Jackie Mac Rumor: Ainge offered IT for lottery pick in last years draft

[max215]

That's actually not all that surprising when you consider how much IT improved between 2015-16 and 2016-17.

[kozlodoev]

Just to reply to the 'Tony Parker is bigger but not by a lot'.  Parker is listed at 6'2", so inflated heights aside he is probably a good 5 inches taller than IT.  To me that is very significant.

Once again, Thomas measured 5'10 1/4 at the combine. He also measured 5'10 1/2 and 5'11 in two other separate measurements that year. He's not 5'9 or shorter as some would have you believe.

[mctyson]

I don't care how "credible" you might think a sportswriter is, if you only get wind of something like this once almost 1 year after the fact it is likely not true.

[mctyson]

Just to reply to the 'Tony Parker is bigger but not by a lot'.  Parker is listed at 6'2", so inflated heights aside he is probably a good 5 inches taller than IT.  To me that is very significant.

Once again, Thomas measured 5'10 1/4 at the combine. He also measured 5'10 1/2 and 5'11 in two other separate measurements that year. He's not 5'9 or shorter as some would have you believe.

What the heck are you talking about?

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Isaiah-Thomas-5678/

Height w/o shoes is below 5'9"

[Roy H.]

Just to reply to the 'Tony Parker is bigger but not by a lot'.  Parker is listed at 6'2", so inflated heights aside he is probably a good 5 inches taller than IT.  To me that is very significant.

Once again, Thomas measured 5'10 1/4 at the combine. He also measured 5'10 1/2 and 5'11 in two other separate measurements that year. He's not 5'9 or shorter as some would have you believe.

What the heck are you talking about?

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Isaiah-Thomas-5678/

Height w/o shoes is below 5'9"

Every NBA player's "height" for at least a decade has been measured with shoes on. That's the standard, for whatever reason. At the combine the rule is that shoes can't add more than 1.5 inches in actual height.

[PhoSita]

Just to reply to the 'Tony Parker is bigger but not by a lot'.  Parker is listed at 6'2", so inflated heights aside he is probably a good 5 inches taller than IT.  To me that is very significant.

The height difference is probably more significant for defense than anything else.

As far as their offensive games are concerned, I think it's a reasonable comparison because of how much Tony relied on his burst speed early in his career and then gradually developed into more of a finesse & guile type of guy with a reliable jumper.


My point is that there's actually no particular reason to assume that IT will age more rapidly than Tony Parker did just because he's a few inches shorter. 

Indeed, there's reason to believe he may have more years left in the tank than Tony did at the same age because of the enormous difference in mileage.

[JBcat]

Just to reply to the 'Tony Parker is bigger but not by a lot'.  Parker is listed at 6'2", so inflated heights aside he is probably a good 5 inches taller than IT.  To me that is very significant.

The height difference is probably more significant for defense than anything else.

As far as their offensive games are concerned, I think it's a reasonable comparison because of how much Tony relied on his burst speed early in his career and then gradually developed into more of a finesse & guile type of guy with a reliable jumper.


My point is that there's actually no particular reason to assume that IT will age more rapidly than Tony Parker did just because he's a few inches shorter. 

Indeed, there's reason to believe he may have more years left in the tank than Tony did at the same age because of the enormous difference in mileage.

Thomas does take a pounding though driving to the hoop.  It will be interesting to see how long he can play at this level before he starts declining.  Even if he declines to 15 to 20 points a game in his early 30s he'll still be a very valuable player.

[PhoSita]

Just to reply to the 'Tony Parker is bigger but not by a lot'.  Parker is listed at 6'2", so inflated heights aside he is probably a good 5 inches taller than IT.  To me that is very significant.

The height difference is probably more significant for defense than anything else.

As far as their offensive games are concerned, I think it's a reasonable comparison because of how much Tony relied on his burst speed early in his career and then gradually developed into more of a finesse & guile type of guy with a reliable jumper.


My point is that there's actually no particular reason to assume that IT will age more rapidly than Tony Parker did just because he's a few inches shorter. 

Indeed, there's reason to believe he may have more years left in the tank than Tony did at the same age because of the enormous difference in mileage.

Thomas does take a pounding though driving to the hoop.  It will be interesting to see how long he can play at this level before he starts declining.  Even if he declines to 15 to 20 points a game in his early 30s he'll still be a very valuable player.

The same can be said for Tony, though.

I think it's inevitable that Isaiah's game will become more and more reliant on jumpers and mid-range trickery as he gets older.

Given what he's shown so far, I have a lot of confidence that he will continue to grow and adapt.  The growth he's shown in his time with the Celts is due in large part to his ongoing effort to add elements to his offensive game. 

[OldSchoolDude]

My response to people who want to trade IT, as always, is what do you feel the opportunity cost is for retaining him?

Or in other words, what is to be gained by letting him go?

Simply your feeling that he may not be worth $40 million when he is age 34-35 does not mean the team has a better option.

The most obvious opportunity cost is not getting better-fitting trade assets for him now - he will either walk for nothing in 2018 or become a likely difficult to trade max contract.

The next most obvious: playing/development time for Fultz, likely a better player in the near future.

I think they can play together.  I don't see a problem with not handing the keys to the team over to Fultz right away.  Players like that tend to need some development time.

As for better-fitting trade assets, the question is what you think you can really get for a player like IT on the last year of his deal.

It's really hard to get fair value for stars in general, but especially hard to get fair value for a guy with an obvious glaring flaw (i.e. size / defense) on the last year of his deal.

I'm also just not sure how you can be confident it would make the Celts better.

Isn't our problem that we don't have enough star talent?  How is trading IT for a couple role players and a pick (for example) going to help that?

1) I don't think we can get fair market value for IT, but I would accept a bad trade because the alternative is he walks July , 2018.
2) I accept that IT is the best player on the team, today.
3) I get that the offense runs through IT and he is our only consistent scorer.
4) I believe that we will sign Hayward, who is a legit 20+ scorer so he provides reliable offense.
5) I believe that after two full nba seasons Brown will be ready to be relied on as a consistent scoring threat.
6) I believe  that after a full nba season Fultz will be ready to be relied on as a consistent scoring threat.
7) Today we get the bulk of our offense from IT, Bradley and Crowder. I only want to move IT so we would keep Bradley and Crowder, only they would move to the bench giving us a strong bench.
So we replace IT's offense with Hayward, Fultz, and Brown.  And keep Bradley and Crowder so we keep their offense.
9) we suffer no drop in offense letting IT walk and we get a defensive boost because we don't have to compensate for IT's horrid D.
10) if we can get a solid rotational player for him I'll take it because I do not believe IT will be a celtic after his contact is up.
11) of course if we can get a fair trade and a good player, preferably a big man (IT to the Kincks for Porzingis) that would be ideal.

[blink]

Just to reply to the 'Tony Parker is bigger but not by a lot'.  Parker is listed at 6'2", so inflated heights aside he is probably a good 5 inches taller than IT.  To me that is very significant.

The height difference is probably more significant for defense than anything else.

Well I agree with you on that.  But really that is the main issue that many are commenting on.  No one is complaining about his offense.  He kills us on def in the playoffs because of his size and there typically isn't a bad guard you can hide him on.  That results in the other four guys either helping more to cover up, or letting him be on an island and get abused. 

Frankly I am surprised that more teams don't isolate him in the post and try to rack up the fouls on him.  It would seem to be a great strategy to get him off the court.  But the way the Cavs bum rushed him in the first game was more than effective enough to get him off his game though.  Hard to tell if fatigue was an issue with IT in that first game or not.  People have mentioned he might be injured as well.

He is at the same time our best player and our worst defender.  Not surprising that people disagree on his value / future.

[celticsclay]

I could see it if they were trying to trade for a top 5 selection (i.e. Simmons, Ingram, Murray, etc).


Remember, though, that at this time last year the Celts were coming off a 1st round exit, and Isaiah was a fringe All-Star selection.


Given the team signing Horford to a long term deal, Isaiah making himself an MVP candidate, and the team going on a run to the ECF, one would have to assume the asking price for Isaiah is a lot higher than a lottery pick, even one in the top 5.

Isaiah is an MVP candidate like DeRozan is a third team All-NBAer - technically true but not really all that significant. This is the same guy that got low-balled into an MLE deal after averaging 20ppg and then got almost immediately dumped for a late first after playing well. He's always been praised and talked up and then when it's time to pay-up he doesn't get as much as you'd think.

His value has grown as a player, certainly since his last trade and also over last year, but his value as a contract has also decreased, so I expect his trade value to be significantly less than his accolades.

I think the best and most likely trade partner for him would be Dallas at #9. Dallas has always been a Danny go to for star-for-pick trades, from Toine to Rondo. Dallas has probably the biggest appetites for flawed stars in the league (Toine, JET, old Kidd, Chandler, Ellis, Rondo)  and very little qualms about moving picks or dealing with upcoming contracts. Carlisle also loves scoring PNR guards.

I'd be keen on moving IT to Dallas for #9 and future considerations (with Barea as filler) for a chance at Zach Collins. Collins is going to a great big man.

Ugh.  I can't even speak to that idea beyond that.  Trading a star pick and roll scorer for a potential role player at the easiest to fill position in the league?

Ugh.

Same. This is fairly unbelievable that it was not said in jest.

[Celtics4ever]

Well I agree with you on that.  But really that is the main issue that many are commenting on.  No one is complaining about his offense.  He kills us on def in the playoffs because of his size and there typically isn't a bad guard you can hide him on.  That results in the other four guys either helping more to cover up, or letting him be on an island and get abused. 

Frankly I am surprised that more teams don't isolate him in the post and try to rack up the fouls on him.  It would seem to be s great strategy to get him off the court.  But the way the Cavs bum rushed him in the first game was more than effective enough to get him off his game though.  Hard to tell if fatigue was an issue with IT in that first game or not.  People have mentioned he might be injured as well.

He is at the same time our best player and our worst defender.  Not surprising that people disagree in his value / future.

Well said, TP I feel the same way.  The Cavs have traditionally used defenders with length on him which gives him trouble and they physically bully him and make him pay a price and put him on the ground a lot.

[celticsclay]

Jackie Mac clearly has lost her fastball

[mctyson]

Just to reply to the 'Tony Parker is bigger but not by a lot'.  Parker is listed at 6'2", so inflated heights aside he is probably a good 5 inches taller than IT.  To me that is very significant.

Once again, Thomas measured 5'10 1/4 at the combine. He also measured 5'10 1/2 and 5'11 in two other separate measurements that year. He's not 5'9 or shorter as some would have you believe.

What the heck are you talking about?

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Isaiah-Thomas-5678/

Height w/o shoes is below 5'9"

Every NBA player's "height" for at least a decade has been measured with shoes on. That's the standard, for whatever reason. At the combine the rule is that shoes can't add more than 1.5 inches in actual height.

Well in the real world we measure height from the bottom of the foot to the top of the head.  I'm 6'2" with shoes on but that is not my height on any record of me ever.

[A Future of Stevens]

Just to reply to the 'Tony Parker is bigger but not by a lot'.  Parker is listed at 6'2", so inflated heights aside he is probably a good 5 inches taller than IT.  To me that is very significant.

Once again, Thomas measured 5'10 1/4 at the combine. He also measured 5'10 1/2 and 5'11 in two other separate measurements that year. He's not 5'9 or shorter as some would have you believe.

What the heck are you talking about?

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Isaiah-Thomas-5678/

Height w/o shoes is below 5'9"

Every NBA player's "height" for at least a decade has been measured with shoes on. That's the standard, for whatever reason. At the combine the rule is that shoes can't add more than 1.5 inches in actual height.

Well in the real world we measure height from the bottom of the foot to the top of the head.  I'm 6'2" with shoes on but that is not my height on any record of me ever.

Yea, but in basketball, when players are listed, referred to, or actually play basketball, they have shoes on.