Author Topic: Jaylen and his Anti-Semitic Friends (split)  (Read 3989 times)

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Re: Jaylen and his Anti-Semitic Friends (split)
« Reply #90 on: November 22, 2022, 06:35:53 PM »

Offline Kernewek

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For what it’s worth, Kyrie’s also said that he’s not antisemitic.

But yes, generally, I think when you’re making memes like these:
https://i.imgur.com/pXbHb6g.jpg

I’m not inclined to afford him the benefit of the doubt in this context.

Not sure what you are saying. That meme is pretty widely used across the political spectrum left, liberal, geek, populist, right-winger. Are you saying it’s anti-Semitic? I’ve never heard that, and to look at it I don’t see any anti-Semitic  stereotypes.
Well you're talking about meme formats, which generally aren't ideological by design, no. However, the fact that this particular meme exists as a response to getting called out for, if we want to be kind, the fact that he 'didn't put on his reading glasses' before looking at the video that he shared with the 'energy caption' tells us a lot, right?

In other words, his tone is basically an aggrieved version of "hey everyone, I just want to support my bro, why are you talking about all this other stuff? That's not what I meant."

Which, in a vacuum, is a perfectly normal human response. Right? Because, clearly, he's not putting much thought into the retweet, so why are we coming at him about all these other fruit (to use the vernacular of the meme).


So, this is Brown's logic, as far as we can suss out. And Nick has put another angle on this - in some ways - very reasonable response.



Let's park that for a second, because we have a detour to get to.


Someone else brought up Mitchell Miller in one of the threads earlier and, thinking about it a little bit more, I do think there's something about that discussion that reminds me of this one.

I said this in that thread:

Quote
I also think that a lot of the time, people who are upset about 'cancel culture' get accused of not being aware of consequences. I don't think that's 100% fair, because it implies that the people who said or did the offensive thing or those who support them aren't aware of the offense.

I think most people who advocate against 'cancel culture' absolutely grasp the idea of consequences for speech and behaviour.

They just don't think that the behaviour whichever 'victim of the woke mob' of the day got in trouble for qualifies as being deserving of the consequences.

And I think a similar mindset is what I think is driving at least some of Jaylen's thinking here, and I don't like it.

Follow me:

We know he's said that he's not taking down the Energy tweet because he thinks that would show a lack of support for Kyrie Irving. Again, all well and good but...

Kyrie is getting in trouble for:
  • Posting antisemitic content without any additional context;
  • Refusing to elaborate on that contex;
  • Getting upset when people call him out for thinking he has anything other than the purest of intentions.


Since then, Irving has been willing to say that he disagrees with "some things" in the documentary, but he's unwilling to say what those things are - which is a super easy thing to do for most people who are speaking in good faith about anything: to say what they like or don't like about that given thing. He's also peppered his non-apology with a bunch of Five Percenterisms which make a fairly strong case that he's not particularly serious about 'not' being antisemitic.


Now, given Jaylen's comments to this point, it's reasonable to infer that Brown thinks the punishment for Kyrie tweeting out antisemitic propaganda without comment is over the top, despite the fact that Irving refuses to take any responsibility or show any real contrition for it.

And as this saga has gone on, he's doubled and tripled down on this stance - that, fundamentally, 'this level' of antisemitic activity shouldn't result in the sort of punishment Kyrie got.

This is what makes him look pretty stupid.

So, again, I put it to you that Jaylen can say that he's not racist and he's not antisemitic all he wants, but his actions seem to belie his words.
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But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: Jaylen and his Anti-Semitic Friends (split)
« Reply #91 on: November 22, 2022, 06:42:15 PM »

Offline dannyboy35

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I think more athletes should switch to a vegan diet. It's healthier and better for the body and someone who relies on their body to perform at high levels should probably be eating that way. Rather than making it seem like a negative, I think it shows intelligence and dedication to have such a healthy diet when you're a professional athlete.

Know who else is vegan? Chris Paul, Damian Lillard, JaVale McGee, DeAndre Jordan, Cade Cunningham and others.

Semantics but as far as I’m aware none of these guys are proper vegans (no animal products) since that would preclude, well, leather shoes. That’s why they all say “plant-based”.

But, yeah, the inference that being vegan is related to “wacky pseudo intellectualism” is unnecessary.

How about fasting during the playoffs?

He observes Ramadan, it has nothing to do with veganism. Hakeem Olajuwon also fasted during Ramadan.

Right.  Similarity after similarity between Kyrie and Jaylen.

* Doesn't trust that the Earth is round
* Fasts during playoffs
* Hangs with anti-Semitics
* Speaks like he's a first year philosophy student suffering from a stroke
* Repeatedly critical of Boston fans
* Anti-vaxxer
* Great player
* Criticizes the media, particularly who owns it

  Thid was in really bad taste.

Re: Jaylen and his Anti-Semitic Friends (split)
« Reply #92 on: November 22, 2022, 06:44:31 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I think more athletes should switch to a vegan diet. It's healthier and better for the body and someone who relies on their body to perform at high levels should probably be eating that way. Rather than making it seem like a negative, I think it shows intelligence and dedication to have such a healthy diet when you're a professional athlete.

Know who else is vegan? Chris Paul, Damian Lillard, JaVale McGee, DeAndre Jordan, Cade Cunningham and others.

Semantics but as far as I’m aware none of these guys are proper vegans (no animal products) since that would preclude, well, leather shoes. That’s why they all say “plant-based”.

But, yeah, the inference that being vegan is related to “wacky pseudo intellectualism” is unnecessary.

How about fasting during the playoffs?

He observes Ramadan, it has nothing to do with veganism. Hakeem Olajuwon also fasted during Ramadan.

Right.  Similarity after similarity between Kyrie and Jaylen.

* Doesn't trust that the Earth is round
* Fasts during playoffs
* Hangs with anti-Semitics
* Speaks like he's a first year philosophy student suffering from a stroke
* Repeatedly critical of Boston fans
* Anti-vaxxer
* Great player
* Criticizes the media, particularly who owns it

  Thid was in really bad taste.

Bad taste?  What’s untrue?  Maybe you’re upset that I misspelled anti-Semite?


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Re: Jaylen and his Anti-Semitic Friends (split)
« Reply #93 on: November 22, 2022, 06:48:31 PM »

Offline Kernewek

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Jaylen supported a friend that posted/promoted an anti-semetic  book/ movie. That doesn't make him anti-semetic.

Personal history, I was out with my best friend one night at a bar years ago and he got into with this black kid who was giving him crap for no apparent reason and the "n" weird came out of his mouth. The black kids friends got all enraged calling my buddy a racist so-and-so and things almost went very badly south.

I stuck up my buddy, told the kids he wasn't racist just his anger got the best of him and I bought them a round to chill things out. My friend is in no way racist, I know that deep in my heart. He's married to a beautifully brown Brazilian lady. But he made a mistake and I had his back because he is my friend, heck, my brother.

Are any of you who are labeling Brown for supporting Kyrie the person, which is what he is doing, saying you wouldn't support a good friend after him making such a dumb gaff? If so, I'm glad I'm not your friend.

So here’s the thing, there’s a very simple and straightforward way for Jaylen to do categorically express that he’s not antisemitic. He’s repeatedly hedged and dodged doing it.

It’s the dictionary definition of having cake and eating it too to speak in vagaries and then turn around and say that people who are addressing what you might mean have an ulterior motive.
Jaylen has repeatedly said he is not racist, not anti-semetic and doesn't support things that are. Why this gets ignored, is beyond me. Does he really have to come out every time he tweets something saying he isn't racist or anti-semetic before it sinks in to his detractors and people being hyper critical for him showing support of a friend?

Second post because otherwise that's just a wall, but here's an example of what I mean:
Quote
'I saw a large group of our people from our community showing support for [Kyrie] and his return,' Brown said Monday. 'Me being proud of that support and being proud of our community for doing that does not mean I endorse or celebrate some of the things that were being done or being said.

'My instinct when I saw this was I didn't notice which group it was. I just noticed the support, and that's what I commented on. I reemphasize that I don't think that everything that is said or being done or being said is something I endorse or represent.'

Why not say 'I would like to reiterate that the hateful speech and ideas which have brought about this current situation have no place in Brooklyn, Boston, the NBA, or anywhere in the world where we play our game.'

It's not difficult to type on the phone. It's impossible to discontort. It's not throwing Kyrie under the bus (unless Kyrie actually believes the antisemitic bits) and it's a sight bit stronger than this PR nonsense from the Kanye/Donda U-Turn:

Quote
“I have always, and will always, continue to stand strongly against any antisemitism, hate speech, misrepresentation, and any oppressive rhetoric of any kind. In light of that, after sharing conversations, I now recognize that there are times when my voice and my position can’t coexist in spaces that don’t correspond with my stance or my values.
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: Jaylen and his Anti-Semitic Friends (split)
« Reply #94 on: November 22, 2022, 08:58:35 PM »

Offline GreenlyGreeny

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I think more athletes should switch to a vegan diet. It's healthier and better for the body and someone who relies on their body to perform at high levels should probably be eating that way. Rather than making it seem like a negative, I think it shows intelligence and dedication to have such a healthy diet when you're a professional athlete.

Know who else is vegan? Chris Paul, Damian Lillard, JaVale McGee, DeAndre Jordan, Cade Cunningham and others.

Semantics but as far as I’m aware none of these guys are proper vegans (no animal products) since that would preclude, well, leather shoes. That’s why they all say “plant-based”.

But, yeah, the inference that being vegan is related to “wacky pseudo intellectualism” is unnecessary.

How about fasting during the playoffs?

He observes Ramadan, it has nothing to do with veganism. Hakeem Olajuwon also fasted during Ramadan.

Right.  Similarity after similarity between Kyrie and Jaylen.

* Doesn't trust that the Earth is round
* Fasts during playoffs
* Hangs with anti-Semitics
* Speaks like he's a first year philosophy student suffering from a stroke
* Repeatedly critical of Boston fans
* Anti-vaxxer
* Great player
* Criticizes the media, particularly who owns it

This. Anybody who thinks Jaylen is not going to pull a Kyrie in the sense that if we think he’s going to stay, he’s just going to stay—well, anybody who thinks that is just naive. The next few weeks are probably the prime time to trade JB for someone good who’s under contract 3-5 years, particularly if we start to do worse than 9-1 over the next ten games. One step back in the short-run so we can take two steps forward in the long-run. It’s JT’s team, anyway.

Also, TP for “Speaks like he's a first year philosophy student suffering from a stroke” because it’s so well said - I would suggest changing it to read “speaks like he’s a first year philosophy student suffering from his first blunt” 🤣

JB clearly looks up to Kyrie like he’s an older brother. Clearly he’s going to leave us for nothing like Kyrie before him if we give him that opportunity. Best for Brad to learn from Danny’s mistake rather than risk repeating it, no? There’s no Kemba-level money available for a replacement if JB walks for nothing. And JT will leave a year after him perhaps. We are finished if that happens. We cannot afford to take that risk.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2022, 09:10:04 PM by GreenlyGreeny »

Re: Jaylen and his Anti-Semitic Friends (split)
« Reply #95 on: November 22, 2022, 09:07:51 PM »

Offline Celtics2021

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I think more athletes should switch to a vegan diet. It's healthier and better for the body and someone who relies on their body to perform at high levels should probably be eating that way. Rather than making it seem like a negative, I think it shows intelligence and dedication to have such a healthy diet when you're a professional athlete.

Know who else is vegan? Chris Paul, Damian Lillard, JaVale McGee, DeAndre Jordan, Cade Cunningham and others.

Semantics but as far as I’m aware none of these guys are proper vegans (no animal products) since that would preclude, well, leather shoes. That’s why they all say “plant-based”.

But, yeah, the inference that being vegan is related to “wacky pseudo intellectualism” is unnecessary.

How about fasting during the playoffs?

He observes Ramadan, it has nothing to do with veganism. Hakeem Olajuwon also fasted during Ramadan.

Right.  Similarity after similarity between Kyrie and Jaylen.

* Doesn't trust that the Earth is round
* Fasts during playoffs
* Hangs with anti-Semitics
* Speaks like he's a first year philosophy student suffering from a stroke
* Repeatedly critical of Boston fans
* Anti-vaxxer
* Great player
* Criticizes the media, particularly who owns it

  Thid was in really bad taste.

Bad taste?  What’s untrue?  Maybe you’re upset that I misspelled anti-Semite?

The bolded was unnecessarily mocking of stroke victims.  Not sure if that’s what dannyboy was referring to.  You could have mocked 1st-year philosophy students without resorting to making light of people with brain injuries.  I revisit my freshman year philosophy writings periodically to keep myself humble.

Re: Jaylen and his Anti-Semitic Friends (split)
« Reply #96 on: November 22, 2022, 09:21:50 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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I think more athletes should switch to a vegan diet. It's healthier and better for the body and someone who relies on their body to perform at high levels should probably be eating that way. Rather than making it seem like a negative, I think it shows intelligence and dedication to have such a healthy diet when you're a professional athlete.

Know who else is vegan? Chris Paul, Damian Lillard, JaVale McGee, DeAndre Jordan, Cade Cunningham and others.

Semantics but as far as I’m aware none of these guys are proper vegans (no animal products) since that would preclude, well, leather shoes. That’s why they all say “plant-based”.

But, yeah, the inference that being vegan is related to “wacky pseudo intellectualism” is unnecessary.

How about fasting during the playoffs?

He observes Ramadan, it has nothing to do with veganism. Hakeem Olajuwon also fasted during Ramadan.

Right.  Similarity after similarity between Kyrie and Jaylen.

* Doesn't trust that the Earth is round
* Fasts during playoffs
* Hangs with anti-Semitics
* Speaks like he's a first year philosophy student suffering from a stroke
* Repeatedly critical of Boston fans
* Anti-vaxxer
* Great player
* Criticizes the media, particularly who owns it

  Thid was in really bad taste.

Bad taste?  What’s untrue?  Maybe you’re upset that I misspelled anti-Semite?

The bolded was unnecessarily mocking of stroke victims.  Not sure if that’s what dannyboy was referring to.  You could have mocked 1st-year philosophy students without resorting to making light of people with brain injuries.  I revisit my freshman year philosophy writings periodically to keep myself humble.

It’s not mocking, it’s reality.  First year philosophy students on their own don’t speak with the “word salad” / disordered thinking approach of Kyrie and JB.  If analogies to stroke victims cause folks to clutch their pearls, substitute “untreated schizophrenia” instead. 


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Jaylen and his Anti-Semitic Friends (split)
« Reply #97 on: November 22, 2022, 10:24:47 PM »

Offline Big333223

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I think more athletes should switch to a vegan diet. It's healthier and better for the body and someone who relies on their body to perform at high levels should probably be eating that way. Rather than making it seem like a negative, I think it shows intelligence and dedication to have such a healthy diet when you're a professional athlete.

Know who else is vegan? Chris Paul, Damian Lillard, JaVale McGee, DeAndre Jordan, Cade Cunningham and others.

Semantics but as far as I’m aware none of these guys are proper vegans (no animal products) since that would preclude, well, leather shoes. That’s why they all say “plant-based”.

But, yeah, the inference that being vegan is related to “wacky pseudo intellectualism” is unnecessary.

How about fasting during the playoffs?

He observes Ramadan, it has nothing to do with veganism. Hakeem Olajuwon also fasted during Ramadan.

Right.  Similarity after similarity between Kyrie and Jaylen.

* Doesn't trust that the Earth is round
* Fasts during playoffs
* Hangs with anti-Semitics
* Speaks like he's a first year philosophy student suffering from a stroke
* Repeatedly critical of Boston fans
* Anti-vaxxer
* Great player
* Criticizes the media, particularly who owns it

  Thid was in really bad taste.

Bad taste?  What’s untrue?  Maybe you’re upset that I misspelled anti-Semite?

The bolded was unnecessarily mocking of stroke victims.  Not sure if that’s what dannyboy was referring to.  You could have mocked 1st-year philosophy students without resorting to making light of people with brain injuries.  I revisit my freshman year philosophy writings periodically to keep myself humble.

It’s not mocking, it’s reality.  First year philosophy students on their own don’t speak with the “word salad” / disordered thinking approach of Kyrie and JB.  If analogies to stroke victims cause folks to clutch their pearls, substitute “untreated schizophrenia” instead.
I want to reiterate that what Jaylen said is, at least, a coherent statement. Kyrie's nonsense is truly incoherent word salad. Jaylen's language is definitely veering into the faux-intellectual realm. "Discontort" is a red flag. He seems to want to say "contort" but he's adding unnecessary syllables. That happens when people are trying to sound smarter than they are and, often, and in this case, make themselves sound dumber to anyone paying attention.

Jaylen is better than that. Kyrie isn't because Kyrie has never been thoughtful. He's never displayed intelligence anywhere outside the court. Jaylen is, at least, speaking about something that I can understand, if not agree with.

So I'm not ready to throw him in with Kyrie and call it a day.

That said, I defended Kyrie for too long.
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Re: Jaylen and his Anti-Semitic Friends (split)
« Reply #98 on: November 23, 2022, 10:18:00 PM »

Offline jmen788

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As a Jewish Cs fan it is quite the conundrum. I was watching the (ugly) Bulls game the other night and couldn't help root for Jaylen and the team. But reading the tea leaves, I feel there is a 90% chance he is probably a hateful anti-semite based on how he cavorts with Kanye and Kyrie and hypes up hateful black Hebrew Israelites on Twitter. I think it's the first time in 15 years I've felt like I had to root for someone who I think is a bad guy.

Re: Jaylen and his Anti-Semitic Friends (split)
« Reply #99 on: November 23, 2022, 10:57:20 PM »

Offline keevsnick

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Jaylen supported a friend that posted/promoted an anti-semetic  book/ movie. That doesn't make him anti-semetic.

Personal history, I was out with my best friend one night at a bar years ago and he got into with this black kid who was giving him crap for no apparent reason and the "n" weird came out of his mouth. The black kids friends got all enraged calling my buddy a racist so-and-so and things almost went very badly south.

I stuck up my buddy, told the kids he wasn't racist just his anger got the best of him and I bought them a round to chill things out. My friend is in no way racist, I know that deep in my heart. He's married to a beautifully brown Brazilian lady. But he made a mistake and I had his back because he is my friend, heck, my brother.

Are any of you who are labeling Brown for supporting Kyrie the person, which is what he is doing, saying you wouldn't support a good friend after him making such a dumb gaff? If so, I'm glad I'm not your friend.

So here’s the thing, there’s a very simple and straightforward way for Jaylen to do categorically express that he’s not antisemitic. He’s repeatedly hedged and dodged doing it.

It’s the dictionary definition of having cake and eating it too to speak in vagaries and then turn around and say that people who are addressing what you might mean have an ulterior motive.
Jaylen has repeatedly said he is not racist, not anti-semetic and doesn't support things that are. Why this gets ignored, is beyond me. Does he really have to come out every time he tweets something saying he isn't racist or anti-semetic before it sinks in to his detractors and people being hyper critical for him showing support of a friend?

Second post because otherwise that's just a wall, but here's an example of what I mean:
Quote
'I saw a large group of our people from our community showing support for [Kyrie] and his return,' Brown said Monday. 'Me being proud of that support and being proud of our community for doing that does not mean I endorse or celebrate some of the things that were being done or being said.

'My instinct when I saw this was I didn't notice which group it was. I just noticed the support, and that's what I commented on. I reemphasize that I don't think that everything that is said or being done or being said is something I endorse or represent.'

Why not say 'I would like to reiterate that the hateful speech and ideas which have brought about this current situation have no place in Brooklyn, Boston, the NBA, or anywhere in the world where we play our game.'

It's not difficult to type on the phone. It's impossible to discontort. It's not throwing Kyrie under the bus (unless Kyrie actually believes the antisemitic bits) and it's a sight bit stronger than this PR nonsense from the Kanye/Donda U-Turn:

Quote
“I have always, and will always, continue to stand strongly against any antisemitism, hate speech, misrepresentation, and any oppressive rhetoric of any kind. In light of that, after sharing conversations, I now recognize that there are times when my voice and my position can’t coexist in spaces that don’t correspond with my stance or my values.

Because he's already said it. Multiple times. Either you believed him the first time(s) he said it, or you're never going to.

And to be clear, I'd understand either way. What it comes down to is how you feel about him supporting kyrie. Evidently Jaylen feels some need to not completely throw the guy under the bus, my guess is a majority of NBA players actually share that conviction even if they haven't voiced it. I personally don't think that equals support for antisemitism, but I get that people don't like it, I really do.

I find this a bit tiring, because I'm really not sure Jaylen has done a lot wrong here. He's so far said he condemns "hate speech" but wasn't going to leave Dona because he felt like it did good things for the community. then he did leave donda, vowed to support the kids at the academy, and condemned antisemitism. Then he got mad because he thought the kids at donda were being punished (you can argue he should have been madder at Kanye, but whatever). Then he criticized Joe Tsai and Nike for hypocrisy (which is fair). He questioned the NBA's ability to suspend Kyrie for a tweet (also fair). The tweeted what he thought was a black group support of Kyrie, before finding out the groups origins/beliefs and saying he did not support that message a few hours later.

Again, what Jaylen is really guilty of is supporting a group (black men) even when members of that group are in the wrong. Its maybe not the best look, but I at least understand it. I don't know, maybe my love of this current team is giving me the green goggles on this one but I'm not sure I see the call for outrage a lot of people seem to.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2022, 11:14:04 PM by keevsnick »

Re: Jaylen and his Anti-Semitic Friends (split)
« Reply #100 on: November 23, 2022, 11:53:31 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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Jaylen supported a friend that posted/promoted an anti-semetic  book/ movie. That doesn't make him anti-semetic.

Personal history, I was out with my best friend one night at a bar years ago and he got into with this black kid who was giving him crap for no apparent reason and the "n" weird came out of his mouth. The black kids friends got all enraged calling my buddy a racist so-and-so and things almost went very badly south.

I stuck up my buddy, told the kids he wasn't racist just his anger got the best of him and I bought them a round to chill things out. My friend is in no way racist, I know that deep in my heart. He's married to a beautifully brown Brazilian lady. But he made a mistake and I had his back because he is my friend, heck, my brother.

Are any of you who are labeling Brown for supporting Kyrie the person, which is what he is doing, saying you wouldn't support a good friend after him making such a dumb gaff? If so, I'm glad I'm not your friend.

So here’s the thing, there’s a very simple and straightforward way for Jaylen to do categorically express that he’s not antisemitic. He’s repeatedly hedged and dodged doing it.

It’s the dictionary definition of having cake and eating it too to speak in vagaries and then turn around and say that people who are addressing what you might mean have an ulterior motive.
Jaylen has repeatedly said he is not racist, not anti-semetic and doesn't support things that are. Why this gets ignored, is beyond me. Does he really have to come out every time he tweets something saying he isn't racist or anti-semetic before it sinks in to his detractors and people being hyper critical for him showing support of a friend?

Second post because otherwise that's just a wall, but here's an example of what I mean:
Quote
'I saw a large group of our people from our community showing support for [Kyrie] and his return,' Brown said Monday. 'Me being proud of that support and being proud of our community for doing that does not mean I endorse or celebrate some of the things that were being done or being said.

'My instinct when I saw this was I didn't notice which group it was. I just noticed the support, and that's what I commented on. I reemphasize that I don't think that everything that is said or being done or being said is something I endorse or represent.'

Why not say 'I would like to reiterate that the hateful speech and ideas which have brought about this current situation have no place in Brooklyn, Boston, the NBA, or anywhere in the world where we play our game.'

It's not difficult to type on the phone. It's impossible to discontort. It's not throwing Kyrie under the bus (unless Kyrie actually believes the antisemitic bits) and it's a sight bit stronger than this PR nonsense from the Kanye/Donda U-Turn:

Quote
“I have always, and will always, continue to stand strongly against any antisemitism, hate speech, misrepresentation, and any oppressive rhetoric of any kind. In light of that, after sharing conversations, I now recognize that there are times when my voice and my position can’t coexist in spaces that don’t correspond with my stance or my values.

Because he's already said it. Multiple times. Either you believed him the first time(s) he said it, or you're never going to.

And to be clear, I'd understand either way. What it comes down to is how you feel about him supporting kyrie. Evidently Jaylen feels some need to not completely throw the guy under the bus, my guess is a majority of NBA players actually share that conviction even if they haven't voiced it. I personally don't think that equals support for antisemitism, but I get that people don't like it, I really do.

I find this a bit tiring, because I'm really not sure Jaylen has done a lot wrong here. He's so far said he condemns "hate speech" but wasn't going to leave Dona because he felt like it did good things for the community. then he did leave donda, vowed to support the kids at the academy, and condemned antisemitism. Then he got mad because he thought the kids at donda were being punished (you can argue he should have been madder at Kanye, but whatever). Then he criticized Joe Tsai and Nike for hypocrisy (which is fair). He questioned the NBA's ability to suspend Kyrie for a tweet (also fair). The tweeted what he thought was a black group support of Kyrie, before finding out the groups origins/beliefs and saying he did not support that message a few hours later.

Again, what Jaylen is really guilty of is supporting a group (black men) even when members of that group are in the wrong. Its maybe not the best look, but I at least understand it. I don't know, maybe my love of this current team is giving me the green goggles on this one but I'm not sure I see the call for outrage a lot of people seem to.

This is how I feel as well. Jaylen has certainly made himself look foolish on several occasions recently, however, I don’t feel like it’s fair to say that he’s a Kyrie or Kanye just because he associated with them.

Re: Jaylen and his Anti-Semitic Friends (split)
« Reply #101 on: November 24, 2022, 04:16:43 AM »

Offline gouki88

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Jaylen supported a friend that posted/promoted an anti-semetic  book/ movie. That doesn't make him anti-semetic.

Personal history, I was out with my best friend one night at a bar years ago and he got into with this black kid who was giving him crap for no apparent reason and the "n" weird came out of his mouth. The black kids friends got all enraged calling my buddy a racist so-and-so and things almost went very badly south.

I stuck up my buddy, told the kids he wasn't racist just his anger got the best of him and I bought them a round to chill things out. My friend is in no way racist, I know that deep in my heart. He's married to a beautifully brown Brazilian lady. But he made a mistake and I had his back because he is my friend, heck, my brother.

Are any of you who are labeling Brown for supporting Kyrie the person, which is what he is doing, saying you wouldn't support a good friend after him making such a dumb gaff? If so, I'm glad I'm not your friend.

So here’s the thing, there’s a very simple and straightforward way for Jaylen to do categorically express that he’s not antisemitic. He’s repeatedly hedged and dodged doing it.

It’s the dictionary definition of having cake and eating it too to speak in vagaries and then turn around and say that people who are addressing what you might mean have an ulterior motive.
Jaylen has repeatedly said he is not racist, not anti-semetic and doesn't support things that are. Why this gets ignored, is beyond me. Does he really have to come out every time he tweets something saying he isn't racist or anti-semetic before it sinks in to his detractors and people being hyper critical for him showing support of a friend?

Second post because otherwise that's just a wall, but here's an example of what I mean:
Quote
'I saw a large group of our people from our community showing support for [Kyrie] and his return,' Brown said Monday. 'Me being proud of that support and being proud of our community for doing that does not mean I endorse or celebrate some of the things that were being done or being said.

'My instinct when I saw this was I didn't notice which group it was. I just noticed the support, and that's what I commented on. I reemphasize that I don't think that everything that is said or being done or being said is something I endorse or represent.'

Why not say 'I would like to reiterate that the hateful speech and ideas which have brought about this current situation have no place in Brooklyn, Boston, the NBA, or anywhere in the world where we play our game.'

It's not difficult to type on the phone. It's impossible to discontort. It's not throwing Kyrie under the bus (unless Kyrie actually believes the antisemitic bits) and it's a sight bit stronger than this PR nonsense from the Kanye/Donda U-Turn:

Quote
“I have always, and will always, continue to stand strongly against any antisemitism, hate speech, misrepresentation, and any oppressive rhetoric of any kind. In light of that, after sharing conversations, I now recognize that there are times when my voice and my position can’t coexist in spaces that don’t correspond with my stance or my values.

Because he's already said it. Multiple times. Either you believed him the first time(s) he said it, or you're never going to.

And to be clear, I'd understand either way. What it comes down to is how you feel about him supporting kyrie. Evidently Jaylen feels some need to not completely throw the guy under the bus, my guess is a majority of NBA players actually share that conviction even if they haven't voiced it. I personally don't think that equals support for antisemitism, but I get that people don't like it, I really do.

I find this a bit tiring, because I'm really not sure Jaylen has done a lot wrong here. He's so far said he condemns "hate speech" but wasn't going to leave Dona because he felt like it did good things for the community. then he did leave donda, vowed to support the kids at the academy, and condemned antisemitism. Then he got mad because he thought the kids at donda were being punished (you can argue he should have been madder at Kanye, but whatever). Then he criticized Joe Tsai and Nike for hypocrisy (which is fair). He questioned the NBA's ability to suspend Kyrie for a tweet (also fair). The tweeted what he thought was a black group support of Kyrie, before finding out the groups origins/beliefs and saying he did not support that message a few hours later.

Again, what Jaylen is really guilty of is supporting a group (black men) even when members of that group are in the wrong. Its maybe not the best look, but I at least understand it. I don't know, maybe my love of this current team is giving me the green goggles on this one but I'm not sure I see the call for outrage a lot of people seem to.

This is how I feel as well. Jaylen has certainly made himself look foolish on several occasions recently, however, I don’t feel like it’s fair to say that he’s a Kyrie or Kanye just because he associated with them.
It’s not just a matter of association though, it’s his behaviour itself.

Re: Jaylen and his Anti-Semitic Friends (split)
« Reply #102 on: November 24, 2022, 05:06:17 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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I find this a bit tiring, because I'm really not sure Jaylen has done a lot wrong here. He's so far said he condemns "hate speech" but wasn't going to leave Dona because he felt like it did good things for the community. then he did leave donda, vowed to support the kids at the academy, and condemned antisemitism. Then he got mad because he thought the kids at donda were being punished (you can argue he should have been madder at Kanye, but whatever). Then he criticized Joe Tsai and Nike for hypocrisy (which is fair). He questioned the NBA's ability to suspend Kyrie for a tweet (also fair). The tweeted what he thought was a black group support of Kyrie, before finding out the groups origins/beliefs and saying he did not support that message a few hours later.

Again, what Jaylen is really guilty of is supporting a group (black men) even when members of that group are in the wrong. Its maybe not the best look, but I at least understand it. I don't know, maybe my love of this current team is giving me the green goggles on this one but I'm not sure I see the call for outrage a lot of people seem to.

Well, to repeat myself a little bit, what Jaylen is 'really guilty of' is repeatedly questioning whether the NBA's punishments for Kyrie's antisemitic behaviour were justified. What you are talking about in the second paragraph is the why Jaylen is doing this - Nick said much the same in his post.

And, just for the record: I'm not outraged - I just think the situation makes him look fairly stupid: it's been own goals and unforced errors.

And to explicitly repeat myself, is there anything here you disagree with?
Quote
Given Jaylen's comments to this point, it's reasonable to infer that Brown thinks the punishment for Kyrie tweeting out antisemitic propaganda without comment is over the top, despite the fact that Irving refuses to take any responsibility or show any real contrition for it.

And as this saga has gone on, he's doubled and tripled down on this stance - that, fundamentally, 'this level' of antisemitic activity shouldn't result in the sort of punishment Kyrie got.

This is what makes him look pretty stupid.

So, again, I put it to you that Jaylen can say that he's not racist and he's not antisemitic all he wants, but his actions seem to belie his words.

As to your "you'll never believe him" bit, I don't think that's reasonable.  Now, I do find "I don't think that everything that is said or being done or being said is something I endorse or represent" to be flittering weasle words.

Look at this flyer:
https://twitter.com/SopanDeb/status/1594462258901417986

Regardless of how you feel about promoting folks of any colour, there's nothing stopping anyone from saying "yeah this is all bull---, but I appreciate they support Kyrie." Not "I don't think everything that they say is something I endorse." That's just that fence-sitting.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2022, 05:19:29 AM by Kernewek »
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: Jaylen and his Anti-Semitic Friends (split)
« Reply #103 on: November 24, 2022, 09:44:38 AM »

Offline td450

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I find this a bit tiring, because I'm really not sure Jaylen has done a lot wrong here. He's so far said he condemns "hate speech" but wasn't going to leave Dona because he felt like it did good things for the community. then he did leave donda, vowed to support the kids at the academy, and condemned antisemitism. Then he got mad because he thought the kids at donda were being punished (you can argue he should have been madder at Kanye, but whatever). Then he criticized Joe Tsai and Nike for hypocrisy (which is fair). He questioned the NBA's ability to suspend Kyrie for a tweet (also fair). The tweeted what he thought was a black group support of Kyrie, before finding out the groups origins/beliefs and saying he did not support that message a few hours later.

Again, what Jaylen is really guilty of is supporting a group (black men) even when members of that group are in the wrong. Its maybe not the best look, but I at least understand it. I don't know, maybe my love of this current team is giving me the green goggles on this one but I'm not sure I see the call for outrage a lot of people seem to.

Well, to repeat myself a little bit, what Jaylen is 'really guilty of' is repeatedly questioning whether the NBA's punishments for Kyrie's antisemitic behaviour were justified. What you are talking about in the second paragraph is the why Jaylen is doing this - Nick said much the same in his post.

And, just for the record: I'm not outraged - I just think the situation makes him look fairly stupid: it's been own goals and unforced errors.

And to explicitly repeat myself, is there anything here you disagree with?
Quote
Given Jaylen's comments to this point, it's reasonable to infer that Brown thinks the punishment for Kyrie tweeting out antisemitic propaganda without comment is over the top, despite the fact that Irving refuses to take any responsibility or show any real contrition for it.

And as this saga has gone on, he's doubled and tripled down on this stance - that, fundamentally, 'this level' of antisemitic activity shouldn't result in the sort of punishment Kyrie got.

This is what makes him look pretty stupid.

So, again, I put it to you that Jaylen can say that he's not racist and he's not antisemitic all he wants, but his actions seem to belie his words.

As to your "you'll never believe him" bit, I don't think that's reasonable.  Now, I do find "I don't think that everything that is said or being done or being said is something I endorse or represent" to be flittering weasle words.

Look at this flyer:
https://twitter.com/SopanDeb/status/1594462258901417986

Regardless of how you feel about promoting folks of any colour, there's nothing stopping anyone from saying "yeah this is all bull---, but I appreciate they support Kyrie." Not "I don't think everything that they say is something I endorse." That's just that fence-sitting.

The whole topic is a difficult one. This is an entertainment business, so there is a legitimate interest of the employer to avoid deeply insulting its customers, but it is also a very creepy and dangerous path for any employer to end up policing the outside speech of its workers.

It is a legitimate point of view to be more concerned about the latter.

Our current social information culture undercut these types of sanctions. There is always an inevitable backlash that occurs now, supporting and hardening the behavior. The NBA gets to posture, a large portion of the public concurs, but the underlying antisemitism finds its audience and the sanctions become woven into the narrative of resentment.

It may have been more effective if the NBA and the Nets just condemned the speech but otherwise stayed out of it.

Re: Jaylen and his Anti-Semitic Friends (split)
« Reply #104 on: November 24, 2022, 05:55:39 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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You might not have noticed given how well the Boston Celtics have been playing, but off-court issues have impacted Jaylen Brown enough that the Georgia native feels it has begun to impact his play. “I’ve just been careless with the ball,” he related after Boston’s win over the Dallas Mavericks on Wednesday via CLNS Media. “There’s been a lot going on outside of basketball.”

Quote
“You do the best you can and balance everything,” suggested the Cal alum. “Regardless of what you say, some people are going to disagree or already form an opinion.”

“So, you come out, you do what I’ve been doing, trying to uplift my community, spreading kindness, spreading love, trying to be the best version of myself, but also help any and everybody around me,” he explained.

“That’s what I’ve been since I came into this league, and that’s what I’m going to continue to do — focusing on that and taking care of basketball and everything just falls in line.”

https://www.yahoo.com/now/celtics-jaylen-brown-plans-focus-195626705.html


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes