CelticsStrong
Celtics Basketball => Celtics Talk => Topic started by: droopdog7 on January 06, 2013, 09:52:57 PM
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To be able to get a true center upgrade via trade, I am of the belief that either Bradley or Sullinger would have to be included. For a really good player, likely both. If we're trading only our spare parts, then that's all we should expect in return; a spare part.
So, if we want a decent center. And if we had to trade one of these guys, which would I hurt you most to part with; Sully or Avery?
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which would [it] hurt you most to part with; Sully or Avery?
Bradley.
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You trade Sully.
Bradley is a better player, and impacts the team in a more meaninful way, but the biggest reason is that Bass and Sully just don't mix, and it hurts our rotation having to tip-toe around those two.
So if you're going to land a center, you use Sully... I'd prefer to trade Bass, but if that's the sacrifice you do it.
But if I'm trading Sully, it better be for a really good player. For Bass, I'd be comfortable with a much lower level trade.
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we need avery and bass is as good as sully for this year. I would give up sully ,melo , lee for Gortat
PG: Rondo / Terry
SG: Bradley / Barbosa
SF: PP / Green
PF: KG / Bass
C: Gortat / Wilcox/FA(Birdman?) / Collins
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neither. I would not give up either one is what I mean
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Bradley would hurt more, without question.
I like Sully, but his skillset is replaceable. I don't know anybody else in this league who consistently plays the suffocating defense that we see with Bradley.
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Not surprised by the answers so far. In truth, I'd probably pick Bradley too. But when you compare the two players, the one thing we do know about sully is that he has a true position and can excel as a rebounder. I'd think he peak is a poor mans Kevin Love, which is pretty [dang] good. He he also a big, which are premium compared to guards. Bradley, on the other hand, is still an undersized SG with very little offense.
That said, Avery is truely special on the defensive end. I like them both very much and it would hurt to lose either. But as they say, you gotta give to get.
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Not surprised by the answers so far. In truth, I'd probably pick Bradley too. But when you compare the two players, the one thing we do know about sully is that he has a true position and can excel as a rebounder. I'd think he peak is a poor mans Kevin Love, which is pretty [dang] good. He he also a big, which are premium compared to guards. Bradley, on the other hand, is still an undersized SG with very little offense.
That said, Avery is truely special on the defensive end. I like them both very much and it would hurt to lose either. But as they say, you gotta give to get.
Bradley has more offense than you give him credit for. He's a weapon in transition, dangerous on cuts, has great form and elevation on his jumpshot and has flashed an ability to create for himself when asked to do so (like the Hawks game last year). His handle is mediocre at best and he doesn't have great vision, but he holds his own on offense.
I like his game already, but when he gets healthy I see him as a guy who could deliver when asked to score a little more in the future.
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Not surprised by the answers so far. In truth, I'd probably pick Bradley too. But when you compare the two players, the one thing we do know about sully is that he has a true position and can excel as a rebounder. I'd think he peak is a poor mans Kevin Love, which is pretty [dang] good. He he also a big, which are premium compared to guards. Bradley, on the other hand, is still an undersized SG with very little offense.
Bradley has a true position and it is SG.
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..
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Not surprised by the answers so far. In truth, I'd probably pick Bradley too. But when you compare the two players, the one thing we do know about sully is that he has a true position and can excel as a rebounder. I'd think he peak is a poor mans Kevin Love, which is pretty [dang] good. He he also a big, which are premium compared to guards. Bradley, on the other hand, is still an undersized SG with very little offense.
Bradley has a true position and it is SG.
Yes, he's an undersized shooting guard.
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Not surprised by the answers so far. In truth, I'd probably pick Bradley too. But when you compare the two players, the one thing we do know about sully is that he has a true position and can excel as a rebounder. I'd think he peak is a poor mans Kevin Love, which is pretty [dang] good. He he also a big, which are premium compared to guards. Bradley, on the other hand, is still an undersized SG with very little offense.
Bradley has a true position and it is SG.
Yes, he's an undersized shooting guard.
But he is definitely a shooting guard.
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I love Sully and what he is bringing to the table. I'd hate to see him go in a trade. However, Bradley is a one of a kind type of player that teams dont get the luxury of coming across very often. You can always find an undersized power forward kicking around, a defensive stopper isnt going to fall into your lap though.
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We let Tony get away please not Bradley, you keep him.
I will say I love Sully and would hate to part with him but of the two it'd have to be him.
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Not surprised by the answers so far. In truth, I'd probably pick Bradley too. But when you compare the two players, the one thing we do know about sully is that he has a true position and can excel as a rebounder. I'd think he peak is a poor mans Kevin Love, which is pretty [dang] good. He he also a big, which are premium compared to guards. Bradley, on the other hand, is still an undersized SG with very little offense.
Bradley has a true position and it is SG.
Yes, he's an undersized shooting guard.
Sully is an undersized PF, though, right? And he doesn't possess any skills nearly as elite as Avery's defense.
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Not surprised by the answers so far. In truth, I'd probably pick Bradley too. But when you compare the two players, the one thing we do know about sully is that he has a true position and can excel as a rebounder. I'd think he peak is a poor mans Kevin Love, which is pretty [dang] good. He he also a big, which are premium compared to guards. Bradley, on the other hand, is still an undersized SG with very little offense.
Bradley has a true position and it is SG.
Yes, he's an undersized shooting guard.
Sully is an undersized PF, though, right? And he doesn't possess any skills nearly as elite as Avery's defense.
I don't know. Is he really undersized? He's 6'9' and 270. I suppose he is shortish but I would not classify him as undersized. Bradley on the other hand was forced into a pg role because of his size. And he is absolutely great as a defender. But his size will give him problems against some guys. Joe Johnson was abusing him before doc had to take him off him. Kobe would likely kill Bradley in the post. There are a handful of others that would make Bradley an average defender.
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Bradley because his ceiling is higher due to his athleticism. I don't think we will part with either unless we are getting an extremely good player in return
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Bradley on the other hand was forced into a pg role because of his size.
But that was an obvious mistake, something I pointed out a lot during his rookie season.
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Bradley, higher ceiling. Sullinger looks like a steal though.
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Not surprised by the answers so far. In truth, I'd probably pick Bradley too. But when you compare the two players, the one thing we do know about sully is that he has a true position and can excel as a rebounder. I'd think he peak is a poor mans Kevin Love, which is pretty [dang] good. He he also a big, which are premium compared to guards. Bradley, on the other hand, is still an undersized SG with very little offense.
Bradley has a true position and it is SG.
Yes, he's an undersized shooting guard.
Sully is an undersized PF, though, right? And he doesn't possess any skills nearly as elite as Avery's defense.
I don't know. Is he really undersized? He's 6'9' and 270. I suppose he is shortish but I would not classify him as undersized. Bradley on the other hand was forced into a pg role because of his size. And he is absolutely great as a defender. But his size will give him problems against some guys. Joe Johnson was abusing him before doc had to take him off him. Kobe would likely kill Bradley in the post. There are a handful of others that would make Bradley an average defender.
The same way Sully can't score against tall, lengthy 7 footers?
Kobe kills everyone in the post. I'd trust Bradley on him than someone bigger like Joe Johnson, though. He'd be quicker.
There are a handful of others that would make Sully a below average offensive and defensive player.
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Rather Trade GREEN /BASS/Lee all day long than give up either of these guys.
I would trade ONE of them and other players , other than Melo for Cousins
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I'd trade either or both for the right player.
Odds are, no such trade develops. Neither are at their full value yet.
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I honestly think the Cs will have a mutiny on their hands if they trade Avery. Rondo, KG and Pierce all seem so infatuated with what this kid brings to the court. If those three stay intact and AB is traded this team is in trouble. With his recent play i also think a Sully trade is going to be hard to swallow unless the over whelming consequence is that danny really wins out on a deal.
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If I was made to choose between the 2 it would have to be sully. Bradley can change a game with his defense, still a kid and I would not want to have to play him. To me a package of bass, lee or terry, melo and draft pick would get a good center in here.
so my vote is neither ;)
sully is only going to get better and he's a young rookie with great rebounding, nice jump shooting and passing and improving in leaps and bounds on defense
reminds me of paul silas but with more range
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Maybe i'm alone on this, but i find Avery Bradley to be incredibly overrated. His defense is top notch, but his offense is pretty bad. He cannot shoot (i've seen quite a few of his jumpers hit no rim and nothing but the backboard) he has no handles, is small for a 2 guard, and he cannot finish in traffic. Maybe he will get better, but i'm not impressed with his overall game. Sullinger impresses me when i watch him. He makes dumb fouls, but he is a very good rebounder and he has a good looking jump shot. Bradley makes a pretty huge difference for them on the defensive end, but he is a defensive specialist, nothing more. I am fine with moving Bradley and allowing Lee to get more minutes.
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Maybe i'm alone on this, but i find Avery Bradley to be incredibly overrated. His defense is top notch, but his offense is pretty bad. He cannot shoot (i've seen quite a few of his jumpers hit no rim and nothing but the backboard) he has no handles, is small for a 2 guard, and he cannot finish in traffic. Maybe he will get better, but i'm not impressed with his overall game. Sullinger impresses me when i watch him. He makes dumb fouls, but he is a very good rebounder and he has a good looking jump shot. Bradley makes a pretty huge difference for them on the defensive end, but he is a defensive specialist, nothing more. I am fine with moving Bradley and allowing Lee to get more minutes.
Bradley finished at 64% at the rim last year, that's very good for a guard, and he took 40% of his shots there too. He can finish just fine, the question is can he recapture his corner three prowess this year.
Just being an active and agressive cutter and hitting corner threes is offense enough, especially since he's dangerous in transition as well.
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Maybe i'm alone on this, but i find Avery Bradley to be incredibly overrated. His defense is top notch, but his offense is pretty bad. He cannot shoot (i've seen quite a few of his jumpers hit no rim and nothing but the backboard) he has no handles, is small for a 2 guard, and he cannot finish in traffic. Maybe he will get better, but i'm not impressed with his overall game. Sullinger impresses me when i watch him. He makes dumb fouls, but he is a very good rebounder and he has a good looking jump shot. Bradley makes a pretty huge difference for them on the defensive end, but he is a defensive specialist, nothing more. I am fine with moving Bradley and allowing Lee to get more minutes.
Bradley finished at 64% at the rim last year, that's very good for a guard, and he took 40% of his shots there too. He can finish just fine, the question is can he recapture his corner three prowess this year.
Just being an active and agressive cutter and hitting corner threes is offense enough, especially since he's dangerous in transition as well.
He finished with a high percentage at the rim because of the uncontested layups he was being fed from Rondo. I do give him credit for being a good cutter but if we're talking about a guy being untradeable Bradley shouldn't be in the discussion IMO. His defensive skill set is unique, but everything else about him screams average. There is no flow to his offensive game. Everything seems rushed and out of control, except for when he cuts to the rim.
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Maybe i'm alone on this, but i find Avery Bradley to be incredibly overrated. His defense is top notch, but his offense is pretty bad. He cannot shoot (i've seen quite a few of his jumpers hit no rim and nothing but the backboard) he has no handles, is small for a 2 guard, and he cannot finish in traffic. Maybe he will get better, but i'm not impressed with his overall game. Sullinger impresses me when i watch him. He makes dumb fouls, but he is a very good rebounder and he has a good looking jump shot. Bradley makes a pretty huge difference for them on the defensive end, but he is a defensive specialist, nothing more. I am fine with moving Bradley and allowing Lee to get more minutes.
Bradley finished at 64% at the rim last year, that's very good for a guard, and he took 40% of his shots there too. He can finish just fine, the question is can he recapture his corner three prowess this year.
Just being an active and agressive cutter and hitting corner threes is offense enough, especially since he's dangerous in transition as well.
He finished with a high percentage at the rim because of the uncontested layups he was being fed from Rondo. I do give him credit for being a good cutter but if we're talking about a guy being untradeable Bradley shouldn't be in the discussion IMO. His defensive skill set is unique, but everything else about him screams average. There is no flow to his offensive game. Everything seems rushed and out of control, except for when he cuts to the rim.
On a team full of jump shooters, running the floor and attacking the rim and cutting to the rim are quite valuable.
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Maybe i'm alone on this, but i find Avery Bradley to be incredibly overrated. His defense is top notch, but his offense is pretty bad. He cannot shoot (i've seen quite a few of his jumpers hit no rim and nothing but the backboard) he has no handles, is small for a 2 guard, and he cannot finish in traffic. Maybe he will get better, but i'm not impressed with his overall game. Sullinger impresses me when i watch him. He makes dumb fouls, but he is a very good rebounder and he has a good looking jump shot. Bradley makes a pretty huge difference for them on the defensive end, but he is a defensive specialist, nothing more. I am fine with moving Bradley and allowing Lee to get more minutes.
Bradley finished at 64% at the rim last year, that's very good for a guard, and he took 40% of his shots there too. He can finish just fine, the question is can he recapture his corner three prowess this year.
Just being an active and agressive cutter and hitting corner threes is offense enough, especially since he's dangerous in transition as well.
He finished with a high percentage at the rim because of the uncontested layups he was being fed from Rondo. I do give him credit for being a good cutter but if we're talking about a guy being untradeable Bradley shouldn't be in the discussion IMO. His defensive skill set is unique, but everything else about him screams average. There is no flow to his offensive game. Everything seems rushed and out of control, except for when he cuts to the rim.
On a team full of jump shooters, running the floor and attacking the rim and cutting to the rim are quite valuable.
It seems that he always has an opportunity to cut to the rim unnoticed because his man is not paying attention to him. There is no threat to Bradley's offensive game. If the defenders actually paid attention to him i doubt he would get so many easy uncontested layups. I find Sullingers rebounding to be more useful to this team because lets be honest, they are one of the worst rebounding teams there is. So if we're talking trade, i would rather trade the defensive specialist who gets replaced by a guy who is a decent defender, rather than replace the only guy on the entire squad who can rebound the ball.
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Maybe i'm alone on this, but i find Avery Bradley to be incredibly overrated. His defense is top notch, but his offense is pretty bad. He cannot shoot (i've seen quite a few of his jumpers hit no rim and nothing but the backboard) he has no handles, is small for a 2 guard, and he cannot finish in traffic. Maybe he will get better, but i'm not impressed with his overall game. Sullinger impresses me when i watch him. He makes dumb fouls, but he is a very good rebounder and he has a good looking jump shot. Bradley makes a pretty huge difference for them on the defensive end, but he is a defensive specialist, nothing more. I am fine with moving Bradley and allowing Lee to get more minutes.
Bradley finished at 64% at the rim last year, that's very good for a guard, and he took 40% of his shots there too. He can finish just fine, the question is can he recapture his corner three prowess this year.
Just being an active and agressive cutter and hitting corner threes is offense enough, especially since he's dangerous in transition as well.
He finished with a high percentage at the rim because of the uncontested layups he was being fed from Rondo. I do give him credit for being a good cutter but if we're talking about a guy being untradeable Bradley shouldn't be in the discussion IMO. His defensive skill set is unique, but everything else about him screams average. There is no flow to his offensive game. Everything seems rushed and out of control, except for when he cuts to the rim.
On a team full of jump shooters, running the floor and attacking the rim and cutting to the rim are quite valuable.
It seems that he always has an opportunity to cut to the rim unnoticed because his man is not paying attention to him. There is no threat to Bradley's offensive game. If the defenders actually paid attention to him i doubt he would get so many easy uncontested layups. I find Sullingers rebounding to be more useful to this team because lets be honest, they are one of the worst rebounding teams there is. So if we're talking trade, i would rather trade the defensive specialist who gets replaced by a guy who is a decent defender, rather than replace the only guy on the entire squad who can rebound the ball.
1. If we are getting a big man in a trade (I.e. Cousins, Varejao) he replaces rebounding and post offense so sullys production will be replaced and improved in that sense.
2. I think you are underselling B's offense. He showed that he is more offensively gifted than just a cutter on offense when he started last year.
3. I can't believe how much you are negating his cutting ability. Im sorry but its not as simple as "no one is guarding him"
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It seems that he always has an opportunity to cut to the rim unnoticed because his man is not paying attention to him. There is no threat to Bradley's offensive game. If the defenders actually paid attention to him i doubt he would get so many easy uncontested layups.
I don't buy that assessment. Players who cut well off the ball are not all great jump shooters or anything. In fact many aren't. And Bradley has had bad spells but his jump shooting percentage last year was not poor. It was average or a little above.
There is more to cutting than your man losing you and allowing an uncontested basket. It's a skill. He knows how to attack space opened up in defenses. He is not being ignored by defenders, the eye test shows me that.
As far as your assessment of Sully, I don't disagree. I quite like both players.
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Bradley would hurt more, without question.
I like Sully, but his skillset is replaceable. I don't know anybody else in this league who consistently plays the suffocating defense that we see with Bradley.
This. Though I'd say Courtney Lee is a better trade asset than people imagine. I'd rather trade Terry, but I'd say Lee + Melo or a pick could net a decent front court player.
I really have a very hard time imagining Ainge parting with either guy.
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I would absolutely not trade either. They are great young building blocks with small salaries.
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It seems that he always has an opportunity to cut to the rim unnoticed because his man is not paying attention to him. There is no threat to Bradley's offensive game. If the defenders actually paid attention to him i doubt he would get so many easy uncontested layups. I find Sullingers rebounding to be more useful to this team because lets be honest, they are one of the worst rebounding teams there is. So if we're talking trade, i would rather trade the defensive specialist who gets replaced by a guy who is a decent defender, rather than replace the only guy on the entire squad who can rebound the ball.
Well, the scenario that prompted this thread (correct me if I'm wrong OP) was the rumor that a deal for Cousins was in the works. Sully's a good rebounder, but DMC is even better.
Also, I'm not sure what you want Bradley to do on offense. Rondo has the ball on this team, and if it's not Rondo with the rock then it's Pierce. Bradley needs to be able to score off the ball, and there are two basic ways for a guard to do that - cutting and spot-up shooting. Bradley is the best cutter on the team, and we have a sample of evidence that indicates he is a good shooter as well. The kid shot 40% from three during the regular season last year. For reference, there are 24 people who are shooting as well or better from deep this year than Bradley did last year.
It's going to take him some time to recapture his shooting stroke, but there's reason to believe that a healthy Bradley is a capable shooter.
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Well, the scenario that prompted this thread (correct me if I'm wrong OP) was the rumor that a deal for Cousins was in the works. Sully's a good rebounder, but DMC is even better.
Although you are right, the difference is actually quite small. And, in fact, Sullinger is currently rebounding better than Cousins did during HIS rookie campaign. The trick is to look at rebound percentages, not totals ... the latter is a function of minutes played, the former is purely a function of skill.
Sully: 17.6% TRB, 12.7% ORB, and 22.4% DRB.
Cousins, this season: 18.9% TRB, 12.8% ORB, and 25.4% DRB.
Cousins, rookie season: 17.2% TRB, 10.4% ORB, and 24.4% DRB.
So Cousins has a slight edge on defensive rebounds, but by a slim margin, whereas Sully has the edge with offensive rebounds, by an equally slim margin. They are comparable rebounders.
In fact, for those of you who like Cousins and his development so much, compare the REST of Cousins' rookie year with Sully's. Remember, you can't look at TOTALS, because Cousins got 10 more minutes per game than Sully.
Cousins: 43% shooting (TS% = 48.4)
Sully: 47.1% shooting (TS% = 51.9)
Cousins: 68.7% free throw shooting
Sully: 76.1% free throw shooting
Cousins: 18.5% turnover percentage (percent of plays ending in turnover)
Sully: 10.7% turnover percentage
Cousins: 2.1% block percentage (percent of plays ending in block)
Sully: 2.1% block percentage
Cousins: offensive rating of 94, defensive rating of 105
Sully: offensive rating of 110, defensive rating of 102
Cousins: 1.14 PPS (number of points generated per shot attempt)
Sully: 1.17 PPS
Sully, now, is better, or at least more efficient, than Cousins was as a rookie at almost every measurable level of basketball. The only difference is he gets significantly fewer minutes (which is to be expected due to the differences between being drafted to the Boston Celtics versus the Kings).
All the numbers indicate that Sully is a special player. And I think he has more upside than DMC, in all honesty, simply by virtue of not being insane. Everyone says Sully has great BBIQ, has anyone ever said the same about Cousins?
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Maybe i'm alone on this, but i find Avery Bradley to be incredibly overrated. His defense is top notch, but his offense is pretty bad. He cannot shoot (i've seen quite a few of his jumpers hit no rim and nothing but the backboard) he has no handles, is small for a 2 guard, and he cannot finish in traffic. Maybe he will get better, but i'm not impressed with his overall game. Sullinger impresses me when i watch him. He makes dumb fouls, but he is a very good rebounder and he has a good looking jump shot. Bradley makes a pretty huge difference for them on the defensive end, but he is a defensive specialist, nothing more. I am fine with moving Bradley and allowing Lee to get more minutes.
Bradley finished at 64% at the rim last year, that's very good for a guard, and he took 40% of his shots there too. He can finish just fine, the question is can he recapture his corner three prowess this year.
Just being an active and agressive cutter and hitting corner threes is offense enough, especially since he's dangerous in transition as well.
He finished with a high percentage at the rim because of the uncontested layups he was being fed from Rondo. I do give him credit for being a good cutter but if we're talking about a guy being untradeable Bradley shouldn't be in the discussion IMO. His defensive skill set is unique, but everything else about him screams average. There is no flow to his offensive game. Everything seems rushed and out of control, except for when he cuts to the rim.
On a team full of jump shooters, running the floor and attacking the rim and cutting to the rim are quite valuable.
It seems that he always has an opportunity to cut to the rim unnoticed because his man is not paying attention to him. There is no threat to Bradley's offensive game. If the defenders actually paid attention to him i doubt he would get so many easy uncontested layups. I find Sullingers rebounding to be more useful to this team because lets be honest, they are one of the worst rebounding teams there is. So if we're talking trade, i would rather trade the defensive specialist who gets replaced by a guy who is a decent defender, rather than replace the only guy on the entire squad who can rebound the ball.
1. If we are getting a big man in a trade (I.e. Cousins, Varejao) he replaces rebounding and post offense so sullys production will be replaced and improved in that sense.
2. I think you are underselling B's offense. He showed that he is more offensively gifted than just a cutter on offense when he started last year.
3. I can't believe how much you are negating his cutting ability. Im sorry but its not as simple as "no one is guarding him"
1. In my opinion it's only smart to trade Sullinger if you are getting back a dominate rebounder like Varajao. Like the above poster mentioned, Cousins isn't that much better at rebounding than Sullinger is at the moment and Sullinger is only a rookie.
2. I remember the game that Bradley had against the Hawks but that was literally the only time i've ever seen him play like that. I would like him more if he played that well more often, but he honestly doesn't.
3. Okay, i'm probably selling him short in his ability to cut, but that's not the portion of his game that's irreplaceable. There are other wings in the league who cut just as well (Matt Barnes). The only irreplaceable part of his game is perimeter defense.
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I like that someone brought out the fact that Sullinger is still a rookie. Which one would I part with? Bradley. Bradley is two years closer to a big pay day. Sully is already a contributing member of the Celtics. Sully has already played in more games as a rookie than Bradley did his entire rookie season.
Do you know how good a rookie has to be to play meaningful minutes for Doc Rivers? It is practically unheard of since the Big Three got together.
I think we see what Bradley is and what he is going to be, and I like it don't get me wrong. But we are just now seeing the very tip of the iceberg that is Sully's game. The Celtics go to him maybe twice a game on the post and he rarely looks to score. When he gets the green light and the refs start giving him some respect his game should easily go up another level or two.
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It seems that he always has an opportunity to cut to the rim unnoticed because his man is not paying attention to him. There is no threat to Bradley's offensive game. If the defenders actually paid attention to him i doubt he would get so many easy uncontested layups.
I don't buy that assessment. Players who cut well off the ball are not all great jump shooters or anything. In fact many aren't. And Bradley has had bad spells but his jump shooting percentage last year was not poor. It was average or a little above.
There is more to cutting than your man losing you and allowing an uncontested basket. It's a skill. He knows how to attack space opened up in defenses. He is not being ignored by defenders, the eye test shows me that.
As far as your assessment of Sully, I don't disagree. I quite like both players.
Bradley has good form on his jump shot, but i've honestly never seen a player completely miss iron more than Bradley does. I have seen him draw nothing but backboard from a straight away angle. How is that possible? Have you ever seen a good shooter draw nothing but backboard on a shot from the top of the key? There is something about his offensive game that is erratic and out of control. There is no "smoothness" or so to speak. Maybe i was spoiled by seeing Ray shoot the ball for the C's.
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I like that someone brought out the fact that Sullinger is still a rookie. Which one would I part with? Bradley. Bradley is two years closer to a big pay day. Sully is already a contributing member of the Celtics. Sully has already played in more games as a rookie than Bradley did his entire rookie season.
Do you know how good a rookie has to be to play meaningful minutes for Doc Rivers? It is practically unheard of since the Big Three got together.
I think we see what Bradley is and what he is going to be, and I like it don't get me wrong. But we are just now seeing the very tip of the iceberg that is Sully's game. The Celtics go to him maybe twice a game on the post and he rarely looks to score. When he gets the green light and the refs start giving him some respect his game should easily go up another level or two.
Totally agree here.
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Well, the scenario that prompted this thread (correct me if I'm wrong OP) was the rumor that a deal for Cousins was in the works. Sully's a good rebounder, but DMC is even better.
Although you are right, the difference is actually quite small. And, in fact, Sullinger is currently rebounding better than Cousins did during HIS rookie campaign. The trick is to look at rebound percentages, not totals ... the latter is a function of minutes played, the former is purely a function of skill.
Sully: 17.6% TRB, 12.7% ORB, and 22.4% DRB.
Cousins, this season: 18.9% TRB, 12.8% ORB, and 25.4% DRB.
Cousins, rookie season: 17.2% TRB, 10.4% ORB, and 24.4% DRB.
So Cousins has a slight edge on defensive rebounds, but by a slim margin, whereas Sully has the edge with offensive rebounds, by an equally slim margin. They are comparable rebounders.
In fact, for those of you who like Cousins and his development so much, compare the REST of Cousins' rookie year with Sully's. Remember, you can't look at TOTALS, because Cousins got 10 more minutes per game than Sully.
Cousins: 43% shooting (TS% = 48.4)
Sully: 47.1% shooting (TS% = 51.9)
Cousins: 68.7% free throw shooting
Sully: 76.1% free throw shooting
Cousins: 18.5% turnover percentage (percent of plays ending in turnover)
Sully: 10.7% turnover percentage
Cousins: 2.1% block percentage (percent of plays ending in block)
Sully: 2.1% block percentage
Cousins: offensive rating of 94, defensive rating of 105
Sully: offensive rating of 110, defensive rating of 102
Cousins: 1.14 PPS (number of points generated per shot attempt)
Sully: 1.17 PPS
Sully, now, is better, or at least more efficient, than Cousins was as a rookie at almost every measurable level of basketball. The only difference is he gets significantly fewer minutes (which is to be expected due to the differences between being drafted to the Boston Celtics versus the Kings).
All the numbers indicate that Sully is a special player. And I think he has more upside than DMC, in all honesty, simply by virtue of not being insane. Everyone says Sully has great BBIQ, has anyone ever said the same about Cousins?
The part you're leaving out is that Cousins is asked to create a lot of the offense for the Kings. This is what leads to the low FG% and high turnover rates. We only ask Sully to rebound, make his rotations and take wide open shots. Naturally, he's going to turn the ball over less and shoot a higher percentage.
That's not to say that Cousins' FG% isn't a valid concern. It is, and given his occasional tendency to think he's a shooting guard, it may not get a lot better. That's one of my biggest worries with Cousins.
Other than that, I disagree that Sully has a higher ceiling. DMC is bigger and more athletic than Sully, and he's just as skilled. He has the tools to be a star. The question is whether he'll get his head right and make a commitment to consistently do the things that winning teams do.
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i trade both for cousins
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I like that someone brought out the fact that Sullinger is still a rookie. Which one would I part with? Bradley. Bradley is two years closer to a big pay day. Sully is already a contributing member of the Celtics. Sully has already played in more games as a rookie than Bradley did his entire rookie season.
Do you know how good a rookie has to be to play meaningful minutes for Doc Rivers? It is practically unheard of since the Big Three got together.
I think we see what Bradley is and what he is going to be, and I like it don't get me wrong. But we are just now seeing the very tip of the iceberg that is Sully's game. The Celtics go to him maybe twice a game on the post and he rarely looks to score. When he gets the green light and the refs start giving him some respect his game should easily go up another level or two.
Bear in mind, Bradley had Rondo and Ray Allen in 2010-11 ahead of him at the 1/2. A struggling Bass was ahead of Sullinger.
Glen Davis even got some minutes as a rookie during the title run.
I still agree that Sullinger is a player though. And he has potential to be as impactful overall as Bradley.
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It seems that he always has an opportunity to cut to the rim unnoticed because his man is not paying attention to him. There is no threat to Bradley's offensive game. If the defenders actually paid attention to him i doubt he would get so many easy uncontested layups.
I don't buy that assessment. Players who cut well off the ball are not all great jump shooters or anything. In fact many aren't. And Bradley has had bad spells but his jump shooting percentage last year was not poor. It was average or a little above.
There is more to cutting than your man losing you and allowing an uncontested basket. It's a skill. He knows how to attack space opened up in defenses. He is not being ignored by defenders, the eye test shows me that.
As far as your assessment of Sully, I don't disagree. I quite like both players.
Bradley has good form on his jump shot, but i've honestly never seen a player completely miss iron more than Bradley does. I have seen him draw nothing but backboard from a straight away angle. How is that possible? Have you ever seen a good shooter draw nothing but backboard on a shot from the top of the key? There is something about his offensive game that is erratic and out of control. There is no "smoothness" or so to speak. Maybe i was spoiled by seeing Ray shoot the ball for the C's.
He is not textbook smooth like Ray but he can make shots. The fact that his percentages are pretty good are proof of a turnaround because yes he had an ugly stretch.
He seems rusty again right now but the kid can shoot.
A lot of it, to me, is the speed with which he plays. It's also what allows him to fly past people on the break and cut with such quickness.
I think he will improve as a shooter, this year and going forward.
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I think Bradley is more important to this team, but I have an unhealthy love affair with Sully.
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I like that someone brought out the fact that Sullinger is still a rookie. Which one would I part with? Bradley. Bradley is two years closer to a big pay day. Sully is already a contributing member of the Celtics. Sully has already played in more games as a rookie than Bradley did his entire rookie season.
Do you know how good a rookie has to be to play meaningful minutes for Doc Rivers? It is practically unheard of since the Big Three got together.
I think we see what Bradley is and what he is going to be, and I like it don't get me wrong. But we are just now seeing the very tip of the iceberg that is Sully's game. The Celtics go to him maybe twice a game on the post and he rarely looks to score. When he gets the green light and the refs start giving him some respect his game should easily go up another level or two.
Bear in mind, Bradley had Rondo and Ray Allen in 2010-11 ahead of him at the 1/2. A struggling Bass was ahead of Sullinger.
Glen Davis even got some minutes as a rookie during the title run.
I still agree that Sullinger is a player though. And he has potential to be as impactful overall as Bradley.
Glenn Davis played 13 minutes a game in his rookie season. And most of that was 4th quarter mop up duty as we were blowing teams out almost nightly back then. Avery's rookie year Nate Robinson was getting 18min/game.
Sullinger has Bass, Collins, Green, KG, and Wilcox fighting for playing time. All veterans and all outplayed with the exception of KG.
Plus you have to factor in that refs haven't been kind to Sully and he has lost some playing time to questionable fouls.
My overall point being, name another rookie who Doc has given significant time to their rookie season. Maybe back in Rondo's first year, but since the big three got together he has barely let rookies see the floor.
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My overall point being, name another rookie who Doc has given significant time to their rookie season. Maybe back in Rondo's first year, but since the big three got together he has barely let rookies see the floor.
yup very true. this is the main reason why I made the claim a few weeks back that we're showcasing Sully for a mid-season trade.
although now the roster cuts concern me. was hoping Ainge was working a 3 nickels for a quarter type scenario...
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I like that someone brought out the fact that Sullinger is still a rookie. Which one would I part with? Bradley. Bradley is two years closer to a big pay day. Sully is already a contributing member of the Celtics. Sully has already played in more games as a rookie than Bradley did his entire rookie season.
Do you know how good a rookie has to be to play meaningful minutes for Doc Rivers? It is practically unheard of since the Big Three got together.
I think we see what Bradley is and what he is going to be, and I like it don't get me wrong. But we are just now seeing the very tip of the iceberg that is Sully's game. The Celtics go to him maybe twice a game on the post and he rarely looks to score. When he gets the green light and the refs start giving him some respect his game should easily go up another level or two.
Bear in mind, Bradley had Rondo and Ray Allen in 2010-11 ahead of him at the 1/2. A struggling Bass was ahead of Sullinger.
Glen Davis even got some minutes as a rookie during the title run.
I still agree that Sullinger is a player though. And he has potential to be as impactful overall as Bradley.
Glenn Davis played 13 minutes a game in his rookie season. And most of that was 4th quarter mop up duty as we were blowing teams out almost nightly back then. Avery's rookie year Nate Robinson was getting 18min/game.
Sullinger has Bass, Collins, Green, KG, and Wilcox fighting for playing time. All veterans and all outplayed with the exception of KG.
Plus you have to factor in that refs haven't been kind to Sully and he has lost some playing time to questionable fouls.
My overall point being, name another rookie who Doc has given significant time to their rookie season. Maybe back in Rondo's first year, but since the big three got together he has barely let rookies see the floor.
I recall Davis getting minutes in meaningful parts of many games as a rookie. He and Powe were practically taking turns as the primary backup to KG.
As for this year, Green stinks as a 4, KG is limited to 29 minutes per night, Wilcox is injured, Collins is old and pretty bad, and Bass (a career backup forced to be a starter) was in a funk for a month or 2. The 4/5 positions are at their weakest since the big 3 era started.
Nonetheless, I am agreeing that Sullinger is good. I just wouldn't make too big a deal about how quickly he has earned minutes yet, when comparing his ceiling to Bradley's. Also, Bradley was a raw freshman when he entered the NBA. Sullinger, a sophomore. That 1 year makes a pretty big difference.
Also, I'm not convinced Sullinger can be a scorer on the block. I just don't think he his big or fast enough. But I really like his rebounding and smart instincts as a role player. I'm glad he's a Celtic.
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I like that someone brought out the fact that Sullinger is still a rookie. Which one would I part with? Bradley. Bradley is two years closer to a big pay day. Sully is already a contributing member of the Celtics. Sully has already played in more games as a rookie than Bradley did his entire rookie season.
Do you know how good a rookie has to be to play meaningful minutes for Doc Rivers? It is practically unheard of since the Big Three got together.
I think we see what Bradley is and what he is going to be, and I like it don't get me wrong. But we are just now seeing the very tip of the iceberg that is Sully's game. The Celtics go to him maybe twice a game on the post and he rarely looks to score. When he gets the green light and the refs start giving him some respect his game should easily go up another level or two.
Bear in mind, Bradley had Rondo and Ray Allen in 2010-11 ahead of him at the 1/2. A struggling Bass was ahead of Sullinger.
Glen Davis even got some minutes as a rookie during the title run.
I still agree that Sullinger is a player though. And he has potential to be as impactful overall as Bradley.
Glenn Davis played 13 minutes a game in his rookie season. And most of that was 4th quarter mop up duty as we were blowing teams out almost nightly back then. Avery's rookie year Nate Robinson was getting 18min/game.
Sullinger has Bass, Collins, Green, KG, and Wilcox fighting for playing time. All veterans and all outplayed with the exception of KG.
Plus you have to factor in that refs haven't been kind to Sully and he has lost some playing time to questionable fouls.
My overall point being, name another rookie who Doc has given significant time to their rookie season. Maybe back in Rondo's first year, but since the big three got together he has barely let rookies see the floor.
I recall Davis getting minutes in meaningful parts of many games as a rookie. He and Powe were practically taking turns as the primary backup to KG.
As for this year, Green stinks as a 4, KG is limited to 29 minutes per night, Wilcox is injured, Collins is old and pretty bad, and Bass (a career backup forced to be a starter) was in a funk for a month or 2. The 4/5 positions are at their weakest since the big 3 era started.
Nonetheless, I am agreeing that Sullinger is good. I just wouldn't make too big a deal about how quickly he has earned minutes yet, when comparing his ceiling to Bradley's. Also, Bradley was a raw freshman when he entered the NBA. Sullinger, a sophomore. That 1 year makes a pretty big difference.
Also, I'm not convinced Sullinger can be a scorer on the block. I just don't think he his big or fast enough. But I really like his rebounding and smart instincts as a role player. I'm glad he's a Celtic.
Whatever minutes Baby got, they were only 13. Sully is at 18.
I didn't think Larry Johnson would be able to score at the NBA level either. He was and presumably still is a lot shorter than Sully. He'll learn how to carve out space and get quick shots up. He already has a pretty good outside shot if the Celtics would unleash him a little bit more. Right now he seems content just doing the dirty work.
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they will be equally big loses imo. Bradley can play shut down d and sully is a rebounding machine.
I'm glad the Cousins trade was just a rumor bc i'd like to keep these two and see where we can go. Tonight's a big test vs the knicks
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My hope is Sully can turn into a lesser scoring/slightly better rebounding Boozer type or maybe a rich mans Scola.
I have no idea what Bradley's ceiling is, bc I think his offensive game is such a mystery.
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My overall point being, name another rookie who Doc has given significant time to their rookie season. Maybe back in Rondo's first year, but since the big three got together he has barely let rookies see the floor.
Rondo got minutes, Big Baby got some decent playing time and even E'twaun Moore (as a second rounder) got some useful playing time realtive to his productivity.
Bradley didn't play much his rookie season because he was injured
I would suggest that the lack of playign time for Rookie's in Doc's system is not because they are rookies, but because they play like rookies. In the past 5 seasons this teams entire mindset has been champtionship, not future development, so Doc would rather play proven players with experience rather than raw rookies who are still green.
Sullinger is rare for a rookie in that he has incredibly high IQ, he plays with incredibly high effort levels and he buys into the team system - he's happy to do all the little things to help the team rather than being obsessed with getting his shots or getting highlight plays. Sully plays like a veteran, and that's why Doc plays him like a veteran.
If they were trying to showcase their young guys purely to increase their trade value then Doc would be playing Melo out there too.
Simply truth is that Sullinger has (far) outplayed Bass this season, and he has been our best player at the Pf position.
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Sullinger is playing fantastic lately. His presence in the Knicks game is awesome. He's no rookie. How much better can he get even just this year!!? Wow.