Author Topic: Donovan Mitchell Idea for September  (Read 2443 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Donovan Mitchell Idea for September
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2022, 10:53:37 PM »

Offline slamtheking

  • NCE
  • Larry Bird
  • *****************************
  • Posts: 29808
  • Tommy Points: 9866
I think this idea was discussed before.  Brown, Tatum and Mitchell sharing the ball wouldn't work IMO. One of them would end up being very unhappy, probably Brown.

Yeah, Mitchell is a volume shooter and doesn't defend...
my thought as well.  keep Brogdon and Grant.  Mitchell is a better scorer but I think Brogdon will be fully capable of fitting in with this defense whereas Mitchell will not

Re: Donovan Mitchell Idea for September
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2022, 08:42:41 AM »

Offline Moranis

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30274
  • Tommy Points: 1404
The trade I had proposed a bit ago was this

Boston - Mitchell, Gay
Cleveland - Smart
Utah - Sexton, Rob, Grant, PP, 1st's (25, 27, 29)

I think that makes a fair amount of sense for all 3 teams.
That's laughably bad for Boston.
That is what a young borderline All NBA player that is signed long term costs.  If Boston was trading Brown in a rebuilding type trade, what would the expected return be?  Would you trade Brown for Smart, Rob, Grant, PP, and 3 1st's?

After that trade Boston would be with a bunch of open roster spots

Starters - Brogdon, Mitchell, Brown, Tatum, Horford
Bench - White, Gay, Gallo, Vonleh, Hauser, Thomas, Kornet, Davison, Kabengele
Projected vet minimum signees - Carmelo, Harrell, Dwight

Boston would have FAR and AWAY the best starting 5 in the sport.  No one would be even close to that.  You add some solid vet minimum ring chasing type players and you are off and running.  And given the age of Mitchell, Brown, and Tatum that team would be at the top of the sport for over 5 years as long as Brown stayed put. 

Go big or watch the Finals on TV over the same time period 
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 08:56:16 AM by Moranis »
I was finally wrong. Boston not only didn't win in 5, but didn't win at all.

Re: Donovan Mitchell Idea for September
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2022, 09:54:26 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8563
  • Tommy Points: 265
The trade I had proposed a bit ago was this

Boston - Mitchell, Gay
Cleveland - Smart
Utah - Sexton, Rob, Grant, PP, 1st's (25, 27, 29)

I think that makes a fair amount of sense for all 3 teams.
That's laughably bad for Boston.
That is what a young borderline All NBA player that is signed long term costs.  If Boston was trading Brown in a rebuilding type trade, what would the expected return be?  Would you trade Brown for Smart, Rob, Grant, PP, and 3 1st's?

After that trade Boston would be with a bunch of open roster spots

Starters - Brogdon, Mitchell, Brown, Tatum, Horford
Bench - White, Gay, Gallo, Vonleh, Hauser, Thomas, Kornet, Davison, Kabengele
Projected vet minimum signees - Carmelo, Harrell, Dwight

Boston would have FAR and AWAY the best starting 5 in the sport.  No one would be even close to that.  You add some solid vet minimum ring chasing type players and you are off and running.  And given the age of Mitchell, Brown, and Tatum that team would be at the top of the sport for over 5 years as long as Brown stayed put. 

Go big or watch the Finals on TV over the same time period
That seems like equal or more value even for Brown. However that is Brown, who is a upper level two way player while Mitchell has defense faults. Would you think the following could get it done,

Smart, White, Grant and three 1st
for
Mitchell and Gay?

I feel Jazz could flip Smart for two 1st picks and a young prospect. So that gives them five 1st rd picks, young player, White and Grant for Mitchell.

Edit add: A team with starters of
Mitchell, JB, JT, Al, TL

And main bench of
Brog, Gay, and Gallo

I like this way more than trading for KD.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 10:14:35 AM by Csfan1984 »

Re: Donovan Mitchell Idea for September
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2022, 10:19:14 AM »

Offline Moranis

  • Bill Russell
  • ******************************
  • Posts: 30274
  • Tommy Points: 1404
The trade I had proposed a bit ago was this

Boston - Mitchell, Gay
Cleveland - Smart
Utah - Sexton, Rob, Grant, PP, 1st's (25, 27, 29)

I think that makes a fair amount of sense for all 3 teams.
That's laughably bad for Boston.
That is what a young borderline All NBA player that is signed long term costs.  If Boston was trading Brown in a rebuilding type trade, what would the expected return be?  Would you trade Brown for Smart, Rob, Grant, PP, and 3 1st's?

After that trade Boston would be with a bunch of open roster spots

Starters - Brogdon, Mitchell, Brown, Tatum, Horford
Bench - White, Gay, Gallo, Vonleh, Hauser, Thomas, Kornet, Davison, Kabengele
Projected vet minimum signees - Carmelo, Harrell, Dwight

Boston would have FAR and AWAY the best starting 5 in the sport.  No one would be even close to that.  You add some solid vet minimum ring chasing type players and you are off and running.  And given the age of Mitchell, Brown, and Tatum that team would be at the top of the sport for over 5 years as long as Brown stayed put. 

Go big or watch the Finals on TV over the same time period
That seems like equal or more value even for Brown. However that is Brown, who is a upper level two way player while Mitchell has defense faults. Would you think the following could get it done,

Smart, White, Grant and three 1st
for
Mitchell and Gay?

I feel Jazz could flip Smart for two 1st picks and a young prospect. So that gives them five 1st rd picks, young player, White and Grant for Mitchell.
I don't think the Jazz do that given they can reportedly get Barrett and 4 1st's from the Knicks right now (the Jazz want more picks or it would be done).  That is why I had Rob in the trade.  I think his value is needed to pass what the Knicks have already reportedly put on the table. 

I just like the Mitchell team more than the current team, assuming it can land some credible vets for the minimum.   I'd be fine with Durant for Brown or a trade like I proposed for Mitchell because it both instances it improves (and fairly significantly) Boston's chances at winning a title, and that really is the bottom line as far as I'm concerned.
I was finally wrong. Boston not only didn't win in 5, but didn't win at all.

Re: Donovan Mitchell Idea for September
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2022, 10:31:02 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8563
  • Tommy Points: 265
The trade I had proposed a bit ago was this

Boston - Mitchell, Gay
Cleveland - Smart
Utah - Sexton, Rob, Grant, PP, 1st's (25, 27, 29)

I think that makes a fair amount of sense for all 3 teams.
That's laughably bad for Boston.
That is what a young borderline All NBA player that is signed long term costs.  If Boston was trading Brown in a rebuilding type trade, what would the expected return be?  Would you trade Brown for Smart, Rob, Grant, PP, and 3 1st's?

After that trade Boston would be with a bunch of open roster spots

Starters - Brogdon, Mitchell, Brown, Tatum, Horford
Bench - White, Gay, Gallo, Vonleh, Hauser, Thomas, Kornet, Davison, Kabengele
Projected vet minimum signees - Carmelo, Harrell, Dwight

Boston would have FAR and AWAY the best starting 5 in the sport.  No one would be even close to that.  You add some solid vet minimum ring chasing type players and you are off and running.  And given the age of Mitchell, Brown, and Tatum that team would be at the top of the sport for over 5 years as long as Brown stayed put. 

Go big or watch the Finals on TV over the same time period
That seems like equal or more value even for Brown. However that is Brown, who is a upper level two way player while Mitchell has defense faults. Would you think the following could get it done,

Smart, White, Grant and three 1st
for
Mitchell and Gay?

I feel Jazz could flip Smart for two 1st picks and a young prospect. So that gives them five 1st rd picks, young player, White and Grant for Mitchell.
I don't think the Jazz do that given they can reportedly get Barrett and 4 1st's from the Knicks right now (the Jazz want more picks or it would be done).  That is why I had Rob in the trade.  I think his value is needed to pass what the Knicks have already reportedly put on the table. 

I just like the Mitchell team more than the current team, assuming it can land some credible vets for the minimum.   I'd be fine with Durant for Brown or a trade like I proposed for Mitchell because it both instances it improves (and fairly significantly) Boston's chances at winning a title, and that really is the bottom line as far as I'm concerned.
If you lose TL and Grant I just don't think you can give up three picks.  I would do your deal if it was a single first and two swap rights. TL, Grant and Smart are all very good playoff team pieces that have tremendous value for contenders.

Re: Donovan Mitchell Idea for September
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2022, 11:20:23 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8338
  • Tommy Points: 604
The trade I had proposed a bit ago was this

Boston - Mitchell, Gay
Cleveland - Smart
Utah - Sexton, Rob, Grant, PP, 1st's (25, 27, 29)

I think that makes a fair amount of sense for all 3 teams.
That's laughably bad for Boston.
That is what a young borderline All NBA player that is signed long term costs.  If Boston was trading Brown in a rebuilding type trade, what would the expected return be?  Would you trade Brown for Smart, Rob, Grant, PP, and 3 1st's?

After that trade Boston would be with a bunch of open roster spots

Starters - Brogdon, Mitchell, Brown, Tatum, Horford
Bench - White, Gay, Gallo, Vonleh, Hauser, Thomas, Kornet, Davison, Kabengele
Projected vet minimum signees - Carmelo, Harrell, Dwight

Boston would have FAR and AWAY the best starting 5 in the sport.  No one would be even close to that.  You add some solid vet minimum ring chasing type players and you are off and running.  And given the age of Mitchell, Brown, and Tatum that team would be at the top of the sport for over 5 years as long as Brown stayed put. 

Go big or watch the Finals on TV over the same time period
That seems like equal or more value even for Brown. However that is Brown, who is a upper level two way player while Mitchell has defense faults. Would you think the following could get it done,

Smart, White, Grant and three 1st
for
Mitchell and Gay?

I feel Jazz could flip Smart for two 1st picks and a young prospect. So that gives them five 1st rd picks, young player, White and Grant for Mitchell.

Edit add: A team with starters of
Mitchell, JB, JT, Al, TL

And main bench of
Brog, Gay, and Gallo

I like this way more than trading for KD.

To me, the issue with trading for Mitchell is that I don't want any version of the trade to result in forcing Tatum to play out of position.  And yes, for me, a core line up that has Tatum playing PF is line up that has Tatum playing out of position.

So the question is if Mitchell can play as a PG or combo guard, or is that resulting in him being out of position.  I don't believe that you need a "pure" point guard these days.  Very few teams have that, and even fewer of the top teams have a traditional PG.  A combo guard in many cases (but not all cases) can take that role as the principle ball handler (remember that applies to both offense and defense).  If we were to trade for Mitchell (who I believe is a terrific player) I would want him to play that role with the top line up, not Brogdon.  So if you don't think he can play that role, don't do the trade.  I think he would probably be fine in that role on this team.

In Utah, Mitchell played the most with Conley so he was not the principle ball handler.  But he played plenty without Conley and in many cases was the principle ball hander.  As compared to say Smart, Mitchell would provide far more scoring but also far less defense and less versatility.  I suspect that he would provide more facilitation of others than Smart, assuming that he took on that mind set.  Mitchell was +112 (1,060 min) with Conley and +164 (1,206 min) without him, so pretty good in both cases.

I don't think we are in very good position to trade for Mitchell in any case.  I guess any trade would start with Smart (or maybe to a 3rd team to get more picks) but we would need to include more than that.  Do we really want to trade both Smart and White?  That doesn't seem so workable for either team.  Smart and RWill plus picks?  That may get it done but do we really want to do that?
« Last Edit: August 19, 2022, 11:42:02 AM by Vermont Green »

Re: Donovan Mitchell Idea for September
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2022, 11:45:46 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8563
  • Tommy Points: 265
The trade I had proposed a bit ago was this

Boston - Mitchell, Gay
Cleveland - Smart
Utah - Sexton, Rob, Grant, PP, 1st's (25, 27, 29)

I think that makes a fair amount of sense for all 3 teams.
That's laughably bad for Boston.
That is what a young borderline All NBA player that is signed long term costs.  If Boston was trading Brown in a rebuilding type trade, what would the expected return be?  Would you trade Brown for Smart, Rob, Grant, PP, and 3 1st's?

After that trade Boston would be with a bunch of open roster spots

Starters - Brogdon, Mitchell, Brown, Tatum, Horford
Bench - White, Gay, Gallo, Vonleh, Hauser, Thomas, Kornet, Davison, Kabengele
Projected vet minimum signees - Carmelo, Harrell, Dwight

Boston would have FAR and AWAY the best starting 5 in the sport.  No one would be even close to that.  You add some solid vet minimum ring chasing type players and you are off and running.  And given the age of Mitchell, Brown, and Tatum that team would be at the top of the sport for over 5 years as long as Brown stayed put. 

Go big or watch the Finals on TV over the same time period
That seems like equal or more value even for Brown. However that is Brown, who is a upper level two way player while Mitchell has defense faults. Would you think the following could get it done,

Smart, White, Grant and three 1st
for
Mitchell and Gay?

I feel Jazz could flip Smart for two 1st picks and a young prospect. So that gives them five 1st rd picks, young player, White and Grant for Mitchell.

Edit add: A team with starters of
Mitchell, JB, JT, Al, TL

And main bench of
Brog, Gay, and Gallo

I like this way more than trading for KD.

To me, the issue with trading for Mitchell is that I don't want any version of the trade to result in forcing Tatum to play out of position.  And yes, for me, a core line up that has Tatum playing PF is line up that has Tatum playing out of position.

So the question is if Mitchell can play as a PG or combo guard, or is that resulting in him being out of position.  I don't believe that you need a "pure" point guard these days.  Very few teams have that, and even fewer of the top teams have a traditional PG.  A combo guard in many cases (but not all cases) can take that role as the principle ball handler (remember that applies to both offense and defense).  If we were to trade for Mitchell (who I believe is a terrific player) I would want him to play that role with the top line up, not Brogdon.  So if you don't think he can play that role, don't do the trade.  I think he would probably be fine in that role on this team.

In Utah, Mitchell played the most with Conley so he was not the principle ball handler.  But he played plenty without Conley and in many cases was the principle ball hander.  As compared to say Smart, Mitchell would provide far more scoring but also far less defense and less versatility.  I suspect that he would provide more facilitation of others than Smart, assuming that he took on that mind set.  Mitchell was +112 (1,060 min) with Conley and +164 (1,206 min) without him, so pretty good in both cases.

I don't think we are in very good position to trade for Mitchell in any case.  I guess any trade would start with Smart (or maybe to a 3rd team to get more picks) but we would need to include more than that.  Do we really want to trade both Smart and White?  That doesn't seem to workable for either team.  Smart and RWill plus picks?  That may get it done but do we really want to do that?
I definitely think Mitchell has to play PG if traded here. His passing, driving, shooting and defense is better when against smaller defenders.

I'd be okay if it was Mitchell for Smart, TL, two first and the final swap rights in same Spurs swap year. That leaves you with relying on Vonleh as back up center though in lineup. You can start Gallo or Grant to keep Tatum at SF. Example,

Starters
Mitchell, JB, JT, Gallo, Al

Main Bench
Brog, Grant, Vonleh

I'd try to sign Lamb or Melo to add a wing to the bench.

Re: Donovan Mitchell Idea for September
« Reply #22 on: August 19, 2022, 11:59:30 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8338
  • Tommy Points: 604
I definitely think Mitchell has to play PG if traded here. His passing, driving, shooting and defense is better when against smaller defenders.

I'd be okay if it was Mitchell for Smart, TL, two first and the final swap rights in same Spurs swap year. That leaves you with relying on Vonleh as back up center though in lineup. You can start Gallo or Grant to keep Tatum at SF. Example,

Starters
Mitchell, JB, JT, Gallo, Al

Main Bench
Brog, Grant, Vonleh

I'd try to sign Lamb or Melo to add a wing to the bench.

I agree with you on Mitchell playing that lead ball handler combo/PG role (whatever people want to call it).  And I think Mitchell is a terrific player.  Otherworldly quickness.  Top end scoring touch.  And I think his defense would be more than adequate.  I am just not sure I want to change two starters from a team that made it to the finals so I am lukewarm on this idea at best.

If this trade were to happen, I would definitely not hate it but I would be nervous about team cohesiveness.  At best, it would take some time to develop that.  At worst, it doesn't develop.  So there is a risk, a risk we really don't need to take.

Re: Donovan Mitchell Idea for September
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2022, 12:14:37 PM »

Offline Csfan1984

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8563
  • Tommy Points: 265
I definitely think Mitchell has to play PG if traded here. His passing, driving, shooting and defense is better when against smaller defenders.

I'd be okay if it was Mitchell for Smart, TL, two first and the final swap rights in same Spurs swap year. That leaves you with relying on Vonleh as back up center though in lineup. You can start Gallo or Grant to keep Tatum at SF. Example,

Starters
Mitchell, JB, JT, Gallo, Al

Main Bench
Brog, Grant, Vonleh

I'd try to sign Lamb or Melo to add a wing to the bench.

I agree with you on Mitchell playing that lead ball handler combo/PG role (whatever people want to call it).  And I think Mitchell is a terrific player.  Otherworldly quickness.  Top end scoring touch.  And I think his defense would be more than adequate.  I am just not sure I want to change two starters from a team that made it to the finals so I am lukewarm on this idea at best.

If this trade were to happen, I would definitely not hate it but I would be nervous about team cohesiveness.  At best, it would take some time to develop that.  At worst, it doesn't develop.  So there is a risk, a risk we really don't need to take.
Definitely a lot of risk but far less than KD for Brown. Getting Mitchell fits a long window for competing. Not sure Jazz even do it. Jazz would probably prefer Al and ten 1st right now but that's impossible to gather I think.

Re: Donovan Mitchell Idea for September
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2022, 12:19:54 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8338
  • Tommy Points: 604
I definitely think Mitchell has to play PG if traded here. His passing, driving, shooting and defense is better when against smaller defenders.

I'd be okay if it was Mitchell for Smart, TL, two first and the final swap rights in same Spurs swap year. That leaves you with relying on Vonleh as back up center though in lineup. You can start Gallo or Grant to keep Tatum at SF. Example,

Starters
Mitchell, JB, JT, Gallo, Al

Main Bench
Brog, Grant, Vonleh

I'd try to sign Lamb or Melo to add a wing to the bench.

I agree with you on Mitchell playing that lead ball handler combo/PG role (whatever people want to call it).  And I think Mitchell is a terrific player.  Otherworldly quickness.  Top end scoring touch.  And I think his defense would be more than adequate.  I am just not sure I want to change two starters from a team that made it to the finals so I am lukewarm on this idea at best.

If this trade were to happen, I would definitely not hate it but I would be nervous about team cohesiveness.  At best, it would take some time to develop that.  At worst, it doesn't develop.  So there is a risk, a risk we really don't need to take.
Definitely a lot of risk but far less than KD for Brown. Getting Mitchell fits a long window for competing. Not sure Jazz even do it. Jazz would probably prefer Al and ten 1st right now but that's impossible to gather I think.

Yeah, I agree, if I am lukewarm on Mitchell, I am definitely cold on Durant, based on what it would likely take to get Durant (Brown and Smart plus Picks?).

Re: Donovan Mitchell Idea for September
« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2022, 02:44:49 PM »

Offline Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 53030
  • Tommy Points: -25962
  • Once A CrotoNat, Always A CrotoNat
I'm not sure if we've got a general Donovan Mitchell thread around here, so I'll use this one.

Shams:

Quote
New York made a recent offer of Evan Fournier, Obi Toppin, additional salary and two unprotected first-round draft picks (five total), league sources tell me and The Athletic’s Tony Jones. The Jazz’s asking price has been more significant than that.

Only two unprotected picks and no prospects / good young players?  That's a bit of a garbage offer.  I hope the Jazz move him elsewhere.


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: Donovan Mitchell Idea for September
« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2022, 03:11:00 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8338
  • Tommy Points: 604
I'm not sure if we've got a general Donovan Mitchell thread around here, so I'll use this one.

Shams:

Quote
New York made a recent offer of Evan Fournier, Obi Toppin, additional salary and two unprotected first-round draft picks (five total), league sources tell me and The Athletic’s Tony Jones. The Jazz’s asking price has been more significant than that.

Only two unprotected picks and no prospects / good young players?  That's a bit of a garbage offer.  I hope the Jazz move him elsewhere.

I am a little confused by the wording.  Are they saying 5 total first round picks but only two fully unprotected (I assume meaning the other 3 with protections)?  If that is correct, this is not a terrible offer.  It depends a lot on the protections but assume they are say top 5 or top 10 protected (different if they are top 20 protected or some other crazy thing).  Toppin is a useful young player (but no RJ Barrett).  Fournier is probably "flippable" for more picks.  I suspect that UTA wants Barrett.

If this offer is really on the table, I think they are close enough that something will get done.  If they want Barrett included, maybe the protections stay heavy.  No Barrett, probably need to lighten up on the protections.


Re: Donovan Mitchell Idea for September
« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2022, 03:20:58 PM »

Offline Celtics2021

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4906
  • Tommy Points: 420
I'm not sure if we've got a general Donovan Mitchell thread around here, so I'll use this one.

Shams:

Quote
New York made a recent offer of Evan Fournier, Obi Toppin, additional salary and two unprotected first-round draft picks (five total), league sources tell me and The Athletic’s Tony Jones. The Jazz’s asking price has been more significant than that.

Only two unprotected picks and no prospects / good young players?  That's a bit of a garbage offer.  I hope the Jazz move him elsewhere.

I am a little confused by the wording.  Are they saying 5 total first round picks but only two fully unprotected (I assume meaning the other 3 with protections)?  If that is correct, this is not a terrible offer.  It depends a lot on the protections but assume they are say top 5 or top 10 protected (different if they are top 20 protected or some other crazy thing).  Toppin is a useful young player (but no RJ Barrett).  Fournier is probably "flippable" for more picks.  I suspect that UTA wants Barrett.

If this offer is really on the table, I think they are close enough that something will get done.  If they want Barrett included, maybe the protections stay heavy.  No Barrett, probably need to lighten up on the protections.

It’s not a terrible offer, but in no way is Fournier flippable for more picks.  The Celtics turned down Fournier for nothing.

Re: Donovan Mitchell Idea for September
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2022, 06:00:01 AM »

Offline Csfan1984

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8563
  • Tommy Points: 265
Knicks should be patient. I felt Barrett and Quickly showed growth. Now I do understand Brunson because they had the cap space. That's just an investment that you can flip later if need be. Still they should be a youth team and selling off the older pieces for higher potential prospects. They aren't ready to compete to be going all in on Mitchell.

If Knicks saved the Brunson cap space and were going to sign an All star to pair with Mitchell I would say go for Mitchell but this isn't the case.

Re: Donovan Mitchell Idea for September
« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2022, 07:54:49 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

  • Don Nelson
  • ********
  • Posts: 8338
  • Tommy Points: 604
I am not sure how that Knicks team would work if a trade like this were to happen.  Brunson is 6'-1", Mitchell is 6'-1", Quickley is 6'-3".  That is a pretty small back court rotation.  And I assume Brunson and Mitchell both start so that pushes Barrett to SF (or Fournier if Barrett is traded).  That ends up being a really small team.