
As for the NBA I wouldn't have a problem with an uncapped and complete free agent system. However it benefits younger players far more than it does older players (i.e. future NBAPA members at the expense of current ones) - and like all cartels the players "union" seeks to protect seniority and the earning power of senior and powerful current members, at the expense of outsiders.
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Good. As someone else already said, college basketball is a sham. Most of these kids aren't getting a good education and aren't getting any money out of it. Thus, it's just the colleges that are benefiting from it.
Plus, no one blinks an eye when baseball and hockey players skip college to go to the minor leagues.
Because there is a real minor league that doesn't impact the major team.
If the NBA had a real minor league system, then it would be fine.
They need to add another year. This has never really been about the NCAA. It has been about allowing teams a chance to actually scout a player against good talent so there are less major mistakes in the Drafts.
If the players are better known, even better for the NBA.
you just hit on one of the biggest misconceptions of the Garnett era (1995 to 2006) -- there were NOT significantly more scouting mistakes. You look at the era where high schoolers were draft eligible, and the success rate for them was higher than that for college kids. The Dick Vitales of the world will speak of a strawman of all these high schoolers who got crap advice and made bad decisions, but the empirical evidence just is not there.
There were a few notable busts (Leon Smith, Korleone Young, Ndudi Ebi, Kwame Brown) ... but just as many of the very very best players in the league (KG, Kobe, McGrady, Stoudemire, Al Jefferson, LeBron, Dwight Howard) were straight from high school. If you can play, you can play, and the best of the best showed in year 1 that they belonged.
NBA teams knew about LeBron as a sophomore in high school -- he would have probably been the #1 overall pick back then.
Increasing the age limit will only guarantee more defections to Europe and more recruiting scandals at the NCAA level. The only major reason the age limit exists is so the league can get the free marketing major college basketball provides -- so it can improve its draft TV ratings. There IS also a corporate sales sort of racial angle to the move which Jermaine O'Neal at the time correctly but somewhat hamhandedly pointed out.
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If the NCAA wants to attract the best players out of high school, it can pay them, plain and simnple. It's called a free market.
But the NCAA doesn't want a free market. It wants to make millions in gate and TV revenues from these kids, while paying them nothing except room and board plus a scholarship to take basketweaving (which costs the school virtually nothing).
And the NBA supports this slave system because in the end it gets a more mature player with greater name recognition for marketing purposes. Meanwhile, the players are screwed.
All of the rhetoric about the importance of academics and the wonders of the college experience is the purest BS you will find anywhere.
This system is collasping and it's good riddance as far as I'm concerned.
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Good. As someone else already said, college basketball is a sham. Most of these kids aren't getting a good education and aren't getting any money out of it. Thus, it's just the colleges that are benefiting from it.
Plus, no one blinks an eye when baseball and hockey players skip college to go to the minor leagues.
Because there is a real minor league that doesn't impact the major team.
If the NBA had a real minor league system, then it would be fine.
They need to add another year. This has never really been about the NCAA. It has been about allowing teams a chance to actually scout a player against good talent so there are less major mistakes in the Drafts.
If the players are better known, even better for the NBA.
you just hit on one of the biggest misconceptions of the Garnett era (1995 to 2006) -- there were NOT significantly more scouting mistakes. You look at the era where high schoolers were draft eligible, and the success rate for them was higher than that for college kids. The Dick Vitales of the world will speak of a strawman of all these high schoolers who got crap advice and made bad decisions, but the empirical evidence just is not there.
There were a few notable busts (Leon Smith, Korleone Young, Ndudi Ebi, Kwame Brown) ... but just as many of the very very best players in the league (KG, Kobe, McGrady, Stoudemire, Al Jefferson, LeBron, Dwight Howard) were straight from high school. If you can play, you can play, and the best of the best showed in year 1 that they belonged.
NBA teams knew about LeBron as a sophomore in high school -- he would have probably been the #1 overall pick back then.
Increasing the age limit will only guarantee more defections to Europe and more recruiting scandals at the NCAA level. The only major reason the age limit exists is so the league can get the free marketing major college basketball provides -- so it can improve its draft TV ratings. There IS also a corporate sales sort of racial angle to the move which Jermaine O'Neal at the time correctly but somewhat hamhandedly pointed out.
To many teams have been bitten by the 'potential' player sitting on the bench, eating up salary.
And how many of these young players don't do anything till they get to their second team?
No, the NBA and the teams want better looks at these players. They want players that are more polished and ready to contribute.
And as a fan, I completely agree. I want to see more rookies able to step out there and contribute. I want to see deep drafts of known players, not just a passing name recognition.
I want to see the NBDL be used by late 1st rounders and 2nd rounders, not lotto picks.
If college benefits from having more talent, as a fan, that to is a win for me watching.
If they go to Europe and struggle to get play time on good teams, that's a win for the fan as well because that player is being challenged to improve.
The only person that is hurt by this is the over hyped HS player that actually doesn't have the talent they are believe to have.
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For the argument that "it's a free country, an 18 year old should be able to work wherever he wants"... It's also a free country for the NBA as a business to sell the type of product it wants to.
It's like if a rogue KFC franchise decides to make and sell Turkey. The Turkey might do really well but if KFC as a corporation doesn't want to change it's image, then they have the right to make rules in place so that franchises can't sell Turkeys.
The NBA doesn't want it's franchises to draft Turkeys.
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Good for him.
An 18 year old should be free to work wherever he wants to.
The NBA rule is foolish, and it benefits the corrupt NCAA and saves the NBA owners some draft mistakes.
I don't think 99% of high schoolers are ready for the NBA either, but so what? It is supposed to be a free country.
By what bizarre reasoning does playing professional basketball require going to college for a year? Golfers, tennis players, baseball players don't seem to require it.
Let the NBA institute a minor league system if they want to "develop" players. Don't make them go to college so some sleazeball coach at some big-time college can make two or three million dollars a year.
I'm not as pessamistic as you are concerning the intentions and merits of college basketball, i generally agree with your points. Although i understand that most of these kids aren't ready for the massive amounts or cash and resposibilities tied to it - if an entity wishes to hire that 18 year old, they should have the right to.
The problem here is the D-league is still in its infancy. If the NBA was able to successfully implement a developmental league that included at least one "minor-league" team for every professional team, then i think Stern would have no qualms with eliminating the one-year out of high-school rule.
What sucks is that, in the end, it's these young players who are getting screwed. There is such a small, finite amount of players that get a chance to play on an NBA team, and by not having a sufficient developmental league, for every 1 success story you end up with 30 20-year olds who don't have an education and also don't have a chance to play basketball in the united states.
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When the NBA instituted this rule I wondered how many people will do this. Seems like this kid is the first to get a lot of pub doing it. I think how his situation goes will determine how many people do it in the future.
I understand playing in Europe, and playing for money, but I still couldn't imagine passing up a season of college basketball. I truly don't think there is anything like it. It's not like he would be expected to go to class that often or learn anything. The atmosphere of the game is awesome in college. Many of the guys who have played there for a year have said how much they love it.
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Is he going to get playing time abroad? I know that many of the Euro leagues are notoriously slow about giving young kids minutes. That's a broad generalization, but before making a commitment like this, I'd want a firm guarantee that I was getting at least 30 minutes per game.
No, actually it's exactly the opposite, plenty of 17-18 kids have pro experience, mostly since there is no college basketball to speak of. So if you're skilled enough, you play. I don't think though that any team that's trying to win anything in Europe will give a minute guarantee to an unproven US high-school kid.
It's my understanding that these kids are signed to professional contracts, but their floor time is inconsistent.
Draftexpress seems to confirm this view, as almost all of their top young international prospects are averaging less than 20 minutes per game. Even Ricky Rubio, the phenom, averaged right around 20 minutes last season. This is a kid projected to go top-five in the draft.
Based on that, I think it's still going to make sense for most good college prospects to attend a major NCAA program, where they get top coaching, exposure, and minutes.
Have in mind that Euroleague games are 40 minutes long, which leaves less minutes to play around with. I have the sense that in the Euroleague if you can play, you'll be able to carve yourself minutes on almost any team, but noone will play you based on potential -- Euro seasons are not 82 games long, and each game counts for more.
OTOH, the jury is still out on whether 30 minutes in college are better than 20 minutes in a pro team overseas. Since Euro teams play less game on a weekly basis, which actually gives coaches the time to give their prospects ample skill training. I am, of course, no expert, but there is a reason why a good amount of Euros are more fundamentally sound than US kids, even if they lack the sheer talent to last in an NBA setting.
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Good for him huh? Living in Arizona we got the scoop on this dude.
This gut actually passed his 2nd SAT, but because it was so high compared to the first ...it was ruled inadmissable. He took a third, but decided that Europe maybe a better option. Miles Simon actually recruited him to go euro. It looks like Europe was his only viable option.
The sad part is, playing in europe is no reward. This kid did not want to go. The Ncaa rules worked in this extreme case of "one and doneitis". I dont know if he has a LD, but the Ncaa takes that into account and Im sure its moot. He failed, He passed with a 1500(I really hav no idea) then after a third test...he must have known he failed skips town.
We will miss seeing him at U of A. We had title hopes again.
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Jennings has committed to play for Pallacanestro Virtus Roma in the Italian league. His agent, Sonny Vaccaro, described the terms of the deal as a "three-year, multi-million dollar" contract with buyout considerations that will allow him to leave the team and enter the NBA draft when eligible next year.
Virtus Roma has also arranged for Jennings' 13-year-old brother, Terrence, to enroll in an English-speaking school and land a spot on a junior club team in Rome...
...The team hasn't won a European League title since 1984 but has landed some impressive talent through the years. In 1989, Danny Ferry played for the team, then known as Il Messaggero Roma, instead of joining the Clippers. The roster that season also included current Lakers assistant coach Brian Shaw. Former Laker Michael Cooper (1990-91), ex-Detriot Piston Rick Mahorn (1991-93) and former UCLA point guard Tyus Edney (2004-05) also have played for the team...
...Jennings' decision led Arizona Coach Lute Olson to announce last week that he would no longer recruit players likely to leave for the NBA when they turn 19...
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That little caveat about his 13 year old brother is VERY interesting.
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I wanted to add the importance of a college program in the US to help prepare each potential NBA draftee. Here the game flow is very similar to the NBA. The college game is slower and the use of big man who can play their back to the basket makes jobs for 6'7" pfs available. The scouting is much better in the US then Europe. Logistics alone leaves the argument closed. Ill go further in saying that our best Euros benefit from other stars more then American players benefit from them. Dirk is junk without a legit pg and C.I say junk, what I mean is he can not handle "the load". Tim Duncan is positively one of the best if not the best PF of all time( he can play the 5 too). Offense, defense he does farm more then his foreign born players and with out either of them TD would turn any good player into a great one.
An organization can get the scoop on kids behavior ect... from a credible peer in the US. I wonder how Turiaf would have played if he stayed in Europe Gonzaga. I think he was more NBA ready then his two buddies. I know Boris Diaw's game is supersoft. The Suns use his name in any trade they are trying to make...although we will see what happens under Porter. I bet he gets lost in the sf shuffle.