Author Topic: Journalists nowadays  (Read 3518 times)

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Re: Journalists nowadays
« Reply #45 on: September 24, 2022, 06:01:41 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Unwanted and inappropriate comments do not make the relationship non consensual
I was finally wrong. Boston not only didn't win in 5, but didn't win at all.

Re: Journalists nowadays
« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2022, 06:02:51 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Unwanted and inappropriate comments do not make the relationship non consensual
Nobody is saying that they do, but it's obviously not the full picture to just describe it as a consensual relationship.

Re: Journalists nowadays
« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2022, 07:21:09 PM »

Online BudweiserCeltic

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Unwanted and inappropriate comments do not make the relationship non consensual
Nobody is saying that they do, but it's obviously not the full picture to just describe it as a consensual relationship.

Even more so, when it's become quite apparent that the reason for Ime being suspended isn't for being in a consensual relationship. Something else his happening here.

So if the sword you want to fall on to defend Woj is that his reporting wasn't inaccurate, then sorry to say that doesn't seem to hold true so far with what little of the situation we've been able to glimpse so far.

Ime is definitely not being punished for being in a consensual relationship.

That's like saying Johnny was punished for being in the pool, but leaving out that the reason he's being punished for being in the pool is because he defecated in it.

Re: Journalists nowadays
« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2022, 07:28:08 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

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Unwanted and inappropriate comments do not make the relationship non consensual
Nobody is saying that they do, but it's obviously not the full picture to just describe it as a consensual relationship.

Even more so, when it's become quite apparent that the reason for Ime being suspended isn't for being in a consensual relationship. Something else his happening here.

So if the sword you want to fall on to defend Woj is that his reporting wasn't inaccurate, then sorry to say that doesn't seem to hold true so far with what little of the situation we've been able to glimpse so far.

Ime is definitely not being punished for being in a consensual relationship.

That's like saying Johnny was punished for being in the pool, but leaving out that the reason he's being punished for being in the pool is because he defecated in it.
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Re: Journalists nowadays
« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2022, 07:43:08 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Unwanted and inappropriate comments do not make the relationship non consensual
Nobody is saying that they do, but it's obviously not the full picture to just describe it as a consensual relationship.
read the long post right before mine basically saying Woj and Shams were incorrect by reporting it was consensual.  That is basically this entire thread so I felt my post was needed.
I was finally wrong. Boston not only didn't win in 5, but didn't win at all.

Re: Journalists nowadays
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2022, 08:01:40 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Unwanted and inappropriate comments do not make the relationship non consensual
Nobody is saying that they do, but it's obviously not the full picture to just describe it as a consensual relationship.
read the long post right before mine basically saying Woj and Shams were incorrect by reporting it was consensual.  That is basically this entire thread so I felt my post was needed.
That doesn't seem to be anybody's problem. The issue people are having is attributing the suspension to a consensual relationship, which is incorrect.

Re: Journalists nowadays
« Reply #51 on: September 25, 2022, 09:39:49 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Unwanted and inappropriate comments do not make the relationship non consensual
Nobody is saying that they do, but it's obviously not the full picture to just describe it as a consensual relationship.
read the long post right before mine basically saying Woj and Shams were incorrect by reporting it was consensual.  That is basically this entire thread so I felt my post was needed.
That doesn't seem to be anybody's problem. The issue people are having is attributing the suspension to a consensual relationship, which is incorrect.
I just disagree with that idea.  It was utterly ridiculous for anyone to believe the Celtics were going to suspend their coach for a full season because he had a consensual relationship.  It was clear a lot more had to go on, but the reporters can only report what they learn through reliable sources and there is nothing in the reporting that was inaccurate.  We still don't have a complete picture of what happened and we probably won't ever, but that doesn't mean the reporters shouldn't report what they have learned.  They absolutely should.  That is their job.
I was finally wrong. Boston not only didn't win in 5, but didn't win at all.

Re: Journalists nowadays
« Reply #52 on: September 25, 2022, 10:49:13 AM »

Offline td450

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Not sure why we would put Woj in the same bucket with SAS. Smith is an opinion machine. It’s his bit. Say something so extreme it starts a conversation. There are no “Smith bombs”. When I see a Woj bomb I can pretty much take to the bank that thewhat he said is going to happen is going to happen. Seems like reporting to me.
This is what I was thinking. What our opinions are of Woj, he's a reporter who created a brand based on being first at reporting. Shams is similar.

SAS and most of the rest of ESPN is just hot take, talking head bs. I can't stand it and wish fewer people tuned in for the crap.

Fixed that for you.

Woj does get points for being able to finish a sentence that doesn’t read like an AI trained on Bleacher Report articles run through Google translate.

But both of them are just access merchants.

There is value in knowing what is real and what is chum put out by a player, a team, an agent to move a narrative. How many stories do you read speculating about this trade or that trade? Shams and Woj don’t let themselves be part of that. Maybe it’s not deep investigative journalism, but it is actually breaking news, with some judgement about what to broadcast. We’d be a lot better off if everybody had the same filter.

At the same time, there is also value in not rushing to break every story and actually seeking to confirm with sources.  Woj is the one who first reported a consensual relationship, which is what started the rampant speculation, and at best it was more complicated than that.  Reaching out to the Celtics first for comment, rather than tweeting, would be a much better journalistic practice in this instance, and is how news organizations would function.
how do you know he didn't and how do you know who is source is?

Occam’s razor: the source is someone in Ime’s camp to 1) get ahead of the story and 2) muddy the waters and force the C’s into a tricky position where a “technically correct” statement isn’t possible to reply to during an expected media cycle because it might compromise future action.

I've mentioned this before. Who would have most to gain from leaking this story to Woj at 10pm on Wed night, the day that the law firm the Cs commissioned came down with their finding? And how was the story leaked? This is the exact wording of Woj's bomb:



"Suspension" for a "consensual relationship". First thing people think is that Ime is being suspended for a workplace affair. But for a year! Obviously the first response is, why? Why's he being suspended for something that two consenting adults did, that happens in every workplace in America? So the narrative is set by then. Ime is being harshly treated.

Then we find out more, from Shams, the next day:



But this report is in the Athletic, behind a paywall. So much fewer people see it. Shams didn't make reference to the "unwanted comments" in his tweet about the article:



So there were a number of leaks, the first one was to Woj, the second to Shams. Who benefited from the initial leak to Woj that made Ime look like he was being hard done by? Would the Celtics gain from it? Or would Ime gain? Did Woj know about the non-consensual part, or did he not bother to ask because he wanted to be the first to drop the story?

The second leak to Shams provides more clarity and details, but Shams put it behind the Athletic paywall.

Then Brad and Wyc hold a presser on Friday but they don't share any details, other than that it was a violation of rules, there was more than one violation, there was nobody other than Ime who committed the violations, that it was serious enough to deem a year punishment appropriate, and that Ime accepted the gravity of the punishment.

I really can't see how the initial leak benefited the Cs. I think Ime had the most to gain by doing that. It's more likely that the leak to Shams came from someone in the Cs organization, to defend the length of the suspension without running afoul of NDAs or other legal restraints on disclosing information. But they took too long to have their press conference to clarify certain details that they could publicly disclose. By letting a day lapse their female employees bore the brunt of social media and media speculation about who it was. Even now many people probably don't know that Ime was punished for something that appears to be non-consensual, you can tell from the comments on this site alone that not everyone has an Athletics sub and they don't know what details to believe.

I would point out that Shams reporting did not line up with the statement by Grousbeck, at all. It is unlikely he heard anything from C's management.

"But sources said that the woman recently accused Udoka of making unwanted comments towards her --- leading the team to launch a set of internal interviews"

Grousbeck said an investigation by an outside firm was initiated right after the team initially learned of the situation and it took a number of weeks to complete.

Not recent, not internal, not triggered by the later unwanted comments.

I think its fair to say that Charania got this wrong enough to lead readers to false conclusions about how this unfolded and how the C's management behaved.

Re: Journalists nowadays
« Reply #53 on: September 25, 2022, 02:09:38 PM »

Online BudweiserCeltic

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Unwanted and inappropriate comments do not make the relationship non consensual
Nobody is saying that they do, but it's obviously not the full picture to just describe it as a consensual relationship.
read the long post right before mine basically saying Woj and Shams were incorrect by reporting it was consensual.  That is basically this entire thread so I felt my post was needed.
That doesn't seem to be anybody's problem. The issue people are having is attributing the suspension to a consensual relationship, which is incorrect.
I just disagree with that idea.  It was utterly ridiculous for anyone to believe the Celtics were going to suspend their coach for a full season because he had a consensual relationship.  It was clear a lot more had to go on, but the reporters can only report what they learn through reliable sources and there is nothing in the reporting that was inaccurate.  We still don't have a complete picture of what happened and we probably won't ever, but that doesn't mean the reporters shouldn't report what they have learned.  They absolutely should.  That is their job.

"Full season" was a later development. And by the time that came to be, the idea of punishment for a consensual relationship was already ingrained in the discussion, so much so that it is precisely this why most talking heads have taken the position they have on this matter and disregarding all else.

Re: Journalists nowadays
« Reply #54 on: September 25, 2022, 02:14:18 PM »

Offline SHAQATTACK

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Don’t know the meaning ….. :P

Re: Journalists nowadays
« Reply #55 on: September 25, 2022, 04:40:02 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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In today's social climate, if anything regarding race was considered by the organization, the Celtics would have bent over backwards to give Udoka the lightest consequence they could manage, not the other way around. Brad Stevens is about as woke as they come and he would have never signed off on the year-long suspension if he did not think it was warranted. There is so much about this situation that we do not know at this point. Eventually, it will all come out.
There has never been a better way to display an inability to come up with any kind of original thought than using the term 'woke'

I can always count on Gouk to pounce on any comment I make.
Seems to me that "woke" is a generally accepted term in political discussions.
I haven't seen liberals having any particular problem with the word - on the contrary.
It's no more "lazy" or offensive than describing someone as liberal or conservative.

Of course, one word does not account for a person's opinion on every single issue. Only political morons like Gouk would make such sweeping generalizations - kinda like "someone from Tennessee", or "I hear there is a lot of racism in Tennessee" (from someone living in another country) or "someone of Tenn's persuasion". All past comments from this supposed level-headed moderator.
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Re: Journalists nowadays
« Reply #56 on: September 25, 2022, 04:57:50 PM »

Offline Kernewek

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Seems to me that "woke" is a generally accepted term in political discussions.

Is it? I always find it comes across as an empty pejorative. Maybe you can explain how Brad Stevens is “as woke as they come”, if it’s a generally accepted term?
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Re: Journalists nowadays
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2022, 05:39:34 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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Seems to me that "woke" is a generally accepted term in political discussions.

Is it? I always find it comes across as an empty pejorative. Maybe you can explain how Brad Stevens is “as woke as they come”, if it’s a generally accepted term?
It's definitely used as a pejorative by conservatives. It's used to describe liberal views, opinions and policies in a distasteful, light. It's an  insulting term

It started as a term for liberalism. Stay woke. But over the last 3-4 years it's been b(a)stardized into it's current use by conservatives to be insultingly divisive
« Last Edit: September 25, 2022, 05:45:22 PM by nickagneta »

Re: Journalists nowadays
« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2022, 05:56:54 PM »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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"It started as a term for liberalism. Stay woke."

Thanks for making my point. Liberal-minded folks invented the term - proudly I might add.

My use of the word to describe Stevens in my original comment was not intended as critical, anyway. It was used only to make the larger point that the idea of the Celtics handing down a harsh punishment because Udoka is black was implausible. You turned it into an insult.
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Re: Journalists nowadays
« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2022, 06:05:32 PM »

Offline gouki88

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In today's social climate, if anything regarding race was considered by the organization, the Celtics would have bent over backwards to give Udoka the lightest consequence they could manage, not the other way around. Brad Stevens is about as woke as they come and he would have never signed off on the year-long suspension if he did not think it was warranted. There is so much about this situation that we do not know at this point. Eventually, it will all come out.
There has never been a better way to display an inability to come up with any kind of original thought than using the term 'woke'

I can always count on Gouk to pounce on any comment I make.
Seems to me that "woke" is a generally accepted term in political discussions.
I haven't seen liberals having any particular problem with the word - on the contrary.
It's no more "lazy" or offensive than describing someone as liberal or conservative.

Of course, one word does not account for a person's opinion on every single issue. Only political morons like Gouk would make such sweeping generalizations - kinda like "someone from Tennessee", or "I hear there is a lot of racism in Tennessee" (from someone living in another country) or "someone of Tenn's persuasion". All past comments from this supposed level-headed moderator.
Lol. Continue to use woke, it suits you :)