Udoka Facing Suspension/Udoka to Nets??

[Kernewek]

Anyone think that Shams/Woj being used diminishes the perception that they are “in the know”? They used the term consensual and everyone bought it. Maybe it’s ok to challenge these guys going forward- that they are not infallible, and in fact, human like many others that push rumors?

I don't think so. They had what no one else had in terms of details so that in itself is a story.
My guess is they got at least one other source (maybe even 2) to confirm before running with it. The cost of being wrong for someone in their position is high.

These guys aren't like TMZ who pays for dirt, or these online outfits that throw crap out there and ignore libel and slander laws.

I think some think that Shams and Woj are to be inherently trusted, while others have rumors that can be readily thrown away. I’m challenging that these two are more credulous than everyone else.

I think that they're more credulous, but I also think that with this story they were having a tweeting competition and got ahead of the facts, and I don't think this is the first time that has happened.

Going back through this thread , it seems like Shams was the first to report it being a "consensual relationship" that violated team rules.  And while there have been no reports that the relationship was non-consensual from a criminal justice perspective, it was clearly much more than that, because such a relationship wouldn't have involved a two-month investigation with "twists and turns".  Meanwhile, Woj said on Wednesday night that Udoka's job wasn't in jeopardy, which doesn't jibe well with an immediate season-long suspension with a determination of his future with the team still pending.

My guess is that Woj got the initial scoop through someone in the league office, since they were probably given a heads up about the matter even though it was an internal Celtics issue.  Shams followed up with someone connected to Udoka, putting out the consensual narrative relationship out there, although this information also could have come from an NBA office source with incomplete information, or even a source from a former employer of Udoka's (Nets, Sixers, Spurs) if the Celtics' investigators reached out to former employers to determine if there was a pattern of behavior.  It is highly unlikely that any of the early sources came from the Celtics front office, as they still haven't told the players any details.  Woj's subsequent reporting (regarding severity of punishment) probably came through Udoka's camp.

Yeah I'll corroborate you here:

If we play 'follow along from the start:

ESPN Sources: Boston Celtics coach Ime Udoka is facing possible disciplinary action – including a significant suspension – for an unspecified violation of organizational guidelines. Discussions are ongoing within the Celtics on a final determination.

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1572776498280693761?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

This is all true, but it's so incomplete in some basic ways which have already been covered in this thread - it's clearly a 'let's be first' tweet.

And then he doubled down on it for a couple of minutes on ESPN - doubled down on the nothing, that is.
https://twitter.com/_Talkin_NBA/status/1572789604155023364
"I do think there's clarity looming" is a quote for the ages.

So, now, in comes Shams:

Celtics coach Ime Udoka had an improper intimate and consensual relationship with a female member of the team staff, sources tell @TheAthletic
 @Stadium. It’s been deemed a violation of franchise’s code of conduct.

https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1572810579105939457?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

And we know this is heavily measured because Shams isn't mutilating it in his default mode - he's being told exactly what to say, in other words, so that someone can get ahead of whatever clarity is looming (as per Woj).

And, when you read it, it's fairly clear that this is trying to downplay the situation - like a lot of posters have said here, hooking up with a coworker is usually an HR problem, but not anything atypical and certainly not usually justifying a year-long suspension (which comes out shortly after Shams' clarifying tweet).

[SHAQATTACK]

On the bright side 

Maybe there will be a baby Ime 

[MarcusSmartFanClub]

Anyone think that Shams/Woj being used diminishes the perception that they are “in the know”? They used the term consensual and everyone bought it. Maybe it’s ok to challenge these guys going forward- that they are not infallible, and in fact, human like many others that push rumors?

I don't think so. They had what no one else had in terms of details so that in itself is a story.
My guess is they got at least one other source (maybe even 2) to confirm before running with it. The cost of being wrong for someone in their position is high.

These guys aren't like TMZ who pays for dirt, or these online outfits that throw crap out there and ignore libel and slander laws.

I think some think that Shams and Woj are to be inherently trusted, while others have rumors that can be readily thrown away. I’m challenging that these two are more credulous than everyone else.

I think that they're more credulous, but I also think that with this story they were having a tweeting competition and got ahead of the facts, and I don't think this is the first time that has happened.

Going back through this thread , it seems like Shams was the first to report it being a "consensual relationship" that violated team rules.  And while there have been no reports that the relationship was non-consensual from a criminal justice perspective, it was clearly much more than that, because such a relationship wouldn't have involved a two-month investigation with "twists and turns".  Meanwhile, Woj said on Wednesday night that Udoka's job wasn't in jeopardy, which doesn't jibe well with an immediate season-long suspension with a determination of his future with the team still pending.

My guess is that Woj got the initial scoop through someone in the league office, since they were probably given a heads up about the matter even though it was an internal Celtics issue.  Shams followed up with someone connected to Udoka, putting out the consensual narrative relationship out there, although this information also could have come from an NBA office source with incomplete information, or even a source from a former employer of Udoka's (Nets, Sixers, Spurs) if the Celtics' investigators reached out to former employers to determine if there was a pattern of behavior.  It is highly unlikely that any of the early sources came from the Celtics front office, as they still haven't told the players any details.  Woj's subsequent reporting (regarding severity of punishment) probably came through Udoka's camp.

Yeah I'll corroborate you here:

If we play 'follow along from the start:

ESPN Sources: Boston Celtics coach Ime Udoka is facing possible disciplinary action – including a significant suspension – for an unspecified violation of organizational guidelines. Discussions are ongoing within the Celtics on a final determination.

https://twitter.com/wojespn/status/1572776498280693761?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

This is all true, but it's so incomplete in some basic ways which have already been covered in this thread - it's clearly a 'let's be first' tweet.

And then he doubled down on it for a couple of minutes on ESPN - doubled down on the nothing, that is.
https://twitter.com/_Talkin_NBA/status/1572789604155023364
"I do think there's clarity looming" is a quote for the ages.

So, now, in comes Shams:

Celtics coach Ime Udoka had an improper intimate and consensual relationship with a female member of the team staff, sources tell @TheAthletic
 @Stadium. It’s been deemed a violation of franchise’s code of conduct.

https://twitter.com/ShamsCharania/status/1572810579105939457?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

And we know this is heavily measured because Shams isn't mutilating it in his default mode - he's being told exactly what to say, in other words, so that someone can get ahead of whatever clarity is looming (as per Woj).

And, when you read it, it's fairly clear that this is trying to downplay the situation - like a lot of posters have said here, hooking up with a coworker is usually an HR problem, but not anything atypical and certainly not usually justifying a year-long suspension (which comes out shortly after Shams' clarifying tweet).

I think Shams and Woj were used by someone in Ime’s camp.

[JSD]

more from Matt Barnes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFn6s45LgZc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXxRFHTSJqE&t=10s

Matt Barnes: "I Reversed My Stance on Ime Udoka when I Found Out Who He Slept With"

[Kernewek]

It's pretty clear at this point it was Brad.

[Ed Monix]

[Roy H.]

Is the implication from Barnes and the interview that it wasn't Ime's conduct itself that was bad, but rather who his partner was that made it a bad decision?  (i.e., Barnes' "I reversed my stance when I found out who he slept with").

I'm assuming the woman wasn't a minor or somebody with a mental disability.  And, there's no real "reporting" that it was an intern or somebody with very little power.  Rather, all of the gossip is that Ime slept with a team executive's wife. 

Does that really change the analysis from a moral standpoint here?  In a practical, day-to-day way, you obviously don't sleep with the boss's wife.  But, the subtext has been "Ime had a consensual relationship" to "Ime is a scumbag who did some seriously bad things".  Should that narrative change based upon who the consenting adult was?

[Celtics2021]

Is the implication from Barnes and the interview that it wasn't Ime's conduct itself that was bad, but rather who his partner was that made it a bad decision?  (i.e., Barnes' "I reversed my stance when I found out who he slept with").

I'm assuming the woman wasn't a minor or somebody with a mental disability.  And, there's no real "reporting" that it was an intern or somebody with very little power.  Rather, all of the gossip is that Ime slept with a team executive's wife. 

Does that really change the analysis from a moral standpoint here?  In a practical, day-to-day way, you obviously don't sleep with the boss's wife.  But, the subtext has been "Ime had a consensual relationship" to "Ime is a scumbag who did some seriously bad things".  Should that narrative change based upon who the consenting adult was?

I think Barnes is just making crap up, to be honest.  There’s no way that the “who it was” is what caused this problem.  You don’t need  a multi-month outside law firm investigation because of “who it was”.  That’s was known at the outset of the investigation.  You do that because of the behavior.

[Roy H.]

Is the implication from Barnes and the interview that it wasn't Ime's conduct itself that was bad, but rather who his partner was that made it a bad decision?  (i.e., Barnes' "I reversed my stance when I found out who he slept with").

I'm assuming the woman wasn't a minor or somebody with a mental disability.  And, there's no real "reporting" that it was an intern or somebody with very little power.  Rather, all of the gossip is that Ime slept with a team executive's wife. 

Does that really change the analysis from a moral standpoint here?  In a practical, day-to-day way, you obviously don't sleep with the boss's wife.  But, the subtext has been "Ime had a consensual relationship" to "Ime is a scumbag who did some seriously bad things".  Should that narrative change based upon who the consenting adult was?

I think Barnes is just making crap up, to be honest.  There’s no way that the “who it was” is what caused this problem.  You don’t need  a multi-month outside law firm investigation because of “who it was”.  That’s was known at the outset of the investigation.  You do that because of the behavior.

Yeah, that's my take, as well.  If this was a simple thing like some are implying -- i.e., the boss's wife thing -- then I don't think that the Celtics would have brought in an outside law firm to conduct an investigation, etc.  It's the conduct. 

[Donoghus]

California Bill pushing hard for Vogel

Bill Simmons
@BillSimmons
·
17m
The Celts need to throw a gigantic bag of cash at Frank Vogel. Has Boston roots. Make him the NBA’s highest-paid assistant. Allow him to fly back to LA for his family + miss 5-6 games. Pull a Vito Corleone + make Vogel an offer he can’t refuse. This team is too close to a title.
Bill Simmons
@BillSimmons
·
11m
Vogel is a terrific coach. Won a title. Got screwed by an absurd Lakers situation last season. Has spent a ton of time with Stevens over the years so Stevens knows how good he is. Started his career in Boston. Beloved there. This has to be the move. They can’t mess around.

[Roy H.]

California Bill pushing hard for Vogel

Bill Simmons
@BillSimmons
·
17m
The Celts need to throw a gigantic bag of cash at Frank Vogel. Has Boston roots. Make him the NBA’s highest-paid assistant. Allow him to fly back to LA for his family + miss 5-6 games. Pull a Vito Corleone + make Vogel an offer he can’t refuse. This team is too close to a title.
Bill Simmons
@BillSimmons
·
11m
Vogel is a terrific coach. Won a title. Got screwed by an absurd Lakers situation last season. Has spent a ton of time with Stevens over the years so Stevens knows how good he is. Started his career in Boston. Beloved there. This has to be the move. They can’t mess around.

Vogel is a really good coach who would seemingly fit well.  I'm not sure about making him the highest paid assistance and missing games, though.

[Celtics2021]

California Bill pushing hard for Vogel

Bill Simmons
@BillSimmons
·
17m
The Celts need to throw a gigantic bag of cash at Frank Vogel. Has Boston roots. Make him the NBA’s highest-paid assistant. Allow him to fly back to LA for his family + miss 5-6 games. Pull a Vito Corleone + make Vogel an offer he can’t refuse. This team is too close to a title.
Bill Simmons
@BillSimmons
·
11m
Vogel is a terrific coach. Won a title. Got screwed by an absurd Lakers situation last season. Has spent a ton of time with Stevens over the years so Stevens knows how good he is. Started his career in Boston. Beloved there. This has to be the move. They can’t mess around.

Vogel is a really good coach who would seemingly fit well.  I'm not sure about making him the highest paid assistance and missing games, though.

Yeah, big time no to missing games.  Also, he probably is getting money from the Lakers this year that gets reduced by any coaching salary he takes on (as is standard) so I’m not sure why he needs to be the highest paid assistant either.

[hpantazo]

California Bill pushing hard for Vogel

Bill Simmons
@BillSimmons
·
17m
The Celts need to throw a gigantic bag of cash at Frank Vogel. Has Boston roots. Make him the NBA’s highest-paid assistant. Allow him to fly back to LA for his family + miss 5-6 games. Pull a Vito Corleone + make Vogel an offer he can’t refuse. This team is too close to a title.
Bill Simmons
@BillSimmons
·
11m
Vogel is a terrific coach. Won a title. Got screwed by an absurd Lakers situation last season. Has spent a ton of time with Stevens over the years so Stevens knows how good he is. Started his career in Boston. Beloved there. This has to be the move. They can’t mess around.

Vogel is a really good coach who would seemingly fit well.  I'm not sure about making him the highest paid assistance and missing games, though.

It’s not our money and it doesn’t impact the salary cap so I’m good with paying him what he wants

[BudweiserCeltic]

Is the implication from Barnes and the interview that it wasn't Ime's conduct itself that was bad, but rather who his partner was that made it a bad decision?  (i.e., Barnes' "I reversed my stance when I found out who he slept with").

I'm assuming the woman wasn't a minor or somebody with a mental disability.  And, there's no real "reporting" that it was an intern or somebody with very little power.  Rather, all of the gossip is that Ime slept with a team executive's wife. 

Does that really change the analysis from a moral standpoint here?  In a practical, day-to-day way, you obviously don't sleep with the boss's wife.  But, the subtext has been "Ime had a consensual relationship" to "Ime is a scumbag who did some seriously bad things".  Should that narrative change based upon who the consenting adult was?

I think Barnes is just making crap up, to be honest.  There’s no way that the “who it was” is what caused this problem.  You don’t need  a multi-month outside law firm investigation because of “who it was”.  That’s was known at the outset of the investigation.  You do that because of the behavior.

Yeah, that's my take, as well.  If this was a simple thing like some are implying -- i.e., the boss's wife thing -- then I don't think that the Celtics would have brought in an outside law firm to conduct an investigation, etc.  It's the conduct.

I don't know, but Anna Horford is doing a mea culpa on her take as well... though not doing a good job of it.

[Amonkey]

Is the implication from Barnes and the interview that it wasn't Ime's conduct itself that was bad, but rather who his partner was that made it a bad decision?  (i.e., Barnes' "I reversed my stance when I found out who he slept with").

I'm assuming the woman wasn't a minor or somebody with a mental disability.  And, there's no real "reporting" that it was an intern or somebody with very little power.  Rather, all of the gossip is that Ime slept with a team executive's wife. 

Does that really change the analysis from a moral standpoint here?  In a practical, day-to-day way, you obviously don't sleep with the boss's wife.  But, the subtext has been "Ime had a consensual relationship" to "Ime is a scumbag who did some seriously bad things".  Should that narrative change based upon who the consenting adult was?

I think Barnes is just making crap up, to be honest.  There’s no way that the “who it was” is what caused this problem.  You don’t need  a multi-month outside law firm investigation because of “who it was”.  That’s was known at the outset of the investigation.  You do that because of the behavior.

Yeah, that's my take, as well.  If this was a simple thing like some are implying -- i.e., the boss's wife thing -- then I don't think that the Celtics would have brought in an outside law firm to conduct an investigation, etc.  It's the conduct.

I don't know, but Anna Horford is doing a mea culpa on her take as well... though not doing a good job of it.

Like I said, my guess is that it's something related to trying to be with a player's wife. I think that would be a pretty big breach of trust within the entire organization and something that even the team would try to keep it a little under wraps.