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Woj: NBA Wants Hard Cap
« on: October 28, 2022, 03:27:39 PM »

Offline Ed Monix

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The NBA reportedly is seeking to add an "upper salary limit" in its negotiations with the National Basketball Players Association on a new collective bargaining agreement, according to ESPN's Adrian Wojnarowski.

Unsurprisingly, the proposal has been met by the "firm resistance of the NBPA, to the point of the union considering it a non-starter in discussions, sources said," per Wojnarowski.

Essentially, the league is proposing a hard cap in an effort to keep payrolls from skyrocketing as teams re-sign their veteran players to lucrative deals and exceed the soft cap. The classic example is the Golden State Warriors, who already have a scheduled $214 million active roster cap for next season with the salaries they have on the books.

Per Woj's report, the hard cap would replace the current luxury tax system, which allows teams to exceed the soft cap but charges them increasing financial penalties as they further exceed the cap.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2022, 03:43:04 PM by Ed Monix »
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Re: Woj: NBA Wants Hard Cap
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2022, 04:37:58 PM »

Offline Birdman

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It’s about time..hopefully it will go thru..baseball should do it also
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Re: Woj: NBA Wants Hard Cap
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2022, 05:11:21 PM »

Online Celtics2021

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This is what we call a negotiating tactic.  No way it happens — NBA owners always ask for this, and they never get it (which is fine by me — I hate the NFL’s salary cap system).

Re: Woj: NBA Wants Hard Cap
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2022, 05:13:43 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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If leagues truly want more of their teams having a legit shot at titles, they need hard caps. Otherwise, 90% of conference finals and title rounds will consistently involve the same handful of teams—namely, the ones from big markets who have a lot of money to spend.
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Re: Woj: NBA Wants Hard Cap
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2022, 05:22:44 PM »

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It would be good for the sport, but it would take a long lockout.  With so many teams making record profits, I don’t see that happening.


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Re: Woj: NBA Wants Hard Cap
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2022, 05:28:19 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Needs to be done .  Way more positives than negatives.

Keeps Lakers from just buying titles .

Re: Woj: NBA Wants Hard Cap
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2022, 05:29:27 PM »

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It would be good for the sport, but it would take a long lockout.  With so many teams making record profits, I don’t see that happening.

With so many teams making record profits, the hard cap would also be an especially tough sell.  It’s also not clear it would be actually good for the sport.  Most title winners have typically been pretty close to the luxury tax line since the repeater tax was instituted, and not massively over it.  The Warriors were the exception last year, not the rule.

Re: Woj: NBA Wants Hard Cap
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2022, 05:49:08 PM »

Offline GetLucky

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If leagues truly want more of their teams having a legit shot at titles, they need hard caps. Otherwise, 90% of conference finals and title rounds will consistently involve the same handful of teams—namely, the ones from big markets who have a lot of money to spend.

I don't really know if that's true. After all, the past 15 ECFs have featured 10 of the 15 different teams in the east, all of them at least twice:
Bucks
Hawks
Heat
Celtics
Raptors
Cavs
Pacers
Bulls
Magic
Pistons

And the West has a similar diversity:

West:
Suns
Clippers
Lakers
Nuggets
Warriors
Blazers
Rockets
Spurs
Thunder
Grizzlies
Mavericks

Like others have said, I think the repeater tax is doing its job. 4-5 years just seems so much longer than it actually is when we're in the middle of it.

Re: Woj: NBA Wants Hard Cap
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2022, 07:46:14 PM »

Offline rocknrollforyoursoul

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If leagues truly want more of their teams having a legit shot at titles, they need hard caps. Otherwise, 90% of conference finals and title rounds will consistently involve the same handful of teams—namely, the ones from big markets who have a lot of money to spend.

I don't really know if that's true. After all, the past 15 ECFs have featured 10 of the 15 different teams in the east, all of them at least twice:
Bucks
Hawks
Heat
Celtics
Raptors
Cavs
Pacers
Bulls
Magic
Pistons

And the West has a similar diversity:

West:
Suns
Clippers
Lakers
Nuggets
Warriors
Blazers
Rockets
Spurs
Thunder
Grizzlies
Mavericks

Like others have said, I think the repeater tax is doing its job. 4-5 years just seems so much longer than it actually is when we're in the middle of it.

15 years is farther back than I was thinking. More recently (the last half-dozen or so years), the West has been mostly the Warriors and a few good-not-great teams that can't beat the Warriors, and the East has basically been LeBron teams (Cavs and Heat) plus the Raptors, Bucks, and Cs.
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Re: Woj: NBA Wants Hard Cap
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2022, 03:13:36 AM »

Online ozgod

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This is what we call a negotiating tactic.  No way it happens — NBA owners always ask for this, and they never get it (which is fine by me — I hate the NFL’s salary cap system).

The players will never agree to it because it's going to be seen as a restraint on trade and earnings. And yes of course the owners will love it (well most of them will, until they start to have to sell superstar players Patriots style because they're bumping up against the hard cap).

Interestingly 3 teams contributed to 73% of the luxury tax penalties in 2021-22 - the Warriors (Joe Lacob, net worth $1.5bn), the Nets (Joe Tsai, $7.7bn) and the Clippers (Steve Ballmer, $77.5bn).

Quote
Twenty of the 30 NBA teams are currently below the luxury tax threshold of $150.3 million -- with the other 10 teams projected to pay a league-record $697 million in luxury tax penalties in the 2022-23 season. Among them, 61% of that is shared among the Warriors ($176.5 million), the Clippers ($145 million) and the Nets ($108.9 million).

Those three teams contributed to 73% of the luxury tax penalties in 2021-22.

Full article at https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/34896826/sources-nba-pursuing-upper-spending-limit-new-agreement-nbpa
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Re: Woj: NBA Wants Hard Cap
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2022, 07:32:47 AM »

Offline Moranis

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If leagues truly want more of their teams having a legit shot at titles, they need hard caps. Otherwise, 90% of conference finals and title rounds will consistently involve the same handful of teams—namely, the ones from big markets who have a lot of money to spend.

I don't really know if that's true. After all, the past 15 ECFs have featured 10 of the 15 different teams in the east, all of them at least twice:
Bucks
Hawks
Heat
Celtics
Raptors
Cavs
Pacers
Bulls
Magic
Pistons

And the West has a similar diversity:

West:
Suns
Clippers
Lakers
Nuggets
Warriors
Blazers
Rockets
Spurs
Thunder
Grizzlies
Mavericks

Like others have said, I think the repeater tax is doing its job. 4-5 years just seems so much longer than it actually is when we're in the middle of it.

15 years is farther back than I was thinking. More recently (the last half-dozen or so years), the West has been mostly the Warriors and a few good-not-great teams that can't beat the Warriors, and the East has basically been LeBron teams (Cavs and Heat) plus the Raptors, Bucks, and Cs.
but the Warriors weren't even a tax team a lot of those seasons.  I mean they were below the tax entirely which is how they could even get Durant.  A hard cap won't fix things like that
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Re: Woj: NBA Wants Hard Cap
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2022, 02:50:38 PM »

Offline Kernewek

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If leagues truly want more of their teams having a legit shot at titles, they need hard caps. Otherwise, 90% of conference finals and title rounds will consistently involve the same handful of teams—namely, the ones from big markets who have a lot of money to spend.

I don't really know if that's true. After all, the past 15 ECFs have featured 10 of the 15 different teams in the east, all of them at least twice:
Bucks
Hawks
Heat
Celtics
Raptors
Cavs
Pacers
Bulls
Magic
Pistons

And the West has a similar diversity:

West:
Suns
Clippers
Lakers
Nuggets
Warriors
Blazers
Rockets
Spurs
Thunder
Grizzlies
Mavericks

Like others have said, I think the repeater tax is doing its job. 4-5 years just seems so much longer than it actually is when we're in the middle of it.

15 years is farther back than I was thinking. More recently (the last half-dozen or so years), the West has been mostly the Warriors and a few good-not-great teams that can't beat the Warriors, and the East has basically been LeBron teams (Cavs and Heat) plus the Raptors, Bucks, and Cs.
but the Warriors weren't even a tax team a lot of those seasons.  I mean they were below the tax entirely which is how they could even get Durant.  A hard cap won't fix things like that
Yeah two anomalous things here - LeBron being a top 10 player of all time and Golden State getting insanely lucky with their draft picks and a lack of cap smoothing in a TV deal year.

I don't think there's a particularly good argument for a hard cap, myself. Anyone care to make one?
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Re: Woj: NBA Wants Hard Cap
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2022, 09:45:10 AM »

Offline Moranis

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If leagues truly want more of their teams having a legit shot at titles, they need hard caps. Otherwise, 90% of conference finals and title rounds will consistently involve the same handful of teams—namely, the ones from big markets who have a lot of money to spend.

I don't really know if that's true. After all, the past 15 ECFs have featured 10 of the 15 different teams in the east, all of them at least twice:
Bucks
Hawks
Heat
Celtics
Raptors
Cavs
Pacers
Bulls
Magic
Pistons

And the West has a similar diversity:

West:
Suns
Clippers
Lakers
Nuggets
Warriors
Blazers
Rockets
Spurs
Thunder
Grizzlies
Mavericks

Like others have said, I think the repeater tax is doing its job. 4-5 years just seems so much longer than it actually is when we're in the middle of it.

15 years is farther back than I was thinking. More recently (the last half-dozen or so years), the West has been mostly the Warriors and a few good-not-great teams that can't beat the Warriors, and the East has basically been LeBron teams (Cavs and Heat) plus the Raptors, Bucks, and Cs.
but the Warriors weren't even a tax team a lot of those seasons.  I mean they were below the tax entirely which is how they could even get Durant.  A hard cap won't fix things like that
Yeah two anomalous things here - LeBron being a top 10 player of all time and Golden State getting insanely lucky with their draft picks and a lack of cap smoothing in a TV deal year.

I don't think there's a particularly good argument for a hard cap, myself. Anyone care to make one?
This is exactly where I'm at.  the 10 highest total cap teams are in order:

Golden State
Brooklyn
Los Angeles C
Milwaukee
Washington
Los Angeles L
Minnesota
Boston
Dallas
Phoenix

I'm not sure what a hard cap would do to that.  I mean is the goal for a team like the Warriors to lose their young players to free agency.  So they can't re-sign Jordan Poole.  Or a team like Milwaukee in a small market to not be able to acquire someone like Jrue Holiday.  No Brogdon trade for Boston.  No Gobert trade for Minnesota.  Sorry Dallas, you can't build a winning team around Luka.  Phoenix we know you just went to the NBA Finals, but you can't re-sign Chris Paul, tough luck. 

The next 5 teams are Cleveland, Denver, Philly, Toronto, and Portland.

Hard cap is just a bad idea in a sport like this. 
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Re: Woj: NBA Wants Hard Cap
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2022, 11:57:05 AM »

Offline nickagneta

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If leagues truly want more of their teams having a legit shot at titles, they need hard caps. Otherwise, 90% of conference finals and title rounds will consistently involve the same handful of teams—namely, the ones from big markets who have a lot of money to spend.

I don't really know if that's true. After all, the past 15 ECFs have featured 10 of the 15 different teams in the east, all of them at least twice:
Bucks
Hawks
Heat
Celtics
Raptors
Cavs
Pacers
Bulls
Magic
Pistons

And the West has a similar diversity:

West:
Suns
Clippers
Lakers
Nuggets
Warriors
Blazers
Rockets
Spurs
Thunder
Grizzlies
Mavericks

Like others have said, I think the repeater tax is doing its job. 4-5 years just seems so much longer than it actually is when we're in the middle of it.

15 years is farther back than I was thinking. More recently (the last half-dozen or so years), the West has been mostly the Warriors and a few good-not-great teams that can't beat the Warriors, and the East has basically been LeBron teams (Cavs and Heat) plus the Raptors, Bucks, and Cs.
but the Warriors weren't even a tax team a lot of those seasons.  I mean they were below the tax entirely which is how they could even get Durant.  A hard cap won't fix things like that
Yeah two anomalous things here - LeBron being a top 10 player of all time and Golden State getting insanely lucky with their draft picks and a lack of cap smoothing in a TV deal year.

I don't think there's a particularly good argument for a hard cap, myself. Anyone care to make one?
This is exactly where I'm at.  the 10 highest total cap teams are in order:

Golden State
Brooklyn
Los Angeles C
Milwaukee
Washington
Los Angeles L
Minnesota
Boston
Dallas
Phoenix

I'm not sure what a hard cap would do to that.  I mean is the goal for a team like the Warriors to lose their young players to free agency.  So they can't re-sign Jordan Poole.  Or a team like Milwaukee in a small market to not be able to acquire someone like Jrue Holiday.  No Brogdon trade for Boston.  No Gobert trade for Minnesota.  Sorry Dallas, you can't build a winning team around Luka.  Phoenix we know you just went to the NBA Finals, but you can't re-sign Chris Paul, tough luck. 

The next 5 teams are Cleveland, Denver, Philly, Toronto, and Portland.

Hard cap is just a bad idea in a sport like this.
Unless the hard cap is sufficiently high to allow those things to happen, which, knowing the owners, wouldn't happen.

Re: Woj: NBA Wants Hard Cap
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2022, 12:07:39 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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If leagues truly want more of their teams having a legit shot at titles, they need hard caps. Otherwise, 90% of conference finals and title rounds will consistently involve the same handful of teams—namely, the ones from big markets who have a lot of money to spend.

I don't really know if that's true. After all, the past 15 ECFs have featured 10 of the 15 different teams in the east, all of them at least twice:
Bucks
Hawks
Heat
Celtics
Raptors
Cavs
Pacers
Bulls
Magic
Pistons

And the West has a similar diversity:

West:
Suns
Clippers
Lakers
Nuggets
Warriors
Blazers
Rockets
Spurs
Thunder
Grizzlies
Mavericks

Like others have said, I think the repeater tax is doing its job. 4-5 years just seems so much longer than it actually is when we're in the middle of it.

15 years is farther back than I was thinking. More recently (the last half-dozen or so years), the West has been mostly the Warriors and a few good-not-great teams that can't beat the Warriors, and the East has basically been LeBron teams (Cavs and Heat) plus the Raptors, Bucks, and Cs.
but the Warriors weren't even a tax team a lot of those seasons.  I mean they were below the tax entirely which is how they could even get Durant.  A hard cap won't fix things like that
Yeah two anomalous things here - LeBron being a top 10 player of all time and Golden State getting insanely lucky with their draft picks and a lack of cap smoothing in a TV deal year.

I don't think there's a particularly good argument for a hard cap, myself. Anyone care to make one?
This is exactly where I'm at.  the 10 highest total cap teams are in order:

Golden State
Brooklyn
Los Angeles C
Milwaukee
Washington
Los Angeles L
Minnesota
Boston
Dallas
Phoenix

I'm not sure what a hard cap would do to that.  I mean is the goal for a team like the Warriors to lose their young players to free agency.  So they can't re-sign Jordan Poole.  Or a team like Milwaukee in a small market to not be able to acquire someone like Jrue Holiday.  No Brogdon trade for Boston.  No Gobert trade for Minnesota.  Sorry Dallas, you can't build a winning team around Luka.  Phoenix we know you just went to the NBA Finals, but you can't re-sign Chris Paul, tough luck. 

The next 5 teams are Cleveland, Denver, Philly, Toronto, and Portland.

Hard cap is just a bad idea in a sport like this.
Unless the hard cap is sufficiently high to allow those things to happen, which, knowing the owners, wouldn't happen.