Author Topic: The last three roster spots will be determined in training camp  (Read 21439 times)

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Re: The last three roster spots will be determined in training camp
« Reply #60 on: August 28, 2022, 08:48:45 PM »

Offline Hoopvortex

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Brown and Tatum are natural SFs, but forced to play other "positions" since we play positionless basketball. Not sure if that was part of the consideration for this sub-par article.
I don't think it was in the original article, but it's very relevant to the recent discussion. Last year our starting "PF" was our backup "C" and our starting "SG" was our backup "SF"

If the C's were fully healthy they could have a rotation like;
Smart 32, White 16
Brown 16, Brogdon 32
Tatum 32, Brown 16
G. Williams 24, Gallanari 24
GWIII 24, Horford 24

With Pritchard, Kornet, Houser, Thomas, Davison, Kabengele, Vonleh, and Caboclo 
It's position-less but Pritchard isn't going to replace GWII.

I think the 9 person rotation that Grogan shows is spot on.  This is exactly what I expect to see, plus or minus a few minutes here and there.  The point is that this rotation 1-9 is rock solid.  If you consider Pritchard as the 10th, that is very solid too and he is guard insurance, not even needed in the regular rotation. 
No team is going to have a better 5th guard than Pritchard. 

I think you'll see Pritchard in the rotation. Grouping players into a big category, like "guards", tends to obscure their differences, and thus their value in playing a complementary role in a rotation. Even a more modern term like "ballhandlers" isn't specific enough for a player like Pritchard; Ime seldom used him as the lone ballhandler (especially after the all-star break), preferring to pair him mostly with Derrick White, or less often with Marcus. Simply put, what brother Payton brings is unique, uniquely valuable, and perfectly complementary to the other players on the roster, and with a range of different lineups.

He moved up to about 19 minutes/game after the all-star break last season because he got intense with his defense and was recognized for it; but the fact that he shot .473 from 3 and .620 from 2 in a big sample size in that span can't have hurt. Those are spectacular numbers. Like most NBA players, better numbers followed from consistent minutes; but we would have to say both that Ime found a role for him to excel in and that he took full advantage.

He's a conservative but willing and effective playmaker, taking good care of the ball and making good choices at a high tempo (TOV% under 10, AST% over 20). He pushes it up the floor faster than anyone on the roster, except Davison.

In short: he doesn't "slot" behind anyone. He will wind up in all sorts of lineups as a secondary ballhandler. That hardly seems debatable; the more interesting question is if he could appear in 3-ballhandler units, for instance with White and Brogdon.



In the bigs, we have 4 solid bigs and Kornet right now. 

I'm pretty sure that you're including Grant and Gallo with the bigs, but again I think your terminology is too broad, and in particular doesn't account for Grant's uniqueness.

But it's Gallinari who fits less well with the bigs on the roster. He's a swing or even a wing. Best to call him a swing, since he doesn't have the feet to guard wings.

He does not do the things that are most needed from bigs in today's game: he's a weak paint- and rim-protector, a poor defensive rebounder, and a nearly non-existent offensive rebounder. He's a scorer - part 2 of Brad revising the roster to get more scoring off the bench. But you will never see him as the lone big, the way you will routinely see Al or Rob.

As for Grant, his paint-protection brings him closer to a big than Gallo's; but his rebounding is similarly weak. He is not a weak-side shotblocker, but he's got enough anticipation to get blocks on drivers and on his own man, despite his unimpressive length. Great lower body, which he uses effectively at guarding bigs. Excellent team defender, talks and knows the scouting report better than anyone, sees the play developing and rotates correctly.

On offense he might as well be a "shooting guard".

Probably best to call him a swing, since his game is more wing than anything, even though he can guard bigs.

I don't know if the Celtics see Kornet as an actual viable 3rd center...   

...Vonleh as a PF/C and Kornet as a C/PF.

If by "viable" you mean "rotation", the answer is no. But given the potential fragility of Al and Rob, I believe that Boston needs a third big - exactly, in other words, what they got in Daniel Theis at the deadline last year. Luke plays an important role; but unfortunately he is not a third big on this team.

Daniel is paid a lot for a third big, but getting him was an outstanding pickup that made a real difference for the stretch run. Perhaps they'll do something similar this year - I think it's likely.

As for Kornet, he's a fourth or fifth big, the proverbial "break glass in case of fire" player.

If we carry 5-6 guards and 5-6 bigs, that would mean we would need 3 SFs to give us 14 or 15 total.  Right now we have Tatum and Hauser.  Not sure that Bruno Caboclo is the right guy for that slot but maybe.  To me, this slot is the most in question and the biggest need.

Smart       White       Pritchard
Brown      Brogdon    Thomas(?)
Tatum      Vet (?)       Hauser
Gallinari    Grant       Vonleh(?)
RWill        Horford     Kornet(?)

I can live with that if we actually do find that vet SF.

In my view we will not likely see anything like that. There is always a place for a talented player, but by the same token you've got to pay for talent.

Instead you'll see lots of two-ballhandler and two-big lineups with one wing, as we did routinely last year. I must say I find your idea that Jaylen is a SG and not a SF puzzling; he's a prototypical modern wing. He was often on the floor with two ballhandlers last year - and there will be even more of that this year with Brogdon on board.

These old designations have gotten antiquated and are worse than useless. But the real problem is that fans think you need to fill slots, that you need a "true point guard" and so on.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2022, 10:09:37 AM by Hoopvortex »
'I was proud of Marcus Smart. He did a great job of keeping us together. He might not get credit for this game, but the pace that he played at, and his playcalling, some of the plays that he called were great. We obviously have to rely on him, so I’m definitely looking forward to Marcus leading this team in that role.' - Jaylen Brown, January 2021

Re: The last three roster spots will be determined in training camp
« Reply #61 on: September 04, 2022, 12:05:30 PM »

Offline Big333223

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https://celticswire.usatoday.com/2022/08/26/nba-boston-celtics-welcome-caboclo/

Looks like Caboclo has been officially signed.
I've been focused on Vaonleh as the reclamation project who might pop and fill the backup center spot but maybe it's Bruno.

6'9", athletic, long arms, he seems to have developed a 3P shot. That'd be cool if it was finally his time.

I don't care who it is but this team is going to need a reliable big off the bench with Rob (injuries) and Al (age) presumably missing a lot of time this season.
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Re: The last three roster spots will be determined in training camp
« Reply #62 on: September 13, 2022, 10:26:20 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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With Jake Layman getting a camp deal, we are now up to 18 I believe:

Roster:
Smart, Brown, Tatum, RWill, Horford, Brogdon, White, Grant, Gallinari*, Pritchard, Hauser, Kornet

2-Way:
Davison, Kabengele

Camp (Exhibit-10):
Valentine, Vonleh, Caboclo, Layman

I assume that Gallinari will be given some long term injured status (creating another potential camp roster spot) but I don't recall seeing that being made official yet.  As it stands though, were are at 12 on the regular roster and 18 on the full roster (including 2-way and Camp).

Re: The last three roster spots will be determined in training camp
« Reply #63 on: September 13, 2022, 10:30:23 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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I'm pretty sure that you're including Grant and Gallo with the bigs, but again I think your terminology is too broad, and in particular doesn't account for Grant's uniqueness.

You are right, I consider both Grant and Gallinari to be PFs as their natural position and "bigs" in the more general sense.  I do not consider either to be viable NBA wings.  Many may see that as being old school but that is how I see it.

It is really disappointing to lose Gallinari already.  I felt he was going to fill a useful and important role for us.

Re: The last three roster spots will be determined in training camp
« Reply #64 on: September 13, 2022, 10:33:16 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Keith Smith @KeithSmithNBA
2 hours ago
Reminder: We're going to see a TON of Exhibit 10 signings over the coming weeks. In many cases, a player will be signed and waived shortly thereafter. This is often to gain Affiliate Player rights to get that player to the NBA team's G League squad.

I'd be fine with this for most of our scrubs, like Layman.  If the Maine Celtics prefer him over Matt Ryan, so be it.  But, I don't want to see a lot of the garbage Brad is intrigued by in Boston.  Sign real players.


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Re: The last three roster spots will be determined in training camp
« Reply #65 on: September 13, 2022, 10:37:15 AM »

Offline Celtics2021

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With Jake Layman getting a camp deal, we are now up to 18 I believe:

Roster:
Smart, Brown, Tatum, RWill, Horford, Brogdon, White, Grant, Gallinari*, Pritchard, Hauser, Kornet

2-Way:
Davison, Kabengele

Camp (Exhibit-10):
Valentine, Vonleh, Caboclo, Layman

I assume that Gallinari will be given some long term injured status (creating another potential camp roster spot) but I don't recall seeing that being made official yet.  As it stands though, were are at 12 on the regular roster and 18 on the full roster (including 2-way and Camp).

There’s no extra roster spot that can be created due to Gallo’s injury short of waiving/trading him.  The Celtics can potentially get a tax exception for him, but he still takes up a roster spot (and if he’s traded or waived, they lose that exemption if they haven’t already sued it).

Re: The last three roster spots will be determined in training camp
« Reply #66 on: September 13, 2022, 10:40:47 AM »

Offline Birdman

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I actually like Layman & I expect him to make it
C/PF-Horford, Baynes, Noel, Theis, Morris,
SF/SG- Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Semi, Clark
PG- Irving, Rozier, Larkin

Re: The last three roster spots will be determined in training camp
« Reply #67 on: September 13, 2022, 10:42:33 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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With Jake Layman getting a camp deal, we are now up to 18 I believe:

Roster:
Smart, Brown, Tatum, RWill, Horford, Brogdon, White, Grant, Gallinari*, Pritchard, Hauser, Kornet

2-Way:
Davison, Kabengele

Camp (Exhibit-10):
Valentine, Vonleh, Caboclo, Layman

I assume that Gallinari will be given some long term injured status (creating another potential camp roster spot) but I don't recall seeing that being made official yet.  As it stands though, were are at 12 on the regular roster and 18 on the full roster (including 2-way and Camp).

There’s no extra roster spot that can be created due to Gallo’s injury short of waiving/trading him.  The Celtics can potentially get a tax exception for him, but he still takes up a roster spot (and if he’s traded or waived, they lose that exemption if they haven’t already sued it).

Yeah, I think VG is probably thinking of the hardship exception, but that usually is only granted when a team has several players out with injury.

EDIT:  As Larry Coon describes it:

Quote
A hardship can be deemed to exist when a team has four players who are sick or injured and have missed at least three regular season games, and will continue to be unable to play. If a hardship is granted, the hardship ends when one of the sick or injured players is physically able to resume playing. The team must then release player(s) to get back to the roster limit, although teams have the option to retain the hardship player and release a different player to get back to the limit.


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Re: The last three roster spots will be determined in training camp
« Reply #68 on: September 13, 2022, 11:35:15 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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With Jake Layman getting a camp deal, we are now up to 18 I believe:

Roster:
Smart, Brown, Tatum, RWill, Horford, Brogdon, White, Grant, Gallinari*, Pritchard, Hauser, Kornet

2-Way:
Davison, Kabengele

Camp (Exhibit-10):
Valentine, Vonleh, Caboclo, Layman

I assume that Gallinari will be given some long term injured status (creating another potential camp roster spot) but I don't recall seeing that being made official yet.  As it stands though, were are at 12 on the regular roster and 18 on the full roster (including 2-way and Camp).

There’s no extra roster spot that can be created due to Gallo’s injury short of waiving/trading him.  The Celtics can potentially get a tax exception for him, but he still takes up a roster spot (and if he’s traded or waived, they lose that exemption if they haven’t already sued it).

Thanks for the clarification.

Re: The last three roster spots will be determined in training camp
« Reply #69 on: September 13, 2022, 11:50:03 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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A team may use the Disabled Player Exception to replace a player that suffered a season-ending injury with one player making the lesser of (i) 50% of the disabled player’s current salary or (ii) the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level Salary Exception.  Contracts signed using this exception must be for 1 season, or if the exception is used to acquire a player by trade, that player must be in the final season of his contract. If the replacement player is acquired in a trade, the team is granted another $100,000 in wiggle room to help use this exception. 

I could have done some homework and figured this out but I was mistaken on the roster spot aspect.  We can apply for this Disabled Player Exception for up to half of Gallinari's salary (about $3.24M).  That could be useful.  Something better than the vet min which may be just enough to allow us to sign someone that is otherwise only offered a vet min (up to $2.72M).  We have trade exceptions but since we can't do a sign a trade, this DPE gives us another option.

Quote
If a team is granted this exception and uses it, and the player recovers from the injury, the player can resume playing and there are no consequences for the team’s team salary.

If I am reading this clause correctly, once this DPE is granted, the injured player can come back if they heal faster than expected.  If this is correct, I see no downside to apply for and using this.  If Gallinari is out all year as expected, we get a replacement player and tax relief.  If Gallinari does recover, we add him to the team for the play off run (maybe cut Kornet).  Or we just don't use it and it expires (but I think still get the tax relief).

Re: The last three roster spots will be determined in training camp
« Reply #70 on: September 13, 2022, 12:01:01 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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If Gallinari is out all year as expected, we get a replacement player and tax relief.  If Gallinari does recover, we add him to the team for the play off run (maybe cut Kornet).  Or we just don't use it and it expires (but I think still get the tax relief).

What tax relief are we entitled to?  I think that Gallo's full salary continues to count against the cap and the tax, even if he's out the entire year.  The only way we get a tax break is if Gallo's injury is considered career ending.

Coon:

Quote
There is one exception whereby a player can continue to receive his salary, but the salary is excluded from team salary. This is when a player suffers a career-ending injury or illness. The team must waive the player, and can apply for this salary exclusion following a waiting period. Only the player's team at the time the injury or illness was discovered (or reasonably should have been discovered) can apply for this salary exclusion.

The team can apply to have the player's salary excluded starting on the first anniversary of the player's last regular season or playoff game, and not before the one-year anniversary of the first regular season game for which the player was on the team's roster under his current contract. If the player played in fewer than 10 games in the last season in which he played, the team can apply on the one-year anniversary of the player's last regular season or playoff game, or 60 days after his last game in the current season, whichever is later.

The determination as to whether an injury or illness is career ending is made by a physician jointly selected by the league and players association, or by a Fitness to Play panel (see question number 62). The determination is based on whether the injury or illness will prevent the player from playing for the remainder of his career, or if it is severe enough that continuing to play constitutes a medically unacceptable risk.

If the injury exclusion is granted, the player's salary is removed from the team salary immediately.

Even in that circumstance, we'd be talking about cap relief next year, not for the 2022-23 season.


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Re: The last three roster spots will be determined in training camp
« Reply #71 on: September 13, 2022, 02:01:05 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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OK, thanks for all the clarifications.  I still think being able to offer $3.2M to a free agent instead of $2.6M or whatever is a nice edge to have as some of these remaining vets look to find a home.

For example, why is Hassan Whiteside still out there?  My guess is that he is waiting to see if LAL or BKN offer him something.  He was not that bad last season:

Whiteside      8 pts /  8 rebs / 1.6 Blk in 18 min
Williams       10 pts/ 10 rebs / 2.2 Blk in 30 min

That could be our 48 minutes at center.  What is the problem with Whiteside?  His attitude can't be that bad.  I have to think teams have made offers.

Re: The last three roster spots will be determined in training camp
« Reply #72 on: September 13, 2022, 04:24:27 PM »

Offline Surferdad

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OK, thanks for all the clarifications.  I still think being able to offer $3.2M to a free agent instead of $2.6M or whatever is a nice edge to have as some of these remaining vets look to find a home.

For example, why is Hassan Whiteside still out there?  My guess is that he is waiting to see if LAL or BKN offer him something.  He was not that bad last season:

Whiteside      8 pts /  8 rebs / 1.6 Blk in 18 min
Williams       10 pts/ 10 rebs / 2.2 Blk in 30 min

That could be our 48 minutes at center.  What is the problem with Whiteside?  His attitude can't be that bad.  I have to think teams have made offers.
Right, but need to consider the lux tax implications. Having a Disabled Player Exception allows you to sign, but what happens to the tax?

Re: The last three roster spots will be determined in training camp
« Reply #73 on: September 13, 2022, 04:47:24 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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OK, thanks for all the clarifications.  I still think being able to offer $3.2M to a free agent instead of $2.6M or whatever is a nice edge to have as some of these remaining vets look to find a home.

For example, why is Hassan Whiteside still out there?  My guess is that he is waiting to see if LAL or BKN offer him something.  He was not that bad last season:

Whiteside      8 pts /  8 rebs / 1.6 Blk in 18 min
Williams       10 pts/ 10 rebs / 2.2 Blk in 30 min

That could be our 48 minutes at center.  What is the problem with Whiteside?  His attitude can't be that bad.  I have to think teams have made offers.
Right, but need to consider the lux tax implications. Having a Disabled Player Exception allows you to sign, but what happens to the tax?

Roy and Celtics2021 clarified that we would still owe the tax on Gallinari's salary even if the Celtics received the DPE  for him.  And we would owe tax on the player if we bring one in with the DPE.  But we only have 12 signed players.  We need to sign or trade for 2 or 3 more in any case.  At this point, those would be mostly or all min contracts since that is all we can offer to a FA (min contracts include a tax credit but I believe there is still part of the salary that counts towards the cap).  Or we could trade with TPEs to bring in players (full taxes would apply).  You add some tax in any case so if we can pick up a slightly better FA player with the DPE over a min contract, granted, there is more tax but not significantly at these contract values. 

To me it gives us a slight edge to get the player we want if we are competing with teams that can only offer a vet min contract.  It will depend on how much better of a player and how much more salary/tax but by NBA contract standards, these are still pretty low costs.  I don't see any reason not to at least apply for the disabled player exemption.

Re: The last three roster spots will be determined in training camp
« Reply #74 on: September 13, 2022, 05:19:34 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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No team is going to have a better 5th guard than Pritchard. 

I think you'll see Pritchard in the rotation. Grouping players into a big category, like "guards", tends to obscure their differences, and thus their value in playing a complementary role in a rotation. Even a more modern term like "ballhandlers" isn't specific enough for a player like Pritchard; Ime seldom used him as the lone ballhandler (especially after the all-star break), preferring to pair him mostly with Derrick White, or less often with Marcus. Simply put, what brother Payton brings is unique, uniquely valuable, and perfectly complementary to the other players on the roster, and with a range of different lineups.

He moved up to about 19 minutes/game after the all-star break last season because he got intense with his defense and was recognized for it; but the fact that he shot .473 from 3 and .620 from 2 in a big sample size in that span can't have hurt. Those are spectacular numbers. Like most NBA players, better numbers followed from consistent minutes; but we would have to say both that Ime found a role for him to excel in and that he took full advantage.

He's a conservative but willing and effective playmaker, taking good care of the ball and making good choices at a high tempo (TOV% under 10, AST% over 20). He pushes it up the floor faster than anyone on the roster, except Davison.

In short: he doesn't "slot" behind anyone. He will wind up in all sorts of lineups as a secondary ballhandler. That hardly seems debatable; the more interesting question is if he could appear in 3-ballhandler units, for instance with White and Brogdon.

I think Pritchard's position is combo guard and he will play "behind" Smart, White, and Brogdon.  By "behind" I mean that Smart, White, and to some extent Brogdon are all also combo guards (play the same position) and they will all play more minutes than Pritchard.  They will play in several combinations but Pritchard will play the least (assuming all are healthy).  We may see 3 of these 4 on the court together some but I don't expect much of that.  More 2 of these 4 with either Brown or Tatum plus 2 bigs (Horford and RWill for example).

But I agree with you (and I thought I said this) that Pritchard is a very good player to fill that role.  Smart, White, and Brogdon are all better but Pritchard is plenty good in his own right.  We probably have more combo guard depth than we need.  White could be traded for a wing/SF (for example) and I would be completely comfortable if this resulted in Pritchard getting more minutes.

Last season his minutes ticked up after we traded Schroeder and Richardson leaving us Smart, White, and Pritchard as the combo guards.  Now we have Brogdon added to that so Pritchard will get less minutes.