Author Topic: Robert Sarver suspended one year, fined $10 million  (Read 11803 times)

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Re: Robert Sarver suspended one year, fined $10 million
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2022, 03:26:43 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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It's interesting that the inappropriate physical conduct was directed exclusively toward males.  The NBA seems to have accepted that the four occasions where this happened were a "boys will be boys" situation of crude humor. 

Maybe it's not gender discrimination, but having another man's naked penis shoved in my face at work sure sounds like a hostile work environment to me.  Why aren't these dudes suing?  The NBA seems to have established liability.

We’re any of these guys his friends? That’s the only real sense I can make of that.

If you're a billionaire, most everyone pretends to be your friend.

Yeah. I will say I knew a group of guys that wrestled together in college, deep into their 30’s (and possibly still now just don’t see them ever) they still thought it was absolutely hilarious to take their stuff out and flash each other. I always just thought it was very weird.

Re: Robert Sarver suspended one year, fined $10 million
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2022, 03:31:12 PM »

Online Roy H.

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It's interesting that the inappropriate physical conduct was directed exclusively toward males.  The NBA seems to have accepted that the four occasions where this happened were a "boys will be boys" situation of crude humor. 

Maybe it's not gender discrimination, but having another man's naked penis shoved in my face at work sure sounds like a hostile work environment to me.  Why aren't these dudes suing?  The NBA seems to have established liability.

We’re any of these guys his friends? That’s the only real sense I can make of that.

If you're a billionaire, most everyone pretends to be your friend.

Yeah. I will say I knew a group of guys that wrestled together in college, deep into their 30’s (and possibly still now just don’t see them ever) they still thought it was absolutely hilarious to take their stuff out and flash each other. I always just thought it was very weird.

Based upon the report, the others didn't appreciate the experiences, and complained to other employees about it.


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Re: Robert Sarver suspended one year, fined $10 million
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2022, 03:32:16 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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It's interesting that the inappropriate physical conduct was directed exclusively toward males.  The NBA seems to have accepted that the four occasions where this happened were a "boys will be boys" situation of crude humor. 

Maybe it's not gender discrimination, but having another man's naked penis shoved in my face at work sure sounds like a hostile work environment to me.  Why aren't these dudes suing?  The NBA seems to have established liability.

We’re any of these guys his friends? That’s the only real sense I can make of that.

If you're a billionaire, most everyone pretends to be your friend.

Yeah. I will say I knew a group of guys that wrestled together in college, deep into their 30’s (and possibly still now just don’t see them ever) they still thought it was absolutely hilarious to take their stuff out and flash each other. I always just thought it was very weird.

Based upon the report, the others didn't appreciate the experiences, and complained to other employees about it.

They should do a lawsuit then for sure.

Re: Robert Sarver suspended one year, fined $10 million
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2022, 03:51:00 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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Sounds like Silver's press conference was a trainwreck.


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Re: Robert Sarver suspended one year, fined $10 million
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2022, 04:08:57 PM »

Offline Kernewek

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Sharing this because some of this seems to be forgotten with the passage of time. I really encourage the people equating Sarver and Sterling to read this.

https://www.businessinsider.com/donald-sterling-racist-history-2014-4?amp

Sarver is absolutely a low life and I wouldn’t care if he was forced to sell, but literally committing crimes by refusing to rent properties to blacks or Mexicans, saying they smell, wrongfully evicting them and actively trying to get Koreans In the buildings. All federal crimes. In addition he was having clippers employees hire him prostitutes, having women come into the clippers lockeroom to admire the black bodies of Sam cassel , Elton brand and Corey Magrette. To say nothing of there being an actual recording of what Sterling did. This is stuff very clearly ten times as bad from both a volume of crime or magnitude to what Sarver did. There is a petition to ban Sarver people can sign, but let’s know our history here.
I think they are both scum and since both owned franchises and fostered a working environment where they thought it okay to be either racist, sexist, homophobic or xenophobic, neither deserve to own an NBA franchise.

That they are on different exponential levels of scuminess matters not to me. All that matters to me is that they passed a certain level of scuminess to own a team.

Like I said a few times I would be fine if Sarver couldn’t own the team. However Sterling should be in jail for breaking federal laws and making extremely vulnerable people homeless through wrongful evictions, racist affordable housing practices and being a general slum lord. I guess if a person has the viewpoint of a one guy killed one person and a second person bombed an orphanage that killed 50 they are both terrible. That’s just not how I view things.
[/b]

Do you disagree with the following sentence:

Larry Bird and Paul Pierce were both great basketball players, even though Larry Bird was a better basketball player than Paul Pierce.

I think your inadvertently making my exact point here.

That may be, but if that's the case your point isn't reflected in what you've written. I'm trying to communicate to you that, per your example, the person who kills someone and the person who bombs the orphanage are both terrible - arguing over who is worse is mostly counterproductive.

Well you have changed it from worst to best, but even doing that you are still making my point. If someone was saying, who is the greatest player of all time, and I said “it doesn’t matter, they are in all in the hall of fame!” It would be pretty silly cause bird was clearly at a different level than pierce. To me Sterling has done a tremendous amount of damage to society far outside the scope of owning a basketball team. I think it is important to be aware of things being a slumlord, doing racist rental practices unfair evictions and really just being horrible to poor minority groups that are very vulnerable. If people want to just say “hey two crappy guys” it’s not how I view it.

I’ll also add it hasnt even been just “hey they are both crappy” at least one person said Sarver was actually worse and wasn’t that racist for having a black gm which is just flat out ridiculous.

Sure - I think what Nick and I are saying is that there's a threshold of badness, where one appears to be a bad person who's presence within the NBA damages the product, and Sarver and Sterling have both crossed it. 

You are right: Donald Sterling was a piece of garbage and it was an open secret for a long time. No one's disputing that (not even Moranis) and the reasons why he wasn't booted from the league ownership despite being a trash human being for 100% of his tenure have mostly been covered in the thread.

What I am saying is that bringing it up just how bad he was in comparison to Sarver seems silly to me because the reasons why Sarver's kept his ownership and Sterling lost his are 1) fairly obvious and 2) have little to do with comparative badness.

Or, to continue the analogy: it's not about discussing who is better/worse, we're evaluating if they're both in the hall of fame [of crappy owners].

Well I’ll give you a Tommy point for a good discussion. I disagree strongly with both your points that it is obvious and has little to do with comparative badness. If Sterling didn’t have the recording on top of all the previous things including the Baylor lawsuit, the 3 million dollar fine and discriminatory housing charges, the sexual assault accusations the asking staff to hire him prostitutes (I’ve included all of these links in this thread already) he maybe would have had a chance of just getting a two year ban and max fine. So I do definitely think comparative badness plays a role in this. As crappy as it is to say this you look at what Cuban did and some of the stuff it has been rumored other owners have done (heck even look at some the things the late jerry buss did with women) and they are a lot closer to Sarver than Sarver is to Sterling. It doesn’t really seem like you are gonna change my mind or I will change yours so we can just agree to disagree.

Yeah right back at you.

As some people have said - Sarver's punishment is effectively capped at what the league can get away with without lawsuits coming into play. Ownership absolutely doesn't want to be put into a situation where everyone's dirty laundry is fair play for discovery. That's a big mitigating factor.
Man had always assumed that he was more intelligent than dolphins because he had achieved so much—the wheel, New York, wars and so on—whilst all the dolphins had ever done was muck about in the water having a good time.

But conversely, the dolphins had always believed that they were far more intelligent than man—for precisely the same reasons.

Re: Robert Sarver suspended one year, fined $10 million
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2022, 04:46:05 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Sounds like Silver's press conference was a trainwreck.

I think I saw the clip that people are losing it over. Somebody asked him why the owner could get away with things that would get your fired of you were a different employee of the nba and he said being an owner affords you different rules. Which is kind of saying the quiet part loud, but doesn’t seem insane to me. We all already know this with the players. I will admit he did awkwardly stumble through his announcements and was awkward

Re: Robert Sarver suspended one year, fined $10 million
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2022, 06:33:02 PM »

Offline Moranis

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And yet the bank he founded and owned had no problem firing him.  Papa John's had no problem firing Papa John either.  Being an owner of a professional sports team should put you at a higher standard, not a lower one.  It is a very bad look for the NBA and the press conference made it so much worse.
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Re: Robert Sarver suspended one year, fined $10 million
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2022, 08:18:24 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Re: Robert Sarver suspended one year, fined $10 million
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2022, 08:20:21 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Now you are going to see the momentum build

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/34593743/after-robert-sarver-investigation-lebron-james-adamant-nba-definitely-got-wrong

Lol. A month ago you were saying deshawn Watson shouldn’t be harshly punished because it was non forceful sexual Assault and mostly misdemeanors. Now you are the forums most vigilant feminist. Good grief. Good thing this board has a history of posts
« Last Edit: September 14, 2022, 08:38:15 PM by celticsclay »

Re: Robert Sarver suspended one year, fined $10 million
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2022, 08:42:51 PM »

Offline Moranis

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Clay, I'm going to say this one time because you clearly aren't smart enough to follow my entirely consistent line of reasoning and I'm tired of you constantly misconstruing everything I post.  So after this, do not respond to any of my posts.  I haven't responded to you for weeks and yet you continue your nonsense.  I can't just let this nonsense from you continue, so this will be the last time I respond to you.  It has been nice ignoring you and I will continue to do so after this.

There are two separate types of conduct.  The first involves team activities and the 2nd does not.  I have for years maintained that leagues should only regulate conduct that involves the former i.e. the field of play and that for all activities that do not involve the field of play, the teams should be the arbiters of the punishment and not the league.  Watson's conduct did not involve the field of play so no, I didn't think the league should punish that conduct.  If I was a team, I would have stayed far far away from Watson and would want nothing to do with him, but his conduct had absolutely nothing to do with the competitive balance of the actual game that they play, which is why I didn't think the league should do anything.  That said, I understand the leagues do punish players for off field conduct, but when they do it, they need to adhere to their actual rules and not make them up as they go along.  In the Watson case, the league was making up the rules as they went along.  Given that, I felt what the arbitrator did i.e. 6 games made sense since that matched established precedent for similar conduct.  You can't just change the rules, especially for negotiated conduct with the union, and seek punishments that far exceed prior precedent and fall outside the bounds of the actual established rules. 

Sarver's conduct involves the actual "field of play" as much as an owner's conduct could.  The allegations levied against him and which the investigation found to be true involve his actual employment with the Suns.  For 18 years he fostered a hostile juvenile work environment that violated several laws and the NBA's own rules for conduct.  He made women, men, and minorities feel uncomfortable at work.  He pushed female employees to tears for sexist hateful comments.  He exposed himself at work, he constantly talked about his genitalia, he made offensive jokes, told racist stories, etc.  He continued to do that conduct for years after being warned not to do it.  The Suns as an organization ignored complaints from employees because the complaints were levied against the person in charge.  The NBA is the only entity that could punish the conduct in this instance and the NBA had already established a precedent for what to do when an owner was the person committing the heinous acts.  That precedent was of course Sterling, who they forced out of the league because of conduct that occurred mostly away from the team.  Here the conduct involved the team, its players, its staff, players and agents from around the league, Sarver's other businesses, etc.  The league, having already established precedent, needs to keep that precedent.  The fact that Sterling was on tape, just isn't good enough because they found all of the conduct in the report was actually committed.  If that isn't enough to remove him, then nothing will be for basically any owner going forward.  They now have a new precedent which means owners can do whatever they want with basically no consequence.  It is a terrible message and quite frankly is despicable conduct.  Silver is getting blasted for it, as he should, and now that the most famous player in the world is questioning the decision, I think there will be a lot more momentum to force him out entirely.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Suns are sold sometime this season and Sarver never sets foot in the arena again.  It is after all the right thing to do.
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Re: Robert Sarver suspended one year, fined $10 million
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2022, 08:53:00 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Clay, I'm going to say this one time because you clearly aren't smart enough to follow my entirely consistent line of reasoning and I'm tired of you constantly misconstruing everything I post.  So after this, do not respond to any of my posts.  I haven't responded to you for weeks and yet you continue your nonsense.  I can't just let this nonsense from you continue, so this will be the last time I respond to you.  It has been nice ignoring you and I will continue to do so after this.

There are two separate types of conduct.  The first involves team activities and the 2nd does not.  I have for years maintained that leagues should only regulate conduct that involves the former i.e. the field of play and that for all activities that do not involve the field of play, the teams should be the arbiters of the punishment and not the league.  Watson's conduct did not involve the field of play so no, I didn't think the league should punish that conduct.  If I was a team, I would have stayed far far away from Watson and would want nothing to do with him, but his conduct had absolutely nothing to do with the competitive balance of the actual game that they play, which is why I didn't think the league should do anything.  That said, I understand the leagues do punish players for off field conduct, but when they do it, they need to adhere to their actual rules and not make them up as they go along.  In the Watson case, the league was making up the rules as they went along.  Given that, I felt what the arbitrator did i.e. 6 games made sense since that matched established precedent for similar conduct.  You can't just change the rules, especially for negotiated conduct with the union, and seek punishments that far exceed prior precedent and fall outside the bounds of the actual established rules. 

Sarver's conduct involves the actual "field of play" as much as an owner's conduct could.  The allegations levied against him and which the investigation found to be true involve his actual employment with the Suns.  For 18 years he fostered a hostile juvenile work environment that violated several laws and the NBA's own rules for conduct.  He made women, men, and minorities feel uncomfortable at work.  He pushed female employees to tears for sexist hateful comments.  He exposed himself at work, he constantly talked about his genitalia, he made offensive jokes, told racist stories, etc.  He continued to do that conduct for years after being warned not to do it.  The Suns as an organization ignored complaints from employees because the complaints were levied against the person in charge.  The NBA is the only entity that could punish the conduct in this instance and the NBA had already established a precedent for what to do when an owner was the person committing the heinous acts.  That precedent was of course Sterling, who they forced out of the league because of conduct that occurred mostly away from the team.  Here the conduct involved the team, its players, its staff, players and agents from around the league, Sarver's other businesses, etc.  The league, having already established precedent, needs to keep that precedent.  The fact that Sterling was on tape, just isn't good enough because they found all of the conduct in the report was actually committed.  If that isn't enough to remove him, then nothing will be for basically any owner going forward.  They now have a new precedent which means owners can do whatever they want with basically no consequence.  It is a terrible message and quite frankly is despicable conduct.  Silver is getting blasted for it, as he should, and now that the most famous player in the world is questioning the decision, I think there will be a lot more momentum to force him out entirely.  I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Suns are sold sometime this season and Sarver never sets foot in the arena again.  It is after all the right thing to do.

I mean apparently you are not going to respond to this, but you said a real lot of words without saying very much. When you describe Sarvers conduct as “despicable” and “disgusting” and say the league doesn’t care about sexism. That very strongly implies that you that think these issues are important. You repeatedly used language like “it wasn’t forceful” or “most of it was misdemeanors to describe the behavior of Watson. If you really think the only reason that makes one behavior disgusting and one not that bad is because oke occurred on company property that is pretty wild and unlike anything I have read. Worse, this actually isn’t even true because Watson received his massages in some cases through connections and facilities of the Texans. Look I understand why you don’t want to respond to this. I’ve clearly caught you dead to rights on your inconsistency contrarian stuff. If you walk back your Watson stuff I would be a lot more understanding. Otherwise if you want to take your bat and ball and go home cause I remember what you post that is fine. Still gonna keep responding to incorrect stuff no matter who posts it.

Re: Robert Sarver suspended one year, fined $10 million
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2022, 09:55:01 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I know I said I wasn't going to respond, but these are my actual quotes in the Watson thread

Quote
Very little of what Watson was accused rises to the level of sexual assault under the legal requirements in Texas.  The vast majority of the conduct, no matter how gross and despicable, is a Class C (or minor) misdemeanor.

Quote
They are poorly written, but the NFL didn't even define it, so what is the arbiter of the decision supposed to use.  Well starting with the actual criminal statutes in Texas seems like a good place to go to me and the vast majority of the allegations are nothing more than minor misdemeanors.  There is after all a reason that they couldn't even charge him after grand juries looked at the evidence.  His conduct is gross and despicable, but by and large was nothing more than a minor misdemeanor.  That and the NFL not actually defining what conduct yields what punishment is why Judge Robinson suspended him for 6 games.  If the NFL wants harsher penalties, then it needs to negotiate those with the Union and not just make it up as it goes along.

When I said "I would have stayed far far away from Watson and would want nothing to do with him" it is because he is gross and despicable.  Why else would a team stay away from a clearly talented football player.  When I said you weren't smart enough to follow my consistent arguments it is because you clearly aren't, which is why you should really just stop your b.s. 

Now I'm done with your nonsense and I can go about the rest of my posting in peace.
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Re: Robert Sarver suspended one year, fined $10 million
« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2022, 10:48:53 PM »

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Re: Robert Sarver suspended one year, fined $10 million
« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2022, 10:55:56 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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I know I said I wasn't going to respond, but these are my actual quotes in the Watson thread

Quote
Very little of what Watson was accused rises to the level of sexual assault under the legal requirements in Texas.  The vast majority of the conduct, no matter how gross and despicable, is a Class C (or minor) misdemeanor.

Quote
They are poorly written, but the NFL didn't even define it, so what is the arbiter of the decision supposed to use.  Well starting with the actual criminal statutes in Texas seems like a good place to go to me and the vast majority of the allegations are nothing more than minor misdemeanors.  There is after all a reason that they couldn't even charge him after grand juries looked at the evidence.  His conduct is gross and despicable, but by and large was nothing more than a minor misdemeanor.  That and the NFL not actually defining what conduct yields what punishment is why Judge Robinson suspended him for 6 games.  If the NFL wants harsher penalties, then it needs to negotiate those with the Union and not just make it up as it goes along.

When I said "I would have stayed far far away from Watson and would want nothing to do with him" it is because he is gross and despicable.  Why else would a team stay away from a clearly talented football player.  When I said you weren't smart enough to follow my consistent arguments it is because you clearly aren't, which is why you should really just stop your b.s. 

Now I'm done with your nonsense and I can go about the rest of my posting in peace.

Yes moranis I am clearly not “smart enough” to see what you are doing and I am the one that needs to “ stop my bs.” You said a lot of other stuff on Watson but I know none of the mods or other people on this thread want me to start regurgitating your old posts here so I’m not gonna do it and avoid the warning.

 At a larger level you have yourself admitted you like to be a contrarian. The problem is most of the posters on this forum including myself are actually pretty Intelligent ourselves. When you go out of your way to disagree with everyone you are sometimes going to end up in a poor situation to argue from and contradict yourself. This clearly happens with you frequently.

 I get that, and a lot of other posters do to. I’m gonna continue to respond to inacurrate or ridiculous stuff whether it posted by you or some of my best friends on the board. I think it is pretty clear I wouldn’t grind your gears so much if I wasnt actually calling you out on real nonsense with valid points. If someone just kept saying Jesus is a golden retriever to every post I made It certainly would not upset me. I do hope we all find peace.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2022, 11:14:04 PM by celticsclay »

Re: Robert Sarver suspended one year, fined $10 million
« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2022, 11:15:35 PM »

Offline celticsclay

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Getting back on topic here, does anyone think the players will rise up and force an upgrade in punishment for Sarver? I think it would be hard for a Chris Paul to step up a year + later with outrage. I don’t expect Lebron to do much more than his tweet tonight, but would be interesting if he stayed after it.